When a MS67 Red wheat cent turns brown what is its grade?
SmallEagle
Posts: 736
PCGS has certified 10,098 wheat cents as MS67 Red. They have certified zero coins as MS67 brown. I have read several posters say the eventual fate of copper coins is to turn brown. Since PCGS has currently never seen a brown MS67 does this mean that coins that are currently graded as MS67 Red will eventually likely be seen as both Brown and at a lower numerical grade?
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<< <i>PCGS has certified 10,098 wheat cents as MS67 Red. They have certified zero coins as MS67 brown. I have read several posters say the eventual fate of copper coins is to turn brown. Since PCGS has currently never seen a brown MS67 does this mean that coins that are currently graded as MS67 Red will eventually likely be seen as both Brown and at a lower numerical grade? >>
Odds are excellent that the answer to your question is yes. If a "RD" coin turns "BN", it will also almost certainly negatively impact the numerical grade. However, while a lot of "RD" coins turn to "RB", on a percentage basis, very few turn to "BN", at least during our collecting lives.
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<< <i>PCGS has certified 10,098 wheat cents as MS67 Red. They have certified zero coins as MS67 brown. I have read several posters say the eventual fate of copper coins is to turn brown. Since PCGS has currently never seen a brown MS67 does this mean that coins that are currently graded as MS67 Red will eventually likely be seen as both Brown and at a lower numerical grade? >>
Odds are excellent that the answer to your question is yes. If a "RD" coin turns "BN", it will also almost certainly negatively impact the numerical grade. However, while a lot of "RD" coins turn to "RB", on a percentage basis, very few turn to "BN", at least during our collecting lives. >>
Let me see if I follow the logic of this correctly. If a "RD" coin turns "BN", and will negatively impact the numerical grade, then all existing 66 BNs were once 67 or 68 RDs? I, for one, think that there is a bias when grading copper, and that's why there has never been an MS 67 BN graded in the Lincoln series by PCGS. Just my humble opinion.
<< <i>Trick question?? 67BN. >>
What he said.
<< <i>Trick question?? 67BN. >>
You're saying that while over 10,000 wheat cents have the technical merits to be graded 67 Red there have been no coins in 100 years that have the same technical merits but have turned brown? If there had and you are correct wouldn't there be a few 67 Browns out there?
Who is John Galt?
Lincoln set Colorless Set
<< <i>A 'naturally' toned BN coin will have diminished luster compared to a red coin, therefore it should grade lower. >>
Based on the population of MS67 "BN" examples, that, or a similar line of thinking seems to be PCGS's stance. A "BN" copper coin, even if as otherwise perfect as a "RD" one, isn't awarded the 67 grade that the "RD" one is.
It was clearly not a trick question.
Since I am not a copper coin collecting specialist, for me the answer is simple: MS-67 Brown
Stuart
Collect 18th & 19th Century US Type Coins, Silver Dollars, $20 Gold Double Eagles and World Crowns & Talers with High Eye Appeal
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<< <i>PCGS has certified 10,098 wheat cents as MS67 Red. They have certified zero coins as MS67 brown. I have read several posters say the eventual fate of copper coins is to turn brown. Since PCGS has currently never seen a brown MS67 does this mean that coins that are currently graded as MS67 Red will eventually likely be seen as both Brown and at a lower numerical grade? >>
Odds are excellent that the answer to your question is yes. If a "RD" coin turns "BN", it will also almost certainly negatively impact the numerical grade. However, while a lot of "RD" coins turn to "RB", on a percentage basis, very few turn to "BN", at least during our collecting lives. >>
This illustrates the double standard when it comes to copper coins. If a silver coin tones, chances are if the toning is attractive, the coin will still be an MS-67. If a copper coin tones completely brown, it will have a hard time getting an MS-66. The grading for copper coins is MUCH tougher than it is for silver and gold for that matter.
<< <i>A 'naturally' toned BN coin will have diminished luster compared to a red coin, therefore it should grade lower. >>
So then, the standard for BN graded coins are set by RD graded coins? I have seen PCGS graded 66BN copper that would rival the eye appeal of many 67 RDs. IMHO, there are BN coins that deserve merit (67BN) when compared to the general population of BN coins. Same goes for RB coins. RDs compared to RDs, RBs compared to RBs and BNs to BNs.
Not necessarily. I can't comment re Lincoln Cents, but I've seen BN Braided Hair Large Cents in MS 65 and MS 66 that had such attractive luster, to me, they had better eye appeal than some RDs in that series in these grades. These BN coins (have one myself) have glistening luster and an even color. The RDs, however, were somewhat mellowed, had uneven color, and imo were borderline for the color specification.
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<< <i>Would the coin not progress threw RB in route to BR?
It would if the process is occurring naturally. Coins that have been "enhanced through chemistry" can change very rapidly, and have on more than few occasions gone completely bad.
On the topic of brown copper not getting its due when it comes to grading, here is an example. This Hard Times token has blazing mint bloom under the brown toning. I've owned this token for five years. It has not changed one bit which indicates that it is very stable. NGC only give this piece an MS-64, Brown. I've seen MS-66 graded large cents that were not as nice or lustrous. In the insane world of copper pricing a dullish red piece is worth more than this token. Go figure.
<< <i>PCGS has certified 10,098 wheat cents as MS67 Red. They have certified zero coins as MS67 brown. >>
I feel it would be a MS67RB, as it doesn't turn to BN instantly... how many RB's in 67 has PCGS graded
<< <i>So when my 69RD or 70RD Lincolns purchased/slabbed after 1/1/10 eventually turn RB or BN, will PCGS still guarantee the GRADE of 69 or 70, even though it's clear they will no longer guarantee COLOR??? >>
......new label, collateral damage, no guarantee.
<< <i>If you leave it in the holder it's still a 67. >>
How about if you leave it in its holder but sell it after 1/10?
& Grading is subjective.
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My guess is that no one has asked PCGS to downgrade their ms67 red coins:-)