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PCGS results in... what should I do?
JustinWaine
Posts: 9
I just started collecting some classic commemorative coins and I purchased four of them on ebay. I paid some extra money for the Gettysburg and Antietam commemoratives because I love their design. I also bought a Grant and Stone Mountain. I then decided to join the PCGS collector's club and I sent those four coins in to be slabbed. My results came back today:
Line # Item # Cert # PCGS No. CoinDate Denomination Variety Country Grade
1 1 15294198 9229 1937 50C Antietam US Genuine (92 - Cleaned)
2 1 15294199 9305 1936 50C Gettysburg US Genuine (94 - Altered Surface)
3 1 15294200 9306 1922 50C Grant US Genuine (92 - Cleaned)
4 1 15294201 9378 1925 50C Stone Mountain US Genuine (92 - Cleaned)
I am very disappointed and I have no idea what to do from here. I'm most upset about the Gettysburg and Antietam because they were $480 and $730 respectively. Both the sellers said nothing about the coin being cleaned/altered and even advertised them as MS 64/65, and even 65+. I did send an email to both sellers but realistically what can I do? Of course I already left them both positive feedback after I had received the coins. Obviously I don't have the coins back from PCGS and I didn't spend all that money to have them be cleaned/altered. Any suggestions would be appreciated.
Line # Item # Cert # PCGS No. CoinDate Denomination Variety Country Grade
1 1 15294198 9229 1937 50C Antietam US Genuine (92 - Cleaned)
2 1 15294199 9305 1936 50C Gettysburg US Genuine (94 - Altered Surface)
3 1 15294200 9306 1922 50C Grant US Genuine (92 - Cleaned)
4 1 15294201 9378 1925 50C Stone Mountain US Genuine (92 - Cleaned)
I am very disappointed and I have no idea what to do from here. I'm most upset about the Gettysburg and Antietam because they were $480 and $730 respectively. Both the sellers said nothing about the coin being cleaned/altered and even advertised them as MS 64/65, and even 65+. I did send an email to both sellers but realistically what can I do? Of course I already left them both positive feedback after I had received the coins. Obviously I don't have the coins back from PCGS and I didn't spend all that money to have them be cleaned/altered. Any suggestions would be appreciated.
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Comments
How much time has passed since you purchased the coins?
The name is LEE!
1. You really can't do anything.
2. The coin market is full of sharks. Don't buy raw coins from people you don't know, especially high valued ones.
3. In such situations, it is better to just buy the coins certified.
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
<< <i>1. You really can't do anything.
2. The coin market is full of sharks. Don't buy raw coins from people you don't know, especially high valued ones.
3. In such situations, it is better to just buy the coins certified. >>
An expensive raw coin on eBay is raw for a reason. I suppose this isn't true 100% of time, but it's true the vast majority of the time. I'm sorry this happened to you, but at least you've learned a good lesson. Not really sure what else to tell you without seeing the coins. Perhaps send them to ANACS as they're sometimes a bit more lenient...if you could get them into holders they'd be easier to sell....
WS
1. I purchased them about 30 days ago.
2. I don't mind if you are unpleasant or scathing, I just want to know what (if anything) I can do.
3. From now on I am just buying certified commemoratives.
4. I still like the coins, but just knowing that they are cleaned makes me not want them in the slightest.
Thanks for the feedback so far.
<< <i>To answer a few of the questions:
4. I still like the coins, but just knowing that they are cleaned makes me not want them in the slightest.
Thanks for the feedback so far. >>
I'm confused by the statement in "4."
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4. I still like the look of the coins, but just knowing that they are cleaned makes me not want them at all.
<< <i>Put them up for auction on ebay and hopefully you can get some of your money back. Of course you'll have to crack them out . >>
I do not agree with this practice whatsoever, unless the problems are clearly noted in the description.
Another thing you could (should) have done is posted the coins here for our opinions. Cleaned coins are easy to spot with a trained eye, and we could have told you before you wasted submission costs on them.
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<< <i>Put them up for auction on ebay and hopefully you can get some of your money back. Of course you'll have to crack them out . Lesson learned the hard way. It happens to all of us at one time or another. >>
As painful as it may be, if you do put them on eBay - and assuming they are in PCGS genuine holders now - I would not crack them out. You would be a straight up seller and you might even get more money for them than if you sold them raw.
(Just think of city streets clogged with a hundred thousand horses each generating 15 lbs of manure every day...)
<< <i>3. From now on I am just buying certified commemoratives. >>
While that's certainly better, I'd consider holding off on purchasing until you get a better idea of what to look for. Even holdered coins can be dogs. Certification helps, but a coin in a holder is by no means an indication that the coin is nice.
<< <i>4. I still like the coins, but just knowing that they are cleaned makes me not want them in the slightest. >>
Either you like them or you don't. Now, it may well be that you liked the look of the coins when you thought everything was on the up and up, but if you really liked the coins, PCGS's opinion wouldn't be the be all end all. There are plenty of dipped and unoriginal coins in all of the reputable holders (which in my opinion are just barely above "cleaned"), and if your decision to like/not like a coin is based on their opinion, I'd say you have some learning to do. Learn what defines a truly nice coin, and then the grading services won't really matter in forming your opinion (although they'll probably agree with you).
I understand this statement completely. I agree with all the advice given so far.
When I first joined the forum, I had the same experience except that I didn't get to the submission stage. I sold that coin for about 1/2 what I'd paid and was glad to get rid of it. In your case, it's more money, so I'm not sure that I'd feel the same way in your case.
I don't know, but outing the sellers might be helpful to the forum members who might know them. Sellers can come up with all kinds of excuses and bogus reasons for selling bad coins, but sometimes peer pressure can make them do the right thing. It's especially egregious if they knew what they were selling, and the odds are that they did know.
I do know that I will not make that mistake again. Sorry for your grief.
I knew it would happen.
Lessons learned with hard earned money, usually stay with you forever. All you can do now is to ask if the sellers will accept a refund on these coins. If not, you might want to sell them in the holder at a substantial loss, or you could crack them and sell them as is. If you want to keep them because you like the coins, that's great too.
Most here will tell you with patience and hard shopping you could have bought these coins in the TPG holder at the same price or less. I purchased a NCG 65 Antietam for quite a bit less than your eBay deal at a coin show after some negotiating, but I had passed on the same coin and seller at another show 4 months earlier. There are always more coins out there, so passing can be a plus also.
Sorry to hear about your eBay stiffing, but like Barndog stated
"
<< <i>If you want PCGS-holdered commems, buy them already holdered. >>
"
First, there are good coins out there, reputible dealers can be located, and there are ways of buying nice coins you like that you will be happy with. Generally coins on ebay are a crap-shoot and you are far better off getting a mentor to help you before you spend any more money on coins. There is a saying, "buy the book before the coin" which means the money you spend on a book to do a little research and education generally pays off big dividends in the long run . It could be that you are wealthy enough to lose thousands of dollars of value buying coins like you have, but I suspect this experience leaves you feeling somewhat foolish and taken advantage of. If the latter, then by all means, start learning more about coins.
You can enjoy the great hobby of coin collecting in many ways and you may not know where it will take you eventually. Others can give you advice, but you need to choose how you want to collect.
You seem to have started with an affinity for US Commemorative coins, and collecting such coins can be fun and rewarding. Most of us would like to buy the best examples we can so that whatever money we spend on them has a chance of being recovered when we would chose to sell them. Buying raw or uncertified coins is tricky for a newbie, because there are many sellers out there that will misrepresent what they are selling or sell for amounts well in excess of what most of us think is a "reasonable" price for the coin. You need also to be wary of telemarketers, some dealers that sell overgraded and cleaned coins, and other undesirable situations.
If you look through these message boards and ask pertinent questions, you will find that most of us would love to help someone else get into this great hobby without having to go through the experience you have had. Remember, there is NO Santa Claus in numismatics. If it seems to be too good to be true, you can bet that it is.
<< <i>if you still like the coins, crack them out of the holders and keep them in an album or 2x2 holders. If you want PCGS-holdered commems, buy them already holdered. >>
My best advise would be this.
EBay is close to a den of snakes. Not every Ebay dealer is a crook, but enough of them are to make bidding on raw coins when you don't know the dealer a super risk.
I would advise you to purchase certified coins at shows in person where you can see what you are buying. Establishing a good relationship with an honest dealer can do great things for you too. You might think you are paying more, but in the long run avoiding a duplication of your current experience make paying a bit more worth it.
One more thing about the "old" commemorative half dollars. The vast majority of the really nice ones have been certified. Many of the pieces that are now raw are raw for a reason. The reason is that they have problems like the coins you purchased.
<< <i>I think that you need a collecting mentor, someone who you can meet at shows, show your coins, explain why they are "problem" coins, and help you make better decisions in the future. For the time being, until you know what you are doing (and maybe even thereafter), you should not buy rare coins sight unseen on ebay or anywhere else, lest you repeat your unpleasant experience. >>
This is excellent advice. I've been collecting for close to 10yrs and I can say that the more I learn, the more I realize how much I don't know. I would honestly welcome a mentor...
To answer the OP's question directly, If you don't want the coins, sell them with full disclosure and consider your loss (if any) stupid tax.
"A car is a tool that takes you from one place to another. Everything beyond that is a payment for other people's perception of you."
<< <i>I just received a reply from the seller that sold me the Gettysburg coin saying that he will refund my money. Very nice. So now all I need is for PCGS to send it back hopefully soon. >>
Good for you...and good for the seller.
<< <i>I just received a reply from the seller that sold me the Gettysburg coin saying that he will refund my money. Very nice. So now all I need is for PCGS to send it back hopefully soon. >>
Great! You've obviously informed the sellers of these results or the seller is a forum member.
At any rate, this is the only place to start.
As an aside, just because PCGS slabbed the coins as Cleaned and/or Altered Surfaces does not necessarily mean that they are in fact cleaned and/or altered surfaces. Many forum members have resubmitted body bagged coins that were supposed cleaned only to have them grade. One fellow on another forum submitted a 1983 No S Roosevelt which came straight out of a Proof Set only to have it grade genuine because someone thought it was "bent"?
As to whether or not you want to pursue that avenue, is totally up to you but grading is a professional opinion and opinions can and sometimes do change.
The name is LEE!
Wow!
Like you, I love these desings and am likely to buy these particular commens myself.
However, it seems as though your, in a spot and I don't know what else you can do. Although, it's NO CONSOLATION now, we all have learned expensive lessons along the way. If possible, keep you chin up. Stay with it...... it'll pay off in the long run.
Becoming a forum member here is a great first step in the right direction. Ask advice, and read as much as you can. These guys (and gals) are great.
John
WTB: Barber Quarters XF
<< <i>
<< <i>if you still like the coins, crack them out of the holders and keep them in an album or 2x2 holders. If you want PCGS-holdered commems, buy them already holdered. >>
My best advise would be this. >>
Plus 1 for that
Also look at hundreds of the type of coin you are interested in collecting. It is very tempting to buy raw coins as they often sell for a decent % off of one already in a PCGS holder. But you must teach yourself what could or can make it in a holder before being able to reap the rewards of the discount of raw coins. If you don't know how to play the game it is almost always cheaper to pay extra for the copy already in a PCGS slab then to take repeated lumps.
As for your real question what can you do. Slap an immediate charge back with PayPal and your credit card. Use the term "Maliciously & deceptively altered" instead of cleaned. Contact the ANA or PNG if they are members.
when you get these coins back, look at them close so you can see where the cleaning/altered surface is
if you can't detect it, try to post pics here or take to a local coin shop to have them show you where
(you might want to buy a loupe if you don't have one)
what should you do?
learn how to detect problem coins -
so you can detect some before you even bid
or if you got it and don't like it, send it back
don't buy from places you can't send back until you get much better
just be glad you found out now rather than after you (over)spent thousands on a collection
that is worth only pennies on the purchase dollar
if you are going to spend over $$ (you put in the dollar amount) have it already certified by the big 4
go to shows, talk to dealers, look at Heritage/Teletrade/.... auction lots and see if yoiu can notice problem on their genuine/problem coins
be glad you noticed now rather than in ...... years when you start looking at selling your collection
2) Be able to distinguish between a coin which is low end for the grade, mid-grade, high end for the grade, and high end for the grade with upgrade potential.
3) Most people, including many dealers, don't pay attention to 1) and 2).
4) There are no bargains in numismatics.
5) Just because a dealer prices a coin high and tells you it's nice for the grade doesn't mean this is true.
6) Imo, there are a disturbing number of fundamentally dishonest people in coin collecting, however, there are also some really outstanding invididuals. Be wary until you can figure out the guys in the white hats from those in the black hats.
7) Unless you're very good at grading early copper, avoid raw coins. Period.
8) Avoid problem coins. Sometimes they are slabbed. Know how to identify them.
9) Be prepared to pay more than expected for a really nice for the grade scarce coin, but have a price range you deem to be acceptable in mind beforehand. Caveat - See items 2) and 5) above.
How do you acquire these skills?
a) Get books re the series that interest you and how to grade them.
b) Go to shows and see as many of these coins as possible.
c) The mentoring idea is good. This helped me tremendously.
d) Don't buy a coin unless someone who has a better eye than you -- someone you trust -- looks at a coin and gives it his / her blessing.
What else I do:
i) Avoid E-bay, Teletrade, etc. These venues aren't worth my time for what I collect.
ii) Try to only deal with people I trust or get a thumbs up about them from someone I trust.
iii) I am not in a hurry to buy anything. I've walked out of shows with plenty of money to spend and didn't spend anything because I saw nothing which was up to my specs. I've been looking on and off the a Heraldic Eagle Bust $ in AU 50-53 for nine years, and haven't found one yet. I'm not going to buy a p.o.s. coin just to fill a hole in my type set.
Caveat emptor
"Seu cabra da peste,
"Sou Mangueira......."
You will receive salient advice from the Board members here. Here are some quick thoughts...
--Consider your experience as part of your education. It happens to all of us. If you never make a mistake you will likely never learn anything.
--Don't get upset. It happened to most of us in the beginning.
--Join the ANA (www.money.org).
--Check out books from the ANA library (no cost except postage and insurance).
--Consider ANA educational programs, such as convention seminars or Summer Seminar.
--Don't get discouraged.
--Keep the coins and use them to learn, learn, learn.
--For now, buy coins certified by PCGS, NGC, or ANACS.
--Learn how to grade coins. Ask experienced collectors and knowledgeable dealers lots of questions.
--Remember that in numismatics, with rare exception, you get what you pay for when buying coins.
--Don't believe whatever your are told...trust, but verify what you hear.
--Numismatics is supposed to be a fun hobby.
Lane
Edited to add...Oh yeah, welcome to the Boards!
See http://www.doubledimes.com for a free online reference for US twenty-cent pieces
<< <i>The best thing you can do is to actively educate yourself about numismatics so that this never happens to you again. That will take time and dedication, but if this is a long-term hobby for you then it will be worth every ounce of effort. As for the coins, my guess is that you are beyond the return period for them and short of filing a significantly not as described claim through PayPal, which might or might not have merit, you are at the mercy of the sellers. >>
<< <i>I think that you need a collecting mentor, someone who you can meet at shows, show your coins, explain why they are "problem" coins, and help you make better decisions in the future. For the time being, until you know what you are doing (and maybe even thereafter), you should not buy rare coins sight unseen on ebay or anywhere else, lest you repeat your unpleasant experience. >>
Now that you know the coins are cleaned/altered, when you get them back look at them side by side with some graded coins of the same type if possible and see if you can spot the tell-tale signs of the cleaning, that is one of the best ways to educate yourself so this doesn't happen in the future.
We all have had this happen to us at some time or another.
When you get the coins back look at them and figure out why they graded as they did and then remember the look that the coins have. This is a tough education for you but if you stay in the hobby the education could or will be worth your disappointment at this time. Buy a PCGS slabbed Stone Mountain, the cheapest I believe, and compare it to the coins you get back. I said PCGS because that is who you chose in the first place.
TomB had great advice also.
Ken
<< <i>Can you provide links to the auctions so we can see the pics provided by the seller(s)? >>
Yes, please do. It will be educational to those of us who "read" images on ebay auctions for problems and hairlines.
Also, study the coins carefully under a halogen lamp -- most likely the coins had hairline scratches from being cleaned, and may have "mellowed" over the years to look OK at a quick glance. That way, you will know what to look for in the future, and be able to detect problems while you still have a chance to return the coins.
<< <i>
<< <i>Can you provide links to the auctions so we can see the pics provided by the seller(s)? >>
Yes, please do. It will be educational to those of us who "read" images on ebay auctions for problems and hairlines. >>
I'm willing to bet a substantial amount that I know who one of the sellers is even before the link is posted.
Sean Reynolds
"Keep in mind that most of what passes as numismatic information is no more than tested opinion at best, and marketing blather at worst. However, I try to choose my words carefully, since I know that you guys are always watching." - Joe O'Connor
I often say it is easier to get a cleaned coin into a PCGS holder than a toned coin.
not exactly the topic but related
<< <i>It should say:
4. I still like the look of the coins, but just knowing that they are cleaned makes me not want them at all. >>
Why? They are the same coin you liked before PCGS gave their opinion? Just in case you didn't know there are tons of cleaned/altered coins in PCGS/NGC slabs that are deemed market acceptable or net grade without saying so. You should decide what is acceptable to you.
<< <i>The age of raw coins is over. Buy only certified coins ... but do so only after you have become a skilled grader. >>
and are familiar with fake holders.
Here is the pictures of two out of the four coins in question. I know many of you may know exactly who sold them, but please keep in mind that so far all of the sellers have been kind and helpful.
Thanks again for all the feedback so far.
<< <i>An update: the seller of the Grant commemorative has agreed to refund as well.
Here is the pictures of two out of the four coins in question. I know many of you may know exactly who sold them, but please keep in mind that so far all of the sellers have been kind and helpful.
Thanks again for all the feedback so far. >>
Wow, it looks like it got cleaned with Asphalt. Looking at the other pictures I bet I know who that seller is too.
Sounds like things might work out for you afterall, good for you.