Old Green Holder Myth true?

HKstrongside · November 20, 2009 3:47AM

UPDATED WITH PHOTOS
Update --- I have bought the coin. I felt it was a good deal as is. What do you guys think? MS61 as is, or do you think it would grade higher/lower if I sent it in for a regrade?

Original post --------------------------------
So, I have been looking at a $5 Liberty that is slabbed in an OGH as ms61. Is it true that generally coins in those OGH are graded higher on a regrade? The price is good as is, but if if this is true that it will regrade higher, even one point, that coin is much more attractive to me. You guys are the wizards, please tell me what you think about this.
Thanks in advance!

Bochiman · November 20, 2009 3:49AM

Look at the coin and decide what you think it should grade.
Many OGHs that were upgrade candidates have already been cracked out and regraded. If you have already thought of that, then you have to ask why this one wasn't.
Was it because it really is a MS61?
Is it because someone wanted to keep the holder?

No one here can tell you anything without seeing the coin. There are coins in just about any version of the holder that could upgrade at any time.

MidLifeCrisis · November 20, 2009 3:54AM

If I were you, I would not assume that it will grade higher simply because it's in an older holder.

Judge the coin on it's own merits to determine what YOU like and don't like about it. Do you think it has good eye appeal? Do you think it merits the 61 grade? You said the price is good as is...that's the bottom line. If you like the coin at the price it's being offered at, that's really all that matters.

Coins in old green holders can legitimately be considered to be more stable and you know they haven't been messed with in several years. But an OGH does not mean a sure upgrade any more than any other holder.

oreville · November 20, 2009 4:07AM

The coins in the OGH may more likely be strong for the grade than the newer slabs but not necessarily an upgrade candidate.

What bochiman and midlifecrisis stated are very good responses to you as well.

BaseballAbs · November 20, 2009 4:07AM

Honestly i would say i have seen many that could upgrade and some that are graded just right. Then again i have a few in the Blue holders that are undergraded. More often then not the statement about the old green holders being undergraded is true and not a myth. Its a dangerous game to be thinking they are all undergraded. Don't buy it just because it has a green tag on it. I would be very carefull about paying a premium.It also seems like some people like to make something worth more than it is just because of a holder that only cost a few cents in plastic. If you ask me PCGS does its best to make sure its reputation now is just as good as the days of the green holder and in my oppinion it is. My Bust Quarter Set

Stuart · November 20, 2009 4:13AM

HKStrongside: If you find an old collection containing PCGS OGH slabs that have been locked up in a vault since initial purchase (i.e. not run through the regrading mill) then the statistical chances are good that you may find some upgrade candidates. Remember that there are several generations of Old Green Holders (and Blue Tags) with varying grading standards evolving through time. See Conder101's thrads on this forum for reference.

However, most OGH coins that you will have access to purchasing will likely have already been considered for regrade and potential upgrade in the open market.

HKstrongside · November 20, 2009 4:20AM

Is there anyway to find out if a OGH has already been sent in for regrade consideration? I guess any PCGS graded coin for that matter. You guys are awesome, thanks again.

TomB · November 20, 2009 4:24AM

<< Is there anyway to find out if a OGH has already been sent in for regrade consideration? I guess any PCGS graded coin for that matter. You guys are awesome, thanks again. >>

If I recall correctly, coins sent to PCGS for regrade are broken out of their holders.

HKstrongside · November 20, 2009 4:35AM

Does that mean, they won't come back in the same OGH holder? So if it had been sent in before and regraded the same, it would come back in a new holder with the same grade?

LindeDad · November 20, 2009 4:37AM

<< 

<< Is there anyway to find out if a OGH has already been sent in for regrade consideration? I guess any PCGS graded coin for that matter. You guys are awesome, thanks again. >>

If I recall correctly, coins sent to PCGS for regrade are broken out of their holders. >>

This is correct, it would of lost the old holder.

RYK · November 20, 2009 4:38AM

Only on ebay is that a uniform truth.

In other words, on any given OGH coin, maybe it will upgrade, maybe it will stay the same, maybe it will downgrade, and maybe it will no grade (yes, I have had that happen to me).

lusterlover · November 20, 2009 6:09AM

All good points raised here. Us copper collectors like the fact that the color (especially reds) has been stable and not messed with for at least 15-20 years.

Elcontador · November 20, 2009 6:31AM

What Lusterlover said -- I have one copper in RD. It's an 09 P IHC in PC 5 RD in an OGH. Coin doctors can 'make' a RD copper, but it will turn in the holder. You know the color is stable on a RD copper if it has been in the same holder for a long time.

Re the OP's point, as others have said, the upgrade candidates from OGHs have been picked-off by now, unless they've been locked up for 20 years as another poster said.

If you have lots of time on your hands, if you're willing to look through enough of them, find an inexpensive coin, like a 38 D Nickel in PC 6, and see enough of them in OGHs to see if you run across an upgrade candidate. I stumbled onto one such coin five years ago and upgraded it.

coinguy1 · November 20, 2009 6:55AM

It was probably true long ago, before most of the better coins were cherry-picked for re-submissions/re-grades. Now, however, I think chances of sub-par quality are as good as or better than premium quality for coins in such holders.

DoubleEagle59 · November 20, 2009 7:05AM

a lot of the old holders that are still around are OVERGRADED.

JMW · November 20, 2009 7:59AM

If the holder isn't all scratched up, there's a good chance it's been sitting in a collection for a long time. But if a dealer has it, the "upgrade premium" is probably already built into the selling price.

roadrunner · November 20, 2009 8:16AM

The only myth is that all the old ogh's have been picked over. I buy on average 1-2 ogh coins per month at my local dealer that are good upgrade candidates. Many I just sell for premiums over regular price. But they just keep flowing in. And in the current environment most tend to be gold.

In your particular case the price differential from MS61 to MS62 is only $10 ($510 vs $520). It's irrelevant and certainly not worth the effort to resubmit it. If the coin is nice, it would fetch MS62 money. The real upside would be if the coin were nearly nice enough to make MS63. And that doesn't happen all that much with ogh's though at times some rattlers might be nice enough to make it.

roadrunner

telephoto1 · November 20, 2009 8:19AM

The OGH myth is just that...a myth. And a way to try to move the remaining end of the road and/or overgraded stuff to the credulous.

Despite isolated anecdotal contradictions by others, the vast majority of ogh coins that still exist are in all likelihood "upgrade rejects" that have already been submitted at some point in the past. I hear a lot of "well, I know a guy who submitted 5 ogh and they were all 2-3-4-5 point upgrades" stories, but I seldom if ever see any verifiable proof of such claims. Even if occasionally true, the chances of this happening at this stage of the game are next to nil. I'm not tryng to be a buzzkill, just a realist.

In short...BUY THE COIN, NOT THE HOLDER.

Barndog · November 20, 2009 8:22AM

I have a bunch of old holder coins but have only cracked and submitted one. It was a success

tightbudget · November 20, 2009 8:23AM

Totally a myth. As everyone else has said, most of the nice ones have already been regraded with most of the ones left being either properly graded or overgraded.

PCcoins · November 20, 2009 8:24AM

It's a myth IMO.

I have seen some potential upgrade coins in OGH's. But not all OGH coins will upgrade.

If you had high resolution images we could help with the grading, but since there's no pics it's impossible to tell if it would upgrade.

HKstrongside · November 21, 2009 3:22PM

Thanks, these are great comments. I ended up buying the coin since the price at its current grade of ms61 I think was a good buy. Now, I just need to decide if it is worth trying to regrade. I will get some photos up so you guys can see it.

Connecticoin · November 21, 2009 9:34PM

Yes, it's true, OGH stands for "over-graded holder"

BillJones · November 21, 2009 11:19PM

There is not substitute for knowing how to grade coins. Sure, there are some coins in old holders that are either conservatively graded or up grade candidates, BUT certainly not all of them! And there are a few coins in old holders that might come back in “genuine” holders if you cracked them out and resubmitted them.

You can’t use the size of the holder (e.g. old rattler) or the color of the label (green) to decide if a coin is properly graded. You have know how to grade coins and judge the eye appeal of the piece.

Priller · November 21, 2009 11:28PM

<< Thanks, these are great comments. I ended up buying the coin since the price at its current grade of ms61 I think was a good buy. Now, I just need to decide if it is worth trying to regrade. >>

Now the question becomes what is the upgrade motivation. If you are just hoping to turn it around for a profit, then that's your call. If you are a collector that would just like to own something that has a greater perceived value, my advise is to just enjoy what you have. Let me elaborate on my own upgrade misgivings.

I have an 1844-C $5 that I acquired around 1995. It was in an OGH (duh!) as a VF30. That grade is largely based on a weak strike. There is hardly a mark on it and it has more mint luster than most of the AU $5's I have. About 3 years ago, I sent it to PCGS as a regrade. It came back as a VF35 (I truly believe it's worth a 40). However, once the air hit it, a carbon spot developed that was not there before. It's not big and ugly. However, I'd rather have a 30 in an OGH, than a spot in a 35 blue label.

Moral of the story is ... if you enjoy and appreciate what you have, it's not worth the risk of messing it up for a different number on the label.

On another note ... much of the gold in OGH that I acquired 10-15 years ago looks so much better than what is on the market today. Most of my gold in OGH has very nice orange or rose patina. What's on the market today is the bright-n-shiny processed stuff. I only buy 1 or 2 coins a year because I don't see much I like.

MORGANHUNTER2 · November 21, 2009 11:30PM

Well as a few have said and feel that it is just a myth and that those left in the rattler or OGH are one of two ideas , one would never know just what will come out of it unless you want to chance sending it in for the upgrade possibility or just have it in a new holder.

Grading is a gamble, we all know this, if it were a true consensus of what the coin would actually be, then there would be no need for a TPG.

I'll give it a shot in a few weeks, 12 slabs that are a mix of rattlers and a few wrappers are going in for a regrade, and 10 old fat slabs from NGC are going in for a crossover.(I'll pump a group shot of em here, after I send them in and get the results back).

I'm feeling lucky this year..

Besides I want to visit with DW at the Houston Money Show, if he will entertain the moment.

19Lyds · November 22, 2009 12:02AM

Myth or not, other than postage, what is there to lose? If you really want to know, just send it in for a regrade.

PCGS guarantees that the coin will not down grade on a regrade but if you crack it out, all bets are off.

Stuart · November 22, 2009 12:16AM

HKstrongside: Some PCGS grading standards such as PL/DMPL designations for Morgan Dollars have tightened considerably in the last few years, resulting in making some of the originally graded borderline marginal PL/DMPL coins in older generation PCGS holders actually less desireable to collectors today than their modern day certified counterparts.

RYK · November 22, 2009 12:22AM

<< Myth or not, other than postage, what is there to lose? If you really want to know, just send it in for a regrade.

PCGS guarantees that the coin will not down grade on a regrade but if you crack it out, all bets are off. >>

I think that this is not necessarily a good strategy. Often , the possibility of the upgrade carries the value of the coin, and the OGH fuels the possibility. If you send the coin for a regrade, it will be returned in the current blue ticket slab, and at the same grade, you will lose the mystique and added desirability of the green label.

Personally, I like the way gold looks in the OGH (the color of the slab ticket goes very nicely with gold), and I would leave it as is.

Finally, if it is a common date Liberty $5, the price spread between 61 and 62 is negligible and not worth submitting. (You did not say in this thread what coin it is.)

fcloud · November 22, 2009 12:23AM

It really depends on the coin itself. Study it, compare it to newer holder and then decide. I had a couple OGH and Rattlers I picked up many years ago and just kept them as is. There are probably others that did the same, so you can't just think "oh, it would have been sent in, so it can't upgrade." Again look at the coin carefully to determine if you think it will upgrade (some are no brainers).

roadrunner · November 22, 2009 4:39AM

Despite isolated anecdotal contradictions by others, the vast majority of ogh coins that still exist are in all likelihood "upgrade rejects" that have already been submitted at some point in the past. I hear a lot of "well, I know a guy who submitted 5 ogh and they were all 2-3-4-5 point upgrades" stories, but I seldom if ever see any verifiable proof of such claims. Even if occasionally true, the chances of this happening at this stage of the game are next to nil. I'm not tryng to be a buzzkill, just a realist.

Fwiw coins in ogh's have NOT been retried at PCGS at least since before 1999. If they were, they would have been broken out and reslabbed into a newer blue label holder. The people that continue to claim that the ogh is all myth are the same people who probably have limited to zero experience in that area. When I stop running into PQ+ coins on a monthly basis I'll be the first to write the epithat. About 2-3 yrs ago I let go of an ogh 1857 PF66 dime purchased off ebay without trying it when my cash position was a bit low....settling for a "nil" $2000 pq+ premium. Even back then there were plenty of threads about the ogh myth being just that. That coin did end up in a PCGS PF67 holder as finest graded. It ultimately sold for about 2.5X what I originally let it go for. Some myth.

Millions of coins were graded pre-1999. Not all of them have even been bothered to be tried for regrade. Either the owners know exactly what they have and what to keep them in old holders or they just don't care. A lot of coins were buried and forgotten about in the early 1990's. About 2 yrs ago a dealer friend of mine purchased an entire 18th and 19th century type set of ogh's put away in the 1993-1998 time frame. There wasn't a bad coin in the bunch with some upgrading and essentially every coin bringing decent premiums to bid. I ended up with the VG Flowing Hair half and later sold it for nearly Fine money in the same holder.....just another myth.

roadrunner

BloodMan · November 22, 2009 8:00AM

Good points Roadrunner.

I also continue to search and find PQ examples in old holders. I found this one last week in an MS62 holder OGH—it looks better to me, but I don’t plan to resubmit.

docg · November 22, 2009 8:05AM

In my experience Clads in the OGH are graded much less stringently than the past few years. As many as 2 graded overgraded compared to what is being graded today.

relicsncoins · November 22, 2009 8:11AM

With a grade of 61, I would be equally concerned it might com back as a 58.

telephoto1 · November 23, 2009 5:56AM

<< Fwiw coins in ogh's have NOT been retried at PCGS at least since before 1999. If they were, they would have been broken out and reslabbed into a newer blue label holder. The people that continue to claim that the ogh is all myth are the same people who probably have limited to zero experience in that area. When I stop running into PQ+ coins on a monthly basis I'll be the first to write the epithat. About 2-3 yrs ago I let go of an ogh 1857 PF66 dime purchased off ebay without trying it when my cash position was a bit low....settling for a "nil" $2000 pq+ premium. Even back then there were plenty of threads about the ogh myth being just that. That coin did end up in a PCGS PF67 holder as finest graded. It ultimately sold for about 2.5X what I originally let it go for. Some myth.

Millions of coins were graded pre-1999. Not all of them have even been bothered to be tried for regrade. Either the owners know exactly what they have and what to keep them in old holders or they just don't care. A lot of coins were buried and forgotten about in the early 1990's. About 2 yrs ago a dealer friend of mine purchased an entire 18th and 19th century type set of ogh's put away in the 1993-1998 time frame. There wasn't a bad coin in the bunch with some upgrading and essentially every coin bringing decent premiums to bid. I ended up with the VG Flowing Hair half and later sold it for nearly Fine money in the same holder.....just another myth.

roadrunner >>

...and this would be one example of the isolated anecdotal contradictions of which I spoke. I still maintain that the school of thought that "most or all OGH holders are undergrades" is false and rooted largely in myth. Using a couple of instances to infer that all or even most OGH pieces are somehow upgrade worthy is silly. Further, just because someone succesfully sold an OGH coin at a profit doesn't necessarily mean the coin was a true undergrade...it only means that someone else happened to agree with the seller's assessment (and/or bought into the OGH mystique). Look at the "MS61" coin (with what looks to be rather obvious wear) that is the subject of this thread and tell us how much "PQ+" profit can be made. (No offense to op intended but that piece looks 58).

(And "fwiw" I've been a dealer for over 25 yrs. so I have slightly more than "limited to zero experience" thanks.)

Type2 · November 23, 2009 6:10AM

If you need to know send it in with out cracking it and see if it will upgrade that is one way with out the risk.

Nice coin.

DESERTRODENT · November 23, 2009 8:07AM

? since I have a box of 20 that were graded back in 1988 all raw to start with, they wouldn't upgrade now being fresh to the market per say?

Elcontador · November 23, 2009 8:38AM

I'm with telephoto on this. Unless the stuff has been locked away for awhile, most of the remaining coins in OGH are there because the owner knows what he has. In a related matter, this myth persists. With some OGH and 1st generation holdered coins, they command a premium.

Old Green Holder Myth true?

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