1909 V.D.B. Master Die varieties

CaptHenway · November 3, 2009 10:52AM

Lest they disappear with that thread, please see the pictures of the two different Master Die varieties for the V.D.B. on the 1909 V.D.B. cents that my colleague posted for me at the end of the 1910 S VDB thread.
TD

Edited to add: The pix are now below.
Photos by David Greenstein.

drwstr123 · November 3, 2009 11:09AM

(posted by Greeniejr)

CaptHenway · November 3, 2009 11:14AM

Thank you!

To recap my comments in the other thread, note the different sizes of the letters (the pictures were shot at the same magnification) including the taller "V"; the different shape of the "B," and, easiest to spot, the different position of the period between the "D" and the "B". On one of them the period is noticeably closer to the D, while on the other it is centered between the D and the B.

These differences were discovered and published by Ed Fleischmann in Coin World in the early 1970's. Please credit his memory.

TD

mr1931S · November 3, 2009 11:49AM

Question:

Which one of these two dies was used with 1909 S mintmarked coins?

GrumpyEd · November 3, 2009 12:02PM

<< Which one of these two dies was used with 1909 S mintmarked coins? >>

I've never seen an S-VDB without the centered dot.
Most 1909-P coins are the other style but I would assume they may come both ways.
I've always used the rule that if the dot is not centered on an S-VDB look close for an added S.
(you still might find an added S with the centered dot if P coins came both ways???)

Maybe TD knows...

Are there both types on S-VDB? (I think NO)
Are there both types on P-VDB?

mr1931S · November 3, 2009 12:07PM

Thanks,Ed.

I was just looking the pic of the corroded S V.D.B. that is the subject of another thread.Indeed,the second dot is centered between the D and B on this coin,as you say it should be, to be genuine.

CaptHenway · November 3, 2009 9:22PM

Thanks, Ed.
Will check our SVDB's today.
TD

Dropdaflag · November 3, 2009 10:25PM

Are all of the non-centered dots doubled as in the first pic?

RWB · November 3, 2009 11:15PM

The initials were hand cut into the master dies, unlike the rest of the inscriptions. (Brenner had been told to use initials, but the reverse model he sent had his name on it. Engraver Barber was told to replace the name with initials "VDB" so there would be no confusion with "B" for Barber.)

drwstr123 · November 3, 2009 11:22PM

S VDB....

CaptHenway · November 4, 2009 12:15AM

I checked the five 1909-SVDB's we have in inventory, and all have the centered dot.
TD

CaptHenway · November 4, 2009 12:16AM

<< The initials were hand cut into the master dies, unlike the rest of the inscriptions. (Brenner had been told to use initials, but the reverse model he sent had his name on it. Engraver Barber was told to replace the name with initials "VDB" so there would be no confusion with "B" for Barber.) >>

Thank you.
Is there any record of them having made two master dies?
TD

RWB · November 4, 2009 12:27AM

There's nothing explicit about the number of master dies. It is possible that more than one master die was made w/VDB so that the mint could ramp up production quickly.

Striking coins at San Francisco was a "last minute" decision made in July. I recall that 7 or 8 reverse dies were sent to SF, but only 3 (?) were used. (The data are at home so my recollection could be faulty.) Would have been reasonable for all SF rev dies to have come from one hub, esp if the Phil mint was short on production dies.

Do 1909-P VDB coins (incl proofs) share both rev hubs?

CaptHenway · November 4, 2009 3:05AM

<< There's nothing explicit about the number of master dies. It is possible that more than one master die was made w/VDB so that the mint could ramp up production quickly.

Striking coins at San Francisco was a "last minute" decision made in July. I recall that 7 or 8 reverse dies were sent to SF, but only 3 (?) were used. (The data are at home so my recollection could be faulty.) Would have been reasonable for all SF rev dies to have come from one hub, esp if the Phil mint was short on production dies.

Do 1909-P VDB coins (incl proofs) share both rev hubs? >>

The pictures above represent two different working hubs pulled from the two different master dies.

All of the pictures are of 1909 V.D.B. business strikes. I have not had an opportunity to examine any Proofs since I pulled Fleischmann's old story out of my memory banks. Anybody out there with a Proof is encouraged to check.

TD

Overdate · November 4, 2009 3:21AM

Anyone know why the initials were placed closer to the left wheat stalk, instead of centered?

RWB · November 4, 2009 3:37AM

The wheat ears were fixed in position by the master hub. Do the two VDB initial sets differ in placement relative to the stalks? Might Barber have started by putting a "B" in the center, then decided to add "VD?" From there forward he would have had to replicate the off-center position to avoid creating a variety for collectors to go after. (Barber was fully aware of coin collectors habits - he had one of the best pattern collections.)

robec · November 4, 2009 3:38AM

<< 

<< There's nothing explicit about the number of master dies. It is possible that more than one master die was made w/VDB so that the mint could ramp up production quickly.

Striking coins at San Francisco was a "last minute" decision made in July. I recall that 7 or 8 reverse dies were sent to SF, but only 3 (?) were used. (The data are at home so my recollection could be faulty.) Would have been reasonable for all SF rev dies to have come from one hub, esp if the Phil mint was short on production dies.

Do 1909-P VDB coins (incl proofs) share both rev hubs? >>

The pictures above represent two different working hubs pulled from the two different master dies.

All of the pictures are of 1909 V.D.B. business strikes. I have not had an opportunity to examine any Proofs since I pulled Fleischmann's old story out of my memory banks. Anybody out there with a Proof is encouraged to check.

TD >>

My proof VDB has the dot centered between D and B.

mr1931S · November 4, 2009 3:47AM

Some 1909 V.D.B.'s are missing,or mostly missing,one or more dots.Would examining the "tallness" of the letters be useful to help authenticate a coin that is missing the dot between D and B?

I have a copy of "Detecting Altered Coins" by Bert Harsche.On page 12 is shown eight closeup pictures of all eight "dot possibles."

Picture No.2 is of "V.D.B" (dot is actually mostly missing after the

.

Picture No. 6 is of "V D.B" (dot is actually mostly missing after the V,missing after the

.

Of the 8 pictures only No.2 and No.6 have the dot that is between the D and the B centered,AND the letters not appearing to be as tall as the letters in the other six pictures of VDB's.

What about picture No. 5 which is of "V.D B",the dot missing after the D and B? Harsche's picture here appears to me to show the dot that would be between D and B to be mostly missing.I can see a trace of it close to the D. In Picture No. 5, the letters appear taller than the letters in picture No. 2.

If one believes Harsche, No. 1 would be an SVDB because he says this on page 11,

"...all 1909S V.D.B. reverses that I have seen had the type one reverse with all periods prominent. Only a small percentage of the 1909 P V.D.B. are type one.Make certain the suspect coin has all periods prominent."

I would conclude that of the eight pictures of VDB's in Harsche's book,that No. 2 and No. 6 are actually the reverse's of 1909 SVDB. No. 1 with all periods prominent would be the reverse of a Philly coin,since its dot between D and B is close to D and the letters are tall compared to No. 2 and No. 6.

I think we can operate under the principle that Harsche's information is definitely not complete and SVDB having to have "all periods prominent" is,in a word,wrong.

It will be interesting if we can find whether there are business strike 1909 P VDB's in existence that have the not-so-tall letters and the dot centered between the D and B.

Last sentence edited to say "business strike 1909..."

RWB · November 4, 2009 4:04AM

The initials were very small and I suspect easily filled or partially filled by debris during production. Position and letter style are likely more reliable indicators than prominence of a dot.

CaptHenway · November 4, 2009 4:13AM

<< The initials were very small and I suspect easily filled or partially filled by debris during production. Position and letter style are likely more reliable indicators than prominence of a dot. >>

Agreed. While I was looking for some coins to shoot, I would say that over half the coins were missing some or all periods.
TD

robec · November 4, 2009 4:16AM

These are the initials from my proof VDB.

IrishMikey · November 4, 2009 5:06AM

Hi Captain. I never know that Ed was the originator of this research. Every Matte Proof 1909 VDB I have seen has the "Centered" dot. Every genuine 1909-S VDB also comes with the "Centered" dot. I have been working on the percentages of 'P' mint VDB cents for a while, including the reverse style for the doubled dies. While it appears from initial numbers that the "Centered" dot reverse is in the minority, quite a few of them have showed up lately, so I would not call them rare.

mr1931S · November 4, 2009 5:29AM

Note that the dot after the V on Robec's coin is close to the V and higher than the other dots.This appears to be another difference of the reverse hubs.

"While it appears from initial numbers that the "Centered" dot reverse is in the minority, quite a few of them have showed up lately, so I would not call them rare."

The fact that they do exist forces the SVDB authenticator to always "look beyond a centered dot."

IrishMikey · November 4, 2009 6:17AM

Yes, very true. I have seen two fake 1909-S VDB cents this week, both with added S mintmarks, that had the correct "Centered" dot reverse.

CaptHenway · November 4, 2009 11:25AM

<< Hi Captain. I never know that Ed was the originator of this research. Every Matte Proof 1909 VDB I have seen has the "Centered" dot. Every genuine 1909-S VDB also comes with the "Centered" dot. I have been working on the percentages of 'P' mint VDB cents for a while, including the reverse style for the doubled dies. While it appears from initial numbers that the "Centered" dot reverse is in the minority, quite a few of them have showed up lately, so I would not call them rare. >>

Neither variety is scarce. I would estimate that the split is no greater than 60-40.

Finding well struck initials with full periods is the hard one!

TD

CaptHenway · November 4, 2009 11:27AM

<< Anyone know why the initials were placed closer to the left wheat stalk, instead of centered? >>

Somebody messaged me to suggest that the period after the D was centered between the wheat stalks and they worked outwards from there, but that seems like a strange way to do it. Why not just center the D?

TD

CaptHenway · November 4, 2009 11:30AM

<< There's nothing explicit about the number of master dies. It is possible that more than one master die was made w/VDB so that the mint could ramp up production quickly.

Striking coins at San Francisco was a "last minute" decision made in July. I recall that 7 or 8 reverse dies were sent to SF, but only 3 (?) were used. (The data are at home so my recollection could be faulty.) Would have been reasonable for all SF rev dies to have come from one hub, esp if the Phil mint was short on production dies.

Do 1909-P VDB coins (incl proofs) share both rev hubs? >>

This reinforces my belief that the Mint did not record everything. Sometimes they did not need to do so. After all, the differences between the two are very subtle, and from the Mint's point of view they are identical.

TD

Edited to add:

Just because the Mint says that something happened, doesn't mean that it happened.

Just because the Mint says that something didn't happen, doesn't mean that it didn't happen.

Just because the Mint makes no mention that something did or didn't happen, doesn't have anything to do with reality. Some stuff got made up. Some stuff got ignored. Some stuff got covered up.

CaptHenway · November 5, 2009 12:44AM

<< Are all of the non-centered dots doubled as in the first pic? >>

No. That "doubling" is just an optical illusion.
TD

CaptHenway · November 6, 2009 2:33PM

<< Hi Captain. I never know that Ed was the originator of this research. Every Matte Proof 1909 VDB I have seen has the "Centered" dot. Every genuine 1909-S VDB also comes with the "Centered" dot. I have been working on the percentages of 'P' mint VDB cents for a while, including the reverse style for the doubled dies. While it appears from initial numbers that the "Centered" dot reverse is in the minority, quite a few of them have showed up lately, so I would not call them rare. >>

Any percentages you would care to share?
TD

CaptHenway · May 26, 2011 9:10AM

ttt

LanLord · May 26, 2011 9:32AM

<< 

It will be interesting if we can find whether there are business strike 1909 P VDB's in existence that have the not-so-tall letters and the dot centered between the D and B.

Last sentence edited to say "business strike 1909..." >>

Of the two mint state 1909 V.D.B cents I have, one is with the centered period, the other is with the period to the left. Both are business strikes.

CaptHenway · December 17, 2013 6:01AM

ttt, part deux

lusterlover · December 17, 2013 11:40AM

Happy to play. My MS has the dot in the middle (below) and so does my PR (not pictured). What do I win....

bolivarshagnasty · December 17, 2013 11:53AM

My S-VDB reverse.

CaptHenway · January 2, 2020 5:37PM

Zombie thread question: Is there anyway to view these old Photobucket images without the blankety-blank logo?

Hemispherical · January 2, 2020 5:43PM

Original posters used the buckets free service that adds watermarks and low-res images.

CaptHenway · January 2, 2020 6:07PM

Kind of worthless now. Anybody care to update this thread with new, good pictures of the two varieties?

Hemispherical · January 2, 2020 7:09PM

@CaptHenway

In the OP and subsequent post @Greeniejr (recently active poster) was the pic originator perhaps he has a non-water marked pic available?

And @robec has his VDB proof pic.

Greeniejr · January 3, 2020 9:10AM

Hey @Hemispherical, these images were taken as part of my previous job and I did not take my images with me. I will see about getting them.

robec · January 3, 2020 10:46AM

@Hemispherical said:
@CaptHenway

In the OP and subsequent post @Greeniejr (recently active poster) was the pic originator perhaps he has a non-water marked pic available?

And @robec has his VDB proof pic.

Here is an updated photo of the Proof VDB with the centered dot.

CaptHenway · January 3, 2020 11:56AM

Fabulous shot! Thanks!
TD

mr1931S · November 10, 2025 8:26PM

Here's an old thread about 1909 V.D.B. Master Die Varieties. The images need update.

MsMorrisine · November 10, 2025 9:24PM

the whole thread's worth of photos would need to reposted

i'm not certain, but greeniejr's photos don't seem to be there. it may take some work to repopulate this thread.

i go back to coinfacts again and suggest using photos from there as a start

WaterSport · November 11, 2025 7:35AM

So there may be some over lying info being discussed here that is explained in Shawn Tews research and book - _The Rabbit Hole of the 1909 Lincoln Wheat Cents. _ Let me see if I can find his old post.

WS

WaterSport · November 11, 2025 7:38AM

https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/1094653/1910-reverse-of-1909-class-iii-transitional-lincoln-wheat-cent

Old_Collector · November 11, 2025 7:47AM

1909 V.D.B. reverse type 1 engraved by Brenner (centered dot between D and B )

1909 V.D.B. type 2 engraved by Barber (second dot closer to D)

Information from Shawn Tews Rabbit Hole 1909 Cent in public domain.

You can find the two types at PCGS. Type 1 1909 VDB Lincoln Cent PCGS MS68RD #46657835
and Type 2 1909 VDB Lincoln Cent PCGS MS67+RD #44684987

CaptHenway · November 11, 2025 2:10PM

I checked with GreenieJr. He will check but does not think that he still has the original pictures.

The above pictures show the position of the dot nicely. Anybody else have some early die state coins they can shoot at the same magnification?

Old_Collector · November 11, 2025 6:18PM

Here are two more shots that I believe are earlier die states.

From PCGS Coinfacts Examples

CaptHenway · November 11, 2025 9:37PM

Yes, thank you.

1909 V.D.B. Master Die varieties

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