1909 V.D.B. Master Die varieties
CaptHenway
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Lest they disappear with that thread, please see the pictures of the two different Master Die varieties for the V.D.B. on the 1909 V.D.B. cents that my colleague posted for me at the end of the 1910 S VDB thread.
TD
Edited to add: The pix are now below.
Photos by David Greenstein.
TD
Edited to add: The pix are now below.
Photos by David Greenstein.
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
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(posted by Greeniejr)
To recap my comments in the other thread, note the different sizes of the letters (the pictures were shot at the same magnification) including the taller "V"; the different shape of the "B," and, easiest to spot, the different position of the period between the "D" and the "B". On one of them the period is noticeably closer to the D, while on the other it is centered between the D and the B.
These differences were discovered and published by Ed Fleischmann in Coin World in the early 1970's. Please credit his memory.
TD
Which one of these two dies was used with 1909 S mintmarked coins?
“I believe in intuitions and inspirations. I sometimes feel that I am right. I do not know that I am. When two expeditions of scientists, financed by the Royal Academy, went forth to test my theory of relativity, I was convinced that their conclusions would tally with my hypothesis. I was not surprised when the eclipse of May 29, 1919, confirmed my intuitions. I would have been surprised if I had been wrong.”
“Then you trust more to your imagination than to your knowledge?”
“I am enough of the artist to draw freely upon my imagination. Imagination is more important than knowledge. Knowledge is limited. Imagination encircles the world.”
Albert Einstein- quoted in Saturday Evening Post interview (1929)
<< <i>Which one of these two dies was used with 1909 S mintmarked coins? >>
I've never seen an S-VDB without the centered dot.
Most 1909-P coins are the other style but I would assume they may come both ways.
I've always used the rule that if the dot is not centered on an S-VDB look close for an added S.
(you still might find an added S with the centered dot if P coins came both ways???)
Maybe TD knows...
Are there both types on S-VDB? (I think NO)
Are there both types on P-VDB?
I was just looking the pic of the corroded S V.D.B. that is the subject of another thread.Indeed,the second dot is centered between the D and B on this coin,as you say it should be, to be genuine.
“I believe in intuitions and inspirations. I sometimes feel that I am right. I do not know that I am. When two expeditions of scientists, financed by the Royal Academy, went forth to test my theory of relativity, I was convinced that their conclusions would tally with my hypothesis. I was not surprised when the eclipse of May 29, 1919, confirmed my intuitions. I would have been surprised if I had been wrong.”
“Then you trust more to your imagination than to your knowledge?”
“I am enough of the artist to draw freely upon my imagination. Imagination is more important than knowledge. Knowledge is limited. Imagination encircles the world.”
Albert Einstein- quoted in Saturday Evening Post interview (1929)
Will check our SVDB's today.
TD
https://www.smallcopperguy.com
TD
<< <i>The initials were hand cut into the master dies, unlike the rest of the inscriptions. (Brenner had been told to use initials, but the reverse model he sent had his name on it. Engraver Barber was told to replace the name with initials "VDB" so there would be no confusion with "B" for Barber.) >>
Thank you.
Is there any record of them having made two master dies?
TD
Striking coins at San Francisco was a "last minute" decision made in July. I recall that 7 or 8 reverse dies were sent to SF, but only 3 (?) were used. (The data are at home so my recollection could be faulty.) Would have been reasonable for all SF rev dies to have come from one hub, esp if the Phil mint was short on production dies.
Do 1909-P VDB coins (incl proofs) share both rev hubs?
<< <i>There's nothing explicit about the number of master dies. It is possible that more than one master die was made w/VDB so that the mint could ramp up production quickly.
Striking coins at San Francisco was a "last minute" decision made in July. I recall that 7 or 8 reverse dies were sent to SF, but only 3 (?) were used. (The data are at home so my recollection could be faulty.) Would have been reasonable for all SF rev dies to have come from one hub, esp if the Phil mint was short on production dies.
Do 1909-P VDB coins (incl proofs) share both rev hubs? >>
The pictures above represent two different working hubs pulled from the two different master dies.
All of the pictures are of 1909 V.D.B. business strikes. I have not had an opportunity to examine any Proofs since I pulled Fleischmann's old story out of my memory banks. Anybody out there with a Proof is encouraged to check.
TD
My Adolph A. Weinman signature
<< <i>
<< <i>There's nothing explicit about the number of master dies. It is possible that more than one master die was made w/VDB so that the mint could ramp up production quickly.
Striking coins at San Francisco was a "last minute" decision made in July. I recall that 7 or 8 reverse dies were sent to SF, but only 3 (?) were used. (The data are at home so my recollection could be faulty.) Would have been reasonable for all SF rev dies to have come from one hub, esp if the Phil mint was short on production dies.
Do 1909-P VDB coins (incl proofs) share both rev hubs? >>
The pictures above represent two different working hubs pulled from the two different master dies.
All of the pictures are of 1909 V.D.B. business strikes. I have not had an opportunity to examine any Proofs since I pulled Fleischmann's old story out of my memory banks. Anybody out there with a Proof is encouraged to check.
TD >>
My proof VDB has the dot centered between D and B.
- Bob -
MPL's - Lincolns of Color
Central Valley Roosevelts
I have a copy of "Detecting Altered Coins" by Bert Harsche.On page 12 is shown eight closeup pictures of all eight "dot possibles."
Picture No.2 is of "V.D.B" (dot is actually mostly missing after the
Picture No. 6 is of "V D.B" (dot is actually mostly missing after the V,missing after the
Of the 8 pictures only No.2 and No.6 have the dot that is between the D and the B centered,AND the letters not appearing to be as tall as the letters in the other six pictures of VDB's.
What about picture No. 5 which is of "V.D B",the dot missing after the D and B? Harsche's picture here appears to me to show the dot that would be between D and B to be mostly missing.I can see a trace of it close to the D. In Picture No. 5, the letters appear taller than the letters in picture No. 2.
If one believes Harsche, No. 1 would be an SVDB because he says this on page 11,
"...all 1909S V.D.B. reverses that I have seen had the type one reverse with all periods prominent. Only a small percentage of the 1909 P V.D.B. are type one.Make certain the suspect coin has all periods prominent."
I would conclude that of the eight pictures of VDB's in Harsche's book,that No. 2 and No. 6 are actually the reverse's of 1909 SVDB. No. 1 with all periods prominent would be the reverse of a Philly coin,since its dot between D and B is close to D and the letters are tall compared to No. 2 and No. 6.
I think we can operate under the principle that Harsche's information is definitely not complete and SVDB having to have "all periods prominent" is,in a word,wrong.
It will be interesting if we can find whether there are business strike 1909 P VDB's in existence that have the not-so-tall letters and the dot centered between the D and B.
Last sentence edited to say "business strike 1909..."
“I believe in intuitions and inspirations. I sometimes feel that I am right. I do not know that I am. When two expeditions of scientists, financed by the Royal Academy, went forth to test my theory of relativity, I was convinced that their conclusions would tally with my hypothesis. I was not surprised when the eclipse of May 29, 1919, confirmed my intuitions. I would have been surprised if I had been wrong.”
“Then you trust more to your imagination than to your knowledge?”
“I am enough of the artist to draw freely upon my imagination. Imagination is more important than knowledge. Knowledge is limited. Imagination encircles the world.”
Albert Einstein- quoted in Saturday Evening Post interview (1929)
<< <i>The initials were very small and I suspect easily filled or partially filled by debris during production. Position and letter style are likely more reliable indicators than prominence of a dot. >>
Agreed. While I was looking for some coins to shoot, I would say that over half the coins were missing some or all periods.
TD
- Bob -
MPL's - Lincolns of Color
Central Valley Roosevelts
"While it appears from initial numbers that the "Centered" dot reverse is in the minority, quite a few of them have showed up lately, so I would not call them rare."
The fact that they do exist forces the SVDB authenticator to always "look beyond a centered dot."
“I believe in intuitions and inspirations. I sometimes feel that I am right. I do not know that I am. When two expeditions of scientists, financed by the Royal Academy, went forth to test my theory of relativity, I was convinced that their conclusions would tally with my hypothesis. I was not surprised when the eclipse of May 29, 1919, confirmed my intuitions. I would have been surprised if I had been wrong.”
“Then you trust more to your imagination than to your knowledge?”
“I am enough of the artist to draw freely upon my imagination. Imagination is more important than knowledge. Knowledge is limited. Imagination encircles the world.”
Albert Einstein- quoted in Saturday Evening Post interview (1929)
<< <i>Hi Captain. I never know that Ed was the originator of this research. Every Matte Proof 1909 VDB I have seen has the "Centered" dot. Every genuine 1909-S VDB also comes with the "Centered" dot. I have been working on the percentages of 'P' mint VDB cents for a while, including the reverse style for the doubled dies. While it appears from initial numbers that the "Centered" dot reverse is in the minority, quite a few of them have showed up lately, so I would not call them rare. >>
Neither variety is scarce. I would estimate that the split is no greater than 60-40.
Finding well struck initials with full periods is the hard one!
TD
<< <i>Anyone know why the initials were placed closer to the left wheat stalk, instead of centered? >>
Somebody messaged me to suggest that the period after the D was centered between the wheat stalks and they worked outwards from there, but that seems like a strange way to do it. Why not just center the D?
TD
<< <i>There's nothing explicit about the number of master dies. It is possible that more than one master die was made w/VDB so that the mint could ramp up production quickly.
Striking coins at San Francisco was a "last minute" decision made in July. I recall that 7 or 8 reverse dies were sent to SF, but only 3 (?) were used. (The data are at home so my recollection could be faulty.) Would have been reasonable for all SF rev dies to have come from one hub, esp if the Phil mint was short on production dies.
Do 1909-P VDB coins (incl proofs) share both rev hubs? >>
This reinforces my belief that the Mint did not record everything. Sometimes they did not need to do so. After all, the differences between the two are very subtle, and from the Mint's point of view they are identical.
TD
Edited to add:
Just because the Mint says that something happened, doesn't mean that it happened.
Just because the Mint says that something didn't happen, doesn't mean that it didn't happen.
Just because the Mint makes no mention that something did or didn't happen, doesn't have anything to do with reality. Some stuff got made up. Some stuff got ignored. Some stuff got covered up.
<< <i>Are all of the non-centered dots doubled as in the first pic? >>
No. That "doubling" is just an optical illusion.
TD
<< <i>Hi Captain. I never know that Ed was the originator of this research. Every Matte Proof 1909 VDB I have seen has the "Centered" dot. Every genuine 1909-S VDB also comes with the "Centered" dot. I have been working on the percentages of 'P' mint VDB cents for a while, including the reverse style for the doubled dies. While it appears from initial numbers that the "Centered" dot reverse is in the minority, quite a few of them have showed up lately, so I would not call them rare. >>
Any percentages you would care to share?
TD
<< <i>
It will be interesting if we can find whether there are business strike 1909 P VDB's in existence that have the not-so-tall letters and the dot centered between the D and B.
Last sentence edited to say "business strike 1909..." >>
Of the two mint state 1909 V.D.B cents I have, one is with the centered period, the other is with the period to the left. Both are business strikes.
https://pcgs.com/setregistry/showcase/2819
Zombie thread question: Is there anyway to view these old Photobucket images without the blankety-blank logo?
Original posters used the buckets free service that adds watermarks and low-res images.
Kind of worthless now. Anybody care to update this thread with new, good pictures of the two varieties?
@CaptHenway
In the OP and subsequent post @Greeniejr (recently active poster) was the pic originator perhaps he has a non-water marked pic available?
And @robec has his VDB proof pic.
Hey @Hemispherical, these images were taken as part of my previous job and I did not take my images with me. I will see about getting them.
Here is an updated photo of the Proof VDB with the centered dot.
- Bob -
MPL's - Lincolns of Color
Central Valley Roosevelts
Fabulous shot! Thanks!
TD