Anyone know what is up with the Goodacre Sacagawea Dollars??

eCoinquest · October 20, 2009 11:18AM

It has been a fact for many years now that a total of 5000 Goodacre dollars were produced. ICG slabbed all 5000 and assigned numbers from 1 to 5000. Numbers 2003 to 4999 were released to the public with the rest being retained by Ms. Goodacre.

For those of you that don't know what the difference between a regular business strike and a Goodacre type 2 finish is simply the Mint burnished the Goodacres after they were struck.

Ebay listing Goodacre #1906
I have noticed that a couple of Goodacres, #1903 and #1906 have been listed on Ebay recently by the same seller. I have been told that the seller or the sellers family has some connection to Ms. Goodacre so is it possible that they trying to quietly sell the remainder of the coins, numbers 1-2003? As anyone heard anything regarding this??
Prices for these have been fairly stable around $500- $600 for ICG coins and $600-$800 for PCGS graded coins. How would the release of all the remaining coins affect the prices for these?

CaptHenway · October 20, 2009 11:52AM

Their existence has never been a secret, nor the possibility that they would someday come on the market. Properly marketed, I don't think that their sale will hurt the market too much. It might even help, if they were promoted properly.
MOO
TD

jmski52 · October 20, 2009 11:57AM

is it possible that they trying to quietly sell the remainder of the coins, numbers 1-2003?

I track the sales of Goodacre Dollars occasionally, and I've noticed for at least 4 or maybe 5 years that not all of the pieces being sold on ebay are above 2500, which had been my understanding initially.

After seeing Glenna Goodacre's sidewalk sculptures in Albuquerque, I became a fan of hers.

Eagleguy · October 20, 2009 9:30PM

She had some health issues a while back. I wonder how she is doing and whether or not that was a factor in the decision to sell.

JH

ricko · October 20, 2009 10:49PM

I would think that if any appreciable quantity is put on the market, prices will go down. If they are released slowly, without hype, prices could remain stable. Not being a collector of provenance coins, I would not want one anyway. Cheers, RickO

jmski52 · October 20, 2009 10:58PM

Not being a collector of provenance coins, I would not want one anyway.

Ricko, the finish on these coins is unique. Much different than an unc, a satin unc or even a proof.

mikeyg · October 20, 2009 11:02PM

I would go for 400 to 500 for one

garsmith · October 20, 2009 11:08PM

Maybe she gave some away to friends, associates ..... and those are the ones coming out in the market

eCoinquest · October 20, 2009 11:37PM

Interesting, so at this point unfortunately all we can do is speculate. I contacted the seller awhile back and received no response which leads me to believe that they are trying not to attract attention.

Ricko please understand that these are not just provenance coins, they were burnished at the US Mint after striking giving them a very shiny finish. Toning appears more limited on these and they tend to turn orange instead of brown.

jmski52 · October 21, 2009 12:00AM

Toning appears more limited on these and they tend to turn orange instead of brown.

Mine seem to be getting a wonderfully even and deeper golden tone, very slowly inside their ICG holders and Intercept Shield boxes. Very attractive coins.

Ricko, stay away!

19Lyds · October 21, 2009 4:52AM

<< <i>Interesting, so at this point unfortunately all we can do is speculate. I contacted the seller awhile back and received no response which leads me to believe that they are trying not to attract attention.

Ricko please understand that these are not just provenance coins, they were burnished at the US Mint after striking giving them a very shiny finish. Toning appears more limited on these and they tend to turn orange instead of brown. >>

"Glenna Goodacre, acting on the advice of her friend Stephen Tebo, elected to take the design fee of $5,000 for her spectacular obverse design of the new dollar, in Sacagawea Dollars. These presentation coins were specially treated: the planchets were burnished, the coins were struck from fresh dies, and the final product was treated with an anti-oxidant.

Our firm, Tebo Coin Company, negotiated on behalf of Ms. Goodacre to have all 5,000 of the coins encapsulated at ICG. As Glenna is well known for her incredible bronze art sculptures, which are sold as individually serial numbered works from a total edition, we requested ICG to number these coins from 1 to 5,000 out of the total edition of 5,000. This seemed appropriate since these too, are wonderful works of art. Based on the long-term relationship with Glenna, we were given a small group of these coins to sell. Since they were encapsulated at ICG, which is only 30 miles away, the plastic on the holders is fresh and free from scratches. These are the finest of all of the Goodacre Sacagawea dollars being offered!"

When I lived in Denver, I often dealt with Tebo Coin. Darrel, Carol (a guy) and Chad were always open for my orations on the virtues of collecting IKE Dollars, Wisconsin Extra Leaf and Minnesota Extra Tree Quarters! As a coin store, Tebo Coin in Boulder does not keep a "low Profile" on anything.
I expect that this coin is simply part of their original allotment to sell or perhaps a previous customer is looking to sell for whatever reason.

I am waiting for a call back from Chad as I type to find out the specifics on this particular coin.

19Lyds · October 21, 2009 5:10AM

This is just a coin which the owner of Tebo Coins instructed the employees to auction off.

There will be others following this one.

BillJones · October 21, 2009 6:17AM

As a collector the Goodacre coins don't interest me in the least. They were whizzed, not minted in a special way like a Proof coin, and are therefore of no interest to me at any price.

I really don't want encourage this type of numismatic marketing because the process can be duplicated outside of the mint and can be very detrimental to the hobby.

jmski52 · October 21, 2009 6:38AM

They were whizzed, not minted in a special way like a Proof coin

the process can be duplicated outside of the mint and can be very detrimental to the hobby

Please provide documentation for your assertions. I don't think you are correct on this one. Respectfully, jmski

BillJones · October 21, 2009 6:44AM

<< <i>Please provide documentation for your assertions. I don't think you are correct on this one. Respectfully, jmski >>

From the day these coins were issued, it was freely admitted that something was done to the surfaces AFTER the coins were struck No one disputes that including the people who marketed them.

ModernDollarNut · October 21, 2009 6:58AM

I'm not privy to insider info but I understand the Goodacres were "burnished" in a vibrating vat filled with corn-cog filings, a highly abrasive material.

ICG did not grade the 5,000 Goodacres that Glenna paid to have holdered.

Bill Jones, ICG management agreed with you, a burnished coin is an adulterated coin and therefore ineligible for grading by ICG.

I take the opposite point of view: I think ICG should have graded them as the burnishing was integral to their production (like washing a struck coin to remove oils and the like) and was carried out uniformly on all the Goodacres.

The Goodacres are indeed a beautiful Sac and it's been my pleasure to have handled about 20 of them in prior years including three I bought fpr $15 eacj at a prominent brick and morter store that had me cool my heels for 20 minutes when I was the only costomer and then treated me like low-life when I asked to see the three Sacs in the glass case listed at $15 each. . . Rob

BillJones · October 21, 2009 7:07AM

Yes, and at the time a bunch of scum bag dealers sold raw, burnished Sacagawea dollars to the "less informed" collectors at premium prices.

Sorry, but I don't want to encourage more of this dealer activity in the future. If there are to be special dollars, let them be Proofs in specific holders. Otherwise forget it.

jmski52 · October 21, 2009 7:36AM

From the day these coins were issued, it was freely admitted that something was done to the surfaces AFTER the coins were struck No one disputes that including the people who marketed them.

In his January 15, 2001 Coin World rebuttal of the theory that the Millennium and Goodacre Dollars were post-strike burnished, Michael Fahey stated, "both Tim Hargis of the ANACS grading staff and Thomas K. DeLorey have inspected some of the "Goodacre" pieces. Both considered the surfaces of these dollars to be totally original. Neither saw any signs of polishing or "burnishing" on any of the "Goodacre" coins they have inspected. I have known both DeLorey and Hargis since the 1980s, and their numismatic opinions are accurate and reliable."

This statement was in the same context in which Mr. Fahey had also stated that the Millennium Dollars that he personally examined showed no signs of post-strike burnishing.

Everyone pretty much agrees that the coins were burnished before striking. The Mint provided information in a Dept. of Justice Lawsuit that describes the process for the Satin Uncirculated coins which includes post-strike burnishing, but also distinguishes the Goodacre process from that of the Satin Unc coins, without really being specific.

ICG takes the position that the Goodacres were post-strike burnished, but has no proof. Their findings proved that both the Satin Uncs and the Goodacres were pre-strike burnished, based on the discovery of some Goodacres where the strike wasn't complete, which revealed the pre-strike burnishing.

My point is this - even if the Goodacres were post-strike burnished (which they weren't - according to Fahey), the finish cannot be duplicated after striking on a regular issue coin. For that to be possible, the Year 2000 coins would have to have been available in burnished condition before striking - and none of them were. Other than on the Millennium Sacs, the post-strike burnishing process on Satin Uncs was only implemented on the 2005 coins and since, and there is no other reference to pre-strike burnishing since the Millennium Sacs were produced. In any case, the main consideration is that the appearances are starkly different in comparing a Goodacre to a Satin Unc, which tells me that the processes were different as well.

Oddly, in a Letter to the Editor of Coin World on Feb. 19, 2001 by Jay Johnson, he states that "The 5,000 coins were minted in the same manner as our other Uncirculated-quality golden dollar coins. Any market value above that of other Uncirculated golden dollars is a decision made by the marketplace - not by the Mint." Apparently, even the Director of the Mint was mis-informed.

Strange, huh?

The last set of comments on the issue by ICG's Keith Love were inconclusive, in my opinion. The reason I think so is because his comments regarding a die marker caused by die polish don't acknowledge the possibility that the die marker could have been diminished by the pre-strike burnishing or even by the striking of the coin itself instead of by post-strike burnishing as he asserts.

Maybe I'm wrong, but it seems to me that nobody really knows the process - besides the guys at the Mint who actually made those Goodacres.

19Lyds · October 21, 2009 8:12AM

<< <i>As a collector the Goodacre coins don't interest me in the least. They were whizzed, not minted in a special way like a Proof coin, and are therefore of no interest to me at any price.

I really don't want encourage this type of numismatic marketing because the process can be duplicated outside of the mint and can be very detrimental to the hobby. >>

"These presentation coins were specially treated: the planchets were burnished, the coins were struck from fresh dies, and the final product was treated with an anti-oxidant."

Had the coins been "burnished" outside of the US Mint then perhaps you would have a point. But since there were burnished "BY" the US Mint then they are as delivered and IMO hold a significant place in Numismatic History as "Presentation Pieces". Absolutely no different than the 1976 No S Silver Proof eisenhower Dolllar coins.

Since all the coins were encapsulated by ICG (who for whatever reason decided not to grade them) I see nothing wrong with owning them nor do I see them as a detriment to the hobby.

They are, after all, presentation pieces awarded to the winer of the contest to design the new Sacagawea Dollar coin. No more and certainly no less.

jmski52 · October 21, 2009 8:20AM

In a later analysis on June 18, 2001 in Coin World, Fahey goes into a more detailed explanation of his findings on strike-throughs. None of the strike-throughs exhibited any post-strike polishing or smoothing which would have been the case with post-strike burnishing.

He also observes that the reflectivity on the raised lettering is not the same as on the fields of the coins, which would be the case with post-strike polishing. His conclusion - no post strike damage occurred and the Goodacres (and Millennium Dollars as well) are totally original surfaces, as struck.

eCoinquest · October 21, 2009 9:16AM

I am not going to waste time reiterating what jmski52 and others have explained regarding the Goodacre Dollars. It should be clear that these ARE special presentation coins and DO have a finish unlike regular business strikes.

BillJones assertion that it is possible to create this finish outside the US Mint is, with all do respect, silly.

Might I add that PCGS grades and attributes these. I believe ICG made their decision in 2000 based upon the accepted theory at the time on how these were created. Since then new information has been brought to light.

19lyds, I appreciate the info regarding Tebo coins. I understand that Tebo has been selling Goodacres fairly consistently for several years now. All the numbers sold up to now have been above #2003. My question is how come they have begun to sell coins numbered below #2003. Simply, are we going to get a chance at all the remaining goodacres?

19Lyds · October 21, 2009 11:20AM

<< <i>I am not going to waste time reiterating what jmski52 and others have explained regarding the Goodacre Dollars. It should be clear that these ARE special presentation coins and DO have a finish unlike regular business strikes.

BillJones assertion that it is possible to create this finish outside the US Mint is, with all do respect, silly.

Might I add that PCGS grades and attributes these. I believe ICG made their decision in 2000 based upon the accepted theory at the time on how these were created. Since then new information has been brought to light.

19lyds, I appreciate the info regarding Tebo coins. I understand that Tebo has been selling Goodacres fairly consistently for several years now. All the numbers sold up to now have been above #2003. My question is how come they have begun to sell coins numbered below #2003. Simply, are we going to get a chance at all the remaining goodacres? >>

You need to call Chad and ask him yourself. He did not think that the Goodacre's had any special tie to these coins and for all I know, the information regarding what numbers Glenna was keeping may have been exaggerated. I just do not know.

sinin1 · December 30, 2009 8:51AM

burnished and treated with an antioxidant

PCGS has graded some - a PCGS MS67 in Teletrade tonight

Anyone know what is up with the Goodacre Sacagawea Dollars??

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