What Is The Best Way To Determine If A Roll Is In An Original..
InternetJunky
Posts: 2,329 ✭
....Wrap? I was wondering what the diagnostics may be to determine if a roll is an OBW roll. I know the crimping has a big impact and also the wrapper itself. Is there wrappers that were not introduced until X year? Did all wrappers consist of regular paper (example: String & Sons current bank wrapper) or wrapped in a different type of material? What do you use for diagnostics? Any tips you'd give to anyone who plans on buying some in the future? 
I did a quick search for this but didn't find a thread in which it is a compilation of good tips - just mainly opinions saying "fake" or "real". Also, I believe this would prove to be a good reference thread for the future too.
So what do you say?
I did a quick search for this but didn't find a thread in which it is a compilation of good tips - just mainly opinions saying "fake" or "real". Also, I believe this would prove to be a good reference thread for the future too.
So what do you say?
1
Comments
Most banks used to roll coins from bags from the Fed. Now it is mostly done by Armored car companies.
There used to be many different wrapper makers. And many businesses and even individuals would roll coins for deposit.
Now most of us just dump them into a coin star and pay the fees.
And I will note that if it says "Original" on eBay IMO that just means they reused the wrapper.
I have seen 2002 through 2008 Kennedy Half Dollar rolls in original coin wrappers that were professionally wrapped. They were tight and well crimped and I have no doubt at all that these were untouched rolls. BUT, since the 2002 through 2008 Kennedy coins were never released to the Federal Reserve, I also know that these rolls were privately done.
The best advice I have for determining if a roll is original or not is to become familiar with what "type" of coin wrappers were available for the specific time period of the roll you are buying. In other words, if a roll of wheat cents appears to be tight and original but the paper was only available say from the early 90's on, then you've got a professionally wrapped roll. The seller may not have wrapped it or even the fellow he bought them from, but somebody did and it wasn't a bank.
Developing a knowledge about what you are buying and looking for vs what you are willing to pay is something that can only be learned through experience.
The name is LEE!
<< <i>Just assume they all have been opened. I would say 99% of rolls over 10 years old have been opened. Cheers, RickO >>
I'm thinking that you'd be wrong.
Barrytrot(2),Stupid,Savoyspecial,docq,ecoinquest, halfhunter,snman,Coll3ctor.
wondercoin. Blue594. internetjunky.
keepdachange. Scrapman1077.Ahrensdad, mrmom, mygrandeoso, blu62vette, Clackamas,giorgio11, adriana, cucamongacoin,
You CAN roll your own
......lee, that brings back memories! my father used to roll his own................prince albert and bugler came to mind.
<< <i>....Wrap? I was wondering what the diagnostics may be to determine if a roll is an OBW roll. I know the crimping has a big impact and also the wrapper itself. Is there wrappers that were not introduced until X year? Did all wrappers consist of regular paper (example: String & Sons current bank wrapper) or wrapped in a different type of material? What do you use for diagnostics? Any tips you'd give to anyone who plans on buying some in the future?
I did a quick search for this but didn't find a thread in which it is a compilation of good tips - just mainly opinions saying "fake" or "real". Also, I believe this would prove to be a good reference thread for the future too.
So what do you say? >>
Over the years I've purchased thousands of paper rolls, from collectors, dealers, on eBay, etc. My "true OBW" hit rate for eBay is about 50%, and for sight-seen rolls around 90%. I focus on Lincoln Wheat Cents, so some of my observations may not correlate to Memorials or other denominations, but here are a few tips:
1) The end coins need to have some toning. Most rolls I've opened that have bright end coins have been re-wrapped. You can see this kind of roll on eBay. Imagine a roll of copper coins from 1944 where the end coin, exposed to the air, looked mint-fresh. I can't. I guess the sellers that re-roll coins think that it is a plus to have perfect end coins, and in fact I am glad they tout that characteristic because it's the first clue that it is not an original roll. That said, I did purchase a group of 100 rolls of 54D, 55D, and 58D from Seattle Branch FRB SF that were stored in a sealed coffee can. All end coins were perfect, so I know there are exceptions.
2) Perfect crimping. I have yet to find an OBW roll that has perfect crimps, with the possible exception of Batdorf rolls. Most every perfect-crimped roll I've opened has been a re-wrap. Most true OBW are pretty ugly, loose, and gnarly. I'm talking about the "open" end on pre-wraps (non-Batdorf) rolls. The pre-crimped end, with or without paper plug, should be perfect.
3) Fuzzy crimping. Many re-wraps have fuzzy crimping on the re-wrapped end. If both ends are fuzzy, that's still no guarantee. A common ploy for this type of roll is to ship the roll in a Nickel tube. Nearly every roll I've received in a Nickel tube has been a re-wrap, so beware.
If the roll passes 1-2-3 above, more research is in order.
4) The bank noted on the wrapper should actually have been in business under the name on the wrapper in the year the coins were minted. It's pretty easy to look up bank histories on Google. I've published a couple of fraudulent wrappings on the group and will continue to do so when I see them. Please do the same and we'll all learn a little more about bank history and fraud prevention. Here's an example of what I'm talking about:
Fake 1949S OBW
5) The roll is of the correct vintage. At this point, I can look at an OBW roll and based on the bank and year I can tell you if it's wrapper is of the correct vintage 90% of the time. Printing characteristics, fonts, print color, additional markings, etc. An example of something to look out for is a seller that offers a wide range of dates and mints in similar wrappers. There are a lot of "Cincinnatti Branch Federal Reserve Bank of Cleveland" and "Federal Reserve Bank of Cleveland" rolls out there that are re-wraps. I've seen eBay sellers with CBFRBC rolls from 1944, 1950, and 1957 all with exactly the same markings (and all pristine end coins to boot). Banks ordered roll papers in batches, and no two batches are alike. A good example of this is 1954S FRB San Francisco. I'm constantly amazed at how many different styles of wrappers came from SF in 1954. I would not be surprised to come across a CBFRBC 1954S "OBW" roll some day, but I can say with 99.9% certainty it is fake.
A good example of traceability of vintage wrappers is Bank of America. At the bottom of the printing on many vintage BofA NT&SA wrappers there is a very convenient date code (!). The format is 11-XX where XX is the year. The "11" may indicate November, when they may have ordered wrappers for the following year. I've never seen anything other than "11". So, if you find an "OBW" 1955P in a BofA wrapper, and its date code is 11-60, you can be pretty sure it was re-wrapped. I have seen examples of BofA wrappers from both 1 year early (eg leftover 11-55 wrappers used to wrap 1956 coins) and 1 year late (eg leftover 1956 coins wrapped in 11-57 wrappers) but I've never seen what I've determined is an original roll more than 1 year off.
6) This brings up the idea of regionality. You are not going to find a CBFRBC 1954S because most 1954S would have been rolled by West Coast banks. I've seen 1954S Cents in Los Angeles, San Francisco, Portland, and Seattle banks but never in a Denver or bank further East. There are of course exceptions, especially in 1956 and later where you will find 1956D in all the West Coast bank wrappers since no coins were minted in San Francisco in 1956. But you won't find an original 1956P roll from a West Coast bank.
7) Sorry, but there are no more 1955P OBW out there. Some folks on this forum would disagree with me, and in fact there may be a few 55P OBW tucked-away, but I seriously doubt it. Same is true for 1944D, and now increasingly for 1946S and 1956D.
8) Last tip: be wary of single rolls for sale. It's harder to figure out if singles are re-wraps. I've personally never purchased a large group (10 or more rolls) all the same that were re-wraps. Of course if you open a couple rolls and find them to be re-wraps, then you have an ethical problem of how to deal with the rest of the rolls...
Here is my quick analysis of a few eBay examples from listings ending soon (disclaimer: I am not saying the sellers re-wrapped these or even knows these are re-wraps, nor can I for sure say I am correct. They may have purchased them in this state and are just passing them along). And some below I think may be legit:
Ahh, come on!
Too bright, crimp too perfect
Plug end too loose, end coin too bright
Looks good, I may bid
A Batdorf beauty
Too PrettyAre you a gambler?
A toned beauty, but crimp looks fuzzy
Now some of you will complain that I've given away too many secrets. And some of you will disagree with me 100% on all I've said. Let's hear it all as I love the discussion of OBW rolls. Share your tips, sling your arrows.
RayP
http://macrocoins.com
<< <i>buy direct from the u.s. mint. >>
.......and just hope they put 'em in the CORRECT wrappers!
<< <i>You CAN roll your own
......lee, that brings back memories! my father used to roll his own................prince albert and bugler came to mind.
I used to roll my own as well but it wasn't Prince Albert!
The name is LEE!
I used to roll my own as well but it wasn't Prince Albert!
......i can relate!
Most of the coins in an original roll will be contributed by one or two die pairs.
So look for small die scratches or other die markers that are identical on many (but usually not all)
of the coins in the roll.
<< <i>3) Fuzzy crimping. Many re-wraps have fuzzy crimping on the re-wrapped end. If both ends are fuzzy, that's still no guarantee. A common ploy for this type of roll is to ship the roll in a Nickel tube. Nearly every roll I've received in a Nickel tube has been a re-wrap, so beware. >>
I'm not so sure about that. I think this has a lot more to do more with the paper quality than anything else. Rolls made from high quality paper tend to have crimped ends that look "waxy" or glossy in appearance. On the other hand, rolls made from lower quality paper have a propensity to be "fuzzy" right from the start, as the rotary action of the wrapping machine causes the fibers of the paper to flake apart.
<< <i>Looks good, I may bid >>
Really? Now to me, that looks like it violates your own set of guidelines... the end coins are way too brilliant, and the crimp is "too perfect" as you say. Also not helping is the fact that the same seller just sold an "OBW" roll of 1955 plain Lincolns today, which to me was an obvious fake... definitely looks like it was once opened and rather crudely re-sealed by hand... yet it still managed to fetch $71.00. Amazing!
Hoard the keys.
<< <i>
<< <i>Looks good, I may bid >>
Really? Now to me, that looks like it violates your own set of guidelines... the end coins are way too brilliant, and the crimp is "too perfect" as you say. Also not helping is the fact that the same seller just sold an "OBW" roll of 1955 plain Lincolns today, which to me was an obvious fake... definitely looks like it was once opened and rather crudely re-sealed by hand... yet it still managed to fetch $71.00. Amazing! >>
I happen to know this seller and have received true OBW from him in the past. I don't think he re-wraps himself, though he obviously does get some re-wraps and sells them as original (eg the 55P you mention) so caveat emptor. The 56D I pointed out has all good characteristics: imperfect crimp, especially with the extra flap and the gnarly twist to the paper, yet no fuzziness indicating a re-wrap; bright but lightly toned end coins, with spots even; I don't know about the bank, I can't find any info on it, so before I bid I would have to do more research. It is defunct, but I don't know when it went under.
I think someone stole this roll for $11.50.
RayP
http://macrocoins.com
roadrunner
<< <i>I'm always more interested in the coins themselves than the wrappers or stories. If the coins stink, who cares if it's obw? If the coins are nice, who cares if it's not obw?
roadrunner >>
OBW's have a market on their own. It's like buying an unopened proof set. There's that chance of getting PF69 DCAMs. But they must be truly unopened, or someone else already got the gems out of there. It is a separate collecting bug than collecting the coins themselves, and appeals to those who like to gamble. But many folks will never even open the roll, so never know what the coins look like at all. They could stink, and be worth a premium, because the roll is OBW.
RayP
http://macrocoins.com
Even those 55-p rolls were probably searched for the big DDO but the die-2 is easy to miss so they might be in searched rolls.
It's often worth searching again even if it's been searched.
<< <i>Most opened rolls have only been searched for certain things, maybe they only looked for gems but ignored varieties.
Even those 55-p rolls were probably searched for the big DDO but the die-2 is easy to miss so they might be in searched rolls.
It's often worth searching again even if it's been searched.
This is very true. I think OBW rolls are overrated. Realistically, you have just as good a shot at finding beautiful gems or varieties in tubed/non-original rolls. Keep in mind, a lot of people collect rolls just for the sake of owning a full roll of coins. Not everyone is necessarily interested in varieties or high grades, and probably wouldn't know what to look for even if it was staring them right in the face. I speak from personal experience on this.
For instance, I bought several original rolls of 1956-D BU cents myself recently. All I did was spot-check them really quick to make sure they were all BU and that they were the right count. Other than that, I have zero interest in checking each one by grade, or to pull out the loupe on each one to try and find one of those D/D RPMs. To me, it's just not worth my time and effort. And if I did find happen to find something, my enthusiasm would be tempered by the fact that I'm now stuck with a 49-count roll in need of a replacement coin. The only ones I check with any degree of seriousness are the true key varieties, such as the 1955 DDO, 1958 DDO, and 1969-S DDO, and a few others. I'll *grudgingly* check the mintmarks on the 1944-D and 1946-S cents sometimes too, but that's about it.
I guess you could say that varieties and high-grades just aren't my "thing."
TD
<< <i>
<< <i>For instance, I bought several original rolls of 1956-D BU cents myself recently. All I did was spot-check them really quick to make sure they were all BU and that they were the right count. Other than that, I have zero interest in checking each one by grade, or to pull out the loupe on each one to try and find one of those D/D RPMs. To me, it's just not worth my time and effort. And if I did find happen to find something, my enthusiasm would be tempered by the fact that I'm now stuck with a 49-count roll in need of a replacement coin. The only ones I check with any degree of seriousness are the true key varieties, such as the 1955 DDO, 1958 DDO, and 1969-S DDO, and a few others. I'll *grudgingly* check the mintmarks on the 1944-D and 1946-S cents sometimes too, but that's about it. >>
Go ahead and send those 56D's to me and I'll check them for varieties for you
http://macrocoins.com
<< <i>
<< <i>....Wrap? I was wondering what the diagnostics may be to determine if a roll is an OBW roll. I know the crimping has a big impact and also the wrapper itself. Is there wrappers that were not introduced until X year? Did all wrappers consist of regular paper (example: String & Sons current bank wrapper) or wrapped in a different type of material? What do you use for diagnostics? Any tips you'd give to anyone who plans on buying some in the future?
I did a quick search for this but didn't find a thread in which it is a compilation of good tips - just mainly opinions saying "fake" or "real". Also, I believe this would prove to be a good reference thread for the future too.
So what do you say? >>
Over the years I've purchased thousands of paper rolls, from collectors, dealers, on eBay, etc. My "true OBW" hit rate for eBay is about 50%, and for sight-seen rolls around 90%. I focus on Lincoln Wheat Cents, so some of my observations may not correlate to Memorials or other denominations, but here are a few tips:
1) The end coins need to have some toning. Most rolls I've opened that have bright end coins have been re-wrapped. You can see this kind of roll on eBay. Imagine a roll of copper coins from 1944 where the end coin, exposed to the air, looked mint-fresh. I can't. I guess the sellers that re-roll coins think that it is a plus to have perfect end coins, and in fact I am glad they tout that characteristic because it's the first clue that it is not an original roll. That said, I did purchase a group of 100 rolls of 54D, 55D, and 58D from Seattle Branch FRB SF that were stored in a sealed coffee can. All end coins were perfect, so I know there are exceptions.
2) Perfect crimping. I have yet to find an OBW roll that has perfect crimps, with the possible exception of Batdorf rolls. Most every perfect-crimped roll I've opened has been a re-wrap. Most true OBW are pretty ugly, loose, and gnarly. I'm talking about the "open" end on pre-wraps (non-Batdorf) rolls. The pre-crimped end, with or without paper plug, should be perfect.
3) Fuzzy crimping. Many re-wraps have fuzzy crimping on the re-wrapped end. If both ends are fuzzy, that's still no guarantee. A common ploy for this type of roll is to ship the roll in a Nickel tube. Nearly every roll I've received in a Nickel tube has been a re-wrap, so beware.
If the roll passes 1-2-3 above, more research is in order.
4) The bank noted on the wrapper should actually have been in business under the name on the wrapper in the year the coins were minted. It's pretty easy to look up bank histories on Google. I've published a couple of fraudulent wrappings on the group and will continue to do so when I see them. Please do the same and we'll all learn a little more about bank history and fraud prevention. Here's an example of what I'm talking about:
Fake 1949S OBW
5) The roll is of the correct vintage. At this point, I can look at an OBW roll and based on the bank and year I can tell you if it's wrapper is of the correct vintage 90% of the time. Printing characteristics, fonts, print color, additional markings, etc. An example of something to look out for is a seller that offers a wide range of dates and mints in similar wrappers. There are a lot of "Cincinnatti Branch Federal Reserve Bank of Cleveland" and "Federal Reserve Bank of Cleveland" rolls out there that are re-wraps. I've seen eBay sellers with CBFRBC rolls from 1944, 1950, and 1957 all with exactly the same markings (and all pristine end coins to boot). Banks ordered roll papers in batches, and no two batches are alike. A good example of this is 1954S FRB San Francisco. I'm constantly amazed at how many different styles of wrappers came from SF in 1954. I would not be surprised to come across a CBFRBC 1954S "OBW" roll some day, but I can say with 99.9% certainty it is fake.
A good example of traceability of vintage wrappers is Bank of America. At the bottom of the printing on many vintage BofA NT&SA wrappers there is a very convenient date code (!). The format is 11-XX where XX is the year. The "11" may indicate November, when they may have ordered wrappers for the following year. I've never seen anything other than "11". So, if you find an "OBW" 1955P in a BofA wrapper, and its date code is 11-60, you can be pretty sure it was re-wrapped. I have seen examples of BofA wrappers from both 1 year early (eg leftover 11-55 wrappers used to wrap 1956 coins) and 1 year late (eg leftover 1956 coins wrapped in 11-57 wrappers) but I've never seen what I've determined is an original roll more than 1 year off.
6) This brings up the idea of regionality. You are not going to find a CBFRBC 1954S because most 1954S would have been rolled by West Coast banks. I've seen 1954S Cents in Los Angeles, San Francisco, Portland, and Seattle banks but never in a Denver or bank further East. There are of course exceptions, especially in 1956 and later where you will find 1956D in all the West Coast bank wrappers since no coins were minted in San Francisco in 1956. But you won't find an original 1956P roll from a West Coast bank.
7) Sorry, but there are no more 1955P OBW out there. Some folks on this forum would disagree with me, and in fact there may be a few 55P OBW tucked-away, but I seriously doubt it. Same is true for 1944D, and now increasingly for 1946S and 1956D.
8) Last tip: be wary of single rolls for sale. It's harder to figure out if singles are re-wraps. I've personally never purchased a large group (10 or more rolls) all the same that were re-wraps. Of course if you open a couple rolls and find them to be re-wraps, then you have an ethical problem of how to deal with the rest of the rolls...
Here is my quick analysis of a few eBay examples from listings ending soon (disclaimer: I am not saying the sellers re-wrapped these or even knows these are re-wraps, nor can I for sure say I am correct. They may have purchased them in this state and are just passing them along). And some below I think may be legit:
Ahh, come on!
Too bright, crimp too perfect
Plug end too loose, end coin too bright
Looks good, I may bid
A Batdorf beauty
Too PrettyAre you a gambler?
A toned beauty, but crimp looks fuzzy
Now some of you will complain that I've given away too many secrets. And some of you will disagree with me 100% on all I've said. Let's hear it all as I love the discussion of OBW rolls. Share your tips, sling your arrows.
>>
Thanks for the post.
To me original and random are nearly synonymous. It's not so much a
question of whether or not the coins were actually rolled in the year of
issue as a group but whether or not a group of coins haven't been pick-
ed over by any means whatsoever. What difference does it make to me
if a '55 cent roll is sold to me by someone who knows it can't contain the
DDO because of the place/ time it was released or if he went through
and searched rolls and removed all of them. Either way I don't get the
DDO and the seller knew it. By the same token if a very nonsophisticated
collector put together a roll of castoff '55-P's and includes the DDO it har-
dly matters that the roll isn't original either.
If rolls are opened and resealed as is regardless of what's in them then
they are still original in the sense that's important to me. No doubt there
would be a great deal of overlap between what the two of us call original
though.
Usually only 7 to 15 die pair will appear in a bag and 3 or 5 in a roll. If a
roll has large numbers of die pairs represented then it can not be an or-
iginal roll. But having few die pair doesn't prove that choice or gem or even
a run of scarce varieties hasn't been removed. Rolls can be cherry picked
without even being opened. If you have a large number of '55 cent rolls,
for instance, you can just spot check a few rolls to see if there are any of
the DDO's. You can sell the rest in good confidence that you're not giving
away rare cents and still get a premium for them. The buyer didn't get tru-
ly original rolls even though they appeared to be.
As you say there are many dates that are more likely to be picked over
than others. Many of the clad dates were hardly saved at all and when these
are also picked over it can make them pretty hard to find. Of course the orig-
inal bank wrapped rolls that are so prized were already going out of style by
1965 so the rolls that do exist tend to be of other types. Almost all rolls of
1969 (and many date quarters) are actually mint set rolls.
<< <i>To me original and random are nearly synonymous. It's not so much a
question of whether or not the coins were actually rolled in the year of
issue as a group but whether or not a group of coins haven't been pick-
ed over by any means whatsoever. What difference does it make to me
if a '55 cent roll is sold to me by someone who knows it can't contain the
DDO because of the place/ time it was released or if he went through
and searched rolls and removed all of them. Either way I don't get the
DDO and the seller knew it. By the same token if a very nonsophisticated
collector put together a roll of castoff '55-P's and includes the DDO it har-
dly matters that the roll isn't original either.
If rolls are opened and resealed as is regardless of what's in them then
they are still original in the sense that's important to me. No doubt there
would be a great deal of overlap between what the two of us call original
though.
Usually only 7 to 15 die pair will appear in a bag and 3 or 5 in a roll. If a
roll has large numbers of die pairs represented then it can not be an or-
iginal roll. But having few die pair doesn't prove that choice or gem or even
a run of scarce varieties hasn't been removed. Rolls can be cherry picked
without even being opened. If you have a large number of '55 cent rolls,
for instance, you can just spot check a few rolls to see if there are any of
the DDO's. You can sell the rest in good confidence that you're not giving
away rare cents and still get a premium for them. The buyer didn't get tru-
ly original rolls even though they appeared to be. .... >>
I agree with you on the concept of "original roll". Others have pointed out that folks search rolls for different things. Most dealers I know could not care less about varieties other than the "big" ones like 55DDO, 44D/S, etc. All they care about in rolls are MS67RD gems. I've purchased rolls from a local dealer who went through them for gems only, and I've found many nice varieties like top 100 RPMs or nice but minor DDOs. But over the years I've probably missed as much as I've found, as my knowledge has grown and I now know what to look for.
But I was responding to the OPs question specifically. Obviously there is a lot more involved in OBW/original roll discussion than just how to tell if a roll is truly OBW.
One comment on your post: finding truly fresh, original OBW rolls that are not picked over in any way, including being castoffs from a larger lot in which nothing interesting was found, is a major rarity these days. I am sure there are hoards of rolls still around from the 60's roll craze, and probably sealed bags of later dates, but other than these situations most everything has been considered in some way before being sold.
I have another observation to make. Most true OBW or Original rolls, since few die pairs are represented, will have multiples of any particular variety if they have any at all. To me this is a trademark of originality, at least from the variety-seeker's perspective. Now, I've looked through many rolls that had ONE of a variety in it. I've always figured that the roll was picked-over by a collector years ago, and he left a "token" variety in it for future seekers so they don't feel they came up empty-handed. Anyone else have that experience or interpretation?
RayP
http://macrocoins.com
<< <i> Anyone else have that experience or interpretation?
>>
It does seem that a single example turns up more than the odds would dictate.
But, of course, it might largely be simply that we notice these single examples
only when it's something special. I went through a really nice bag of '82-P 25c's.
There were several runs of well struck coins and a few runs of coins from new
dies. It was really a beutiful bag but a little heart breaking because everything
was a near miss in one way or another. Incredibly there was a single coin in it
which wasn't a near miss. In this particular case it "belonged" in the sense that
it was from a well represented die pair but all the others of that sequence were
much later strikes (about 60,000th to 80,000th). This one was out of place be-
cause it was VEDS (about 1000th).
Coins do get out of sequence because of various forces and we're far more lik-
ely to notice the winners. There's also a single coin from a die pair in many rolls
even if this coin isn't often a winner.
But, yes, I do believe there's something to what you say.
I found over 100 of this one.
and all I can say is The Best Way To Determine If A Roll Is In An Original is to OPEN IT.
Hoard the keys.
Ebay link
<< <i>have any of you had success with tail to tail obw rolls such as this:
Ebay link >>
Those "Tails/Tails" rolls are usually a scam. Either they're self-rolled, or they come from a batch of OBW rolls already determined to be common dates.
<< <i>have any of you had success with tail to tail obw rolls such as this:
Ebay link >>
Most likely will be 57D or 58D
http://macrocoins.com