What is interesting, is that with the Seated Quarters, the later dates are worth much more in the same grade as business strikes than their proof counterparts. This must not be the case with the Seated Dimes or at least with this particular date. I do think Jason should be able to return the coin for a refund as it is not what was advertised, regardless of the time lapse.
If you suspected it was not as described you should have sent it back for a refund immediately. >>
>>
and also. I don't know very many dealers, not to mention ebayers, that will give an unconditional gurantee as to what the opinion of PCGS will be on a raw coin. If you didn't think it was likely a proof when you first laid eyes on it, you should have returned it immediately. To take any action now just because PCGS slabbed it as they did, would just be ridiculous. It sounds like you may have thought that it might have been a proof, otherwise you probably would have returned it immediately and not have gone through the whole slabbing game.
Now, all that being said, how about some pics of the coin because it sounds like one that I might have interest in.
<< <i>Is it possible for PCGS to make a mistake on this determination?
I'm just askin'.... >>
Of course it is. IMO, klondike95 is being dragged through the ringer without merit here. Again, it would be one thing if they gave you a money back guarantee that the coin would slab by a TPG as a proof. Aside from that, we obviously need to rely on our own eyes and "gut feeling" about a coin as to whether it's a proof or not, AT or NT, cleaned or not, original or not, etc. etc.
<< <i>I'm curious to see an image of the coin as well as to find out the PCGS grade or if it was returned in a genuine holder only. By the way, if this is the seller I think it is (and I don't know that to be the case) then the images provided in the auctions always scare me away by their poor quality. >>
And even from the poor quality image, one can usually tell it is a poor quality, cleaned, or overgraded coin. Since they have so many listings, these are the type of sellers for which it is very helpful to exclude them from ebay searches.
<< <i>Sure enough the coin came back as a business strike, I emailed Dan and this was the email he sent back. Paypal and Ebay feedback times have passed so how would you deal with him?
"Jason You are a PROBLEM Buyer. It is Difficult if not impossible For me To believe anything you have To Say.
I have placed You on the Ebay Blocked Bidder list. Please Do your Fishing Elsewhere
Regards Dan" >>
Question. Did you tell the seller when you received the coin that you were going to send it to PCGS because you believed that it may not be a proof?
Just to put things in perspective CDN Quarterly 1 July 10th 1874 Arrow 10ct MS60 Bid 350.00 Proof 60 420.00 MS63 720.00 PF63 900 MS64 1400.00 PF64 1850.00 I doubt anyone one be buying a 64 or better raw off ebay for anywhere close to those figures. So not a huge difference in price. Did the coin BB or did it grade So a raw coin purchase over 30 days ago, suspect to begin with comes back MS instead of PF. Unless previously discuss with seller, I see no real gripe. Guess it's me, and one side only presented so far.
<< <i>If 60 days has past since his cc statement (if he in fact paid with a CC). His only recourse is to sue which is probably not economically realistic
More misinformation, it depends on the CC, Amex (if he used that) allows for more then 60 days.
Even some Visa's do as well.
Steve >>
I take you at your word and stand corrected. is that new policy as my cards always offered 60 days ?
SOCIALIZED MEDICINE: The wealthiest class treats the lowest class and sends the bill to the middle class.
I would've thought that the OP would have provided a link to the auction, and a more complete record of the correspondence by now. Hmmmm. Why not?
You can't solicit opinions based on one set of facts and garner sympathy for your position without being expected to prove your point with good documentation.
Otherwise, it's just all smoke!! The blade has two edges, not just one.
Q: Are You Printing Money? Bernanke: Not Literally
coin was marketed and sold as a proof. pcgs says it is not a proof. seller (dealer) refuses a return.
what part of the fully story are you missing? geez.
seller (dealer) does not back up his merchandise as it is described by him and tells the buyer to go away.
not shocking really. the difference between a wannabe dealer and a real dealer who has the class to do the right thing no matter the amount of time that has gone by. A few months is nothing. We are not talking 5 years.
and i normally do not go out of my way to mention such things.. but manofcoins.. should you really be the one trying to take the high road here??
If you suspected it was not as described you should have sent it back for a refund immediately., >>
IMO, if someone bought something on eBay and 2 months later decides they don't want it (regardless of reasoning), do you really think the seller would even consider a return?
The problem with this argument, is the OP has not even given up his ebay ID, and has very selectively responded to questions. You cannot toolhaus the OP from this thread, so how can you say the OP is any better in their transactions?
I went back to the original question....as I read it. I'm a bit in the dark as you wrote "I emailed Dan...." yet we don't know what yo said. Did you want a refund? Did you ask for a partial refund? Did you email just to state that the coin was a BS not a Proof? Sounds like you may not wanted to return the coin.
Anyway, my answer to your question "Paypal and Ebay feedback times have passed so how would you deal with him?" is simple......I would not deal with him, ever (if I was you)!
If your intention was to 'out him' as a bad seller, that's probably been accomplished....yet without knowing what you emailed, or hearing Dan's side, I reserve judgment.
Out of 25,609 Feedback received only 87? I think thats a fairly good ratio...unless I'm reading the link provided incorrectly? >>
you are reading correctly. the point i was making about reading some of the comments is you find the very similair problems taking place with the results the OP encountered.
for example:
buyer says "Aksed if coin cleaned,said no, PCGS grade cleaned. Refused refund. BEWARE"
seller says "Coin Not Cleaned.. Easily Worth Market Value .. Problem PCGS Buyer"
-------
problem buyer for wanting a coin that has not been cleaned. who are you going to believe? pcgs or this ebay seller?
and honestly... if you sell a lot of stuff on ebay you are going to run into a problem buyer every once in a while. the issue i have is that some of these buyers seem VERY REASONABLE TO ME yet the seller treats them all the same.
The problem with this argument, is the OP has not even given up his ebay ID, and has very selectively responded to questions. You cannot toolhaus the OP from this thread, so how can you say the OP is any better in their transactions? >>
rgcoinguy.. you have been around long enough to know exactly who seateddime is.
you are coming up with a straw man argument.
in this case he is the buyer. the buyer has stated a nice clean and simple case. the buyer expected a proof and did not get one. he got a circ strike.
the ebay seller.. said go away. his feedback shows this is how he operates.
<< <i>32 Negative 50 Neutral 05 Withdrawn 87 Total
Seems easy to determine where the problem is. >>
32 Negs out of 21,000 feedback 99.85% I believe as a Raw coin seller. Yeesh. I am not necessarily defending the seller in this instance but don't hang him on his feedback.
SOCIALIZED MEDICINE: The wealthiest class treats the lowest class and sends the bill to the middle class.
rgcoinguy.. you have been around long enough to know exactly who seateddime is.
you are coming up with a straw man argument.
in this case he is the buyer. the buyer has stated a nice clean and simple case. the buyer expected a proof and did not get one. he got a circ strike.
the ebay seller.. said go away. his feedback shows this is how he operates. >>
In fact, I do not know most people here's ebay ID's. I have no reason not to believe the OP, and I do have my doubts as raised in the first page or two about the seller.
But I do see some issues with the way the OP has not provided more info. They bought a raw coin on ebay. It was a seated dime. The seller is a volume seller of raw coins on ebay. Sure, maybe he could have handled this differently, but we are only getting one side of the story, and in my little brain, it doesn't appear the full story. I am not the only one to state this, and manofcoins is not the only other one.
The OP goes by the name seateddime, and posts in the seated coin forum a lot (which I learned by clicking his signature line). He should have known (IMO) better than the seller, if it was a proof and could have returned it when he received it within the 7 day return period.
Edited to add: Alternately, a link to the auction, and more information about when it was purchased and the conversations with the seller, would be more fair to the seller, IMO.
ok. i guess i am a complete idiot for expecting a dealer who sells a coin as a proof that turns out to be a circ strike to take it back minus the cost of shipping both ways even if two months have passed and the buyer kindly got a paid opinion from a highly regarded TPG to back up his claim.
geez. low standards around here. doing the right thing is just not to be expected anymore.
<< <i>ok. i guess i am a complete idiot for expecting a dealer who sells a coin as a proof that turns out to be a circ strike to take it back minus the cost of shipping both ways even if two months have passed and the buyer kindly got a paid opinion from a highly regarded TPG to back up his claim. >>
Based on my reading of the situation, I would expect the same thing you expected.
<< <i> geez. low standards around here. doing the right thing is just not to be expected anymore. >>
I would just expect higher standards from this board in giving the full details of the situation when they are complaining about a seller in an online post. Even your comment you are making assumptions. The OP never said two months, it could have been two years ago.
Just to take the other side, I'm assuming it's been a couple of months now, how does the seller even know you sent the same coin you received. Their are just as many bad buyers as sellers on the 'bay you know. He doesn't know you from Adam so has no way to know you are an honest person. I can promise that if someone I did not know well contacted me months after a sale and said the same thing you did I would assume another ebay scammer and tell them where to get off the bus.
And by the way I hardly ever sell anything on ebay but have bought quite a bit.
"Nice coin. See scan." Is his standard description, save for the title.
As a newbie, I paid strong money for a coin represented to be MS63 by this seller that was AU Whizzed. I simply did not know it at the time. When I learned that the coin was whizzed, seller would not even acknowledge.
Any seller that would sell a whizzed coin sans disclosure deserves a case of amebic dysentery. I have zero respect for Dan. I sincerely hope his coin business fails.
Also since many seated coins can be very tricky as to whether they are proofs or business strikes, I don't find it unusual at all that the buyer sent the coin in to PCGS for verification.
this is a perplexing statement given the nature of what was said earlier in the post---The fact remains the coin was misrepresented as to its method of manufacture and the seller should take the coin back no questions asked in this case regardless of how much time has passed. the coin may be difficult to attribute method of manufacture but the only person in the transaction not bound by his decision is the seller?? and then the buyer isn't bound by any time limit??
absent any response as to whether the seller was contacted and the topic of authenticity as a Proof was discussed in terms of a return after TPG verification, logic would lead me to believe that the buyer accepted the coin as a Proof and thus forfeited any return privelage. he should have gone with his initial judgement.
not to excuse the seller for mis-attributing the coin as a Proof, but shouldn't the buyer also bear some responsibility???
I think I may have been one of the few eBay customers that was ever able to return a SNAD coin for a refund from Klondike95. That happened several years ago. His demeanor over the transaction has prevented me from ever repeating business with him.
There are a lot of volume raw coin sellers on ebay. Most have reasonable return policies, as the seller in the OP seems to.
The OP claims to be a specialist in seated dimes. The OP thought the coin wasn't a proof when he received it.
The OP DIDN'T returne the coin as per the ebay terms he bought it under.
The OP Is not answering a lot of legitimate questions in the thread the OP started.
This seller may or may not have done the OP wrong, but how can anyone who has read this thread, make that conclusion?
Edited to add: By god, this is ebay, and this forum rants on buying raw coins on ebay as being stupid, come on folks, lets get some consistency going here and actually look at what has been written in this thread, and MORE IMPORTANTLY, WHAT HASN'T.
I totally agree with fc. Total misrepresentation. I know if this were me as the seller, or 99% of other forum members, we'd all have egg on our faces in selling an unc for proof money. And we'd bend over backwards to make it right including paying postage both ways, etc. It doesn't matter how long it takes to bring that to the seller's attention. And I'm sure Klondike95 would recognize his coin in a heartbeat. How many unc or proof 1874 dimes has he handled in the last 2 months? All it takes is remembering one major mark, spot, etc on the coin. A proof coin should be easily determined for this type just be feeling the edge for sharpness and depth of strike. Uncs have beveled edges and lack sharpness in the reeding, denticles, etc.
Hopefully you at least mentioned to K95 in an email that you were sending off the coin for certification. Fwiw the major auction houses frequently call coins proof when they are unc or vice versa and they do not stand by that attribution. That are only responsible for it being an authentic US mint product (ie not counterfeit).
One would have hoped for higher standards from a forum member. But I have met this same fate once or twice on forum members auctions. One time I got a pos cleaned better date XF45 Barber quarter from one of the leading Barber collectors here. The photo did not show the stark white surfaces. His ebay description was "all original." I took a 40% hit on that coin though I did mention to the member that his coin was obviously cleaned and that his description was a total fabrication. He never bothered to reply. And I didn't even "out" the turd. It just wasn't worth extending my headache. I learned my lesson about putting too much trust in forum membership when it happens to include ebay.
87 total negs/neutrals on ebay is a HUGE amount, even for someone with 25,000+ replies. We all know that <1% of sellers will rat on a poor transaction. Most just don't know any better or in the minorit of cases....don't want to let others know they were taken. When you see even a couple of transactions about whizzed, doctored, massively overgraded coins, you don't need 96% feedback (ie 1000 negs) to tell you something stinks. And who cares about the 99% of the ebay buyers who know less than you about coins? It's your transaction that counts. And we're sorry that seateddime happens to know a thing or two about seated dimes. Knowledgeble collectors are for the most part an ebay seller's worst nightmare. Most just want the dumbed down buyers. Most don't realize they were scammed until way too late. And how could K95 definitively declare this coin a proof when it clearly wasn't? Either he's no expert or he's just a sheister....or possibly both.
Those proclaiming "sad sack sour grapes" are probably the same type of people who would follow the business model already set down by K95 and many other ebay sellers....."let the buyer eat it." I have a feeling that if seateddime wanted asked to return that coin right away, that it would have been refused on the grounds that it was what it was. Period. Don't count on the fact that you can contact a seller upfront if you have reservations. I did that once to a 100% FB seller coin company and they said I could return the coin if I didn't like it. Well, they changed their mind once I had the coin in hand and refused the return. 100% FB doesn't guarantee anything. And in this case they didn't remain a 100% FB ebayer for very long.
<< <i>I totally agree with fc. Total misrepresentation. I know if this were me as the seller, or 99% of other forum members, we'd all have egg on our faces in selling an unc for proof money. >>
RR - One of the people I really respect here, it has been pointed out, there is almost no difference in the price of a proof vs uncirc of this coin in this thread.
I've got to say- the amount of evidence that's considered satisfactory for reaching a definitive decision about an issue is really eye opening. I guess it shouldn't surprise me, but still...
I know if this were me as the seller, or 99% of other forum members, we'd all have egg on our faces in selling an unc for proof money. And we'd bend over backwards to make it right including paying postage both ways, etc. It doesn't matter how long it takes to bring that to the seller's attention. since the OP won't answer when asked directly, we really don't know that he "paid Proof money" or what the coin graded or pretty much anything else.
A proof coin should be easily determined for this type just be feeling the edge for sharpness and depth of strike. Uncs have beveled edges and lack sharpness in the reeding, denticles, etc. why didn't the specialist forum member readily ID it a Mint State coin then??
my experiences with eBay and the BST has made things clear to me-----i have learned that i get in trouble when i start discussing the reasons for my wanting to return an item. i just need to make a decision and then inform the seller if i intend to keep the coin or return it. once i decide to keep a coin it's a done deal and i have to live with my decision.
but that's just me and what time has taught me. i figure i'm in the minority.
<< <i>I've got to say- the amount of evidence that's considered satisfactory for reaching a definitive decision about an issue is really eye opening. I guess it shouldn't surprise me, but still... >>
Can you provide the evidence the OP provided for me, I guess I missed it? Please?
Edited to add, sorry, missed the point of the post....
<< <i>ok. i guess i am a complete idiot for expecting a dealer who sells a coin as a proof that turns out to be a circ strike to take it back minus the cost of shipping both ways even if two months have passed and the buyer kindly got a paid opinion from a highly regarded TPG to back up his claim. >>
Based on my reading of the situation, I would expect the same thing you expected. >>
I would agree 100%, IF the buyer decided to return the coin once he had the chance to view it in-hand. Not only after the coin is viewed in-hand and then sent to PCGS for their opinion/grading. This scenario should hold true for any buyer but especially one with advanced knowledge of what their buying. Again, if I were the seller and I genuinely thought that said coin was a proof (which is certainly viable), I would be very upset about this thread.
I can't speak for seated dime on why he didn't just return it. But it really in irrelevant to me. It came back a proof from PCGS, what more "proof" do you need. And as far as the price of the proof or unc being close in price, is 20-30% close enough of a loss for everyone here? It isn't for me. A proof is much more money in all grades. If you look at blue sheet in the 61-62 grades where more than likely this coin resides, the difference is greater. 50% by my older bluesheet. CDN and BS don't sell coins, people do. And again, what difference does it make? The buyer wanted a proof. If I'm looking for a proof seated dime for type, more than likely I don't want a MS coin in it's place. Reverse is true for those looking for a MS 1874 dime for type or variety. They don't want a proof in its place. Imagine if you bid on a PF62 trade dollar for your Proof only type set and seller XXX sends you a MS62. Are you happy?
From my 35 yrs in the seated area, in almost every case of a common seated type coin, the proof is more valuable than the unc...and more highly sought after as a rule because of the superior striking details and the reflective fields......despite the fact that it's often more common in the totality of grades PF60-63....hence the higher price. To most collectors there is something superior and desired about an early proof coin that never circulated. We don't have time to do a complete psych exam on SD and K95 so we'll just have to rely on the fact that the buyer claims they didn't receive a proof coin....unless of course he is fabricating the entire story and submitted an entirely different coin to PCGS just to defame K95. We've had some pretty good stories here, but that would be a first.
Again, if I were the seller and I genuinely thought that said coin was a proof (which is certainly viable), I would be very upset about this thread
Ditto.....I too as a seller would be very upset that my lack of knowledge could be made public (not to mention my deficient customer relations) and hopefully the buyer would have given me a chance to make it all right. It appears the buyer did afford that opportunity. The seller apparently feels he could not have been mistaken about the proof status of the coin. It's one thing for the TPG's as well as experts to sometimes disagree on the proof status of 3c nickels, shield and lib nickels, and Indian cents as in many cases there are almost no differences...and no reeding to assist. In some cases proof dies were used to make business strikes. That is not the case for 1874 dimes.
I'm not saying I couldn't have made the same mistake on this coin. What I am saying is that if the TPG differed with my opinion, I would have made it right for the buyer assuming they didn't switch coins on me. And even if they did, if it were the same grade and value, I'd accept the return and move on. This is precisely why I don't sell on ebay.
A sinister part of me is glad that the opposing party hasn't rushed to respond, kissing everyones in the rear as is usually the case in this type of thread.
SOCIALIZED MEDICINE: The wealthiest class treats the lowest class and sends the bill to the middle class.
<< <i>I can't speak for seated dime on why he didn't just return it. But it really in irrelevant to me. It came back a proof from PCGS, what more "proof" do you need. And as far as the price of the proof or unc being close in price, is 20-30% close enough of a loss for everyone here? It isn't for me. A proof is much more money in all grades. If you look at blue sheet in the 61-62 grades where more than likely this coin resides, the difference is greater. 50% by my older bluesheet. CDN and BS don't sell coins, people do. And again, what difference does it make? The buyer wanted a proof. If I'm looking for a proof seated dime for type, more than likely I don't want a MS coin in it's place. Reverse is true for those looking for a MS 1874 dime for type or variety. They don't want a proof in its place. Imagine if you bid on a PF62 trade dollar for your Proof only type set and seller XXX sends you a MS62. Are you happy?
From my 35 yrs in the seated area, in almost every case of a common seated type coin, the proof is more valuable than the unc...and more highly sought after as a rule because of the superior striking details and the reflective fields......despite the fact that it's often more common in the totality of grades PF60-63....hence the higher price. To most collectors there is something superior and desired about an early proof coin that never circulated. We don't have time to do a complete psych exam on SD and K95 so we'll just have to rely on the fact that the buyer claims they didn't receive a proof coin....unless of course he is fabricating the entire story and submitted an entirely different coin to PCGS just to defame K95. We've had some pretty good stories here, but that would be a first.
Again, if I were the seller and I genuinely thought that said coin was a proof (which is certainly viable), I would be very upset about this thread
Ditto.....I too as a seller would be very upset that my lack of knowledge could be made public (not to mention my deficient customer relations) and hopefully the buyer would have given me a chance to make it all right. It appears the buyer did afford that opportunity. The seller apparently feels he could not have been mistaken about the proof status of the coin.
roadrunner >>
All great points. So why won't the OP give us a link to the auction, or more info on his communications with the seller?
The OP did a great hit and run on this thread, several times today.
No real info on what really happened, and no proof of how the deal went down.
Edited to add: I am sure we can talk to the seller and get the other side of this over the weekend. RR, you claim the seller should be upset about his lack of knowledge about the coin, how about the OP? He goes by the nic seateddime.
He wasn't sure enough himself to just send it back, and evidently wanted to make a proof out of it in a pcgs slab. How do you know, from this thread, that the seller didn't try to make it right from the buyer? The only quote the buyer gave, was after he made the buyer mad and was blocked.
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
With all due respect to both parties involved, I think the OP Thread title says it all (exerpt below) and the coin at that time should have been immediately returned which I'm sure would have prevented this entire debacle....
roadrunner, my question would be "When is a done deal a done deal??"
i made this same mistake many years ago in a well documented sale with another forum member which spawned many threads and i was wrong but didn't know it at the time. at a venue like eBay things are even clearer, there is a time allowed for returns that isn't open-ended. i accept and understand that the coin most probably isn't a Proof, but the buyer made a decision not to return it within an unspecified time and it isn't unreasonable for a seller to expect that the buyer is committed to keeping the coin under those circumstances.
my spin on things isn't that the seller is a scumbag for not taking it back. rather, i would think the seller a very generous guy for accepting a return after such a long time.
I did not ask to return the coin nor do I really care that much about.
What I did not like is that when I pointed it out to Klondike his response was not, I am sorry I made an error or would you like to return it or what can I do to make this right.
His response was you are a problem buyer and I am blocking you.
This tells me the seller does not care at all that he misrepresented the coin, he shows no interest in corrected his error but rather took the approach I did something wrong in point out to him his error.
It shows a total lack of honesty on his part and therefore I felt it to be in the best interest of the all to point out this behavior.
His response was that of a thief trying to fool people.
I never have asked for my money back, nor am I asking for it but if the seller had any level on honesty he would have been concerned about his error and would have wanted to correct it without my even having to ask.
This is the ultimate buyer beware kind of seller who will not fix any error he makes.
This is not a grading error but in fact the sale of a lower value business strike as a proof.
His approach prompted this thread. Had he shown ANY concern over his error I would have told him not to worry about it but what really bothers me is how he clearly does not care at all and for that people should know what they are dealing with if they buy from him.
Just last week I was asked an opinion on a coin he was selling and I offered my honest opinion of the coin, I also told the would be buyer I thought he was a fair seller. Now I see I was wrong. This is a buyer beware seller who has a reputation of selling overgraded coins as many people have pointed out to me via PM.
I seldom check PM's but do check emails often jason@seated.org
Buying top quality Seated Dimes in Gem BU and Proof.
<< <i>I did not ask to return the coin nor do I really care that much about.
What I did not like is that when I pointed it out to Klondike his response was not, I am sorry I made an error or would you like to return it or what can I do to make this right.
His response was you are a problem buyer and I am blocking you.
This tells me the seller does not care at all that he misrepresented the coin, he shows no interest in corrected his error but rather took the approach I did something wrong in point out to him his error.
It shows a total lack of honesty on his part and therefore I felt it to be in the best interest of the all to point out this behavior.
His response was that of a thief trying to fool people.
I never have asked for my money back, nor am I asking for it but if the seller had any level on honesty he would have been concerned about his error and would have wanted to correct it without my even having to ask.
This is the ultimate buyer beware kind of seller who will not fix any error he makes.
This is not a grading error but in fact the sale of a lower value business strike as a proof.
His approach prompted this thread. Had he shown ANY concern over his error I would have told him not to worry about it but what really bothers me is how he clearly does not care at all and for that people should know what they are dealing with if they buy from him.
Just last week I was asked an opinion on a coin he was selling and I offered my honest opinion of the coin, I also told the would be buyer I thought he was a fair seller. Now I see I was wrong. This is a buyer beware seller who has a reputation of selling overgraded coins as many people have pointed out to me via PM. >>
So I am thinking along the same lines as rgCoinGuy. When I read the comment, "I really did not care much about returning the coin but the response was really harsh." is the complaint here the response from the seller? If so, get over it & move on.
Did I miss what the coin graded? As was pointed out, not much difference in value. Was that the issue, a 'refund' on the difference?
So many questions, so little answers. __________________________________________
UPDATE:
Just read the answers if what you say is true. No need to link, won't prove or disprove anything IMO.
Only part missing now is the other sides story. Couldn't agree more.
Comments
This must not be the case with the Seated Dimes or at least with this particular date.
I do think Jason should be able to return the coin for a refund as it is not what was advertised, regardless of the time lapse.
Ray
<< <i>
<< <i>You waited too long.
If you suspected it was not as described you should have sent it back for a refund immediately. >>
and
Now, all that being said, how about some pics of the coin because it sounds like one that I might have interest in.
<< <i>Is it possible for PCGS to make a mistake on this determination?
I'm just askin'.... >>
Of course it is. IMO, klondike95 is being dragged through the ringer without merit here. Again, it would be one thing if they gave you a money back guarantee that the coin would slab by a TPG as a proof. Aside from that, we obviously need to rely on our own eyes and "gut feeling" about a coin as to whether it's a proof or not, AT or NT, cleaned or not, original or not, etc. etc.
<< <i>
<< <i>Think about it. Raw coin on eBay. >>
There are plenty of raw coins on eBay that are perfectly fine. OK- I thought about it. >>
Shhhhhh -- let him keep thinking that.
<< <i>I'm curious to see an image of the coin as well as to find out the PCGS grade or if it was returned in a genuine holder only. By the way, if this is the seller I think it is (and I don't know that to be the case) then the images provided in the auctions always scare me away by their poor quality. >>
And even from the poor quality image, one can usually tell it is a poor quality, cleaned, or overgraded coin. Since they have so many listings, these are the type of sellers for which it is very helpful to exclude them from ebay searches.
Somewhere along the line, you got the seller PO'ed and his rather brash e-mail was the last straw.
We only see just one side of this story, how in the heck are you supposed to make a desicion based only on your actions?
"Keep your malarkey filter in good operating order" -Walter Breen
<< <i>Sure enough the coin came back as a business strike, I emailed Dan and this was the email he sent back. Paypal and Ebay feedback times have passed so how would you deal with him?
"Jason You are a PROBLEM Buyer. It is Difficult if not impossible For me To believe anything you have To Say.
I have placed You on the Ebay Blocked Bidder list. Please Do your Fishing Elsewhere
Regards Dan" >>
Question. Did you tell the seller when you received the coin that you were going to send it to PCGS because you believed that it may not be a proof?
CDN Quarterly 1 July 10th
1874 Arrow 10ct
MS60 Bid 350.00 Proof 60 420.00
MS63 720.00 PF63 900
MS64 1400.00 PF64 1850.00
I doubt anyone one be buying a 64 or better raw off ebay for anywhere close to those figures.
So not a huge difference in price.
Did the coin BB or did it grade
So a raw coin purchase over 30 days ago, suspect to begin with comes back MS instead of PF.
Unless previously discuss with seller, I see no real gripe.
Guess it's me, and one side only presented so far.
More misinformation, it depends on the CC, Amex (if he used that) allows for more then 60 days.
Even some Visa's do as well.
Steve
<< <i>Was it represented as proof, and did you pay proof money? I would like to see the original sales description..... >>
Congratulations! You committed to buy the following item:
1874 Proof PR Arrows Seated Liberty Dime J1707
Buying top quality Seated Dimes in Gem BU and Proof.
Buying great coins - monster eye appeal only.
<< <i>If 60 days has past since his cc statement (if he in fact paid with a CC). His only recourse is to sue which is probably not economically realistic
More misinformation, it depends on the CC, Amex (if he used that) allows for more then 60 days.
Even some Visa's do as well.
Steve >>
I take you at your word and stand corrected. is that new policy as my cards always offered 60 days ?
You can't solicit opinions based on one set of facts and garner sympathy for your position without being expected to prove your point with good documentation.
Otherwise, it's just all smoke!! The blade has two edges, not just one.
I knew it would happen.
Why am I a problem buyer? Because Dan sold a coin as a proof that is not? I am now blocked as a bidder because I purchased a proof coin that is not?
Where are the sellers morals?
I guess now I AM a problem buyer.
Buying top quality Seated Dimes in Gem BU and Proof.
Buying great coins - monster eye appeal only.
<< <i>I really did not care much about returning the coin but the response was really harsh. Blocking me as a problem buyer?
Why am I a problem buyer? Because Dan sold a coin as a proof that is not? I am now blocked as a bidder because I purchased a proof coin that is not?
Where are the sellers morals?
I guess now I AM a problem buyer. >>
Wow Jason, you ARE a problem buyer. I'm going to think twice before selling to you again....
seller (dealer) refuses a return.
what part of the fully story are you missing? geez.
seller (dealer) does not back up his merchandise as it is described by him
and tells the buyer to go away.
not shocking really. the difference between a wannabe dealer and
a real dealer who has the class to do the right thing no matter the
amount of time that has gone by. A few months is nothing. We are not
talking 5 years.
and i normally do not go out of my way to mention such things.. but manofcoins..
should you really be the one trying to take the high road here??
50 Neutral
05 Withdrawn
87 Total
Seems easy to determine where the problem is.
<< <i>32 Negative
50 Neutral
05 Withdrawn
87 Total
Seems easy to determine where the problem is. >>
well said.
just read some of his replies.
http://www.toolhaus.org/cgi-bin/negs?User=klondike95&Dirn=Received+by
<< <i>You waited too long.
If you suspected it was not as described you should have sent it back for a refund immediately., >>
IMO, if someone bought something on eBay and 2 months later decides they don't want it (regardless of reasoning), do you really think the seller would even consider a return?
<< <i>
<< <i>32 Negative
50 Neutral
05 Withdrawn
87 Total
Seems easy to determine where the problem is. >>
well said.
just read some of his replies.
http://www.toolhaus.org/cgi-bin/negs?User=klondike95&Dirn=Received+by >>
Out of 25,609 Feedback received only 87? I think thats a fairly good ratio...unless I'm reading the link provided incorrectly?
<< <i>
<< <i>32 Negative
50 Neutral
05 Withdrawn
87 Total
Seems easy to determine where the problem is. >>
well said.
just read some of his replies.
http://www.toolhaus.org/cgi-bin/negs?User=klondike95&Dirn=Received+by >>
The problem with this argument, is the OP has not even given up his ebay ID, and has very selectively responded to questions. You cannot toolhaus the OP from this thread, so how can you say the OP is any better in their transactions?
I went back to the original question....as I read it.
I'm a bit in the dark as you wrote "I emailed Dan...." yet we don't know what yo said.
Did you want a refund? Did you ask for a partial refund? Did you email just to state that the coin was a BS not a Proof?
Sounds like you may not wanted to return the coin.
Anyway, my answer to your question "Paypal and Ebay feedback times have passed so how would you deal with him?" is simple......I would not deal with him, ever (if I was you)!
If your intention was to 'out him' as a bad seller, that's probably been accomplished....yet without knowing what you emailed, or hearing Dan's side, I reserve judgment.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>32 Negative
50 Neutral
05 Withdrawn
87 Total
Seems easy to determine where the problem is. >>
well said.
just read some of his replies.
http://www.toolhaus.org/cgi-bin/negs?User=klondike95&Dirn=Received+by >>
Out of 25,609 Feedback received only 87? I think thats a fairly good ratio...unless I'm reading the link provided incorrectly? >>
you are reading correctly. the point i was making about reading some
of the comments is you find the very similair problems taking place
with the results the OP encountered.
for example:
buyer says "Aksed if coin cleaned,said no, PCGS grade cleaned. Refused refund. BEWARE"
seller says "Coin Not Cleaned.. Easily Worth Market Value .. Problem PCGS Buyer"
-------
problem buyer for wanting a coin that has not been cleaned. who are
you going to believe? pcgs or this ebay seller?
and honestly... if you sell a lot of stuff on ebay you are going to run
into a problem buyer every once in a while. the issue i have is that
some of these buyers seem VERY REASONABLE TO ME yet the seller
treats them all the same.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>32 Negative
50 Neutral
05 Withdrawn
87 Total
Seems easy to determine where the problem is. >>
well said.
just read some of his replies.
http://www.toolhaus.org/cgi-bin/negs?User=klondike95&Dirn=Received+by >>
The problem with this argument, is the OP has not even given up his ebay ID, and has very selectively responded to questions. You cannot toolhaus the OP from this thread, so how can you say the OP is any better in their transactions? >>
rgcoinguy.. you have been around long enough to know exactly who
seateddime is.
you are coming up with a straw man argument.
in this case he is the buyer. the buyer has stated a nice clean and
simple case. the buyer expected a proof and did not get one. he got
a circ strike.
the ebay seller.. said go away. his feedback shows this is how he operates.
<< <i>32 Negative
50 Neutral
05 Withdrawn
87 Total
Seems easy to determine where the problem is. >>
32 Negs out of 21,000 feedback 99.85% I believe as a Raw coin seller. Yeesh. I am not necessarily defending the seller in this instance but don't hang him on his feedback.
<< <i>
rgcoinguy.. you have been around long enough to know exactly who
seateddime is.
you are coming up with a straw man argument.
in this case he is the buyer. the buyer has stated a nice clean and
simple case. the buyer expected a proof and did not get one. he got
a circ strike.
the ebay seller.. said go away. his feedback shows this is how he operates. >>
In fact, I do not know most people here's ebay ID's. I have no reason not to believe the OP, and I do have my doubts as raised in the first page or two about the seller.
But I do see some issues with the way the OP has not provided more info. They bought a raw coin on ebay. It was a seated dime. The seller is a volume seller of raw coins on ebay. Sure, maybe he could have handled this differently, but we are only getting one side of the story, and in my little brain, it doesn't appear the full story. I am not the only one to state this, and manofcoins is not the only other one.
The OP goes by the name seateddime, and posts in the seated coin forum a lot (which I learned by clicking his signature line). He should have known (IMO) better than the seller, if it was a proof and could have returned it when he received it within the 7 day return period.
Edited to add: Alternately, a link to the auction, and more information about when it was purchased and the conversations with the seller, would be more fair to the seller, IMO.
as a proof that turns out to be a circ strike to take it back minus
the cost of shipping both ways even if two months have passed
and the buyer kindly got a paid opinion from a highly regarded TPG
to back up his claim.
geez. low standards around here. doing the right thing is just not to
be expected anymore.
<< <i>ok. i guess i am a complete idiot for expecting a dealer who sells a coin
as a proof that turns out to be a circ strike to take it back minus
the cost of shipping both ways even if two months have passed
and the buyer kindly got a paid opinion from a highly regarded TPG
to back up his claim. >>
Based on my reading of the situation, I would expect the same thing you expected.
<< <i>
geez. low standards around here. doing the right thing is just not to
be expected anymore. >>
I would just expect higher standards from this board in giving the full details of the situation when they are complaining about a seller in an online post. Even your comment you are making assumptions. The OP never said two months, it could have been two years ago.
And by the way I hardly ever sell anything on ebay but have bought quite a bit.
World Collection
British Collection
German States Collection
As a newbie, I paid strong money for a coin represented to be MS63 by this seller that was AU Whizzed. I simply did not know it at the time. When I learned that the coin was whizzed, seller would not even acknowledge.
Any seller that would sell a whizzed coin sans disclosure deserves a case of amebic dysentery. I have zero respect for Dan. I sincerely hope his coin business fails.
this is a perplexing statement given the nature of what was said earlier in the post---The fact remains the coin was misrepresented as to its method of manufacture and the seller should take the coin back no questions asked in this case regardless of how much time has passed. the coin may be difficult to attribute method of manufacture but the only person in the transaction not bound by his decision is the seller?? and then the buyer isn't bound by any time limit??
absent any response as to whether the seller was contacted and the topic of authenticity as a Proof was discussed in terms of a return after TPG verification, logic would lead me to believe that the buyer accepted the coin as a Proof and thus forfeited any return privelage. he should have gone with his initial judgement.
not to excuse the seller for mis-attributing the coin as a Proof, but shouldn't the buyer also bear some responsibility???
"Everything is on its way to somewhere. Everything." - George Malley, Phenomenon
http://www.american-legacy-coins.com
The OP claims to be a specialist in seated dimes. The OP thought the coin wasn't a proof when he received it.
The OP DIDN'T returne the coin as per the ebay terms he bought it under.
The OP Is not answering a lot of legitimate questions in the thread the OP started.
This seller may or may not have done the OP wrong, but how can anyone who has read this thread, make that conclusion?
Edited to add: By god, this is ebay, and this forum rants on buying raw coins on ebay as being stupid, come on folks, lets get some consistency going here and actually look at what has been written in this thread, and MORE IMPORTANTLY, WHAT HASN'T.
Hopefully you at least mentioned to K95 in an email that you were sending off the coin for certification. Fwiw the major auction houses frequently call coins proof when they are unc or vice versa and they do not stand by that attribution. That are only responsible for it being an authentic US mint product (ie not counterfeit).
One would have hoped for higher standards from a forum member. But I have met this same fate once or twice on forum members auctions. One time I got a pos cleaned better date XF45 Barber quarter from one of the leading Barber collectors here. The photo did not show the stark white surfaces. His ebay description was "all original." I took a 40% hit on that coin though I did mention to the member that his coin was obviously cleaned and that his description was a total fabrication. He never bothered to reply. And I didn't even "out" the turd. It just wasn't worth extending my headache. I learned my lesson about putting too much trust in forum membership when it happens to include ebay.
87 total negs/neutrals on ebay is a HUGE amount, even for someone with 25,000+ replies. We all know that <1% of sellers will rat on a poor transaction. Most just don't know any better or in the minorit of cases....don't want to let others know they were taken. When you see even a couple of transactions about whizzed, doctored, massively overgraded coins, you don't need 96% feedback (ie 1000 negs) to tell you something stinks. And who cares about the 99% of the ebay buyers who know less than you about coins? It's your transaction that counts. And we're sorry that seateddime happens to know a thing or two about seated dimes. Knowledgeble collectors are for the most part an ebay seller's worst nightmare. Most just want the dumbed down buyers. Most don't realize they were scammed until way too late. And how could K95 definitively declare this coin a proof when it clearly wasn't? Either he's no expert or he's just a sheister....or possibly both.
Those proclaiming "sad sack sour grapes" are probably the same type of people who would follow the business model already set down by K95 and many other ebay sellers....."let the buyer eat it." I have a feeling that if seateddime wanted asked to return that coin right away, that it would have been refused on the grounds that it was what it was. Period. Don't count on the fact that you can contact a seller upfront if you have reservations. I did that once to a 100% FB seller coin company and they said I could return the coin if I didn't like it. Well, they changed their mind once I had the coin in hand and refused the return. 100% FB doesn't guarantee anything.
And in this case they didn't remain a 100% FB ebayer for very long.
roadrunner
<< <i>I totally agree with fc. Total misrepresentation. I know if this were me as the seller, or 99% of other forum members, we'd all have egg on our faces in selling an unc for proof money. >>
RR - One of the people I really respect here, it has been pointed out, there is almost no difference in the price of a proof vs uncirc of this coin in this thread.
A proof coin should be easily determined for this type just be feeling the edge for sharpness and depth of strike. Uncs have beveled edges and lack sharpness in the reeding, denticles, etc. why didn't the specialist forum member readily ID it a Mint State coin then??
my experiences with eBay and the BST has made things clear to me-----i have learned that i get in trouble when i start discussing the reasons for my wanting to return an item. i just need to make a decision and then inform the seller if i intend to keep the coin or return it. once i decide to keep a coin it's a done deal and i have to live with my decision.
but that's just me and what time has taught me. i figure i'm in the minority.
<< <i>I've got to say- the amount of evidence that's considered satisfactory for reaching a definitive decision about an issue is really eye opening. I guess it shouldn't surprise me, but still... >>
Can you provide the evidence the OP provided for me, I guess I missed it? Please?
Edited to add, sorry, missed the point of the post....
<< <i>
<< <i>ok. i guess i am a complete idiot for expecting a dealer who sells a coin
as a proof that turns out to be a circ strike to take it back minus
the cost of shipping both ways even if two months have passed
and the buyer kindly got a paid opinion from a highly regarded TPG
to back up his claim. >>
Based on my reading of the situation, I would expect the same thing you expected. >>
I would agree 100%, IF the buyer decided to return the coin once he had the chance to view it in-hand. Not only after the coin is viewed in-hand and then sent to PCGS for their opinion/grading. This scenario should hold true for any buyer but especially one with advanced knowledge of what their buying. Again, if I were the seller and I genuinely thought that said coin was a proof (which is certainly viable), I would be very upset about this thread.
<< <i>Edited to add, sorry, missed the point of the post.... >>
No- I think you've pretty much got it.
From my 35 yrs in the seated area, in almost every case of a common seated type coin, the proof is more valuable than the unc...and more highly sought after as a rule because of the superior striking details and the reflective fields......despite the fact that it's often more common in the totality of grades PF60-63....hence the higher price. To most collectors there is something superior and desired about an early proof coin that never circulated. We don't have time to do a complete psych exam on SD and K95 so we'll just have to rely on the fact that the buyer claims they didn't receive a proof coin....unless of course he is fabricating the entire story and submitted an entirely different coin to PCGS just to defame K95. We've had some pretty good stories here, but that would be a first.
Again, if I were the seller and I genuinely thought that said coin was a proof (which is certainly viable), I would be very upset about this thread
Ditto.....I too as a seller would be very upset that my lack of knowledge could be made public (not to mention my deficient customer relations) and hopefully the buyer would have given me a chance to make it all right. It appears the buyer did afford that opportunity. The seller apparently feels he could not have been mistaken about the proof status of the coin. It's one thing for the TPG's as well as experts to sometimes disagree on the proof status of 3c nickels, shield and lib nickels, and Indian cents as in many cases there are almost no differences...and no reeding to assist. In some cases proof dies were used to make business strikes. That is not the case for 1874 dimes.
I'm not saying I couldn't have made the same mistake on this coin. What I am saying is that if the TPG differed with my opinion, I would have made it right for the buyer assuming they didn't switch coins on me. And even if they did, if it were the same grade and value, I'd accept the return and move on. This is precisely why I don't sell on ebay.
roadrunner
<< <i>I can't speak for seated dime on why he didn't just return it. But it really in irrelevant to me. It came back a proof from PCGS, what more "proof" do you need. And as far as the price of the proof or unc being close in price, is 20-30% close enough of a loss for everyone here? It isn't for me. A proof is much more money in all grades. If you look at blue sheet in the 61-62 grades where more than likely this coin resides, the difference is greater. 50% by my older bluesheet. CDN and BS don't sell coins, people do. And again, what difference does it make? The buyer wanted a proof. If I'm looking for a proof seated dime for type, more than likely I don't want a MS coin in it's place. Reverse is true for those looking for a MS 1874 dime for type or variety. They don't want a proof in its place. Imagine if you bid on a PF62 trade dollar for your Proof only type set and seller XXX sends you a MS62. Are you happy?
From my 35 yrs in the seated area, in almost every case of a common seated type coin, the proof is more valuable than the unc...and more highly sought after as a rule because of the superior striking details and the reflective fields......despite the fact that it's often more common in the totality of grades PF60-63....hence the higher price. To most collectors there is something superior and desired about an early proof coin that never circulated. We don't have time to do a complete psych exam on SD and K95 so we'll just have to rely on the fact that the buyer claims they didn't receive a proof coin....unless of course he is fabricating the entire story and submitted an entirely different coin to PCGS just to defame K95. We've had some pretty good stories here, but that would be a first.
Again, if I were the seller and I genuinely thought that said coin was a proof (which is certainly viable), I would be very upset about this thread
Ditto.....I too as a seller would be very upset that my lack of knowledge could be made public (not to mention my deficient customer relations) and hopefully the buyer would have given me a chance to make it all right. It appears the buyer did afford that opportunity. The seller apparently feels he could not have been mistaken about the proof status of the coin.
roadrunner >>
All great points. So why won't the OP give us a link to the auction, or more info on his communications with the seller?
The OP did a great hit and run on this thread, several times today.
No real info on what really happened, and no proof of how the deal went down.
Edited to add: I am sure we can talk to the seller and get the other side of this over the weekend. RR, you claim the seller should be upset about his lack of knowledge about the coin, how about the OP? He goes by the nic seateddime.
He wasn't sure enough himself to just send it back, and evidently wanted to make a proof out of it in a pcgs slab. How do you know, from this thread, that the seller didn't try to make it right from the buyer? The only quote the buyer gave, was after he made the buyer mad and was blocked.
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
"....I suspected it was not proof...."
i made this same mistake many years ago in a well documented sale with another forum member which spawned many threads and i was wrong but didn't know it at the time. at a venue like eBay things are even clearer, there is a time allowed for returns that isn't open-ended. i accept and understand that the coin most probably isn't a Proof, but the buyer made a decision not to return it within an unspecified time and it isn't unreasonable for a seller to expect that the buyer is committed to keeping the coin under those circumstances.
my spin on things isn't that the seller is a scumbag for not taking it back. rather, i would think the seller a very generous guy for accepting a return after such a long time.
What I did not like is that when I pointed it out to Klondike his response was not, I am sorry I made an error or would you like to return it or what can I do to make this right.
His response was you are a problem buyer and I am blocking you.
This tells me the seller does not care at all that he misrepresented the coin, he shows no interest in corrected his error but rather took the approach I did something wrong in point out to him his error.
It shows a total lack of honesty on his part and therefore I felt it to be in the best interest of the all to point out this behavior.
His response was that of a thief trying to fool people.
I never have asked for my money back, nor am I asking for it but if the seller had any level on honesty he would have been concerned about his error and would have wanted to correct it without my even having to ask.
This is the ultimate buyer beware kind of seller who will not fix any error he makes.
This is not a grading error but in fact the sale of a lower value business strike as a proof.
His approach prompted this thread. Had he shown ANY concern over his error I would have told him not to worry about it but what really bothers me is how he clearly does not care at all and for that people should know what they are dealing with if they buy from him.
Just last week I was asked an opinion on a coin he was selling and I offered my honest opinion of the coin, I also told the would be buyer I thought he was a fair seller. Now I see I was wrong. This is a buyer beware seller who has a reputation of selling overgraded coins as many people have pointed out to me via PM.
Buying top quality Seated Dimes in Gem BU and Proof.
Buying great coins - monster eye appeal only.
<< <i>I did not ask to return the coin nor do I really care that much about.
What I did not like is that when I pointed it out to Klondike his response was not, I am sorry I made an error or would you like to return it or what can I do to make this right.
His response was you are a problem buyer and I am blocking you.
This tells me the seller does not care at all that he misrepresented the coin, he shows no interest in corrected his error but rather took the approach I did something wrong in point out to him his error.
It shows a total lack of honesty on his part and therefore I felt it to be in the best interest of the all to point out this behavior.
His response was that of a thief trying to fool people.
I never have asked for my money back, nor am I asking for it but if the seller had any level on honesty he would have been concerned about his error and would have wanted to correct it without my even having to ask.
This is the ultimate buyer beware kind of seller who will not fix any error he makes.
This is not a grading error but in fact the sale of a lower value business strike as a proof.
His approach prompted this thread. Had he shown ANY concern over his error I would have told him not to worry about it but what really bothers me is how he clearly does not care at all and for that people should know what they are dealing with if they buy from him.
Just last week I was asked an opinion on a coin he was selling and I offered my honest opinion of the coin, I also told the would be buyer I thought he was a fair seller. Now I see I was wrong. This is a buyer beware seller who has a reputation of selling overgraded coins as many people have pointed out to me via PM. >>
Lets see the auction link
When I read the comment,
"I really did not care much about returning the coin but the response was really harsh."
is the complaint here the response from the seller?
If so, get over it & move on.
Did I miss what the coin graded?
As was pointed out, not much difference in value.
Was that the issue, a 'refund' on the difference?
So many questions, so little answers.
__________________________________________
UPDATE:
Just read the answers if what you say is true.
No need to link, won't prove or disprove anything IMO.
Only part missing now is the other sides story.
Couldn't agree more.