klondike95 sold me this coin: 1874 Proof PR Arrows Seated Liberty Dime I suspected it was not proof

seateddime · August 20, 2009 10:41PM

Sure enough the coin came back as a business strike, I emailed Dan and this was the email he sent back. Paypal and Ebay feedback times have passed so how would you deal with him?

"Jason You are a PROBLEM Buyer. It is Difficult if not impossible For me To believe anything you have To Say.

I have placed You on the Ebay Blocked Bidder list. Please Do your Fishing Elsewhere

Regards Dan"

RyGuy · August 20, 2009 10:43PM

What a douche.

Edited to add - Have you told him that you would "out" him on the CU boards and how it can negatively affect his business dealings? Also, I would contact both eBay and PayPal and explain the situation and why there was such a delay in solving the problem sooner (waiting for TPG authentication as a proof).

Res · August 20, 2009 10:48PM

If you paid via credit card call them and tell them you want to do a charge back.

seanq · August 20, 2009 11:05PM

Certainly not how I would do business, but I think you're probably stuck with the coin now.

Did you suspect the coin was not a proof from the pictures before you purchased it, or was it only clear once you had it in your hands? Did you express your concerns to the seller immediately or did you wait to contact him until after the coin was graded? I'm not defending the seller's actions at all, but I wonder if a little communication earlier in the process could have saved you some headaches now. I would have sent an email to him during the initial return period stating my misgivings and asking him to extend his warranty until PCGS could render an opinion. If he had replied "after X days the coin is yours regardless of what PCGS says," would you have returned it then or submitted it anyway?

I had a similar situation on the BST recently, I sold a complex error coin which the buyer sent to PCGS and which was bagged for "questionable authenticity". Had I known the buyer was planning to get the coin graded, I would have provided documentation to help explain how the coin was made; in a total vacuum I would expect PCGS to do bag the coin too. Even though the transaction is almost two months old, I'm taking the coin back and giving a full refund. It's a shame, he's out his grading fees and I'm out the sale, where a little communication up front could have helped us both.

Sean Reynolds

291fifth · August 20, 2009 11:07PM

You waited too long.

If you suspected it was not as described you should have sent it back for a refund immediately.

lathmach · August 20, 2009 11:09PM

I just bought a coin from Dan.
The transaction was good.

Ray

Hyperion · August 20, 2009 11:12PM

any professional dealer would stand behind the coin....

Id never buy from him based on this thread.

rhedden · August 20, 2009 11:52PM

Sounds like Klondike made a mistake and bought it as a proof, so he can't get his money out of it. I wouldn't buy from him again if I were you, but I can't say this kind of story is unexpected for ebay dealings. How good was his return privilege on this item?

WinPitcher · August 20, 2009 11:57PM

Seller should make good. If what has been said here is correct. I would like to hear both
sides of course.

Steve

rgCoinGuy · August 21, 2009 12:01AM

Not sure if it was the same terms at the time of the auctions, but this powerseller now does not accept paypal, and has a clear 7 day return policy, buyer to pay return shipping.

If you suspected it was not a proof as it states in your title, you should have just sent it right back to him, IMO.

WinPitcher · August 21, 2009 12:04AM

Even if the seller no longer accepts PP he still has to accept some form of electronic payment.

CC? Or some other online payment that Ebay has approved.

Steve

jmski52 · August 21, 2009 12:06AM

You waited too long.

If you suspected it was not as described you should have sent it back for a refund immediately.

Caveat Emptor isn't sufficient reason not to make good on a coin that was MISREPRESENTED.

rgCoinGuy · August 21, 2009 12:08AM

<< Even if the seller no longer accepts PP he still has to accept some form of electronic payment.

CC? Or some other online payment that Ebay has approved.

Steve >>

Yes, it says accepts "AMEX"

That is the only payment option.

Here is a link to a current auction.

My only point was the OP evidently thought the coin wasn't what was advertised, and instead of utilizing the 7 days offered in the auction (if it was the same then) he sent it in to be graded and didn't get back to the seller until after Ebay feedback times have passed.

Edited: I am not condoning the seller selling something that isn't as advertised, and him not offering paypal could be a sign he has had other problems, that was just my two cents opinion on the matter.

PerryHall · August 21, 2009 12:09AM

<< You waited too long.

If you suspected it was not as described you should have sent it back for a refund immediately.

Caveat Emptor isn't sufficient reason not to make good on a coin that was MISREPRESENTED. >>

Agree. Misrepresentation = Not a done deal.

Smittys · August 21, 2009 12:12AM

if you paid with amex you have an option with them

Millertime · August 21, 2009 12:32AM

<< You waited too long.

If you suspected it was not as described you should have sent it back for a refund immediately. >>

JMW · August 21, 2009 12:51AM

I have purchased a couple of times from him with the same result, an OK coin not as nice as described, but not off enough to return. All of his material is raw.

jmski52 · August 21, 2009 1:23AM

coin not as nice as described, but not off enough to return. All of his material is raw.

In other words, his grading accounts for at least 50% of his profit margin, and it's not really accurate either?

"not as nice as described" = misrepresented. I rest my case.

I stand by my position, Caveat Emptor isn't sufficient reason not to make good on a coin that was MISREPRESENTED.

Bayard1908 · August 21, 2009 1:28AM

Unless you had an agreement with the seller that the coin would slab as a proof, I believe you're attempting to abuse the return privilege.

I suspect you bought the coin cheaply, realized it probably wasn't a proof but decided to gamble and have it graded. The reason you decided to gamble is that you intended to foist all the downside risk on the seller, i.e., proof I win, business strike you lose.

jmski52 · August 21, 2009 1:30AM

Unless you had an agreement with the seller that the coin would slab as a proof, I believe you're attempting to abuse the return privilege.

If the coin was represented as a proof, shouldn't it be a proof?

PerryHall · August 21, 2009 1:31AM

<< Unless you had an agreement with the seller that the coin would slab as a proof, I believe you're attempting to abuse the return privilege.

If the coin was represented as a proof, shouldn't it be a proof?

>>

Not according to some posters.

coinmanic · August 21, 2009 1:34AM

Interesting question. Had the coin come back not genuine, most would probably agree that a refund would be in order. If it came back at a grade different that advertised most would probably tell you tough luck. But an advertised Proof as a business strike, Hmmmm.

If the coin was paid with a credit card, you have 60 days from the statement date to challenge the transaction. After that your only option is probably to just flame away here and learn to be very, very, careful when buying raw coins anywhere, not just on Ebay.

It would be interesting to hear what the opposing party has to say.

jmski52 · August 21, 2009 1:34AM

Not according to some posters.

Yeah, I see that. Maybe I need to adjust to "the new paradigm".

I've got some crap I could sell on ebay and not worry too much about whether or not my descriptions are "accurate" or "true".

Bayard1908 · August 21, 2009 1:35AM

<< Unless you had an agreement with the seller that the coin would slab as a proof, I believe you're attempting to abuse the return privilege.

If the coin was represented as a proof, shouldn't it be a proof?

>>

I'd like to see the eBay listing before concluding the coin was represented as a proof.

jmski52 · August 21, 2009 1:37AM

I'd like to see the eBay listing before concluding the coin was represented as a proof.

Fair enough. I'd like to see it, also.

ziggy29 · August 21, 2009 1:39AM

Almost all of this seller's stuff I've seen is significantly overgraded. Doesn't really matter if you buy it at a discount to the claimed grade that matches your opinion of the coin, but still, that alone makes me wary to do business with someone. I'd agree with those who say that a significant misrepresentation of what you bought takes precedence over return periods and stuff, almost as if it turned out to be a fake.

Connecticoin · August 21, 2009 1:41AM

The OP should to a chargeback on Amex.

seateddime · August 21, 2009 1:46AM

<< You waited too long.

If you suspected it was not as described you should have sent it back for a refund immediately. >>

this is true, I waited way too long but there should no time limit on authenticity IMHO

Smittys · August 21, 2009 1:50AM

I'd like to see the coin. (Pics please)
I'd like to see the auction and how it was listed. (link please)
And I'd be curious as to price paid.
To see if you thought you made a rip or got ripped.

TomB · August 21, 2009 1:56AM

I'm curious to see an image of the coin as well as to find out the PCGS grade or if it was returned in a genuine holder only. By the way, if this is the seller I think it is (and I don't know that to be the case) then the images provided in the auctions always scare me away by their poor quality.

sinin1 · August 21, 2009 2:06AM

some coins are hard to differentiate between BS and PR

I suspect even TPG occassionally get them wrong

you bought as proof, had suspicioins but where not convinced yourself and sent to PCGS

tuff call what is correct, I suspect you bought at discount from proof value

renomedphys · August 21, 2009 2:07AM

I have purchased from Dan, and found him to be an upstanding dealer. I am disheartened to hear that he won't stand by his description, regardless of the timeframe.

Bossman88 · August 21, 2009 2:17AM

If the seller (Klondike95) sold this coin as a Proof
and PCGS certified it as a Mint Strike
The seller (Klondike95) misrepresented this coin
Nuff said.

Regards, Larry

newsman · August 21, 2009 2:18AM

The 1874 w/a dime is worth less in mint state than in proof. If an MS coin was sold as a proof, that's a significant misrepresentation.

coinmanic · August 21, 2009 2:23AM

<< If the seller (Klondike95) sold this coin as a Proof
and PCGS certified it as a Mint Strike
The seller (Klondike95) misrepresented this coin
Nuff said.

Regards, Larry >>

That may be true but time is of the essence. If 60 days has past since his cc statement (if he in fact paid with a CC). His only recourse is to sue which is probably not economically realistic. His other option is to bring the issue to the forum and try to put enough pressure on the seller to issue a refund.

Once again. I would like to hear from the other side as well.

quickwing · August 21, 2009 2:26AM

Raw coin on eBay. Raw coin on eBay. Raw coin on eBay.
Think about it. Raw coin on eBay. OK enough.

mrpotatoheadd · August 21, 2009 2:41AM

<< Think about it. Raw coin on eBay. >>

There are plenty of raw coins on eBay that are perfectly fine. OK- I thought about it.

19Lyds · August 21, 2009 2:42AM

<< You waited too long.

If you suspected it was not as described you should have sent it back for a refund immediately. >>

Or submitted it under Express Grading.

Sean is absolutely correct in that your intentions and suspicions should have been reported immediately to the seller.

BTW, how MUCH time has transpired between the original purchase and this latest email (which, IMO, is a bit rude in its flat context so I expect that many other emails have been exchanged.) ?

dragon · August 21, 2009 2:51AM

<< Unless you had an agreement with the seller that the coin would slab as a proof, I believe you're attempting to abuse the return privilege.

I suspect you bought the coin cheaply, realized it probably wasn't a proof but decided to gamble and have it graded. The reason you decided to gamble is that you intended to foist all the downside risk on the seller, i.e., proof I win, business strike you lose. >>

Total nonsense IMO. Assuming the coin was clearly advertised and represented as a proof coin by the seller it doesn't matter one bit how much was paid for the coin or if the buyer got a bargain or what the downside risk was or if the buyer was gambling or any other reason whatsoever. The fact remains the coin was misrepresented as to its method of manufacture and the seller should take the coin back no questions asked in this case regardless of how much time has passed. The buyer is in no way abusing the return option by simply expecting to receive what was advertised as far as method of manufacture, and no prior agreement should have been necessary in that regard.

Also since many seated coins can be very tricky as to whether they are proofs or business strikes, I don't find it unusual at all that the buyer sent the coin in to PCGS for verification.

mrpotatoheadd · August 21, 2009 2:54AM

<< Also since many seated coins can be very tricky as to whether they are proofs or business strikes, I don't find it unusual at all that the buyer sent the coin in to PCGS for verification. >>

Is it possible for PCGS to make a mistake on this determination?

I'm just askin'....

19Lyds · August 21, 2009 2:55AM

<< 

<< Unless you had an agreement with the seller that the coin would slab as a proof, I believe you're attempting to abuse the return privilege.

I suspect you bought the coin cheaply, realized it probably wasn't a proof but decided to gamble and have it graded. The reason you decided to gamble is that you intended to foist all the downside risk on the seller, i.e., proof I win, business strike you lose. >>

Total nonsense IMO. Assuming the coin was clearly advertised and represented as a proof coin by the seller it doesn't matter one bit how much was paid for the coin or if the buyer got a bargain or what the downside risk was or if the buyer was gambling or any other reason whatsoever. The fact remains the coin was misrepresented as to its method of manufacture and the seller should take the coin back no questions asked in this case regardless of how much time has passed. The buyer is in no way abusing the return option by simply expecting to receive what was advertised as far as method of manufacture, and no prior agreement should have been necessary in that regard.

Also since many seated coins can be very tricky as to whether they are proofs or business strikes, I don't find it unusual at all that the buyer sent the coin in to PCGS for verification. >>

Purty quick with them "facts" there based upon only one side of a story aren't cha?

kryptonitecomics · August 21, 2009 3:14AM

200

By the way my take is.....if you purchase a proof....you should get a proof.

yellowkid · August 21, 2009 3:20AM

Was it represented as proof, and did you pay proof money? I would like to see the original sales description.....

dragon · August 21, 2009 3:21AM

<<< Is it possible for PCGS to make a mistake on this determination? >>>

Yes it's completely possible that PCGS can make a mistake on that determination, however when it comes down to siding with an Ebay seller or PCGS I'm gonna go with the PCGS opinion about 99% of the time :-)

<<< Purty quick with them "facts" there based upon only one side of a story aren't cha? >>>

No I do not know all the facts surounding this transaction which is why I said " Assuming the coin was clearly advertised and represented as a proof coin".

mrpotatoheadd · August 21, 2009 3:27AM

<< Yes it's completely possible that PCGS can make a mistake on that determination, however when it comes down to siding with an Ebay seller or PCGS I'm gonna go with the PCGS opinion about 99% of the time :-) >>

OK- fair enough.

Now... suppose it is *your* coin- you are convinced it is a proof, PCGS says it's not. Whose opinion would you go with here?

Again... not trying to stir anything up- I'm just asking.

SeaEagleCoins · August 21, 2009 3:31AM

<< 

<< Yes it's completely possible that PCGS can make a mistake on that determination, however when it comes down to siding with an Ebay seller or PCGS I'm gonna go with the PCGS opinion about 99% of the time :-) >>

OK- fair enough.

Now... suppose it is *your* coin- you are convinced it is a proof, PCGS says it's not. Whose opinion would you go with here?

Again... not trying to stir anything up- I'm just asking. >>

Off with his typing fingers!!! Blasphemer!!! Dunk his head in Kool Aid until he shouts "David Hall, I love you!!!"

How dare you come into these sacred halls and even hint at a possible error on the part of PCGS graders????

ajia · August 21, 2009 3:33AM

"...and did you pay proof money?"

Not totally understanding why the amount paid is a factor.
I guess it's the "If it's too good to be true.." syndrome, but in these cases it would be, "If it's too cheap to be a proof...."

The bottom line IMO is if it was listed as a proof, then it should be a proof regardless of the final price paid.

BTW- Would the eBay listing still be available after all this time?

dragon · August 21, 2009 3:34AM

<<< Now... suppose it is *your* coin- you are convinced it is a proof, PCGS says it's not. Whose opinion would you go with here? >>>

Well if I felt very strongly that a certain coin was indeed a proof based on die diagnostics or some other compelling reason then I would probably send it back in for review.

mrpotatoheadd · August 21, 2009 3:36AM

<< BTW- Would the eBay listing still be available after all this time? >>

If you know the item number, you can generally go back about 3 months. This is not carved in stone- it just depends on when eBay gets around to removing old listings.

<< Well if I felt very strongly that a certain coin was indeed a proof based on die diagnostics or some other compelling reason then I would probably send it back in for review. >>

I believe I would do the same, so I think it's only fair to allow for the possibility the seller of the coin might also agree with that conclusion, and not rush to judgement about his ethics without more information.

edited to add second comment...

HalfStrike · August 21, 2009 3:51AM

klondike95 sold me this coin: 1874 Proof PR Arrows Seated Liberty Dime I suspected it was not proof and sent it to PCGS

If you notice he says he suspected it was not a proof and didn't return it, instead sent it to PCGS. I think that should have been discussed with the seller perhaps?

SaorAlba · August 21, 2009 4:07AM

I am rather tiring of these sadsack sourgrapes stories about BST experiences or gripes about other board members. Me thinks there are some people on here that:

1. Need to educate themselves about coins
2. Get professional psychiatric care
3. Perhaps if neither of the above are forthcoming, they need to get a new hobby

klondike95 sold me this coin: 1874 Proof PR Arrows Seated Liberty Dime I suspected it was not proof

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