The race is on and here comes Pride at the backstretch Heartaches a goin to the inside My tears are holdin back Tryin not to fall My heart's out of the runnin In a race to another place The race is on and it looks like heartache And the winner loses all
A song by the Grateful Dead...
...and the winner is...
nobody...
why? you might ask...
...because Nobody is perfect... and that's why Nobody's opinion really matters... unless Somebody thinks it does... and whether they agree or not, in the end...it does not matter... because Nobody is perfect... and if Nobody is perfect... then anybody who thinks they are perfect is Nobody to reckon with... after all, if you argue with anybody who thinks they are perfect... then you are really arguing with Nobody... and you can't win because.... Nobody is perfect...
Re: Slabbed coins - There are some coins that LIVE within clear plastic and wear their labels with pride... while there are others that HIDE behind scratched plastic and are simply dragged along by a label. Then there are those coins that simply hang out, naked and free
<< <i>Hey I've got a scenario which hasn't been brought up:
A middle aged woman goes into a relatively busy coin shop with her late husbands modest coin collection which consists mainly of proof sets from 1968 to date. There are about 50 or so sets with quantities varying from 5 to 6 sets per year. These are common clad sets so no contact information is left or even asked for.
10% back of grey sheet bid is offered for each set including a sizeable premium for that 2001-S!
Searching later on the sets reveals a 1968-S No Set set and at least 1 1968 Inverted S Kennedy along with several DCAM 1971-S Kennedy's.
What to do?
IMO, this would be a significantly more expensive loss for the lady, which could have been caught but then, who inspects every proof set that crosses the counter other than to insure that all the coins are in each set? Especially if any quantity is brought in? >>
My response: How the hell does the nature of the material being presented have any bearing on wether or not verifiable ID is obtained from a seller? In the coin shop where I am employed, EVERY seller is required to provide verifiable ID. No exceptions. What is so difficult about making that S.O.P.? The policy provides a basic, legitimate way of claiming that good title has been passed in the event of a L.E. investigation, and it certainly eliminates the excuse of a buyer that "there is no way to reconnect with the seller". Well Al, how about it? >>
My Counter-Response: Simply because Al's shop does not require it as there obviously is no LAW governing it. >>
Uh huh. That will hold up in a case where Al's shop might be in possession of stolen property. Just the kind of policy that is a magnet for thieves looking for a fence. Of course in the topic of this discussion, the roles could be very well perceived as having been reversed. I made no statement that ID is a matter of law in any state. It's more a matter of common sense and self preservation of a legitimate business.
When I was a young lad 10-12 years old, I lost a very old coin, 1652 Pine Tree Shilling. (thought to be counterfeit, edited to add; a replica) I had thought that my mom threw it out since I kept it in a folded up envelope in a smaller sugar canister. Some 20 years later, the people who bought the farm house told my parents that they found an old nickel in the attic when they replaced the insulation. It was suggested that the coin was worth thousands. The thing is, I never went to those people to claim it was mine or to asked them if it was the 1652 coin. I might still do that but I don't think I could get the coin back, too many years have passed. But then again, I was just a kid who misplaced it.
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
Every time I think this issue is about to die, either Keets or Seaeaglecoin keeps fanning the flames. If you guys want the thread to die, just stop bringing it back up with the flaming and the "go ahead, attack me for my actions, I dare ya" type of attitude displayed. Seriously. I have nothing personal against either of you guys, nor against most all of those posting on either side....yes, I have my opinion one what I would have done and what I would have hoped would have been done, but it isn't my action, my coin shop, nor my coin.
Yet, a few folks seem to WANT the attention else they would just let it drop.
Also, I find it interesting that a few folks that talk about how others are doing a lot of judging and shouldn't be....aren't those same folks ALSO judging the ones they claim are doing the judging?
Come on guys....either let it drop or admit you like the attention
The basic tenets of why a dealer should simply require I.D. when purchasing, was eloquently summarized by coindeuce far better than I could ever hope to.
<< <i>someone cautioned me via PM to just shut-up and not say another word about this incident, the best advice yet. what has happened from the beginning just continues, character assassination, inuendo and supposition by members who think they know all about me. please keep the thread going because you're teaching me more about yourselves than you realize.
strangely, i feel that through no effort on my part to do so, i have irreparably damaged my credibility here, a very strange thing indeed. members i have trusted have seen fit to hammer away while some forum names i don't even recognize have joined the fight. worst of all, there are some that i thought i had a good relationship with through BST transactions and general interaction in threads who have cast doubt on that due to their very judgemental attitudes.
i can't say this LOUD enough------all over one incident that's been picked apart. and to think, i have noone to blame but myself for bringing it up in the first place. >>
<< <i>Hey I've got a scenario which hasn't been brought up:
A middle aged woman goes into a relatively busy coin shop with her late husbands modest coin collection which consists mainly of proof sets from 1968 to date. There are about 50 or so sets with quantities varying from 5 to 6 sets per year. These are common clad sets so no contact information is left or even asked for.
10% back of grey sheet bid is offered for each set including a sizeable premium for that 2001-S!
Searching later on the sets reveals a 1968-S No Set set and at least 1 1968 Inverted S Kennedy along with several DCAM 1971-S Kennedy's.
What to do?
IMO, this would be a significantly more expensive loss for the lady, which could have been caught but then, who inspects every proof set that crosses the counter other than to insure that all the coins are in each set? Especially if any quantity is brought in? >>
My response: How the hell does the nature of the material being presented have any bearing on wether or not verifiable ID is obtained from a seller? In the coin shop where I am employed, EVERY seller is required to provide verifiable ID. No exceptions. What is so difficult about making that S.O.P.? The policy provides a basic, legitimate way of claiming that good title has been passed in the event of a L.E. investigation, and it certainly eliminates the excuse of a buyer that "there is no way to reconnect with the seller". Well Al, how about it? >>
My Counter-Response: Simply because Al's shop does not require it as there obviously is no LAW governing it. >>
Uh huh. That will hold up in a case where Al's shop might be in possession of stolen property. Just the kind of policy that is a magnet for thieves looking for a fence. Of course in the topic of this discussion, the roles could be very well perceived as having been reversed. I made no statement that ID is a matter of law in any state. It's more a matter of common sense and self preservation of a legitimate business. >>
As I'm sure this "older gentleman" looked like a thief and I have no doubts that the shop Al works at, is a "legitimate" business.
While not trying to do any "profiling" I'm sure that certain actions by would be sellers could trigger a dealers senses to request or even require id, such as "excessive twitchiness", or "excessive youth" or maybe even needle tracks up and down the arms. I just don't think that it makes sense to "require" id from all potential sellers simply because they are selling something. What if someone were simply selling two of last years clad proof set. Would an id be needed then? What if it were a 14 year old kid selling a Silver Eagle he got for Christmas last year and he didn't have any id? Would an id be required?
The whole point is that "blanket policies" and "what if" scenarios simply do not cover every aspect of running a coin shop and until you actually get behind the counter, relating how "your" coin dealer does it or what "your" coin dealers policies are simply doesn't apply since it wasn't "your" coin dealer involved here. It was somebody else's coin dealer whom keets happens to work for.
I decided to change calling the bathroom the John and renamed it the Jim. I feel so much better saying I went to the Jim this morning.
Lyds, the point I made about a policy requiring ID obviously covers more than the aspect of insulating against stolen goods purchases or deterring thieves, but you conveniently chose to twist the context of my point by inferring that I consdered the old man to be a thief to avoid recognition of the true value of such a policy. And you obviously don't understand that no matter what rationale that Al AND his employer have for not requiring verifiable ID from a seller, Al would be just as complicit in the current setup for any circumstance that may arise regarding a point of law or ethics.
<< <i>The whole point is that "blanket policies" and "what if" scenarios simply do not cover every aspect of running a coin shop and until you actually get behind the counter, relating how "your" coin dealer does it or what "your" coin dealers policies are simply doesn't apply since it wasn't "your" coin dealer involved here. It was somebody else's coin dealer whom keets happens to work for. >>
Requiring ID in states where it isn't the law may very well make someone who is selling coins go elsewhere. Not because they have stolen coins, but because a lot of people don't like people making "law" on their own behalf.
<< <i>Lyds, the point I made about a policy requiring ID obviously covers more than the aspect of insulating against stolen goods purchases or deterring thieves, but you conveniently chose to twist the context of my point by inferring that I consdered the old man to be a thief to avoid recognition of the true value of such a policy. And you obviously don't understand that no matter what rationale that Al AND his employer have for not requiring verifiable ID from a seller, Al would be just as complicit in the current setup for any circumstance that may arise regarding a point of law or ethics. >>
I'm not really "twisting" anything, just offering another view to the "legitimate" business aspect.
I decided to change calling the bathroom the John and renamed it the Jim. I feel so much better saying I went to the Jim this morning.
<< <i>"I have found that many folks demand more of others,then they are prepared to do themselves. It is somewhat like a politician demanding moral ethics of others, while they are cheating on their wife. This incident is merely one of 10,000 that occur every day. What folks declare they would do in a hypothetical situation, is often quite different than they would do in real life." >>
Well said, Bear, and I just thought that it bore repeating. I don't suffer hypocrisy well myself.
Keets, I for one am glad it came back real, and suspected it would... just from your description of the makeup of the deal. I am also glad your boss evidently decided to share in the good fortune with you.
Others seem to forget that, as I recall, an unsuccessful attempt was indeed made to contact the owner about the find. But you know the general sentiment here. We dealers are all evil greedy SOBs that should be able to live on 10% but preferably less, we aren't allowed to make mistakes, and should know everything about every coin series, US and foreign, ancient and medieval, plus varieties, errors, etc...and each and every new issue before it comes out, otherwise we are thieves, cheats, liars, swindlers, lazy, and rotten to the core. And God forbid we should accidentally hit a home run on something because that would certainly prove how evil we truly are.
If the guy ever returns kick him something extra on the next deal. You did nothing wrong so don't lose any sleep because of the self-righteous puffery of others.
Speaking of which...as to the rest of the hypocritical who are spouting their "if-I-was-you" statements (when we all know darn well many of them have no qualms about coming here to crow about their latest find/rip/upgrade/whatever)... instead of just talking about it, how about you put up a shingle and show us how it's done?
Spend some time on the other side of the counter, running a B/M, doing this 6 days a week, 50 weeks a year, plus shows, plus appraisals, plus daily buying and selling, making a payroll, or just doing ANYTHING in this business other than making snarky little drive-by comments on a forum...
AND THEN, maybe, just maybe, you'll have the right to come tell us how a "good dealer" should run a business, never overlook something, never make a mistake...
I gotta stop posting for a while and let my blood pressure go down.
I gotta stop posting for a while and let my blood pressure go down.
No, why stop now?
Your rant casts dealers in a bad light, and I am sure that there are many of your colleagues who would want to dissociate themselves from you and others who feel the same way. (That's my snarky, little drive-by comment for the day. )
<< <i>I gotta stop posting for a while and let my blood pressure go down.
No, why stop now?
Your rant casts dealers in a bad light, and I am sure that there are many of your colleagues who would want to dissociate themselves from you and others who feel the same way. (That's my snarky, little drive-by comment for the day. ) >>
<< <i>I gotta stop posting for a while and let my blood pressure go down.
No, why stop now?
Your rant casts dealers in a bad light, and I am sure that there are many of your colleagues who would want to dissociate themselves from you and others who feel the same way. (That's my snarky, little drive-by comment for the day. ) >>
RYK I respect you and your opinions and suspect you realize you aren't considered part of the drive-by crowd...but I don't see where telling the truth is casting anyone in a bad light (other than perhaps with those who don't particularly like what i said because it might have touched a nerve), and would be surprised if other dealers would dissociate themselves from my point, which is simply that dealers are human beings.
And in case no one's picked up on it yet, I take strong exception to the "all dealers are crooks" mentality.
As to the rest of it, I stand behind what I said. To anyone who thinks they have the numismatic business world all figured out ... the water's fine, jump in. (I've been in it a quarter century and freely admit I sure as heck don't know it all!)
Comments
Heartaches a goin to the inside
My tears are holdin back
Tryin not to fall
My heart's out of the runnin
In a race to another place
The race is on and it looks like heartache
And the winner loses all
A song by the Grateful Dead...
...and the winner is...
nobody...
why? you might ask...
...because Nobody is perfect... and that's why Nobody's opinion really matters... unless Somebody thinks it does... and whether they agree or not, in the end...it does not matter... because Nobody is perfect... and if Nobody is perfect... then anybody who thinks they are perfect is Nobody to reckon with... after all, if you argue with anybody who thinks they are perfect... then you are really arguing with Nobody... and you can't win because.... Nobody is perfect...
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Hey I've got a scenario which hasn't been brought up:
A middle aged woman goes into a relatively busy coin shop with her late husbands modest coin collection which consists mainly of proof sets from 1968 to date. There are about 50 or so sets with quantities varying from 5 to 6 sets per year. These are common clad sets so no contact information is left or even asked for.
10% back of grey sheet bid is offered for each set including a sizeable premium for that 2001-S!
Searching later on the sets reveals a 1968-S No Set set and at least 1 1968 Inverted S Kennedy along with several DCAM 1971-S Kennedy's.
What to do?
IMO, this would be a significantly more expensive loss for the lady, which could have been caught but then, who inspects every proof set that crosses the counter other than to insure that all the coins are in each set? Especially if any quantity is brought in? >>
My response: How the hell does the nature of the material being presented have any bearing on wether or not verifiable ID is obtained from a seller? In the coin shop where I am employed, EVERY seller is required to provide verifiable ID. No exceptions. What is so difficult about making that S.O.P.? The policy provides a basic, legitimate way of claiming that good title has been passed in the event of a L.E. investigation, and it certainly eliminates the excuse of a buyer that "there is no way to reconnect with the seller". Well Al, how about it? >>
My Counter-Response: Simply because Al's shop does not require it as there obviously is no LAW governing it. >>
Uh huh. That will hold up in a case where Al's shop might be in possession of stolen property. Just the kind of policy that is a magnet for thieves looking for a fence. Of course in the topic of this discussion, the roles could be very well perceived as having been reversed. I made no statement that ID is a matter of law in any state. It's more a matter of common sense and self preservation of a legitimate business.
"Everything is on its way to somewhere. Everything." - George Malley, Phenomenon
http://www.american-legacy-coins.com
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
If you guys want the thread to die, just stop bringing it back up with the flaming and the "go ahead, attack me for my actions, I dare ya" type of attitude displayed.
Seriously. I have nothing personal against either of you guys, nor against most all of those posting on either side....yes, I have my opinion one what I would have done and what I would have hoped would have been done, but it isn't my action, my coin shop, nor my coin.
Yet, a few folks seem to WANT the attention else they would just let it drop.
Also, I find it interesting that a few folks that talk about how others are doing a lot of judging and shouldn't be....aren't those same folks ALSO judging the ones they claim are doing the judging?
Come on guys....either let it drop or admit you like the attention
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
<< <i>someone cautioned me via PM to just shut-up and not say another word about this incident, the best advice yet. what has happened from the beginning just continues, character assassination, inuendo and supposition by members who think they know all about me. please keep the thread going because you're teaching me more about yourselves than you realize.
strangely, i feel that through no effort on my part to do so, i have irreparably damaged my credibility here, a very strange thing indeed. members i have trusted have seen fit to hammer away while some forum names i don't even recognize have joined the fight. worst of all, there are some that i thought i had a good relationship with through BST transactions and general interaction in threads who have cast doubt on that due to their very judgemental attitudes.
i can't say this LOUD enough------all over one incident that's been picked apart.
and to think, i have noone to blame but myself for bringing it up in the first place. >>
Yeah, but I still love you.
Check out my current listings: https://ebay.com/sch/khunt/m.html?_ipg=200&_sop=12&_rdc=1
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Hey I've got a scenario which hasn't been brought up:
A middle aged woman goes into a relatively busy coin shop with her late husbands modest coin collection which consists mainly of proof sets from 1968 to date. There are about 50 or so sets with quantities varying from 5 to 6 sets per year. These are common clad sets so no contact information is left or even asked for.
10% back of grey sheet bid is offered for each set including a sizeable premium for that 2001-S!
Searching later on the sets reveals a 1968-S No Set set and at least 1 1968 Inverted S Kennedy along with several DCAM 1971-S Kennedy's.
What to do?
IMO, this would be a significantly more expensive loss for the lady, which could have been caught but then, who inspects every proof set that crosses the counter other than to insure that all the coins are in each set? Especially if any quantity is brought in? >>
My response: How the hell does the nature of the material being presented have any bearing on wether or not verifiable ID is obtained from a seller? In the coin shop where I am employed, EVERY seller is required to provide verifiable ID. No exceptions. What is so difficult about making that S.O.P.? The policy provides a basic, legitimate way of claiming that good title has been passed in the event of a L.E. investigation, and it certainly eliminates the excuse of a buyer that "there is no way to reconnect with the seller". Well Al, how about it? >>
My Counter-Response: Simply because Al's shop does not require it as there obviously is no LAW governing it. >>
Uh huh. That will hold up in a case where Al's shop might be in possession of stolen property. Just the kind of policy that is a magnet for thieves looking for a fence. Of course in the topic of this discussion, the roles could be very well perceived as having been reversed. I made no statement that ID is a matter of law in any state. It's more a matter of common sense and self preservation of a legitimate business. >>
As I'm sure this "older gentleman" looked like a thief and I have no doubts that the shop Al works at, is a "legitimate" business.
While not trying to do any "profiling" I'm sure that certain actions by would be sellers could trigger a dealers senses to request or even require id, such as "excessive twitchiness", or "excessive youth" or maybe even needle tracks up and down the arms. I just don't think that it makes sense to "require" id from all potential sellers simply because they are selling something. What if someone were simply selling two of last years clad proof set. Would an id be needed then? What if it were a 14 year old kid selling a Silver Eagle he got for Christmas last year and he didn't have any id? Would an id be required?
The whole point is that "blanket policies" and "what if" scenarios simply do not cover every aspect of running a coin shop and until you actually get behind the counter, relating how "your" coin dealer does it or what "your" coin dealers policies are simply doesn't apply since it wasn't "your" coin dealer involved here. It was somebody else's coin dealer whom keets happens to work for.
The name is LEE!
"Everything is on its way to somewhere. Everything." - George Malley, Phenomenon
http://www.american-legacy-coins.com
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
<< <i>The whole point is that "blanket policies" and "what if" scenarios simply do not cover every aspect of running a coin shop and until you actually get behind the counter, relating how "your" coin dealer does it or what "your" coin dealers policies are simply doesn't apply since it wasn't "your" coin dealer involved here. It was somebody else's coin dealer whom keets happens to work for. >>
Requiring ID in states where it isn't the law may very well make someone who is selling coins go elsewhere. Not because they have stolen coins, but because a lot of people don't like people making "law" on their own behalf.
<< <i>
Chicken and cat, a Chinese restaurant delicacy!!
<< <i>Lyds, the point I made about a policy requiring ID obviously covers more than the aspect of insulating against stolen goods purchases or deterring thieves, but you conveniently chose to twist the context of my point by inferring that I consdered the old man to be a thief to avoid recognition of the true value of such a policy. And you obviously don't understand that no matter what rationale that Al AND his employer have for not requiring verifiable ID from a seller, Al would be just as complicit in the current setup for any circumstance that may arise regarding a point of law or ethics. >>
I'm not really "twisting" anything, just offering another view to the "legitimate" business aspect.
The name is LEE!
<< <i>"I have found that many folks demand more of
others,then they are prepared to do themselves.
It is somewhat like a politician demanding moral
ethics of others, while they are cheating on their
wife.
This incident is merely one of 10,000 that occur
every day. What folks declare they would do in a
hypothetical situation, is often quite different than
they would do in real life."
Well said, Bear, and I just thought that it bore repeating. I don't suffer hypocrisy well myself.
Keets, I for one am glad it came back real, and suspected it would... just from your description of the makeup of the deal. I am also glad your boss evidently decided to share in the good fortune with you.
Others seem to forget that, as I recall, an unsuccessful attempt was indeed made to contact the owner about the find. But you know the general sentiment here. We dealers are all evil greedy SOBs that should be able to live on 10% but preferably less, we aren't allowed to make mistakes, and should know everything about every coin series, US and foreign, ancient and medieval, plus varieties, errors, etc...and each and every new issue before it comes out, otherwise we are thieves, cheats, liars, swindlers, lazy, and rotten to the core. And God forbid we should accidentally hit a home run on something because that would certainly prove how evil we truly are.
If the guy ever returns kick him something extra on the next deal. You did nothing wrong so don't lose any sleep because of the self-righteous puffery of others.
Speaking of which...as to the rest of the hypocritical who are spouting their "if-I-was-you" statements (when we all know darn well many of them have no qualms about coming here to crow about their latest find/rip/upgrade/whatever)... instead of just talking about it, how about you put up a shingle and show us how it's done?
Spend some time on the other side of the counter, running a B/M, doing this 6 days a week, 50 weeks a year, plus shows, plus appraisals, plus daily buying and selling, making a payroll, or just doing ANYTHING in this business other than making snarky little drive-by comments on a forum...
AND THEN, maybe, just maybe, you'll have the right to come tell us how a "good dealer" should run a business, never overlook something, never make a mistake...
I gotta stop posting for a while and let my blood pressure go down.
RIP Mom- 1932-2012
No, why stop now?
Your rant casts dealers in a bad light, and I am sure that there are many of your colleagues who would want to dissociate themselves from you and others who feel the same way. (That's my snarky, little drive-by comment for the day.
<< <i>I gotta stop posting for a while and let my blood pressure go down.
No, why stop now?
Your rant casts dealers in a bad light, and I am sure that there are many of your colleagues who would want to dissociate themselves from you and others who feel the same way. (That's my snarky, little drive-by comment for the day.
<< <i>
<< <i>I gotta stop posting for a while and let my blood pressure go down.
No, why stop now?
Your rant casts dealers in a bad light, and I am sure that there are many of your colleagues who would want to dissociate themselves from you and others who feel the same way. (That's my snarky, little drive-by comment for the day.
Moi?
RYK I respect you and your opinions and suspect you realize you aren't considered part of the drive-by crowd...but I don't see where telling the truth is casting anyone in a bad light (other than perhaps with those who don't particularly like what i said because it might have touched a nerve), and would be surprised if other dealers would dissociate themselves from my point, which is simply that dealers are human beings.
And in case no one's picked up on it yet, I take strong exception to the "all dealers are crooks" mentality.
As to the rest of it, I stand behind what I said. To anyone who thinks they have the numismatic business world all figured out ... the water's fine, jump in. (I've been in it a quarter century and freely admit I sure as heck don't know it all!)
RIP Mom- 1932-2012