Does PCGS Certify the "Counterstamped" Stone Mountain Commems?

CoinRaritiesOnline · November 22, 2007 11:52PM

I know that NGC does. Does PCGS? If so, what is the "PCGS coin number"?

tydye · November 22, 2007 11:59PM

PCGS does not grade counterstamps. Even ones that are classified as HTT and/or in Rulau. I asked and even tried once.

CoinRaritiesOnline · November 23, 2007 1:03AM

Thanks for the info. You saved me some time on this.

gecko109 · November 23, 2007 1:08AM

<< PCGS does not grade counterstamps. Even ones that are classified as HTT and/or in Rulau. I asked and even tried once. >>

That is not true. Recently saw (and passed on) a PCGS MS61 Trade dollar WITH chopmarks. A chopmark is actually just a counterstamp. Now lets watch the debate unfold!!!

tydye · November 23, 2007 1:58AM

Well - maybe that is the only exception. As I asked them on more than one occasion about counterstamps. They gave me a blanket no. I even went so far as to submit one anyway just to see what would happen. Nope.
Are chop-marks counterstamps? They are listed in Brunks. But to my knowledge cannot be traced to one person or company. But I admit to not knowng much about them.

gecko109 · November 23, 2007 2:09AM

If you wouldnt consider a chopmark to be a form of a counterstamp, what category would it fall under? Off the main discussion, I was almost upset when I saw that coin. To me, a chopmark, or counterstamp of any type, is simply post mint damage. It would be in the same family as an "X" scratched into a coin, or even a love token. Why is it "acceptable" to PCGS to encapsulate one type of post mint damaged coin, but not another? Furthermore, a contemporary chopmark could then be added to an otherwise MS rare dollar to cover some other type of damage/problem, such as a tiny "X" scratched into a coin. I would absolutely LOVE to hear from HRH on this subject!

PerryHall · November 23, 2007 2:13AM

<< If you wouldnt consider a chopmark to be a form of a counterstamp, what category would it fall under? Off the main discussion, I was almost upset when I saw that coin. To me, a chopmark, or counterstamp of any type, is simply post mint damage. It would be in the same family as an "X" scratched into a coin, or even a love token. Why is it "acceptable" to PCGS to encapsulate one type of post mint damaged coin, but not another? Furthermore, a contemporary chopmark could then be added to an otherwise MS rare dollar to cover some other type of damage/problem, such as a tiny "X" scratched into a coin. I would absolutely LOVE to hear from HRH on this subject! >>

gecko109 · November 23, 2007 2:48AM

Mr. Hall, if you get a chance to read this thread, and I'm aware you are an extremely busy man, could you answer me in my PM? I'd rather not go through 15-20 pages of posts to see your response. Thanks.

njcoincrank · November 23, 2007 3:02AM

Dave,

Please PM me.

njcoincrank

gecko109 · November 23, 2007 3:03AM

<< Dave,

Please PM me.

njcoincrank >>

LOL...Obviously the sarcasm was lost on you.

tydye · November 23, 2007 3:07AM

A counterstamp is post mint damage but unlike a scratch is collectable. Notice how the coins are postioned in the slab. I collect the counterstamp. And if a guy named Houck damaged any of your bust halfs. LMK and I will gladly replace them x 4 with undamaged bust halfs

sinin1 · November 23, 2007 3:10AM

the RF in this thing is a counterstamp

gecko109 · November 23, 2007 3:13AM

I will agree 100% that they are collectible. Just about anything you can think of is collectible. My opinion however is not whether they are collectible, but whether they should be slabbable. If you in fact agree that these counterstamps, and chopmarks are post mint damage, then shouldnt they be bodybagged by both NGC and PCGS? Encapsulation by NCS wouldnt bother me at all to verify the coin and the stamp are authentic, but how can anyone argue that they should be allowed in regular issue top TPG slabs?

tydye · November 23, 2007 3:20AM

Do chop-marked Traded Dollars have their PCGS number? Can they be included in a Registry Trade Dollar Set? I would hope that they have their own PCGS number and that they cannont be included in a Trade Dollar Set. Just as much as I dont think a Counterstamped Half Dollar should be allowed in a bust half regsitry set. But what about a HTT set.

gecko109 · November 23, 2007 3:27AM

Not sure on your questions. All I know for sure is that I saw one in a 61 PCGS slab and was disturbed. Forget registry sets, these things are CLEARLY post mint damaged coins and should not be slabbed when other "less decorative/historical" damaged coins are BB'd.

PerryHall · November 23, 2007 4:20AM

I bet PCGS will slab a gold dubloon with a "EB" counterstamp.

pocketpiececommems · July 9, 2009 7:10PM

Would PCGS put these in a Genuine slab now??

Dropdaflag · July 9, 2009 9:52PM

I was under the impression that the counter-stamped Stone Mountains were more desirable than the non-stamped ones and far more rare.

Billet7 · July 10, 2009 12:17AM

<< I was under the impression that the counter-stamped Stone Mountains were more desirable than the non-stamped ones and far more rare. >>

I would take one off your hands...and I must agree that PCGS doesn't "usually" certify counterstamps...with a few exceptions. The Sou being one...the Brasher being another. I think they also certify the Cal. stamped gold piece, chop-marked trade dollars, etc.

Does PCGS certify chopped coins of other types...I have seen some seated dollars that have been chopped...will they certify one of these?

Would you consider the confederate restrikes a type of counterstamp? I think they fit the bill...the counterstamp just covers the entire reverse.

BillJones · July 10, 2009 12:45AM

<< If you wouldnt consider a chopmark to be a form of a counterstamp, what category would it fall under? Off the main discussion, I was almost upset when I saw that coin. To me, a chopmark, or counterstamp of any type, is simply post mint damage. It would be in the same family as an "X" scratched into a coin, or even a love token. Why is it "acceptable" to PCGS to encapsulate one type of post mint damaged coin, but not another? Furthermore, a contemporary chopmark could then be added to an otherwise MS rare dollar to cover some other type of damage/problem, such as a tiny "X" scratched into a coin. I would absolutely LOVE to hear from HRH on this subject! >>

You are bucking up against a matter of traditon here. Way before there was a PCGS, a least a few chop marks on Trade Dollars did not lower the grade. A footnote to that effect was in the very first Brown and Dunn grading book I bought in 1961. I'll tell you that back "in the old days" it didn't matter if they lowered the grade or not, it made it harder to sell the coin, and you got less for it grade for grade.

mommam17 · July 10, 2009 12:46AM

I think counter stamped Stoneys have a number stamped on the back of it? There were some at an auction a few years ago and they were not slabbed. I don`t think they were slabbing them back then?

savoyspecial · July 10, 2009 9:45AM

>>Would PCGS put these in a Genuine slab now??>>

i certainly hope not.......there would be some confusion over what is being certified as 'genuine,' the coin or the stamp

i have seen:
a) genuine coins with genuine stamps
b) contemporary counterfeits with a legitimate stamp
c) governement issued coinage with some type of 'fraudulent' stamp (fantasy stamp or modern recreation of a known stamp)
d) bad coin with bad stamp

i think we all agree that "a" would be deserving of a genuine slab even if the host coin showed signs of a cleaning or other impairment.......likewise, i think there would be consensus that coins in group "d" should not be slabbed as 'genuine'

the problem lies with the two hybrid groups "b" and "c" and it goes back to the original question: what is being authenticated, the coin or the stamp

savoyspecial · July 10, 2009 9:48AM

re-reading my post i realize that i should point out that the categorizing of coins (groups "a" through "d") were not specific to the Stone Mountain Commems but rather were general comments covering all countermarked coinage

Does PCGS Certify the "Counterstamped" Stone Mountain Commems?

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Does PCGS Certify the &quot;Counterstamped&quot; Stone Mountain Commems?

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Does PCGS Certify the "Counterstamped" Stone Mountain Commems?