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Getting a refund on a BB'd coin
xphobe
Posts: 605
This is somewhat complicated, so I want to be sure I present the facts as fairly as possible.
I bought a coin on ebay for $2500. Though this was more than I had ever spent on an ebay coin, the dealer has positive feedback in the thousands and I decided to take a chance.
In his auction he states that if the coin is removed from the stapled 2x2 it is considered sold, no refund.
When I received the coin, I immediately submitted it to PCGS, with the stipulation that if it was not gradeable (I suspected it was cleaned) to put it in a holder labeled "Genuine". I am more concerned about its authenticity than about a grade.
After 3 months it came back BB'd, in an acetate flip with a sticker that says "Not Genuine", inside a poly ziplock bag.
So I contacted the seller with the bad news and asked him for a refund. He asked why I didn't ask him before submitting it, why it had taken 3 months, and since I had (or PCGS had, under my authority) removed the coin from the holder it was not returnable. But he said to send him some photos of the coin, and he would decide what to do.
So I sent him the best pics I could, without removing it from the flip. There is glare from the flip, and he says he can't really see the condition of the coin, so now he wants me to send him the coin and he will "see what's what."
Up to now our correspondence has been cordial and I want to keep it that way. I have not argued with him about removing the coin, although it seems to me that once a coin is determined to be a forgery, the original terms of the contract are voided. But I don't know, I'm not a lawyer.
What would you do? He has my $2500, and now he wants the coin back too. I have no reason to believe he would be dishonest, but I am now very nervous.
Thanks for your advice.
I bought a coin on ebay for $2500. Though this was more than I had ever spent on an ebay coin, the dealer has positive feedback in the thousands and I decided to take a chance.
In his auction he states that if the coin is removed from the stapled 2x2 it is considered sold, no refund.
When I received the coin, I immediately submitted it to PCGS, with the stipulation that if it was not gradeable (I suspected it was cleaned) to put it in a holder labeled "Genuine". I am more concerned about its authenticity than about a grade.
After 3 months it came back BB'd, in an acetate flip with a sticker that says "Not Genuine", inside a poly ziplock bag.
So I contacted the seller with the bad news and asked him for a refund. He asked why I didn't ask him before submitting it, why it had taken 3 months, and since I had (or PCGS had, under my authority) removed the coin from the holder it was not returnable. But he said to send him some photos of the coin, and he would decide what to do.
So I sent him the best pics I could, without removing it from the flip. There is glare from the flip, and he says he can't really see the condition of the coin, so now he wants me to send him the coin and he will "see what's what."
Up to now our correspondence has been cordial and I want to keep it that way. I have not argued with him about removing the coin, although it seems to me that once a coin is determined to be a forgery, the original terms of the contract are voided. But I don't know, I'm not a lawyer.
What would you do? He has my $2500, and now he wants the coin back too. I have no reason to believe he would be dishonest, but I am now very nervous.
Thanks for your advice.
0
Comments
Since it has been 3 months, paypal will not help you and nor will your CC company. You pretty much have to trust the dealer. Of course if something is to go wrong, report it to the ANA and BBB. Also posting the dealers name here will not be good for business at all.....and I have an idea of who you're talking about.
AJ
PCGS Registries
Box of 20
SeaEagleCoins: 11/14/54-4/5/12. Miss you Larry!
I wish you the best of luck, and please do, keep us posted. If the seller stiffs you, we for sure want him or her outed publicly......
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
And I did make an archive copy of the eBay auction, so I do have all the original pictures. Not that that means anything...
And no, it's not ernie.
I agree you should send the coin back and any info like a screenshot of the grade on the tpg's web site and a copy of the submission form with it.
Make sure to send the coin in a fashion that a signature is required.
I hope you get your money back.
Was it gold?
BooHoo
I recommend that you stay cordial with the seller and appeal to his common sense. No coin dealer would be willing to lose his (her)reputation selling counterfeits. At least in my little world
Check out my current listings: https://ebay.com/sch/khunt/m.html?_ipg=200&_sop=12&_rdc=1
1. Why did it take three months to get the coin graded? With a coin of that value and the way you bought it you should have simply paid for a faster grading.
2. Learn to take a decent photo or get someone who can. It is not hard to take a good photo of a coin in a flip, if you cant, then get someone who can.
3. Before you sent it in for grading and before you bought the coin you should have contacted the seller and made an agreement as to what would happen if it turned out fake.
4. I know it sucks to be out your money and I feel bad for having to tell you this but its your fault and the seller has no obligation to refund your money with the way you set things up. The best you could hope for is the he believes you and for some reason would refund you money after this long of a time period. If I was the seller I would think you were trying to scam me, I mean come on three months, never mentioned it before at all. I would tell you sorry but after this much time you should have contacted the seller and let them know so you could have set something up. Put yourself in the sellers position, someone buys a coin for 2300, 90 days later he says I sent it in and it was fake, seller asks for a photo and you send him a blurry pic. If I was the seller all of that would throw up a red flag and honestly I would probly just block you thinking you were trying to scam me, but then again I dont sell raw coins so I dont have this problem
<< <i>If PCGS calls a coin "Not Genuine", does that mean that they have determined that it is not genuine, or that they can not determine if it is genuine? See the difference? I know it's a subtle distinction but it's important to me. Based on the density I believe the metal content is correct. >>
I am of the understanding that if PCGS calls a coin "Not Genuine" then they have declared it a fake.
As you know the metal content means nothing. Most good counterfeits have metal compositions very similar to the original genuine article.
<< <i>The seller clearly stated that if the 2X2 was opened no refund. Then you wait 3 months??
BooHoo >>
You clearly need a hug and if you were near, I'd offer one to you!
On any hand, I believe that xphobe, you should have had it analyzed by a dealer. 2500 for a raw coin on ebay is just asking for it. I'm sorry to read of your unfortunate experience. This appears to be a very negative experience that I hope to never ever have to endure, and so I've kept a maximum of $500 for raw coins on ebay. But I'm also not a buyer of gold coins [yet]. So things could change. I hope it works out for you and that something positive comes out of this. Also, since you did purchase a coin, and assuming it was a US coin, you can always do what ANACS claims they would do...and contact the secret service. Apparently they'll recoup your funds pay while tracing the coin to it's original source.
Best of luck no matter what!
If I were the OP, I would file a dispute with my CC company IMMEDIATELY. And, I would ship the coin back to the dealer with signature confirmation.
There is no time limit for refunds of counterfeit coins.
IF he is an ANA member or a PCGS member and refuses a refund, he wont remain one if you complain to them also. Print out the original auction page if its still up, because it wont be for much longer.
James
Flying Eage Coins
<< <i>
<< <i>If PCGS calls a coin "Not Genuine", does that mean that they have determined that it is not genuine, or that they can not determine if it is genuine? See the difference? I know it's a subtle distinction but it's important to me. Based on the density I believe the metal content is correct. >>
I am of the understanding that if PCGS calls a coin "Not Genuine" then they have declared it a fake.
As you know the metal content means nothing. Most good counterfeits have metal compositions very similar to the original genuine article. >>
That is correct, they are declaring it either a counterfeit or an altered date/added mintmark.
If they are unable to tell for certain, the BB it "No decision" and refund your fees.
are they authorized PCGS or NGC dealers?
what kind of negatives do they have on eBay?
a very similar thing happened to me about 5 years ago - I sent the fake gold dollar back in an envelope
and then got a nasty email from the seller yelling when am I going to send it
I knew I was screwed and was out cost/grading fees/fake coin
a legit dealer will honor their authenticity claim - a criminal will screw you (again)
The dealer requires you to leave it in the flip so that you can't swap coins with him. One scumsucker buyer out of 10,000 will buy a good coin raw and try to return a similar but inferior coin to the seller saying "this coin has been cleaned" or something similar that describes the coin he wants to return. That is what he is supposedly protecting himself from.
However, in this case, if I've guessed right about the seller, the flip makes it hard to see some of the problems in the coins he is selling also. I bought one that looked good in the flip but was harshly cleaned when I got it out and could get good light on it.
So the only issue with taking it out of the flip is concern that he will say that you've swapped coins, and the coin he sent you was real. But isn't this academic, it had to be taken out of the flip for PCGS to grade it so the staple has been removed already, right?
--Jerry
If I had sunk that much money into a coin that was "questionable in authenticity" that I had purchased from some eBay seller, I would have used the $50 express 5 day submission level. The coins authenticity would have been known within 5 days.
In the future, and this applies to every single person reading this thread, if you have a questionable coin that you purchased off ebay with a price that is greater than $500 and the seller will refund your money if it proves to be counterfeit, then USE THE EXPRESS SUBMISSION LEVEL. That way, you don't eat up your PayPal or CC support waiting for a coin to get returned and possibly losing ANY recourse (other than dealer trust) for recouping your cost in purchasing a counterfeit coin. $50 plus shipping is a small price to pay to avoid the headache you now have.
Hopefully, this will work out for you, otherwise your tuition (in the school of hard knocks) is going to be a bit stiff!
The name is LEE!
You're absolutely right. You are just GUESSING and don't really know the first thing about this transaction. Don't try the "hollier than thou" routine without having some facts to back it up
I've never sent in a coin for grading before, because I prefer raw coins. I only did it to determine if the coin was genuine. I wasn't given a choice of turnaround times. Why it took 3 months, I have no idea. PCGS doesn't either. They only say that world coins are taking much longer these days.
And since I know you guys love pics, here is a photo typical of the ones I can take. Now I would never claim to be an expert with a camera, but as you can see this is not blurry, and the glare is not too bad even through the flip. I don't think this is a bad photo for a quarter-sized coin. Certainly there is enough detail there to determine that it is the same coin sent to me. For example, see the little curl in the field at the left eagle shoulder? That's a pedigree mark for this coin, and there are others, which can be seen in the original photos... assuming the dealer is honest.
You whine in your threads about being threatened by 5 guys off of ebay? Gee, I wonder why. Sell the hog and seek some serious mental help ASAP.
And remember
to
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
<< <i>notwilight
You're absolutely right. You are just GUESSING and don't really know the first thing about this transaction. Don't try the "hollier than thou" routine without having some facts to back it up >>
Look in the mirror to see "holier than thou". Perhaps you might try making a numismatic post someday instead of just sniping every poster who asks for help? --Jerry
edit: but of course, in hindsight, what accounts for more of the odd appearance is that it's fake!
ouch.
edit#2: My apologies for posting a pic of a "dark side" coin on the US coin forum. It's just that I haven't posted here in years, and most of my old friends are here on this side since I'm mostly a US collector. I can usually spot a US fake a mile away. Not so with world coins I guess.
<< <i>notwilight
You're absolutely right. You are just GUESSING and don't really know the first thing about this transaction. Don't try the "hollier than thou" routine without having some facts to back it up >>
When WAS the last time you actually made anything resembling a postive post?
Check out my current listings: https://ebay.com/sch/khunt/m.html?_ipg=200&_sop=12&_rdc=1
There is currently one on ebay malasia which is probably fake too but it doesn't look like yours.
I'd be very reluctant to ship the coin back with a "lets see what we can do" type attitude. He could then say you shipped him back a rock, a different coin, or who knows what BS if he is planning to scam you. Thinking about what he might claim, I might try to get a dealer with an excellent reputation to confirm PCGSs "Not Genuine" opinion and then have him ship it back, just to add more strength to your position if it comes down to the credit card company making a decision on who is scamming who.
Good luck,
Jerry
There are what appears to be blobs of metal in the denticals, and the denticals are uneven and have a "toothy" appearence.
There also appears to be a spike from the wing on K-2
<< <i>I'm guessing the seller is ernie who has a reputation for selling cleaned and problem coins but not counterfeit. I hope he makes it right. --Jerry >>
It is waaaaay out of bounds to announce that you "guess" the seller is anybody in this situation in which you do not know the facts (as evidenced by this statement by the OP):
<< <i>And no, it's not ernie. >>
1. Don't bid on raw $2500 coins on Ebay.
2. If you insist on bidding on raw $2500 coins on Ebay, make sure you know the seller very well and are clear on his policies.
3. If you are planning to send the coin in to verify its authenticity, you should have discussed this with the seller up front and made it a condition of sale. If that wasn't possible, you shouldn't have bid.
4. For a $2,500 coin, you should have used a faster service, in which you could have received an answer from the grading service in a week or two and not three months.
5. I have seen coins (admittedly quite obscure ones) first called 'Not Genuine' which were later graded. So I would not conclude that this this is 100% NG based on this result. It is not an encouraging sign, however.
6. At this point, with this piece in hand, I would try to prove to the seller that it is the same piece from the original Ebay listing via photographs. If you send the coin back to the seller, and he is not reputable, he may keep it, summarily announce that the coin is not the same one he sold and consider the case closed.
7. Go back and read 1 through 3 again.
<< <i>4. For a $2,500 coin, you should have used a faster service, in which you could have received an answer from the grading service in a week or two and not three months. >>
Not always true with World coins when PCGS is having difficulty authenticating it. Did the OP ever state which service he used? If it was Regular, 15-day, then I can very well see why it took that long to get the coin 'graded'. I've had this happen to me with World coins. Obviously his best option was to use Express service but that is all moot now.
DPOTD-3
'Emancipate yourselves from mental slavery'
CU #3245 B.N.A. #428
Don
<< <i>
<< <i>4. For a $2,500 coin, you should have used a faster service, in which you could have received an answer from the grading service in a week or two and not three months. >>
Not always true with World coins when PCGS is having difficulty authenticating it. Did the OP ever state which service he used? If it was Regular, 15-day, then I can very well see why it took that long to get the coin 'graded'. I've had this happen to me with World coins. Obviously his best option was to use Express service but that is all moot now. >>
Doesn't PCGS have a few outside experts/consultants that they send coins to if they don't have the expertise in house? Perhaps this is what took so long.
You violated terms and he violated terms.
Since he did wrong first, he must make restitution in my opinion.
You should pay all shipping/ins charges and he should learn.
Really though... there are so many variables and I'm sorry for both of you guys. He probably got "ripped off", too.
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
have PCGS grade my coin. When it came back as not what centsles claimed it was
he (actually she) his wife, refunded my 3k.
If I was you i'd do as the seller asks. I know it feels weird having to send back the coin
with them having both coin and money but that is usually how one gets a refund.
Good luck and keep us informed.
Steve
<< <i>Does anyone here give refunds without the buyer returning the coin first? >>
Does anyone here sell counterfeit $2500 coins? But you are right, the coin has to be returned, thus I suggested some extra protection in returning it. --Jerry
<< <i>
<< <i>I'm guessing the seller is ernie who has a reputation for selling cleaned and problem coins but not counterfeit. I hope he makes it right. --Jerry >>
It is waaaaay out of bounds to announce that you "guess" the seller is anybody in this situation in which you do not know the facts (as evidenced by this statement by the OP):
<< <i>And no, it's not ernie. >>
>>
This is exactly the method ernie uses on his raw coins and I pointed out that his reputation is that he does NOT sell counterfeit coins. So that was a positive for ernie and for the OP. Everything else I posted has been discussed here many, many times. Once I figured out it wasn't ernie, I was more concerned for the OPs money. --Jerry
If you doubt the opinions of some of the experts here...go across the street there is a gent there (I need not post his name, but his initials are MF) who "really" knows his stuff and can give you an opinion that hopefully will be unbiased. There is a Lemming effect on any message board and as soon as one poster cries "WITCH", all pitch in with a Monty Pythonesque "BURN HER" "BURN HER"!!
Frankly, I think you own that coin now. Time is of the essence on any type of questionable authenticity problem.
[and though I am far from an expert on that piece, it screams FAKE to me]
Send it across the street...
Steve
<< <i>I know I may ruffle a few feathers with my comment.. PCGS could have made a mistake..
Send it across the street...
I like that way of thinking, actually. It's most objective.
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
<< <i>
<< <i>I know I may ruffle a few feathers with my comment.. PCGS could have made a mistake..
Send it across the street...
I like that way of thinking, actually. It's most objective. >>
And no, there is no way that I would send the coin back to him, it is evidence, it would be like giving OJ the gloves. Next if he refused or failed to reply, I would call the police dept in his town, speak to the fraud or robbery bureau and explain what had happened. A visit from a detective is usually enough to convince the perp to make good rather than face criminal charges.
I know for a fact that you have every right to seek redress and a good pd will look into cases like this.
<< <i>Wow, it's hard to believe that so many people here believe that this is a case of sorry, too late now to do anything. This is a criminal case pure and simple. What I would do, is give the seller one more chance to refund the sale price or that I would pursue criminal action against him.
And no, there is no way that I would send the coin back to him, it is evidence, it would be like giving OJ the gloves. Next if he refused or failed to reply, I would call the police dept in his town, speak to the fraud or robbery bureau and explain what had happened. A visit from a detective is usually enough to convince the perp to make good rather than face criminal charges.
I know for a fact that you have every right to seek redress and a good pd will look into cases like this. >>
If the seller knew from the get go that it was a fake then maybe.....
One must send the coin back first if one wants a refund.
Or you think the seller will send the money back so the buyer can have the money and the coin?
Does not work that way.
Steve
Is the coin actually made out of platinum? Is it a one ounce coin?