1.....keep in touch with the seller, ask him what he intends to do.
2......by all means call his local police (I think I already agreed with this) again, just be prepared as they may tell you this is a civil matter not a criminal one.
3.....contact CC company if you used one.
4.....PP and ebay should be contacted regardless if the time limits they impose are up.
5.....threaten seller with a letter from a lawyer that you intend to follow this through.
You come out and say you guys, are all....blah balah balah....who cares, but you go on and on. Get a grip, take a deep breath and call your pharmacist.
<< <i>I'm guessing the seller is ernie who has a reputation for selling cleaned and problem coins but not counterfeit. I hope he makes it right. --Jerry >>
The OP said it wasn't Ernie. I know that I sure would be upset if someone said something like that about me in a public discussion regarding a transaction that I had abolutely nothing to do with.
You guys make me laugh, but lets not let any facts get in the way.
ha
Steve >>>
<<<lol
You guys make me laugh.
You have NO IDEA if the coin is really in fact a fake, for one.
You have NO IDEA what the seller intends to do for another.
You have NO IDEA about what is criminal and what is not.
I just hope none of you are ever on a jury.>>>
Let's put the whole thing out there Steve....... You guys, you have you have you have ....... Look you've been upset since I called bs on your statement that at most it is a civil matter and you got all bent out of shape, pm'ed about messing with "the big guys" so go jump in a lake....you couldn't be more wet!
Furthermore, I would like to add that I know that is wasn't you that said anything about the swat team but it was said.
However, you were the one that brought up the hang em from a tree words in whatever form, and however you meant it ...whether or not it was directed at law enforcement or not, most everyone, and probably most on this forum DO take offence when someone wants to for their own personal reason, use a negative imagery of lynching and lets not call it anything else Mr. Steve, brings it into a conversation.
You can dispute the purchase with Ebay or PayPal and report him to EBay for selling counterfeit coins if he doesn't offer you a quick total refund. If he has feedback in the thousands, then EBay business must be important to him, and feedback of a counterfeit coin with no refund would hardly be good for his business. You will have to return the coin, but he should refund you immediately. If you paid by check or money order, you should still be protected by the dispute process. Good luck on this one....it should work out. Best thing I could tell you is don't pay anything over a few dollars for ungraded coins. Your only real protection is to ONLY BUY GRADED COINS! It is impossible (for all but a chosen few....very few) to properly grade a coin by a picture.
My apologies to ebay seller ernie. I could edit out my post but I think it would be better to leave it there and apologize.
I've received a PM in addition to CCUs post saying that I was wrong for guessing the seller in such a serious thread. I never meant to demean him at all. My initial intent in guessing him was to point out that he is not known for selling counterfeit coins which was meant to be good news for the OP (i.e., I would consider it good news for the buyer and expect him to fix any problem with a counterfeit coin.)
Additionally, ernie and I sell different types of coins and I don't even remotely consider him a competing dealer--so don't think I'm a dealer taking a pot shot at another dealer. My only experience with him is buying a raw coin for my collection which turned out to be cleaned. Since then I've noticed other posts about him and that is why I am familiar with his requirements to leave the coin in the flip with the staple intact.
In summary, I never meant to drag him into it or disparage his name in this thread.
<< <i>Does anyone here give refunds without the buyer returning the coin first? >>
Does anyone here sell counterfeit $2500 coins? >>
Certainly not knowingly, but it's easy to be fooled and unwittingly sell a counterfeit. See how many people thought that 1925-D $2.5 Indian I posted the other day was legit...
<< <i>I am very disappointed that so many of you blame on the buyer for buying a $2500 coin on eBay. It is not the buyer’s fault to spend $2500 to buy a coin. If no one want to buy on eBay then what is good for the honest eBay seller. Please we should work together both buyer and seller to stop any dishonor buyer and seller on eBay and make eBay a better and safe place to do business. >>
Yadda yadda yadda...
The majority of my eBay business is done selling raw and slabbed world coins. When I see the picture above, all sorts of red flags go up. I would have NEVER pulled the trigger on that coin, regardless of the price point, especially 4 figures.
I don't think people are blaming the buyer for purchasing a $2500 coin on eBay (I've bought and sold coins of that amount on eBay, albeit never raw), but rather the MANNER in which the buyer bought it and his communication or lack thereof with the seller.
If there was ANY reservation as to the authenticity of the coin and provisions for certification, that should have been discussed ideally in advance of purchase, but certainly within 24 hours of receipt. If the buyer doesn't know enough about the series they are purchasing in order to see any prospective red flags before sending it off for certification, then the buyer has ZERO BUSINESS buying raw coins of this nature. Sorry, but it's true.
To send the coin off for certification on a non-walkthrough basis, without notifying the seller, and still expecting return privileges is just dain bramaged.
To wait 90 days before even mentioning the issue to the seller garners a giant "Here's your sign."
Did the seller know it was counterfeit? We'll never know. I've seen dealers tricked by worse. Granted, given the dollar value in question, one would hope that the dealer would have to be at least somewhat knowledgeable.
That being said, there's plenty of blame to go around, but in this case the buyer's utter lack of communication or establishing ground rules for a return with the seller within a reasonable time period nullify his claims in my opinion. I'm sorry, but all the people calling for the lynching of this seller are out of their collective minds.
EDIT: How do we know the coin pictured is the one that the seller actually sent him? After all, as long as we're all willing to jump to conclusions and excoriate the seller...
You're absolutely right. I was stupid, stupid, stupid. I should never have bid that much on a coin from an unknown dealer, I should have communicated better, I should have let him know up front what I planned to do - preferably before the bidding closed. Lesson learned, I'm never going to do that again.
However, none of that negates the fact that it is a counterfeit coin, which was illegal to sell in the first place. Please note I'm not blaming the seller, he probably didn't know it was fake. I'll give him the benefit of the doubt.
If it were simply a question of grade, or if it had been cleaned or otherwise messed with in some way, I'd have no problem eating it. I would never have contacted the seller.
But this is a legal issue, which trumps all other considerations. For example, if you buy stolen fenced goods and the police confiscate it, you lose it. Doesn't matter whether you knew the goods were stolen in the first place. Whatever contract you had with the seller doesn't matter.
Anyway, I've taken pics, contacted the seller, and I'm going to return the coin tomorrow (signature required of course).
As for whether this coin is the same one sent to me ... I only have my archived copy of the original ebay auction and pics. Of course I suppose I could fake those archived ebay pics, so I have no proof that it is the same, and once he gets the coin I will have no proof that what I sent him is the coin he sent me. I guess I just need to keep my fingers crossed and hope for the best.
Thanks everyone for your help. I will let you know how this turns out.
edited to add: Ive read this thread all the way through and Steve didnt say any of that. I dont really want to be involved in this train wreck anymore, but it just has to be said.
<< <i>Send it back to the dealer, you have nothing to lose except a fake coin. Bummer man, but maybe the dealer will make it right. If not, give him a negative. >>
My thoughts exactly. A counterfeit coin is pretty much worthless unless it's made of gold.....
<< <i>My thoughts exactly. A counterfeit coin is pretty much worthless unless it's made of gold..... >>
... or platinum....
Based on my rough density calculation, it's in the ballpark for Pt (20-21 g/cc), which could only be faked with a few Series 6 metallic elements, all of which are fairly expensive, or hard to find and machine.
This coin weighs about 11 grams, or about 1/3 tr oz. So I may be mailing away about $400 worth of platinum (or rhenium, or osmium, or iridium).
Still, I am keeping my fingers crossed. My instincts haven't let me down before. Oh wait, they have!
God save us all from the whizzing contest about who's right/wrong and who said what to whom. Get a life. Please.
As to the OP...when dealing with the seller, stay nice until it's time to not be nice. Call your CC company and find out how long your chargeback window stays open. I'd go that route...don't ship the coin back until instructed to do so, and use a trackable method with a required signature. As a dealer I stand behind everything I sell as authentic with no time limits. I must agree however that sending a coin of this value to be certified via slow boat wasn't the best choice...if you look at this from the dealer's standpoint you have to admit there would be some question marks on his part 3 months down the line. Bottom line though, reputable sellers stand behind their items. Initiate the chargeback, get your money back and be done with it. Good Luck.
<< <i>The seller clearly stated that if the 2X2 was opened no refund. Then you wait 3 months??
BooHoo >>
Granted, I once decided against opening the flip on a 1794 FH half with AU details to determine authenticity. I asked seller first and he said no. He's high volume seller too. Though I don't recall seeing his auctions lately. But, had I opened the coin and cofirmed it was a fake, I would not hesitate to pursue against the seller. $2500 is a toughie though. A lot of money but not enough to warrant litigation cost effectively.
But, the OP has images from the orig auction. Take it out of the PCGS flip and image again. I bet seller will make good.
Oh, yeah - shmort6552? Having read some of your posts, I think it is fairly safe to conclude that you have deep rooted frustrations. Do you allow your personal inadequacies to skew your views?
buy an expensive coin unslabbed by a first tier TPG
like PCGS. Please let us know what happens. Let us
hope for the best. >>
Bear, I respectfully disagree. While there is risk, there can be rewards. e.g. 2004 ebay sale of 1801 DBHE dollar raw graded VF. I won and sent in to PCGS - came back AU53. Another instance a couple months later, a raw 1803 DBHE dollar scooped for $800 or so. Seller claimed it would slab but obviously the puffery did not help the hammer. PCGS 20 was the result. These are a couple of the better results. I did win a 1799 bogus dollar back in 2004. Had the Notched R as noted in the PCGS counterfeit detection guide. Seller took her back no problemo. I don't find the opportunities that I did a few years ago. But on the whole my successes outweighed my failures by a considerable margin.
<< <i>You're absolutely right. I was stupid, stupid, stupid. I should never have bid that much on a coin from an unknown dealer, I should have communicated better, I should have let him know up front what I planned to do - preferably before the bidding closed. Lesson learned, I'm never going to do that again.
However, none of that negates the fact that it is a counterfeit coin, which was illegal to sell in the first place. Please note I'm not blaming the seller, he probably didn't know it was fake. I'll give him the benefit of the doubt.
If it were simply a question of grade, or if it had been cleaned or otherwise messed with in some way, I'd have no problem eating it. I would never have contacted the seller.
But this is a legal issue, which trumps all other considerations. For example, if you buy stolen fenced goods and the police confiscate it, you lose it. Doesn't matter whether you knew the goods were stolen in the first place. Whatever contract you had with the seller doesn't matter.
Anyway, I've taken pics, contacted the seller, and I'm going to return the coin tomorrow (signature required of course).
As for whether this coin is the same one sent to me ... I only have my archived copy of the original ebay auction and pics. Of course I suppose I could fake those archived ebay pics, so I have no proof that it is the same, and once he gets the coin I will have no proof that what I sent him is the coin he sent me. I guess I just need to keep my fingers crossed and hope for the best.
Thanks everyone for your help. I will let you know how this turns out. >>
Best of luck. I suspect this will be a valuable lesson that turns out well for you.
telephoto- You said you stand behind your coins, i could see where a collector my not know for years that they bought a fake. The family may take the coins after the collectors death and try to sell them to other dealers and be told the coin is not real, or a collector in the middle of small far away small country town that never goes to shows and rarely shops in person could own a fake for years ad never know until someone tries to sell it or slab it. If the coin is still in the original flip with sellers info on it would a refund not be made 10 years after the purchase?? I have wondered about that from time to time when the day is slow.
Back before this recent knock off slabbed craze a lot of 1893 S morgan dollar, 1909 s vdb's, fake gold and so on was sold RAW to a lot of unsespecting collectors most likely as the real deal before books on conterfiet detection were written.
Mark NGC registry V-Nickel proof #6!!!! working on proof shield nickels # 8 with a bullet!!!!
<< <i>The seller clearly stated that if the 2X2 was opened no refund. Then you wait 3 months??
BooHoo >>
But, the OP has images from the orig auction. Take it out of the PCGS flip and image again. I bet seller will make good.
>>
You need to prove its the same coin while its IN the PCGS flip. Perhaps you should work out an agreement to have it looked at by another TPG such as NGC.
<< <i>telephoto- You said you stand behind your coins, i could see where a collector my not know for years that they bought a fake. The family may take the coins after the collectors death and try to sell them to other dealers and be told the coin is not real, or a collector in the middle of small far away small country town that never goes to shows and rarely shops in person could own a fake for years ad never know until someone tries to sell it or slab it. If the coin is still in the original flip with sellers info on it would a refund not be made 10 years after the purchase?? I have wondered about that from time to time when the day is slow. >>
Anything we sell is guaranteed genuine, period. I had a guy bring back an 09SVDB with the original receipt no less, 2 years later saying that a guy at a show told him the MM was bad (I knew better but didn't argue). I told him no sweat, asked him if he wanted it slabbed as genuine or just a refund, he said no, just a refund. So I gave him a refund. I knew the coin was real and slabbed it VG later. I'm not saying I never make a mistake but if it's a rarity it doesn't go out our door unless we're positive it's genuine and we guarantee it as such. So yes if I'm still around 10 years later and it's bad, you get your $ back, although the VAST, VAST majority of people aren't going to wait that long. I will state one caveat though...you have to prove it's the coin I sold you if I don't remember selling it (i.e., receipt, auction listing, etc.).
Just wanted to let you all know how this turned out.
I did return the coin to the seller, in the PCGS flip. He asked me for paperwork from PCGS on their official letterhead, explaining their decision. Well, I know that PCGS doesn't do that as a rule, but I called them, and they sent me a letter on letterhead, saying that submission # xxxxx was not genuine.
I went ahead and forwarded that letter to the seller, he thanked me, and mailed me a refund check for the full amount, which has cleared!
I am very happy that I got out of this without having to eat $2500. The seller and I stayed nice to each other. It took months, but the time factor wasn't a big deal to me - if you've ever played chess by mail you're used to the wait.
The seller is honorable and I would definitely do business with him again (although I wouldn't be surprised or blame him if he blocks me...)
And I've learned my lesson. I've started asking up front before bidding. A couple weeks ago I saw an obvious fake. The seller said "You can waste your money on a TPG if you want to but I guarantee it is real, and will refund if not happy." Needless to say I didn't bid.
<< <i>Just wanted to let you all know how this turned out.
I did return the coin to the seller, in the PCGS flip. He asked me for paperwork from PCGS on their official letterhead, explaining their decision. Well, I know that PCGS doesn't do that as a rule, but I called them, and they sent me a letter on letterhead, saying that submission # xxxxx was not genuine.
I went ahead and forwarded that letter to the seller, he thanked me, and mailed me a refund check for the full amount, which has cleared!
I am very happy that I got out of this without having to eat $2500. The seller and I stayed nice to each other. It took months, but the time factor wasn't a big deal to me - if you've ever played chess by mail you're used to the wait.
The seller is honorable and I would definitely do business with him again (although I wouldn't be surprised or blame him if he blocks me...)
And I've learned my lesson. I've started asking up front before bidding. A couple weeks ago I saw an obvious fake. The seller said "You can waste your money on a TPG if you want to but I guarantee it is real, and will refund if not happy." Needless to say I didn't bid.
Again, thanks for everyone's advice. >>
Good for you!
Collector of Large Cents, US Type, and modern pocket change.
Comments
1.....keep in touch with the seller, ask him what he intends to do.
2......by all means call his local police (I think I already agreed with this)
again, just be prepared as they may tell you this is a civil matter not a criminal one.
3.....contact CC company if you used one.
4.....PP and ebay should be contacted regardless if the time limits they impose are up.
5.....threaten seller with a letter from a lawyer that you intend to follow this through.
Good luck.
Steve
Steve
<< <i>By all means call the local police that goes without saying.
Just be prepared for them to tell you it is a civil matter.
Then it is up to you to file a small claims case against the seller.
Steve >>
From what school is your law degree?
Check out my current listings: https://ebay.com/sch/khunt/m.html?_ipg=200&_sop=12&_rdc=1
Are you saying that a police dept may not say that to him?
Or are you prepared to ask this very same question to the other
people that said basically the same thing? Or is it bust my balls day for you?
Steve
<< <i>there's no nice way to put this. you are a idiot for paying that much for someting on ebay from a dealer w/ no particularly known reputation
i hope you get your $$$ back but do yourself a favor, GET OFF OF EBAY!!!
create a relationship w/ real dealers & save yourself headache & heartache over the long haul
And make sure you ALWAYS get your coin into plastic - as fast as possible!
K S >>
Well said, dork!
Check out my current listings: https://ebay.com/sch/khunt/m.html?_ipg=200&_sop=12&_rdc=1
Just be prepared, they may tell you it is a civil matter.....
Steve
<< <i>I have no law degree, what I have is experience in a similar matter.
Are you saying that a police dept may not say that to him?
Or are you prepared to ask this very same question to the other
people that said basically the same thing? Or is it bust my balls day for you?
Steve >>
Nah, in fact I usually like your posts and always appreciate your viewpoint.
It's just that when you, or anyone here, makes a point of law I like to know upon what professional basis such points are made.
Editred for keystroke error.
Check out my current listings: https://ebay.com/sch/khunt/m.html?_ipg=200&_sop=12&_rdc=1
He never mentioned a name so we have no idea who the seller is.
Steve
<<<From what school is your law degree? >>>
Doesn't need a legal degree, he made a ruling: lol
<<<lol this is not a criminal case. It is a civil matter. (if that)
If the seller knew from the get go that it was a fake then maybe.....>>>
maybe what? string them....oh I dont want to paraphrase so i wont say it.
yeah nice try on the, To blinded by ego
I think you need a course in reading comprehension.
Steve
sure.
Keep replying you are sinking faster with each post.
I await your next round about reply.
Steve
What I did say:
<>>>>>>However, lets be prudent and give the seller a chance to make good before
we hang him from the nearest tree.>>>>>>>>>>>
So where did I say law enforcement would hang this guy?
No mentioning of swat teams, geez this is just to easy.
So four driver get the last word in, just please attribute to me what I say and not what
you think I say.
Ciao
Steve
Agree to disagree and lose all the name calling as I said earlier.
If there is anywhere I called you anything worse than a Liberal (God forbid!). Please show it to me.
I did no name calling when you accused me of it.
(hey I thought you were no longer talking to me)?
Only after you sat here and accused me of saying things that I did not say
did I call you an idiot, well you are an idiot.
Not sure what else I can say?
Steve
Never said anything like that either
What I did say:
You guys make me laugh, but lets not let any facts get in the way.
ha
Steve
Always remember: pillage BEFORE you burn.
Check out my current listings: https://ebay.com/sch/khunt/m.html?_ipg=200&_sop=12&_rdc=1
<< <i>I'm guessing the seller is ernie who has a reputation for selling cleaned and problem coins but not counterfeit. I hope he makes it right. --Jerry >>
The OP said it wasn't Ernie. I know that I sure would be upset if someone said something like that about me in a public discussion regarding a transaction that I had abolutely nothing to do with.
Just remember... It could always be worse.....
Never said anything like that either
What I did say:
You guys make me laugh, but lets not let any facts get in the way.
ha
Steve >>>
<<<lol
You guys make me laugh.
You have NO IDEA if the coin is really in fact a fake, for one.
You have NO IDEA what the seller intends to do for another.
You have NO IDEA about what is criminal and what is not.
I just hope none of you are ever on a jury.>>>
Let's put the whole thing out there Steve....... You guys, you have you have you have ....... Look you've been upset since I called bs on your statement that at most it is a civil matter and you got all bent out of shape, pm'ed about messing with "the big guys" so go jump in a lake....you couldn't be more wet!
However, you were the one that brought up the hang em from a tree words in whatever form, and however you meant it ...whether or not it was directed at law enforcement or not, most everyone, and probably most on this forum DO take offence when someone wants to for their own personal reason, use a negative imagery of lynching and lets not call it anything else Mr. Steve, brings it into a conversation.
<< <i>How does any of this bickering about he said he said, which most of what wasnt even said help, relate, or even have to do with the op? >>
It doesn't but it adds to your post count and the thread post count so +1
Check out my current listings: https://ebay.com/sch/khunt/m.html?_ipg=200&_sop=12&_rdc=1
the coin back. Remain pleasant and give the
seller the opportunity to make things right. You
have learned a very important lesson, never, ever
buy an expensive coin unslabbed by a first tier TPG
like PCGS. Please let us know what happens. Let us
hope for the best.
Camelot
I'm sorry
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
I've received a PM in addition to CCUs post saying that I was wrong for guessing the seller in such a serious thread. I never meant to demean him at all. My initial intent in guessing him was to point out that he is not known for selling counterfeit coins which was meant to be good news for the OP (i.e., I would consider it good news for the buyer and expect him to fix any problem with a counterfeit coin.)
Additionally, ernie and I sell different types of coins and I don't even remotely consider him a competing dealer--so don't think I'm a dealer taking a pot shot at another dealer. My only experience with him is buying a raw coin for my collection which turned out to be cleaned. Since then I've noticed other posts about him and that is why I am familiar with his requirements to leave the coin in the flip with the staple intact.
In summary, I never meant to drag him into it or disparage his name in this thread.
--Jerry
<< <i>
<< <i>Does anyone here give refunds without the buyer returning the coin first? >>
Does anyone here sell counterfeit $2500 coins? >>
Certainly not knowingly, but it's easy to be fooled and unwittingly sell a counterfeit. See how many people thought that 1925-D $2.5 Indian I posted the other day was legit...
1/2 Cents
U.S. Revenue Stamps
<< <i>I am very disappointed that so many of you blame on the buyer for buying a $2500 coin on eBay. It is not the buyer’s fault to spend $2500 to buy a coin. If no one want to buy on eBay then what is good for the honest eBay seller. Please we should work together both buyer and seller to stop any dishonor buyer and seller on eBay and make eBay a better and safe place to do business. >>
Yadda yadda yadda...
The majority of my eBay business is done selling raw and slabbed world coins. When I see the picture above, all sorts of red flags go up. I would have NEVER pulled the trigger on that coin, regardless of the price point, especially 4 figures.
I don't think people are blaming the buyer for purchasing a $2500 coin on eBay (I've bought and sold coins of that amount on eBay, albeit never raw), but rather the MANNER in which the buyer bought it and his communication or lack thereof with the seller.
If there was ANY reservation as to the authenticity of the coin and provisions for certification, that should have been discussed ideally in advance of purchase, but certainly within 24 hours of receipt. If the buyer doesn't know enough about the series they are purchasing in order to see any prospective red flags before sending it off for certification, then the buyer has ZERO BUSINESS buying raw coins of this nature. Sorry, but it's true.
To send the coin off for certification on a non-walkthrough basis, without notifying the seller, and still expecting return privileges is just dain bramaged.
To wait 90 days before even mentioning the issue to the seller garners a giant "Here's your sign."
Did the seller know it was counterfeit? We'll never know. I've seen dealers tricked by worse. Granted, given the dollar value in question, one would hope that the dealer would have to be at least somewhat knowledgeable.
That being said, there's plenty of blame to go around, but in this case the buyer's utter lack of communication or establishing ground rules for a return with the seller within a reasonable time period nullify his claims in my opinion. I'm sorry, but all the people calling for the lynching of this seller are out of their collective minds.
EDIT: How do we know the coin pictured is the one that the seller actually sent him? After all, as long as we're all willing to jump to conclusions and excoriate the seller...
1/2 Cents
U.S. Revenue Stamps
However, none of that negates the fact that it is a counterfeit coin, which was illegal to sell in the first place. Please note I'm not blaming the seller, he probably didn't know it was fake. I'll give him the benefit of the doubt.
If it were simply a question of grade, or if it had been cleaned or otherwise messed with in some way, I'd have no problem eating it. I would never have contacted the seller.
But this is a legal issue, which trumps all other considerations. For example, if you buy stolen fenced goods and the police confiscate it, you lose it. Doesn't matter whether you knew the goods were stolen in the first place. Whatever contract you had with the seller doesn't matter.
Anyway, I've taken pics, contacted the seller, and I'm going to return the coin tomorrow (signature required of course).
As for whether this coin is the same one sent to me ... I only have my archived copy of the original ebay auction and pics. Of course I suppose I could fake those archived ebay pics, so I have no proof that it is the same, and once he gets the coin I will have no proof that what I sent him is the coin he sent me. I guess I just need to keep my fingers crossed and hope for the best.
Thanks everyone for your help. I will let you know how this turns out.
However, you were the one that brought up the hang em from a tree words in whatever form, and however you meant it ..
Listen, I said "lets not hang him from a tree"
Learn to read and comprehend what people say.
And as for the swat remark you attributed to me.
You been wrong all along, admitting it is the first step.
Steve
<<which most of what wasnt even said >>
edited to add: Ive read this thread all the way through and Steve didnt say any of that. I dont really want to be involved in this train wreck anymore, but it just has to be said.
<< <i>Send it back to the dealer, you have nothing to lose except a fake coin. Bummer man, but maybe the dealer will make it right. If not, give him a negative. >>
My thoughts exactly. A counterfeit coin is pretty much worthless unless it's made of gold.....
<< <i>My thoughts exactly. A counterfeit coin is pretty much worthless unless it's made of gold..... >>
... or platinum....
Based on my rough density calculation, it's in the ballpark for Pt (20-21 g/cc), which could only be faked with a few Series 6 metallic elements, all of which are fairly expensive, or hard to find and machine.
This coin weighs about 11 grams, or about 1/3 tr oz. So I may be mailing away about $400 worth of platinum (or rhenium, or osmium, or iridium).
Still, I am keeping my fingers crossed. My instincts haven't let me down before. Oh wait, they have!
As to the OP...when dealing with the seller, stay nice until it's time to not be nice. Call your CC company and find out how long your chargeback window stays open. I'd go that route...don't ship the coin back until instructed to do so, and use a trackable method with a required signature. As a dealer I stand behind everything I sell as authentic with no time limits. I must agree however that sending a coin of this value to be certified via slow boat wasn't the best choice...if you look at this from the dealer's standpoint you have to admit there would be some question marks on his part 3 months down the line. Bottom line though, reputable sellers stand behind their items. Initiate the chargeback, get your money back and be done with it. Good Luck.
RIP Mom- 1932-2012
<< <i>The seller clearly stated that if the 2X2 was opened no refund. Then you wait 3 months??
BooHoo >>
Granted, I once decided against opening the flip on a 1794 FH half with AU details to determine authenticity. I asked seller first and he said no. He's high volume seller too. Though I don't recall seeing his auctions lately. But, had I opened the coin and cofirmed it was a fake, I would not hesitate to pursue against the seller. $2500 is a toughie though. A lot of money but not enough to warrant litigation cost effectively.
But, the OP has images from the orig auction. Take it out of the PCGS flip and image again. I bet seller will make good.
Oh, yeah - shmort6552? Having read some of your posts, I think it is fairly safe to conclude that you have deep rooted frustrations. Do you allow your personal inadequacies to skew your views?
<< <i>You have nothing more to lose sending
the coin back. Remain pleasant and give the
seller the opportunity to make things right. You
have learned a very important lesson, never, ever
buy an expensive coin unslabbed by a first tier TPG
like PCGS. Please let us know what happens. Let us
hope for the best. >>
Bear, I respectfully disagree. While there is risk, there can be rewards. e.g. 2004 ebay sale of 1801 DBHE dollar raw graded VF. I won and sent in to PCGS - came back AU53. Another instance a couple months later, a raw 1803 DBHE dollar scooped for $800 or so. Seller claimed it would slab but obviously the puffery did not help the hammer. PCGS 20 was the result. These are a couple of the better results. I did win a 1799 bogus dollar back in 2004. Had the Notched R as noted in the PCGS counterfeit detection guide. Seller took her back no problemo. I don't find the opportunities that I did a few years ago. But on the whole my successes outweighed my failures by a considerable margin.
<< <i>You're absolutely right. I was stupid, stupid, stupid. I should never have bid that much on a coin from an unknown dealer, I should have communicated better, I should have let him know up front what I planned to do - preferably before the bidding closed. Lesson learned, I'm never going to do that again.
However, none of that negates the fact that it is a counterfeit coin, which was illegal to sell in the first place. Please note I'm not blaming the seller, he probably didn't know it was fake. I'll give him the benefit of the doubt.
If it were simply a question of grade, or if it had been cleaned or otherwise messed with in some way, I'd have no problem eating it. I would never have contacted the seller.
But this is a legal issue, which trumps all other considerations. For example, if you buy stolen fenced goods and the police confiscate it, you lose it. Doesn't matter whether you knew the goods were stolen in the first place. Whatever contract you had with the seller doesn't matter.
Anyway, I've taken pics, contacted the seller, and I'm going to return the coin tomorrow (signature required of course).
As for whether this coin is the same one sent to me ... I only have my archived copy of the original ebay auction and pics. Of course I suppose I could fake those archived ebay pics, so I have no proof that it is the same, and once he gets the coin I will have no proof that what I sent him is the coin he sent me. I guess I just need to keep my fingers crossed and hope for the best.
Thanks everyone for your help. I will let you know how this turns out. >>
Best of luck. I suspect this will be a valuable lesson that turns out well for you.
Back before this recent knock off slabbed craze a lot of 1893 S morgan dollar, 1909 s vdb's, fake gold and so on was sold RAW to a lot of unsespecting collectors most likely as the real deal before books on conterfiet detection were written.
NGC registry V-Nickel proof #6!!!!
working on proof shield nickels # 8 with a bullet!!!!
RIP "BEAR"
<< <i>
<< <i>The seller clearly stated that if the 2X2 was opened no refund. Then you wait 3 months??
BooHoo >>
But, the OP has images from the orig auction. Take it out of the PCGS flip and image again. I bet seller will make good.
>>
You need to prove its the same coin while its IN the PCGS flip. Perhaps you should work out an agreement to have it looked at by another TPG such as NGC.
You took a chance on a coin that you wanted and lost.
The seller, should make good on this because I'm sure
that if it was me I'd know the coin again when I saw it.
So, I'm sure that he will too. Or at least I hope that to be the case.
Good luck and again keep us posted as to the outcome.
Steve
<< <i>telephoto- You said you stand behind your coins, i could see where a collector my not know for years that they bought a fake. The family may take the coins after the collectors death and try to sell them to other dealers and be told the coin is not real, or a collector in the middle of small far away small country town that never goes to shows and rarely shops in person could own a fake for years ad never know until someone tries to sell it or slab it. If the coin is still in the original flip with sellers info on it would a refund not be made 10 years after the purchase?? I have wondered about that from time to time when the day is slow. >>
Anything we sell is guaranteed genuine, period. I had a guy bring back an 09SVDB with the original receipt no less, 2 years later saying that a guy at a show told him the MM was bad (I knew better but didn't argue). I told him no sweat, asked him if he wanted it slabbed as genuine or just a refund, he said no, just a refund. So I gave him a refund. I knew the coin was real and slabbed it VG later. I'm not saying I never make a mistake but if it's a rarity it doesn't go out our door unless we're positive it's genuine and we guarantee it as such. So yes if I'm still around 10 years later and it's bad, you get your $ back, although the VAST, VAST majority of people aren't going to wait that long. I will state one caveat though...you have to prove it's the coin I sold you if I don't remember selling it (i.e., receipt, auction listing, etc.).
Edited for a typo.
RIP Mom- 1932-2012
I did return the coin to the seller, in the PCGS flip. He asked me for paperwork from PCGS on their official letterhead, explaining their decision. Well, I know that PCGS doesn't do that as a rule, but I called them, and they sent me a letter on letterhead, saying that submission # xxxxx was not genuine.
I went ahead and forwarded that letter to the seller, he thanked me, and mailed me a refund check for the full amount, which has cleared!
I am very happy that I got out of this without having to eat $2500. The seller and I stayed nice to each other. It took months, but the time factor wasn't a big deal to me - if you've ever played chess by mail you're used to the wait.
The seller is honorable and I would definitely do business with him again (although I wouldn't be surprised or blame him if he blocks me...)
And I've learned my lesson. I've started asking up front before bidding. A couple weeks ago I saw an obvious fake. The seller said "You can waste your money on a TPG if you want to but I guarantee it is real, and will refund if not happy." Needless to say I didn't bid.
Again, thanks for everyone's advice.
Also, my complements to you for being so calm with the seller, and to the dealer for doing the right thing.
<< <i>Just wanted to let you all know how this turned out.
I did return the coin to the seller, in the PCGS flip. He asked me for paperwork from PCGS on their official letterhead, explaining their decision. Well, I know that PCGS doesn't do that as a rule, but I called them, and they sent me a letter on letterhead, saying that submission # xxxxx was not genuine.
I went ahead and forwarded that letter to the seller, he thanked me, and mailed me a refund check for the full amount, which has cleared!
I am very happy that I got out of this without having to eat $2500. The seller and I stayed nice to each other. It took months, but the time factor wasn't a big deal to me - if you've ever played chess by mail you're used to the wait.
The seller is honorable and I would definitely do business with him again (although I wouldn't be surprised or blame him if he blocks me...)
And I've learned my lesson. I've started asking up front before bidding. A couple weeks ago I saw an obvious fake. The seller said "You can waste your money on a TPG if you want to but I guarantee it is real, and will refund if not happy." Needless to say I didn't bid.
Again, thanks for everyone's advice. >>
Good for you!