A sad tale from the local coin shop ...

291fifth · May 20, 2009 12:40AM

Last week a man came into the shop to sell some album sets of US coins. Among the sets was a complete Lincoln set in a Dansco album. The collector had bought many of the coins, including all of the early keys, on eBay.

The good news ... the 1909-S was genuine.

The bad news ... the 1909-S VDB, 1914-D and 1931-S were all counterfeit or altered pieces.

How many more times will this scene be played out in coin shops across the country?

Sad.

pheh · May 20, 2009 12:49AM

You realize of course that these get sold out of other auctions across the country, coin shops, and even at shows as well.... right?

gecko109 · May 20, 2009 12:53AM

Hard to feel sorry for ANYONE who chooses to buy a raw high dollar coin without the basic fundamental knowledge of how to spot a counterfeit/altered coin! Dont get me wrong, I dont in any way condone selling these junk coins, but if you are smart enough to have aquired perhaps $500 for a raw coin purchase, wouldnt you think you'd also be smart enough to know what the hell you are doing?

291fifth · May 20, 2009 12:59AM

<< You realize of course that these get sold out of other auctions across the country, coin shops, and even at shows as well.... right? >>

Yes, but not from the coin shop that bought the sets.

As an example, flea markets have long been a point of entry for counterfeit and altered coins. Back in the early 1990's my local coin club (now three years departed) had a member who just didn't learn. He did most of his buying at flea markets and would show the other members his purchases. I don't think he ever bought a genuine gold coin. He passed away around 2000. We never learned what happened to his collection.

Billet7 · May 20, 2009 1:32AM

Plastic proves it's usefulness again!

Batman23 · May 20, 2009 2:08AM

<< Plastic proves it's usefulness again! >>

Yes, this is why I do not have a problem buying slabbed coins and cracking them out for my Dansco. I get the grade/quality/authenticity that you do not get from RAW auctions. I have purchased enough undesireable coins raw on Ebay to know!

Smittys · May 20, 2009 2:11AM

Some of the coins like this were bought long before "Plastic" was an option

mozeppa · May 20, 2009 2:26AM

<< Some of the coins like this were bought long before "Plastic" was an option >>

yep ...like back when most people trusted other people.

braddick · May 20, 2009 2:47AM

<< 

<< You realize of course that these get sold out of other auctions across the country, coin shops, and even at shows as well.... right? >>

Yes, but not from the coin shop that bought the sets.

As an example, flea markets have long been a point of entry for counterfeit and altered coins. Back in the early 1990's my local coin club (now three years departed) had a member who just didn't learn. He did most of his buying at flea markets and would show the other members his purchases. I don't think he ever bought a genuine gold coin. He passed away around 2000. We never learned what happened to his collection. >>

At least he lived to a ripe, old age.

yellowkid · May 20, 2009 2:47AM

Is anyone surprised? How many threads have we had here recently about fake coins? Don't buy raw coins unless you really know what you're doing!

drwstr123 · May 20, 2009 2:54AM

Oh yeah, like this is something new. What about faked art, jewelry, gem stones, and yes, even antique cars. Stupid is as stupid does. There's no sense in bieng stupid unless you can prove it.

MidLifeCrisis · May 20, 2009 2:54AM

<< Plastic proves it's usefulness again! >>

It is a sad story...and one we hear all too often.

But I agree with Billet7...thank goodness we have reputable TPG services in our hobby now.

ElKevvo · May 20, 2009 3:06AM

Some of the coins like this were bought long before "Plastic" was an option or message boards like this that help educate folks. I am the semi-proud owner of a 1916-D Mercury dime that I bought when I was a kid with my hard earned paper route money. I purchased it from a guy at the local flea market from whom I bought most of my (at the time) rarer coins. There was no coin shop within major bike riding distance or message boards or internet. I did have a Red Book and a couple other books but no 'Idiots Guide to Detecting Counterfeit Coins' in my Numismatic library. The day I bought that coin still ranks as one of the best days in my collecting lifetime. I was so excited and spent many hours looking at my Mercury Dime collection after that with dreams of completion going through my head now since I had the scarcest one out of the way. Was I disappointed to find out many years later that it was a fake? Heck yeah I was because for many years that was my most expensive and prized coins. I still have not replaced it with a genuine one, but I will someday and now since I know what shenanigans go on in the coin market I will only buy one that is slabbed.

I don't hold a grudge against the guy who sold it to me...not sure if he even knew it was a counterfeit and I still have some of the other type coins I bought from him. But a lot of us grew up and even still as we are adults trust people and are just having fun collecting, not being total coin heads who could spot a counterfeit a mile away. Instead I will leave that up to the good folks at the major TPG's to help me out if needed on any keys or other coins I buy!

K

grip · May 20, 2009 3:13AM

<< 

<< Plastic proves it's usefulness again! >>

Yes, this is why I do not have a problem buying slabbed coins and cracking them out for my Dansco. I get the grade/quality/authenticity that you do not get from RAW auctions. I have purchased enough undesireable coins raw on Ebay to know! >>

When you cracked them out you lost the authenticity.

pennyannie · May 20, 2009 3:16AM

Fake coins come from all over, not just ebay

SirAnthonyAC · May 20, 2009 3:38AM

<< Hard to feel sorry for ANYONE who chooses to buy a raw high dollar coin without the basic fundamental knowledge of how to spot a counterfeit/altered coin! >>

That is true however, we shouldn't blame the victim for being scammed.

Perhaps he purchased from a 100% positive feedback dealer he's brought from before, perhaps his eyes aren't that great, perhaps he looked close but didn't see the alteration, etc.

One of the reasons people who get scammed don't complain is because they are afraid of being yelled at or mocked. I say let's concentrate on the scammer and less on the victim.

Heck, some of those that were scammed by Madoff killed themselves, the victims really should get sympathy.

doh · May 20, 2009 3:54AM

<< Hard to feel sorry for ANYONE who chooses to buy a raw high dollar coin without the basic fundamental knowledge of how to spot a counterfeit/altered coin! Dont get me wrong, I dont in any way condone selling these junk coins, but if you are smart enough to have aquired perhaps $500 for a raw coin purchase, wouldnt you think you'd also be smart enough to know what the hell you are doing? >>

AskRaq · May 20, 2009 4:42AM

<< Plastic proves it's usefulness again! >>

But it's gotta be Certified Plastic... by a highly reputable TPG ~

Here's another "Coin Shop" story for ya'll:

I love to play Texas Hold'em & I deal the game 2-3 times a week as a side-job... one of the regular players has worked in a local Coin Shop for many, many years & on a slow night where we were waiting for players to arrive from another tournament we started discussing coins, etc...

A few months back an elderly gentleman came into the coin shop to sell some of his coins, key dates and such that he ha purchased 15-20 years ago & had kept in his safe deposit box. As the coin shop guy was examining them he saw that overall they were some nice coins, nothing 'moon money', but a couple grande... the gentleman then pulls out an old envelope with a couple coins he had "in reserve" to see how much they would be worth, one was a nice 1916-D Mercury Dime that appeared to be in XF condition - it was encased in a Capital Plastic holder with an original hand written receipt banded to it showing the original purchase price. The coin guy was very impressed and was closely examining it when he said something just didn't seem right about it. He asked the gentleman if he could open the holder to get a better look at the mintmark with a loupe before he gave him a price. The gentleman happily agreed and the holder was opened...... where TWO Mercury dime promptly plinked out onto the counter ~

ColonialCoinUnion · May 20, 2009 5:46AM

<< one was a nice 1916-D Mercury Dime that appeared to be in XF condition - it was encased in a Capital Plastic holder with an original hand written receipt banded to it showing the original purchase price. The coin guy was very impressed and was closely examining it when he said something just didn't seem right about it. He asked the gentleman if he could open the holder to get a better look at the mintmark with a loupe before he gave him a price. The gentleman happily agreed and the holder was opened...... where TWO Mercury dime promptly plinked out onto the counter ~

>>

Do you know how many times I've heard that story from different people who either claim it happened to them or to someone they know? (And note that I haven't been in the business that long).

Either there are thousands of Mercury dime pairs in old Capitol Plastics holders, or this is the numismatic equivalent of the story where a guy buy's an old Harley and discovers it used to be owned by Elvis.

AskRaq · May 20, 2009 5:54AM

<< 

<< one was a nice 1916-D Mercury Dime that appeared to be in XF condition - it was encased in a Capital Plastic holder with an original hand written receipt banded to it showing the original purchase price. The coin guy was very impressed and was closely examining it when he said something just didn't seem right about it. He asked the gentleman if he could open the holder to get a better look at the mintmark with a loupe before he gave him a price. The gentleman happily agreed and the holder was opened...... where TWO Mercury dime promptly plinked out onto the counter ~

>>

Do you know how many times I've heard that story from different people who either claim it happened to them or to someone they know? (And note that I haven't been in the business that long).

Either there are thousands of Mercury dime pairs in old Capitol Plastics holders, or this is the numismatic equivalent of the story where a guy buy's an old Harley and discovers it used to be owned by Elvis. >>

I figured as much... it likely happened to someone along the line. But heh, he is a POKER PLAYER too - LOL

tmot99 · May 20, 2009 5:54AM

<< 

<< 

<< Plastic proves it's usefulness again! >>

Yes, this is why I do not have a problem buying slabbed coins and cracking them out for my Dansco. I get the grade/quality/authenticity that you do not get from RAW auctions. I have purchased enough undesireable coins raw on Ebay to know! >>

When you cracked them out you lost the authenticity. >>

No he didn't. He only lost the ability to prove to the next owner that they are authentic. He has all the proof he needs for himself. The coins are still authentic.

BlindedByEgo · May 20, 2009 6:14AM

<< 

<< one was a nice 1916-D Mercury Dime that appeared to be in XF condition - it was encased in a Capital Plastic holder with an original hand written receipt banded to it showing the original purchase price. The coin guy was very impressed and was closely examining it when he said something just didn't seem right about it. He asked the gentleman if he could open the holder to get a better look at the mintmark with a loupe before he gave him a price. The gentleman happily agreed and the holder was opened...... where TWO Mercury dime promptly plinked out onto the counter ~

>>

Do you know how many times I've heard that story from different people who either claim it happened to them or to someone they know? (And note that I haven't been in the business that long).

Either there are thousands of Mercury dime pairs in old Capitol Plastics holders, or this is the numismatic equivalent of the story where a guy buy's an old Harley and discovers it used to be owned by Elvis. >>

If you want one, I've got one. Right here. 'Cept it's in a paper 2X2 and the coins are glued together

291fifth · May 20, 2009 6:23AM

<< 

<< one was a nice 1916-D Mercury Dime that appeared to be in XF condition - it was encased in a Capital Plastic holder with an original hand written receipt banded to it showing the original purchase price. The coin guy was very impressed and was closely examining it when he said something just didn't seem right about it. He asked the gentleman if he could open the holder to get a better look at the mintmark with a loupe before he gave him a price. The gentleman happily agreed and the holder was opened...... where TWO Mercury dime promptly plinked out onto the counter ~

>>

Do you know how many times I've heard that story from different people who either claim it happened to them or to someone they know? (And note that I haven't been in the business that long).

Either there are thousands of Mercury dime pairs in old Capitol Plastics holders, or this is the numismatic equivalent of the story where a guy buy's an old Harley and discovers it used to be owned by Elvis. >>

I think you've heard the story many times because it has happened many times. It is a numismatic pigeon drop.

mikeyg · May 20, 2009 8:28AM

<< 

<< 

<< Plastic proves it's usefulness again! >>

Yes, this is why I do not have a problem buying slabbed coins and cracking them out for my Dansco. I get the grade/quality/authenticity that you do not get from RAW auctions. I have purchased enough undesireable coins raw on Ebay to know! >>

When you cracked them out you lost the authenticity. >>

Thats true but if you are looking for a real coin for your own collection and you appreciate the look and feel of a coin without the plastic it is worth the loss

Aegis3 · May 20, 2009 8:58AM

<< Plastic proves it's usefulness again! >>

"Plastic" is a very odd way of spelling "knowledge."

PerryHall · May 20, 2009 9:01AM

<< 

<< Plastic proves it's usefulness again! >>

"Plastic" is a very odd way of spelling "knowledge." >>

Don't you think that the folks that put rare coins in PCGS / NGC "plastic" have "knowledge"?

ColonialCoinUnion · May 20, 2009 9:04AM

<< I think you've heard the story many times because it has happened many times. >>

I doubt it. Good story though.

Barndog · May 20, 2009 9:05AM

I understood that the 31-S Lincoln was not counterfeited much

bestday · May 20, 2009 10:16AM

<< Last week a man came into the shop to sell some album sets of US coins. Among the sets was a complete Lincoln set in a Dansco album. The collector had bought many of the coins, including all of the early keys, on eBay.

The good news ... the 1909-S was genuine.

The bad news ... the 1909-S VDB, 1914-D and 1931-S were all counterfeit or altered pieces.

How many more times will this scene be played out in coin shops across the country?

Sad. >>

My Lincoln set assembled in the late 50's , early sixties most from change ..the key Lincolns bought from just one old timer coin dealer..they will be going to PCGS later this year

Aegis3 · May 20, 2009 11:00AM

<< 

<< 

<< Plastic proves it's usefulness again! >>

"Plastic" is a very odd way of spelling "knowledge." >>

Don't you think that the folks that put rare coins in PCGS / NGC "plastic" have "knowledge"? >>

Well of course some of them do (Which is not to say that their use of plastic is applied knowledge. At best it is just acceptance of a flawed system, seeing as how slabbing and numerical grading is probably the worst authentication system that is conceivable). But there are also plenty of people who use plastic w/o any knowledge.

Coinosaurus · May 20, 2009 11:18AM

<< 

<< I think you've heard the story many times because it has happened many times. >>

I doubt it. Good story though. >>

Watch out - now everyone is going to go to the CRO table and start offering them 16-Ds in Capital plastics holders.

Note to self - make sure the 1867-S 25c on the CRO site isn't housed in one of those new "deluxe double width" PCGS holders

BAJJERFAN · May 20, 2009 12:43PM

At least the sad tale didn't involve spent shell casings.

A sad tale from the local coin shop ...

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