I have 2 full sets of Unc ASEs, most of which I personally hand picked each year (starting in 1986) before carefully placing them in Dansco albums. The last 4 or 5 years' worth were picked out for me by a dealer/friend in Nashville and sent to me, since I can't get them at a dealer here in Australia. He always picks real nice ones.
There are a few in there that might make 70 if they were ever sent in, but that won't happen under my watch, so I'll never know. Don't care really. It's just a little tradition I started back when I was in the USAF and still do it. BTW, some of the earlier ones are starting to album-tone nicely!
I do not own any slabbed coins. Never have. Can't say what the future holds, but I have no leanings that way.
Two years ago I bought a 2006 SF MS70RD, The pops for ms70rd lincolns were 41. The BS 03 got removed, the pops went to 40, all SF coins and has remained steady at that number. So while UHRs etc get 70'd all the time the Lincolns seem not to be allowed into that room anymore. So as they have bestowed this grade, they can also "not" award the grade even though a coin merits it. Its 50% coin, 50% plastic.
Treeman and Karl, Good quotes but they still were in the hype--lets just call it poetic license--rather than in the definition of grade. So you can't always tell the difference between a 69 and a 70, can you always tell the difference between a 65 and a 66? Grading is subjective and the 69/70 line is easier for me than the 64/65 line.
I will yield here and say that even though I have literally hundreds of MS70/PR70 PCGS coins in inventory, I don't own a perfect coin. But I own a lot of coins that have been deemed best in class by the most respected TPG and that is what a lot of collectors want. Sure, if your eye is good enough and your self confidence is high enough to be happy with a PQ 69 that you cherry, good for you. Is that any different than picking up a PQ MS64 1837 large cent that has eye appeal to blow the socks off of most 65's ?
In my humble opinion, I totally agree with Karl. The difference between "69" and "70" is EXTREMELY slight at best, non-existant at worst. I believe the whole "70" thing will fade away with time. It is a fabricated grade, created by the ego driven Modern Registry. Just my opinion, which isn't worth much... >>
And some might use the same words to describe all of coin collecting; My bust dollar is nicer than your bust dollar or my Morgan is rarer than your Morgan.
The difference between 69 and 70 is slight. At this level coins are extremely well made so spotting the differences becomes very difficult. With some issues now days almost every coin will be made in grades from PR-68 to PR-70. Dies are swapped frequently and every step of the minting process is done very carefully.
Of course almost any coin from PO-1 to MS-70 might not fall square in thje grade. We don't define the paramters of grading we just use a net grade so there are some odd- balls out there that might grade any of two or three grades when they are submitted. This doesn't mean that a slightly PL scarce Morgan with great surfaces but a slight rub and one gouge in a fairly hidden area shouldn't be collected. It just means that some coins can't be so easily nailed down into a grade.
I'd wager if a 70 Morgan turned up tomorrow there'd be lines around the block of col- lectors wanting to own it.
In my humble opinion, I totally agree with Karl. The difference between "69" and "70" is EXTREMELY slight at best, non-existant at worst. I believe the whole "70" thing will fade away with time. It is a fabricated grade, created by the ego driven Modern Registry. Just my opinion, which isn't worth much... >>
And some might use the same words to describe all of coin collecting; My bust dollar is nicer than your bust dollar or my Morgan is rarer than your Morgan.
The difference between 69 and 70 is slight. At this level coins are extremely well made so spotting the differences becomes very difficult. With some issues now days almost every coin will be made in grades from PR-68 to PR-70. Dies are swapped frequently and every step of the minting process is done very carefully.
Of course almost any coin from PO-1 to MS-70 might not fall square in thje grade. We don't define the paramters of grading we just use a net grade so there are some odd- balls out there that might grade any of two or three grades when they are submitted. This doesn't mean that a slightly PL scarce Morgan with great surfaces but a slight rub and one gouge in a fairly hidden area shouldn't be collected. It just means that some coins can't be so easily nailed down into a grade.
I'd wager if a 70 Morgan turned up tomorrow there'd be lines around the block of col- lectors wanting to own it. >>
I'm sure you're right about a 70 Morgan. However, the Modern coins that are carefully made to be "perfect" usually are, and the difference is slight, if at all. The reason I say this is because I have seen too many instances where a "69" is actually a nicer coin than a "70" from the same TPG. I'm sure you will admit that both NGC and PCGS have graded coins as "69", which were obviously "better" than some they graded "70". I don't doubt that some of you guys can tell the difference, but I DO doubt that any of you would just accept the grade on the slab from either service. I believe that 90% of the people buying these should buy "69's" for the money. I also believe they have about a 50/50 chance of acquiring the SAME QUALITY coin as they would have by paying for the "70" on the label. I don't doubt that some coins are slightly nicer than others, but I DO doubt the TPG's are actually getting the difference right. Seems to me that it's almost a coin flip to see which coins get "70" and which get "69". If you bought 20 "70's" from either TPG, and studied them yourself, how many do you think you would agree are "70's"? Same question with 20 "69's"?
QDB mentions that he awaits the first 70 from gold dollars, heres one I pulled from the heritage auction archives, this is an 1852 PCGS MS69 heres the blurb regarding condition: (BTW this coin sold for 92K)
The gold dollar offered in the present lot is an amazing specimen. It appears to be from new dies with no evidence of lapping or other defects. In a word, this coin is Superb. Both sides have amazing definition of the design, showing every individual element exactly as it was intended by James Longacre. Frosty surfaces have rich orange-gold luster without blemishes of any kind, save for a single minute mark below the digit 5. It is this tiny blemish that prevented an MS70 grade. Without a doubt, this coin in its older green-label PCGS holder represents the ultimate quality Type One gold dollar. Population: 1 in 69, 0 finer (1/06).(Registry values: N1) (#7517)
<< <i>I have literally hundreds of MS70/PR70 PCGS coins in inventory, I don't own a perfect coin. But I own a lot of coins that have been deemed best in class by the most respected TPG and that is what a lot of collectors want. >>
A-HA! bigtime difference here!
there i gotta agree w/ you sentiments, it's quite a nother story when what you are after is the "finest". in that case where you are ranking the coins, then your right that "70" applies. but this is no longer the sheldon grading system. your into mkt grading to some degree. that's fine w/ me, just not the way i find it feasible to collect coins.
i really do not care, not now, not ever, if someone has better coins then me, or if mine is better then his. i buy what i like, but if someone else likes something better, that is actualy even better yet!!! i just ca'nt buy into the "perfection" thing
<< <i>Until I personally can spot the difference between a PCGS/NGC 69 or 70 I won't pay the 70 price tag. If I can not tell the difference between the two then I am just paying for the label at that point. >>
BINGO! ( "x" for a PF69, 30-100X for a PF70 --- Don't believe I'll ever be THAT GOOD !!!!!)
WILL WORK FOR CENTS, QUARTERS, HALVES, DOLLARS....
<< <i>Until I personally can spot the difference between a PCGS/NGC 69 or 70 I won't pay the 70 price tag. If I can not tell the difference between the two then I am just paying for the label at that point. >>
BINGO! ( "x" for a PF69, 30-100X for a PF70 --- Don't believe I'll ever be THAT GOOD !!!!!) >>
I think it is humorous how many people will brag that they can't tell the difference between a 69 and a 70 modern but would never admit that they can't tell the difference between a 64 and 65 morgan. Not saying these posters can't tell the difference but if they can't they won't brag about it. --Jerry
<< <i>Until I personally can spot the difference between a PCGS/NGC 69 or 70 I won't pay the 70 price tag. If I can not tell the difference between the two then I am just paying for the label at that point. >>
BINGO! ( "x" for a PF69, 30-100X for a PF70 --- Don't believe I'll ever be THAT GOOD !!!!!) >>
I think it is humorous how many people will brag that they can't tell the difference between a 69 and a 70 modern but would never admit that they can't tell the difference between a 64 and 65 morgan. Not saying these posters can't tell the difference but if they can't they won't brag about it. --Jerry >>
Good point ... It's easier for me to spot the difference from a Modern 69 to 70, then a 64 to 65 Morgan or Peace.
"Bongo drive 1984 Lincoln that looks like old coin dug from ground."
<< <i>Until I personally can spot the difference between a PCGS/NGC 69 or 70 I won't pay the 70 price tag. If I can not tell the difference between the two then I am just paying for the label at that point. >>
BINGO! ( "x" for a PF69, 30-100X for a PF70 --- Don't believe I'll ever be THAT GOOD !!!!!) >>
I think it is humorous how many people will brag that they can't tell the difference between a 69 and a 70 modern but would never admit that they can't tell the difference between a 64 and 65 morgan. Not saying these posters can't tell the difference but if they can't they won't brag about it. --Jerry >>
Good point ... It's easier for me to spot the difference from a Modern 69 to 70, then a 64 to 65 Morgan or Peace. >>
While that may be true for some, the differences between a 64 and 65 are much more apparent to the naked eye. In addition, the financial risk of paying 65 money for an "average" 64 could be a major catastrophe. It pays to know how to grade these accurately.
A 69 might have some technical manufacturing flaw that would require you to pull out your magnifier, search for clues, send it to the forensic lab, and patiently wait for the results.
In my opinion, the difference between a 64 and 65 is of greater significance than understanding the single micron size blemish that separates a 69 from a 70. Let's not forget that a 69 is a superb, eye-appealing, exceptional coin that would please most collectors, even with the aid of magnification.
"I think it is humorous how many people will brag that they can't tell the difference between a 69 and a 70 modern "
I find it more humorous when people brag that they CAN tell the difference between a 69 and 70 modern! It's pretty obvious that the top TPG's can't seem to tell the difference...
with todays coins who cares 69 or 70 (except all those dealers that make killings selling the 70's for galaxy money-but other than that, if you cant find a 69 then ASK THE MINT FOR ANOTHER AND THAT WILL BE A 70. Ill take the 69 gold dollar any day other this new 70 garbage
Comments
There are a few in there that might make 70 if they were ever sent in, but that won't happen under my watch, so I'll never know. Don't care really. It's just a little tradition I started back when I was in the USAF and still do it. BTW, some of the earlier ones are starting to album-tone nicely!
I do not own any slabbed coins. Never have. Can't say what the future holds, but I have no leanings that way.
SBA's and SAC's
Ooops just took a count, make that 20 PR-70 SBA's and Sac's
all lincoln proofs ...all for sale on the bst board. (shameless plug)
Dwayne F. Sessom
Ebay ID: V-Nickel-Coins
My V Nickel Registry Set - https://pcgs.com/setregistry/alltimeset/71874
<< <i>Anything that grades XX70 is too modern for my tastes. I don't have one in my collection, nor do I own a coin that exists in that grade. >>
Ditto.
Good quotes but they still were in the hype--lets just call it poetic license--rather than in the definition of grade. So you can't always tell the difference between a 69 and a 70, can you always tell the difference between a 65 and a 66? Grading is subjective and the 69/70 line is easier for me than the 64/65 line.
I will yield here and say that even though I have literally hundreds of MS70/PR70 PCGS coins in inventory, I don't own a perfect coin. But I own a lot of coins that have been deemed best in class by the most respected TPG and that is what a lot of collectors want. Sure, if your eye is good enough and your self confidence is high enough to be happy with a PQ 69 that you cherry, good for you. Is that any different than picking up a PQ MS64 1837 large cent that has eye appeal to blow the socks off of most 65's
--Jerry
<< <i>I saw the bald eagle half dollar commemorative pcgs 70's going for under $50 if you want one off of Ebay. >>
This one came to my mind.
<< <i>
In my humble opinion, I totally agree with Karl. The difference between "69" and "70" is EXTREMELY slight at best, non-existant at worst. I believe the whole "70" thing will fade away with time. It is a fabricated grade, created by the ego driven Modern Registry. Just my opinion, which isn't worth much... >>
And some might use the same words to describe all of coin collecting; My bust dollar
is nicer than your bust dollar or my Morgan is rarer than your Morgan.
The difference between 69 and 70 is slight. At this level coins are extremely well made
so spotting the differences becomes very difficult. With some issues now days almost
every coin will be made in grades from PR-68 to PR-70. Dies are swapped frequently
and every step of the minting process is done very carefully.
Of course almost any coin from PO-1 to MS-70 might not fall square in thje grade. We
don't define the paramters of grading we just use a net grade so there are some odd-
balls out there that might grade any of two or three grades when they are submitted.
This doesn't mean that a slightly PL scarce Morgan with great surfaces but a slight rub
and one gouge in a fairly hidden area shouldn't be collected. It just means that some
coins can't be so easily nailed down into a grade.
I'd wager if a 70 Morgan turned up tomorrow there'd be lines around the block of col-
lectors wanting to own it.
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
<< <i>
<< <i>
In my humble opinion, I totally agree with Karl. The difference between "69" and "70" is EXTREMELY slight at best, non-existant at worst. I believe the whole "70" thing will fade away with time. It is a fabricated grade, created by the ego driven Modern Registry. Just my opinion, which isn't worth much... >>
And some might use the same words to describe all of coin collecting; My bust dollar
is nicer than your bust dollar or my Morgan is rarer than your Morgan.
The difference between 69 and 70 is slight. At this level coins are extremely well made
so spotting the differences becomes very difficult. With some issues now days almost
every coin will be made in grades from PR-68 to PR-70. Dies are swapped frequently
and every step of the minting process is done very carefully.
Of course almost any coin from PO-1 to MS-70 might not fall square in thje grade. We
don't define the paramters of grading we just use a net grade so there are some odd-
balls out there that might grade any of two or three grades when they are submitted.
This doesn't mean that a slightly PL scarce Morgan with great surfaces but a slight rub
and one gouge in a fairly hidden area shouldn't be collected. It just means that some
coins can't be so easily nailed down into a grade.
I'd wager if a 70 Morgan turned up tomorrow there'd be lines around the block of col-
lectors wanting to own it. >>
I'm sure you're right about a 70 Morgan. However, the Modern coins that are carefully made to be "perfect" usually are, and the difference is slight, if at all. The reason I say this is because I have seen too many instances where a "69" is actually a nicer coin than a "70" from the same TPG. I'm sure you will admit that both NGC and PCGS have graded coins as "69", which were obviously "better" than some they graded "70". I don't doubt that some of you guys can tell the difference, but I DO doubt that any of you would just accept the grade on the slab from either service. I believe that 90% of the people buying these should buy "69's" for the money. I also believe they have about a 50/50 chance of acquiring the SAME QUALITY coin as they would have by paying for the "70" on the label. I don't doubt that some coins are slightly nicer than others, but I DO doubt the TPG's are actually getting the difference right. Seems to me that it's almost a coin flip to see which coins get "70" and which get "69". If you bought 20 "70's" from either TPG, and studied them yourself, how many do you think you would agree are "70's"? Same question with 20 "69's"?
heres the blurb regarding condition: (BTW this coin sold for 92K)
The gold dollar offered in the present lot is an amazing specimen. It appears to be from new dies with no evidence of lapping or other defects. In a word, this coin is Superb. Both sides have amazing definition of the design, showing every individual element exactly as it was intended by James Longacre. Frosty surfaces have rich orange-gold luster without blemishes of any kind, save for a single minute mark below the digit 5. It is this tiny blemish that prevented an MS70 grade. Without a doubt, this coin in its older green-label PCGS holder represents the ultimate quality Type One gold dollar. Population: 1 in 69, 0 finer (1/06).(Registry values: N1) (#7517)
<< <i>I have literally hundreds of MS70/PR70 PCGS coins in inventory, I don't own a perfect coin. But I own a lot of coins that have been deemed best in class by the most respected TPG and that is what a lot of collectors want. >>
A-HA! bigtime difference here!
there i gotta agree w/ you sentiments, it's quite a nother story when what you are after is the "finest". in that case where you are ranking the coins, then your right that "70" applies. but this is no longer the sheldon grading system. your into mkt grading to some degree. that's fine w/ me, just not the way i find it feasible to collect coins.
i really do not care, not now, not ever, if someone has better coins then me, or if mine is better then his. i buy what i like, but if someone else likes something better, that is actualy even better yet!!! i just ca'nt buy into the "perfection" thing
great thread! many good points made.
K S
Lafayette Grading Set
<< <i>Until I personally can spot the difference between a PCGS/NGC 69 or 70 I won't pay the 70 price tag. If I can not tell the difference between the two then I am just paying for the label at that point. >>
BINGO!
( "x" for a PF69, 30-100X for a PF70 --- Don't believe I'll ever be THAT GOOD !!!!!)
1879-O{Rev}: 1st coin of my "secret set"
<< <i>
<< <i>Until I personally can spot the difference between a PCGS/NGC 69 or 70 I won't pay the 70 price tag. If I can not tell the difference between the two then I am just paying for the label at that point. >>
BINGO!
( "x" for a PF69, 30-100X for a PF70 --- Don't believe I'll ever be THAT GOOD !!!!!) >>
I think it is humorous how many people will brag that they can't tell the difference between a 69 and a 70 modern but would never admit that they can't tell the difference between a 64 and 65 morgan. Not saying these posters can't tell the difference but if they can't they won't brag about it. --Jerry
Not in a slab.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Until I personally can spot the difference between a PCGS/NGC 69 or 70 I won't pay the 70 price tag. If I can not tell the difference between the two then I am just paying for the label at that point. >>
BINGO!
( "x" for a PF69, 30-100X for a PF70 --- Don't believe I'll ever be THAT GOOD !!!!!) >>
I think it is humorous how many people will brag that they can't tell the difference between a 69 and a 70 modern but would never admit that they can't tell the difference between a 64 and 65 morgan. Not saying these posters can't tell the difference but if they can't they won't brag about it. --Jerry >>
Good point ... It's easier for me to spot the difference from a Modern 69 to 70, then a 64 to 65 Morgan or Peace.
I imagine the same applies to a Morgan 64 vs 65, when there's a big price gap;
or to a Hi Grade AU (with slight or incidental wear that one really has to strain to find) vs a Choice MS ...
there are a lot of places to be careful out there, certainly for newbies- and veterans as well, I would think.
I've seen a couple of Morgan MS65s that "bother me"
(bought one, and sold it as quickly as I could)
{ I've been staying away from 19th century proofs, until I understand why some of these are only grading out as PF64 or65}
1879-O{Rev}: 1st coin of my "secret set"
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Until I personally can spot the difference between a PCGS/NGC 69 or 70 I won't pay the 70 price tag. If I can not tell the difference between the two then I am just paying for the label at that point. >>
BINGO!
( "x" for a PF69, 30-100X for a PF70 --- Don't believe I'll ever be THAT GOOD !!!!!) >>
I think it is humorous how many people will brag that they can't tell the difference between a 69 and a 70 modern but would never admit that they can't tell the difference between a 64 and 65 morgan. Not saying these posters can't tell the difference but if they can't they won't brag about it. --Jerry >>
Good point ... It's easier for me to spot the difference from a Modern 69 to 70, then a 64 to 65 Morgan or Peace. >>
While that may be true for some, the differences between a 64 and 65 are much more apparent to the naked eye. In addition, the financial risk of paying 65 money for an "average" 64 could be a major catastrophe. It pays to know how to grade these accurately.
A 69 might have some technical manufacturing flaw that would require you to pull out your magnifier, search for clues, send it to the forensic lab, and patiently wait for the results.
In my opinion, the difference between a 64 and 65 is of greater significance than understanding the single micron size blemish that separates a 69 from a 70. Let's not forget that a 69 is a superb, eye-appealing, exceptional coin that would please most collectors, even with the aid of magnification.
OGH MS68.
Love this coin...
siliconvalleycoins.com
I find it more humorous when people brag that they CAN tell the difference between a 69 and 70 modern! It's pretty obvious that the top TPG's can't seem to tell the difference...
Next highest is an MS-66 3CS and liberty nickel.
signed
~ eBay ~
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
All just 69's