Part I of Mike Faraone's Presentation on Counterfeit Detection at the Members Only Show - Video Counterfeit Link
Interesting video came out last night.
Gecko, I prefer to not have to prove what I have is real. I want to assume it's real vs. assuming it's fake. Again, it's my paranoia - not reality. I admit that I prefer Maple, Eagles, Krug.
<< <i>How secure would one feel buying uncertified 1-oz. Gold Pandas? Even if Chairman Mao handed me a Panda, I can't say with 100% certainty that the coin was .9999 gold. Maybe I am sceptical, but I see to many counterfeit coins-in-general coming out of China. Just my paranoid feelings on gold pandas. >>
Do you have any idea how difficult it would be to produce a "fake gold" coin? I wont get into the particulars of specific gravity here, but let me just tell you that per volume, gold is almost twice as heavy as lead. In fact, there are only a couple of metals that approach/exceed gold's density. Platinum (they wouldnt gold plate platinum), and tungsten (which although is as heavy as gold has an unreal melting point and is almost impossible to mint into coinage). So if you know the diameter and thickness of what a 1oz gold panda is supposed to be, and a $15 scale to weigh it, its virtually impossible to get duped. >>
Numismatic gold coin counterfeits are currently being made with gold of proper weight and fineness so weighing a suspected coin will not give any assurance of authenticity.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>How secure would one feel buying uncertified 1-oz. Gold Pandas? Even if Chairman Mao handed me a Panda, I can't say with 100% certainty that the coin was .9999 gold. Maybe I am sceptical, but I see to many counterfeit coins-in-general coming out of China. Just my paranoid feelings on gold pandas. >>
Do you have any idea how difficult it would be to produce a "fake gold" coin? I wont get into the particulars of specific gravity here, but let me just tell you that per volume, gold is almost twice as heavy as lead. In fact, there are only a couple of metals that approach/exceed gold's density. Platinum (they wouldnt gold plate platinum), and tungsten (which although is as heavy as gold has an unreal melting point and is almost impossible to mint into coinage). So if you know the diameter and thickness of what a 1oz gold panda is supposed to be, and a $15 scale to weigh it, its virtually impossible to get duped. >>
Numismatic gold coin counterfeits are currently being made with gold of proper weight and fineness so weighing a suspected coin will not give any assurance of authenticity. >>
True Perry, however this is being done on coins whose values FAR exceed the value of the gold content alone. We panda collectors simply dont have to worry much about this yet on coins that regularly sell for a 10% premium to actual gold value.
Do what you want, but don't hurt anyone doing it. If you are looking at coins for investment, send money. I will send you your money's worth. I promise.
<< <i>One way to maximize potential profit is to buy coins in - what I believe is called - the hinge grade.
When a coin costs $50 in MS64 and $1000 in MS65 then it is a good idea to buy a nice 64 for $55. >>
Might be nice if you could do that. Done similar for many years and 10% over for a PQ specimen with a 20X multiplier in the next grade just doesn't happen unless the seller is an idiot. It won't happen these days even moreso.
<< <i>One way to maximize potential profit is to buy coins in - what I believe is called - the hinge grade.
When a coin costs $50 in MS64 and $1000 in MS65 then it is a good idea to buy a nice 64 for $55. >>
Might be nice if you could do that. Done similar for many years and 10% over for a PQ specimen with a 20X multiplier in the next grade just doesn't happen unless the seller is an idiot. It won't happen these days even moreso. >>
Its true that the numbers that I described are exaggerated to make a point.
Also, you are correct that these days deals like this are hard to find since most dealers would crack out the 64 and sell the coin raw in the 65 price range rather than sell a PQ64 in the 64 price range.
Yes, the low side of the grade cusp is a great place to buy. I was buying MS64DMPL semikey Morgans there in the last dead market.
Actually, a good direct answer to the OP is to consider DMPL Morgans. They are temporarily out of favor but no less rare. The right date and grade selections and sight-seen inspection is important though.
<< <i>Yes, the low side of the grade cusp is a great place to buy. I was buying MS64DMPL semikey Morgans there in the last dead market.
Actually, a good direct answer to the OP is to consider DMPL Morgans. They are temporarily out of favor but no less rare. The right date and grade selections and sight-seen inspection is important though. >>
based on some of the prices I have been seeing I dont think they are too much out of favor.
If you absolutely have to buy coins for investment purposes, buy $3 gold. The series is deader than a doornail right now, and it is just a matter of time before the next Well-Managed Promotion begins.
Deader than a doornail......you can say that again. $3 gold pieces and the $1 Type 2's are about the deadest US gold coins having lost money over the past 6 months while most US gold has moved up. These are ultimatley key "type" coins bought by true collectors/investors. These won't probably take off again until the whole US coin market improves. There won't be a promotion of these for a long time considering you're getting little gold and a huge premium for the "rarity." That will stay out of vogue at least until we see $1100 gold and then they will move up 10-20%....while most other generic have risen 30-50%. There's a 10X better chance of a well managed promotion to occur in $20 Libs/Saints, $10-$5-$2-1/2 Indian gold, or even "lowly" $2-1/2, $5, $10 Liberty gold than there is $3's and Type 2 -$1's.
At the risk of sounding promotorish....a type 2 dollar gold collection is a man size of chunk of mini series and I dont think anyone has ever pulled it off. thats the best part of a million dollars to do that little set if you can manage to purchase the proofs somehow.
But call me weird I think the Type 2 dollar is a magnificent coin, and a delightful and very difficult series for a well heeled collector. Both the 1855 D and the 1855 C are rarities, the 1856 S very scarce. Stike quality is horrible, it is a series where one can find an XF coin that is 5 times the coin than a weakly struck AU.
There are actually 34 registry sets across the street for T2 dollars (but some are only seeds with one coin).
<< <i>How secure would one feel buying uncertified 1-oz. Gold Pandas? Even if Chairman Mao handed me a Panda, I can't say with 100% certainty that the coin was .9999 gold. Maybe I am sceptical, but I see to many counterfeit coins-in-general coming out of China. Just my paranoid feelings on gold pandas. >>
Do you have any idea how difficult it would be to produce a "fake gold" coin? I wont get into the particulars of specific gravity here, but let me just tell you that per volume, gold is almost twice as heavy as lead. In fact, there are only a couple of metals that approach/exceed gold's density. Platinum (they wouldnt gold plate platinum), and tungsten (which although is as heavy as gold has an unreal melting point and is almost impossible to mint into coinage). So if you know the diameter and thickness of what a 1oz gold panda is supposed to be, and a $15 scale to weigh it, its virtually impossible to get duped. >>
Gecko, very good points about faking gold. I am willing to being duped by gold plated platinum.
I read somewhere that in the 19th century, some fake gold coins were made with gold-plated platinum at a time when platinum was considerably less expensive than gold.
<< <i>The 1804 dollar on sale now is a good investment. >>
Not necessarily. Adams bought that in 1876 for $550 (10% more than one about the same grade sold for the following year: the Davis specimen). It sold later for $340 on 1932 to Col. Green. Admittedly, those were hard economic times. OTOH, no "expert" is really credibly certain of even the relative near future of our economy. Under $1K to $2M is a big jump, but what really matters is where it goes form $2M, or whatever the final hammer.
Comments
Counterfeit Link
Interesting video came out last night.
Gecko, I prefer to not have to prove what I have is real.
I admit that I prefer Maple, Eagles, Krug.
Reference: Coin Links
<< <i>
<< <i>How secure would one feel buying uncertified 1-oz. Gold Pandas? Even if Chairman Mao handed me a Panda, I can't say with 100% certainty that the coin was .9999 gold.
Maybe I am sceptical, but I see to many counterfeit coins-in-general coming out of China. Just my paranoid feelings on gold pandas.
Do you have any idea how difficult it would be to produce a "fake gold" coin? I wont get into the particulars of specific gravity here, but let me just tell you that per volume, gold is almost twice as heavy as lead. In fact, there are only a couple of metals that approach/exceed gold's density. Platinum (they wouldnt gold plate platinum), and tungsten (which although is as heavy as gold has an unreal melting point and is almost impossible to mint into coinage). So if you know the diameter and thickness of what a 1oz gold panda is supposed to be, and a $15 scale to weigh it, its virtually impossible to get duped. >>
Numismatic gold coin counterfeits are currently being made with gold of proper weight and fineness so weighing a suspected coin will not give any assurance of authenticity.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>How secure would one feel buying uncertified 1-oz. Gold Pandas? Even if Chairman Mao handed me a Panda, I can't say with 100% certainty that the coin was .9999 gold.
Maybe I am sceptical, but I see to many counterfeit coins-in-general coming out of China. Just my paranoid feelings on gold pandas.
Do you have any idea how difficult it would be to produce a "fake gold" coin? I wont get into the particulars of specific gravity here, but let me just tell you that per volume, gold is almost twice as heavy as lead. In fact, there are only a couple of metals that approach/exceed gold's density. Platinum (they wouldnt gold plate platinum), and tungsten (which although is as heavy as gold has an unreal melting point and is almost impossible to mint into coinage). So if you know the diameter and thickness of what a 1oz gold panda is supposed to be, and a $15 scale to weigh it, its virtually impossible to get duped. >>
Numismatic gold coin counterfeits are currently being made with gold of proper weight and fineness so weighing a suspected coin will not give any assurance of authenticity. >>
True Perry, however this is being done on coins whose values FAR exceed the value of the gold content alone. We panda collectors simply dont have to worry much about this yet on coins that regularly sell for a 10% premium to actual gold value.
If you are looking at coins for investment, send money. I will send you your money's worth. I promise.
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
And you won't be asking yourself :
Where's the beef ? When I'm done
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
When a coin costs $50 in MS64 and $1000 in MS65 then it is a good idea to buy a nice 64 for $55.
<< <i>One way to maximize potential profit is to buy coins in - what I believe is called - the hinge grade.
When a coin costs $50 in MS64 and $1000 in MS65 then it is a good idea to buy a nice 64 for $55. >>
Might be nice if you could do that. Done similar for many years and 10% over for a PQ specimen with a 20X multiplier in the next grade just doesn't happen unless the seller is an idiot. It won't happen these days even moreso.
NSDR - Life Member
SSDC - Life Member
ANA - Pay As I Go Member
Reference: Coin Links
<< <i>
<< <i>One way to maximize potential profit is to buy coins in - what I believe is called - the hinge grade.
When a coin costs $50 in MS64 and $1000 in MS65 then it is a good idea to buy a nice 64 for $55. >>
Might be nice if you could do that. Done similar for many years and 10% over for a PQ specimen with a 20X multiplier in the next grade just doesn't happen unless the seller is an idiot. It won't happen these days even moreso. >>
Its true that the numbers that I described are exaggerated to make a point.
Also, you are correct that these days deals like this are hard to find since most dealers would crack out the 64 and sell the coin raw in the 65 price range rather than sell a PQ64 in the 64 price range.
But the general rule still holds.
<< <i>
<< <i>I wouldn't invest a dime in coins right now.
Buy them for your personal enjoyment, yes - invest, no. If you want to invest, buy stocks. The right ones are cheap >>
Very good advice.
Just wish I did not lose all my money in stocks so I had some to re-invest.
There are some good deals now. I lost a bunch also, however we need to look forward.
Actually, a good direct answer to the OP is to consider DMPL Morgans. They are temporarily out of favor but no less rare. The right date and grade selections and sight-seen inspection is important though.
NSDR - Life Member
SSDC - Life Member
ANA - Pay As I Go Member
<< <i>Yes, the low side of the grade cusp is a great place to buy. I was buying MS64DMPL semikey Morgans there in the last dead market.
Actually, a good direct answer to the OP is to consider DMPL Morgans. They are temporarily out of favor but no less rare. The right date and grade selections and sight-seen inspection is important though. >>
based on some of the prices I have been seeing I dont think they are too much out of favor.
Deader than a doornail......you can say that again. $3 gold pieces and the $1 Type 2's are about the deadest US gold coins having lost money over the past 6 months while most US gold has moved up. These are ultimatley key "type" coins bought by true collectors/investors. These won't probably take off again until the whole US coin market improves. There won't be a promotion of these for a long time considering you're getting little gold and a huge premium for the "rarity." That will stay out of vogue at least until we see $1100 gold and then they will move up 10-20%....while most other generic have risen 30-50%. There's a 10X better chance of a well managed promotion to occur in $20 Libs/Saints, $10-$5-$2-1/2 Indian gold, or even "lowly" $2-1/2, $5, $10 Liberty gold than there is $3's and Type 2 -$1's.
roadrunner
But call me weird I think the Type 2 dollar is a magnificent coin, and a delightful and very difficult series for a well heeled collector. Both the 1855 D and the 1855 C are rarities, the 1856 S very scarce. Stike quality is horrible, it is a series where one can find an XF coin that is 5 times the coin than a weakly struck AU.
There are actually 34 registry sets across the street for T2 dollars (but some are only seeds with one coin).
<< <i>
<< <i>How secure would one feel buying uncertified 1-oz. Gold Pandas? Even if Chairman Mao handed me a Panda, I can't say with 100% certainty that the coin was .9999 gold.
Maybe I am sceptical, but I see to many counterfeit coins-in-general coming out of China. Just my paranoid feelings on gold pandas.
Do you have any idea how difficult it would be to produce a "fake gold" coin? I wont get into the particulars of specific gravity here, but let me just tell you that per volume, gold is almost twice as heavy as lead. In fact, there are only a couple of metals that approach/exceed gold's density. Platinum (they wouldnt gold plate platinum), and tungsten (which although is as heavy as gold has an unreal melting point and is almost impossible to mint into coinage). So if you know the diameter and thickness of what a 1oz gold panda is supposed to be, and a $15 scale to weigh it, its virtually impossible to get duped. >>
Gecko, very good points about faking gold. I am willing to being duped by gold plated platinum.
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/gold/liberty-head-2-1-gold-major-sets/liberty-head-2-1-gold-basic-set-circulation-strikes-1840-1907-cac/alltimeset/268163
March of Time - 27 Centuries in Gold
https://coins.www.collectors-society.com/WCM/CoinCustomSetView.aspx?s=36590
<< <i>The 1804 dollar on sale now is a good investment. >>
Not necessarily. Adams bought that in 1876 for $550 (10% more than one about the same grade sold for the following year: the Davis specimen). It sold later for $340 on 1932 to Col. Green. Admittedly, those were hard economic times. OTOH, no "expert" is really credibly certain of even the relative near future of our economy. Under $1K to $2M is a big jump, but what really matters is where it goes form $2M, or whatever the final hammer.
NSDR - Life Member
SSDC - Life Member
ANA - Pay As I Go Member