Just so everyone is clear on this....an AGE ,or a SAE, or a UHR are all "coins" by the def

gecko109 · March 5, 2009 11:49PM

A very well respected member tried to say that a UHR is NOT a coin over in the world forum. He is dead wrong.

EarlyDollars · March 5, 2009 11:52PM

What goes on in the World Forum, stays in the World Forum.

notwilight · March 5, 2009 11:52PM

Saying these are not coins is just another form of modern bashing. Get used to it. --Jerry

garsmith · March 5, 2009 11:53PM

It all depends on the quantaty that you have 1-20 are coins 20-100 are bullion over 100 is a hoard.

IrishMike · March 5, 2009 11:56PM

.....and so what?

gecko109 · March 5, 2009 11:56PM

The simple fact is...once a government monetizes a metal disk, it instantly becomes a coin, period. Circulating status has zero to do with the argument, otherwise no proof ever made could be call a coin since they werent "intended for commerce". Monetization is the key element in this debate.

IrishMike · March 6, 2009 12:05AM

Maybe I am just old or don't give a hoot but I gave up a long time ago allowing someone else to affect my mood. Whether its a coin, a modern coin, bullion what difference does it make. The only thing that matters is if you enjoy collecting them. Just tell them to bug (edited) off.

devious · March 6, 2009 12:06AM

While they may be considered coinage, you would have to be pretty dumb to go spend a fifty dollar gold coin at face value in today's market. I think this is why people try to divert bullion from being considered a 'coin' :-)

Hyperion · March 6, 2009 12:09AM

precious metals are more of a coin than the base metal tokens flying around in current circulation....IMHO.

but Ill call 'em all coins for simplicity!

fc · March 6, 2009 1:06AM

if i paint black stripes on a pig do i get to call it a zebra?
by your definition... since the pig now has stripes (denomination) it is a zebra.

tis bullion. fancy bullion. you are just falling for govt sponsored marketing that
only the mint can do.

ColonialCoinUnion · March 6, 2009 1:08AM

<< A very well respected member tried to say that a UHR is NOT a coin over in the world forum. He is dead wrong. >>

What difference does it make?

jmj3esq · March 6, 2009 1:15AM

Just keep telling yourself that. You will feel better.

LanLord · March 6, 2009 1:21AM

Well, I read the thread, problem is I don't respect anyone that has posted in it so I don't really give a rats @$$ what they say!

SCDHunter · March 6, 2009 1:27AM

<< if i paint black stripes on a pig do i get to call it a zebra?
by your definition... since the pig now has stripes (denomination) it is a zebra.

tis bullion. fancy bullion. you are just falling for govt sponsored marketing that
only the mint can do. >>

If you paint black stripes on a pig and represent it as a zebra, that is fraud.

If the value of gold returned to $20/oz, you can take your $50 AGE to the bank and exchange it for $50 in federal reserve notes. You can't do that with bullion.

gecko109 · March 6, 2009 1:31AM

<< 

<< if i paint black stripes on a pig do i get to call it a zebra?
by your definition... since the pig now has stripes (denomination) it is a zebra.

tis bullion. fancy bullion. you are just falling for govt sponsored marketing that
only the mint can do. >>

If you paint black stripes on a pig and represent it as a zebra, that is fraud.

If the value of gold returned to $20/oz, you can take your $50 AGE to the bank and exchange it for $50 in federal reserve notes. You can't do that with bullion.

>>

You could take that $50 AGE to your bank RIGHT NOW and make a $50 deposit to your account. You know why? Cuz its a legal tender, government authorized COIN!

RYK · March 6, 2009 1:31AM

But it doesn't mean I have to like 'em.

mgoodm3 · March 6, 2009 1:45AM

Are they monetized... yes
does the monetization really mean anything in reality... no

gecko109 · March 6, 2009 2:21AM

<< Are they monetized... yes
does the monetization really mean anything in reality... no >>

In theory, I could go down to my bank and deposit $50 into my account via a 1 ounce AGE. I could not, however, deposit anything into my savings account by presenting the teller with a Credit Suisse 1 ounce gold bar. So there IS a difference between the two pieces of gold.

mgoodm3 · March 6, 2009 2:30AM

OK, I give in: I have found the good that can come from monetization of AGE's.

I will gladly give you face value for your AGE's.

gecko109 · March 6, 2009 2:33AM

<< OK, I give in: I have found the good that can come from monetization of AGE's.

I will gladly give you face value for your AGE's. >>

The debate isnt about whether its a good idea to deposit AGE's at face into your bank account, spend them at 7-11, or use them to pay for dinner. The debate IS about whether or not they are "coins". And the fact that you could do any of the above with them, if you choose, proves that they are in fact coins no matter how much you dont want them to be!

mgoodm3 · March 6, 2009 2:37AM

i never said that they weren't coins, just that the monetization is pretty useless other than for ripping off grannies.

HalfStrike · March 6, 2009 2:42AM

If it fits in your pocket and says $50 then it seems to be a coin. I guess the ones saying it isn't a coin wouldn't accept it for a $50 trade?

fc · March 6, 2009 3:02AM

<< 

<< OK, I give in: I have found the good that can come from monetization of AGE's.

I will gladly give you face value for your AGE's. >>

The debate isnt about whether its a good idea to deposit AGE's at face into your bank account, spend them at 7-11, or use them to pay for dinner. The debate IS about whether or not they are "coins". And the fact that you could do any of the above with them, if you choose, proves that they are in fact coins no matter how much you dont want them to be! >>

yet no one does.. and thus no one treats them like coins.

like i said.. mint marketing only the mint can do. anyone else tries
and you get thrown in jail.

bumanchu · March 6, 2009 3:08AM

<< yet no one does.. and thus no one treats them like coins.

like i said.. mint marketing only the mint can do. anyone else tries
and you get thrown in jail. >>

PCGS does. So PCGS is no one to you?

fc · March 6, 2009 3:19AM

<< 

<< yet no one does.. and thus no one treats them like coins.

like i said.. mint marketing only the mint can do. anyone else tries
and you get thrown in jail. >>

PCGS does. So PCGS is no one to you? >>

you lost me. PCGS takes ASEs or AGEs and spends them like coins?

when i meant mint marketing is that they are the only organization
that can put $XXX dollars on a coin and not get arrested for doing
it. See liberty dollars as an example.

gecko109 · March 6, 2009 3:22AM

<< 

<< 

<< OK, I give in: I have found the good that can come from monetization of AGE's.

I will gladly give you face value for your AGE's. >>

The debate isnt about whether its a good idea to deposit AGE's at face into your bank account, spend them at 7-11, or use them to pay for dinner. The debate IS about whether or not they are "coins". And the fact that you could do any of the above with them, if you choose, proves that they are in fact coins no matter how much you dont want them to be! >>

yet no one does.. and thus no one treats them like coins.

like i said.. mint marketing only the mint can do. anyone else tries
and you get thrown in jail. >>

Nobody spends proofs at face value....ok, maybe 1/100th of 1% of all proofs ever made have entered circulation by mistake. Since nobody treats proof as coins, should we disregard them as coins also?

Broadstruck · March 6, 2009 3:29AM

OK gecko109 whatever you say...

Robb · March 6, 2009 3:54AM

<< Nobody spends proofs at face value....ok, maybe 1/100th of 1% of all proofs ever made have entered circulation by mistake. Since nobody treats proof as coins, should we disregard them as coins also? >>

Some do and some don't as evidenced by Whitman, Littleton, Dansco, etc. albums that are with and without proof issues.

AGE, SAE, UHR, etc. are all bullion but I don't understand why "bullion" has to be some naughty word.

gecko109 · March 6, 2009 4:00AM

<< 

<< Nobody spends proofs at face value....ok, maybe 1/100th of 1% of all proofs ever made have entered circulation by mistake. Since nobody treats proof as coins, should we disregard them as coins also? >>

Some do and some don't as evidenced by Whitman, Littleton, Dansco, etc. albums that are with and without proof issues.

AGE, SAE, UHR, etc. are all bullion but I don't understand why "bullion" has to be some naughty word. >>

Its not so much that "bullion" is a naughty word as much as the resistance people have in categorizing it as a "coin". The word "coin" is the most basic and broad numismatic category by far. There are subdivisions in that category though. Proof coin....pattern coin....business strike coin....bullion coin. The point is that these are ALL coins. Remember, all German Shepards are dogs, but not all dogs are German Shepards. Similarly, all NCLT are coins, but not all coins are NCLT.

OPA · March 6, 2009 4:01AM

I suppose the "modern basher" thinks that all 1964 & prior dimes, quarters & halves are also considered bullion and not coins...

BECOKA · March 6, 2009 4:13AM

I think of them as gov. backed bullion. They are monetized bullion discs.

Technically you could spend them but in reality you would not.

gecko109 · March 6, 2009 4:15AM

<< I think of them as gov. backed bullion. They are monetized bullion discs.

Technically you could spend them but in reality you would not. >>

So are they coins or not? Its a simple yes/no question.

BECOKA · March 6, 2009 4:20AM

<< 

<< I think of them as gov. backed bullion. They are monetized bullion discs.

Technically you could spend them but in reality you would not. >>

So are they coins or not? Its a simple yes/no question. >>

I believe in this case they are called rounds not coins.

You can pretty much call them anything you want though, no one will get in trouble for calling them coins.

RYK · March 6, 2009 4:21AM

..and thus no one treats them like coins.

Collectors treat them like coins...no one treats them like money.

gecko109 · March 6, 2009 4:26AM

<< 

<< 

<< I think of them as gov. backed bullion. They are monetized bullion discs.

Technically you could spend them but in reality you would not. >>

So are they coins or not? Its a simple yes/no question. >>

I believe in this case they are called rounds not coins.

You can pretty much call them anything you want though, no one will get in trouble for calling them coins.

>>

The term "round" is used to describe a precious metal disk that is of stated weight and fineness and is NOT produced by a government and monetized. For instance, if you took an SAE and an Engelhard 1 oz round to your bank and asked the teller to deposit them into your savings account, you would only be able to make a $1 deposit. And guess which piece that teller would accept. That is because the SAE is a COIN, and the Engelhard is a ROUND.

BECOKA · March 6, 2009 4:32AM

<< 

<< 

<< 

<< I think of them as gov. backed bullion. They are monetized bullion discs.

Technically you could spend them but in reality you would not. >>

So are they coins or not? Its a simple yes/no question. >>

I believe in this case they are called rounds not coins.

You can pretty much call them anything you want though, no one will get in trouble for calling them coins.

>>

The term "round" is used to describe a precious metal disk that is of stated weight and fineness and is NOT produced by a government and monetized. For instance, if you took an SAE and an Engelhard 1 oz round to your bank and asked the teller to deposit them into your savings account, you would only be able to make a $1 deposit. And guess which piece that teller would accept. That is because the SAE is a COIN, and the Engelhard is a ROUND. >>

So are you saying the SAE does not state weight and fineness?

Just toying with you, I'll call them coins if that is what the country wants me to do.

ColonialCoinUnion · March 6, 2009 4:39AM

I still want to know what difference it makes.

RYK · March 6, 2009 4:42AM

<< I still want to know what difference it makes. >>

It's huge. Once we give in to Gecko, on any topic, it will be impossible to live with him.

Wait a minute, it's already impossible to live with him!

gecko109 · March 6, 2009 4:45AM

<< I still want to know what difference it makes. >>

What difference does it make? We have prominent forum members on this board who are going around stating false info. When a certain member says that a UHR, or an AGE isnt a coin, thats detrimental to the hobby, because it is misinformation. If you see blatant misinformation, or bad information about a specific coin on these boards, do you not try to correct that person? Or are you happy that this bad info is being propagated? I simply think that if we are to be responsible numismatists, we really need to weed out the bulls**t from the facts.

DNADave · March 6, 2009 4:52AM

could you all please take this to the PM forum.

mrpotatoheadd · March 6, 2009 5:05AM

Webster's New World Dictionary:

coin (koin)
n. [ME < OFr coin, coinge, a wedge, stamp, corner < L cuneus, a wedge]
1 (archaic) a: corner , cornerstone , quoin b: wedge
2 a: a usually round piece of metal with a distinctive stamp, and of a fixed value and weight, issued by a government as money b: such pieces collectively
3 [Slang] money

cladking · March 6, 2009 5:06AM

<< precious metals are more of a coin than the base metal tokens flying around in current circulation....IMHO.

but Ill call 'em all coins for simplicity! >>

If a coin has to be worth its weight in metal then a 1935-S quarter
was merely a token as well. It might equally be said that a 2008
nickel that contained more than 10c in metal was some sort of "sup-
er coin".

If you follow this line of thought too far than an unc 1804 dollar is
not only merely NCLT crap but it's not even a coin. It is a bullion
piece since it has some $10 worth of silver in it and can't circulate.
Oddly enough most of the big silver coins in those days weren't
intended or used primarily to circulate so this country has no long-
er made any real coins.

The only real coin is the zinc cent.

This is true irony since the cent isn't even really money.

cladking · March 6, 2009 5:08AM

<< 

yet no one does.. and thus no one treats them like coins.

like i said.. mint marketing only the mint can do. anyone else tries
and you get thrown in jail. >>

...just about the same definition of counterfeiting is it not?

ColonialCoinUnion · March 6, 2009 5:40AM

<< I simply think that if we are to be responsible numismatists, we really need to weed out the bulls**t from the facts. >>

Just to make sure I understand, are you saying that it's still OK to post Chinese Bullion here in the US Coin Forum?

rgCoinGuy · March 6, 2009 5:42AM

<< 

<< I simply think that if we are to be responsible numismatists, we really need to weed out the bulls**t from the facts. >>

Just to make sure I understand, are you saying that it's still OK to post Chinese Bullion here in the US Coin Forum?

>>

Now you've done it! Those are Chinese COINS, can't you read!

gecko109 · March 6, 2009 5:42AM

<< 

<< I simply think that if we are to be responsible numismatists, we really need to weed out the bulls**t from the facts. >>

Just to make sure I understand, are you saying that it's still OK to post Chinese Bullion here in the US Coin Forum?

>>

Of course its not "ok". But just the mental image in my head of RYK's face turning bright red, and veins bulging from his neck when he sees me do it makes the juice worth the squeeze!

IrishMike · March 6, 2009 5:46AM

Why the hell are we even debating this?

66RB · March 6, 2009 5:50AM

<< Why the hell are we even debating this?

>>

So a few people can say they have 'coin collections' instead of 'bullion collections'.

ColonialCoinUnion · March 6, 2009 5:51AM

<< Why the hell are we even debating this?

>>

Honestly, I think it's because Phil is bored.

IrishMike · March 6, 2009 6:00AM

What is funny to me is the belief that we have to define them as coins, either they are or they aren't. Well to me that is like shading every shade of red is just red which of course it is and isn't, we know there are different shades. These are bullion coins because they weren't minted for circulation and their primary value depends upon the underlying metal and to some extent collector interest and we all know that. They are more of a metal commodity than anything else, so if you want an accurate description they are bullion coins.

Again I will ask why does anyone care? If you enjoy collecting them then do so. Is this just another I got to win the argument thread?

cars · March 6, 2009 6:16AM

They are coins, Made from bullion with ridiculously low face value for tax purposes.

Just so everyone is clear on this....an AGE ,or a SAE, or a UHR are all "coins" by the def

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Just so everyone is clear on this....an AGE ,or a SAE, or a UHR are all &quot;coins&quot; by the def

Comments

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Just so everyone is clear on this....an AGE ,or a SAE, or a UHR are all "coins" by the def