True, but there seems to be more truth in his book than anyone is willing to admit. Not a Canseco fan, but he certainly is costing a few people a trip to Cooperstown. Heard him on Howard Stern. When he went off the roids his testosterone dropped so significantly that a certain part of his body was like "a limp Gummy Worm." To quote his girlfriend.
He's fighting Danny Bonaduce...something worse than letting a fly ball bounce off your head for a homer???? >>
Have you read either of Canseco's book? If you have not read either of them, how can you claim anything about them and if you did, how much truth do you find in the statements Canseco makes on Clemens...how he would never do steriods? How Clemens would never cheat, how it wasn't in him.
Collecting PSA graded Steve Young, Marcus Allen, Bret Saberhagen and 1980s Topps Cards. Raw: Tony Gonzalez (low #'d cards, and especially 1/1's) and Steve Young.
<< <i>Why all the animosity towards McGwire? You can't say he 'cheated', because cheating means you've done something against the rules. My understanding is that steroids were not 'against the rules' in baseball in the 90's, so at the very least you have to concede that the issue is kind of murky. Further, at least Big Mac received an eight figure payday to bend the rules. With that kind of treasure trove waiting on the other side of the door it's hard to blame the guy.
Another example of this would be the use of stimulants, such as amphetamines or cocaine. Anyone here who has ever used cocaine probably knows that it allows you to focus very intently for very short periods of time; something which could prove very beneficial when you're, say, in the batter's box. Now, we'll never know how many players in the '70's were hopped up on blow, but I think a reasonable guess would be 'quite a few'. Ditto for amphetamines, which apparently were so ubiquitous in MLB clubhouses 20-30 years ago that they got their own nickname ('greenies').
I think it's OK to keep McGwire out of the HOF. It's an utterly fraudulent institution to begin with, and more of popularity contest than anything else, so I don't have a problem with excluding him. But I think we should draw the line at considering him a 'bad guy', or someone who 'crossed the line', when probably 90% of the US population would have done the exact same thing that he did if they were in his spot.
In sum: If most, or at least many, people would done the same thing that McGwire did in his situation, then it's silly to blame the player. Instead, place the blame on the circumstances that lead to him making the decision in the first place. The insanity does not lie in the fact that McGwire shot steriods; the insanity lies in the fact that he was paid millions upon millions of dollars to do so. >>
I agree with Boopotts. Drugs have been a part of all sports as long as the sport has been around and I have a problem with back dating rules/laws to fit one's perception of right and wrong.
Did anyone watch the Congress hearings on this....I mean really watch it...not the news headlines. I think McGwire answered the questions the same way I would have. It should not have been a few token players on trial, with little of no evidence....a witch hunt. It should have been the MLB on trial.
Collecting PSA graded Steve Young, Marcus Allen, Bret Saberhagen and 1980s Topps Cards. Raw: Tony Gonzalez (low #'d cards, and especially 1/1's) and Steve Young.
<< <i>Did anyone watch the Congress hearings on this....I mean really watch it...not the news headlines. I think McGwire answered the questions the same way I would have. It should not have been a few token players on trial, with little of no evidence....a witch hunt. It should have been the MLB on trial. >>
Exactly what I thought. I seriously thought MLB should have done something to make it into a positive spin. IE, Congress should have worked with MLB and found a few retired players that would speak and NOT require them to mention any names or testify against themselves or anyone. It could have been a fact finding deal that retrieved info from what the retired players saw or experienced during their careers. I truly believe MLB could have come up with a plan and gotten Congress to go with it instead of making McGwire and MLB look stupid.
If you take McGwire's brother's word and assume steroids came into the picture in 1994 (I assume after the 1994 season), that was 9 seasons into McGwire's career. Compare to Kingman through his first nine seasons
Games AB Walks PA Hits AVE HR RBI McGwire 990 3,342 585 3,927 834 .249 238 657
Kingman 1,062 3,584 309 3,893 862 .240 252 663
I took Kingman's stats from his 1980 card (I got the walks total from Retrosheet) and added McGwire's stats from Retrosheet.org (I assume if I made an error in adding someone will correct me)
My point is if McGwire doesn't go on steroids, he most likely would have Kingman numbers for his career and vice-versa. Through nine seasons their stats are very similar.
Very nicely done hdunk. There are those who say Roger Maris should be in the HOF. I can't say that I agree with that, but he certainly does deserve HOF status more than McGwire in my opinion.
In sum: If most, or at least many, people would done the same thing that McGwire did in his situation, then it's silly to blame the player. Instead, place the blame on the circumstances that lead to him making the decision in the first place. The insanity does not lie in the fact that McGwire shot steriods; the insanity lies in the fact that he was paid millions upon millions of dollars to do so.
I will agree with this point, in that many players besides McGwire injected themselves on a regular basis with perfoirmance enhancing drugs and that MLB did very little to clean up the game at that time or until the problem became so obvious that they had no choice but to do so. McGwire will spend the next thirteen years falling well short of HOF induction, an annual reminder that his accimplishments were tainted at best.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
I don't think the argument here is whether or not he should be in the Hall...I think you'd get a nearly unanimous "NO." The question is whether or not he should be persecuted any further. He was a good ambassador for the game for a significant point in time, and he always seemed to be an approachable, humble athlete despite his success (tainted or otherwise).
If he wanted to slap the game of baseball across the face, he could have out and out lied and continued to play the game as if he were completely guilt-free of using PEDs. Instead, he disappeared knowing he'd never make it to the HOF and taking all of the negative attention with him.
Well, that's until Bonds and Clemens got into a mix. Mac was rarely mentioned until the Bonds/Clemens shenanigans started.
I think anyone who is a known PED abuser should be automatically banned from the Hall. Does that mean some will slip by, have slipped by, and will continue to slip by? Yes. I don't think the HOF voters can knowingly permit such stigmas into the Hall though.
All of that aside, some individuals are likeable, some aren't. I find McGwire to be likeable.
I don't think the argument here is whether or not he should be in the Hall...I think you'd get a nearly unanimous "NO."
I disagree with that statement..I think there are a number of McGwire fans who believe he should be in the HOF..
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
<< <i>If I took steroids could I hit 70 bombs in one season? >>
Not a chance. And thats the thing that many people fail to realize, I know you are sorta joking but the bottom line is steroids/hgh assist with strength and faster healing of injuries ect but you still need to have the talent/skills to be able to hit major league pitching let alone HR's..
Grote15 makes the point that there are still those fans who believe McGwire should be in the Hall. This is precisely one of the main reasons I started this thread. Mcgwire and Sosa didn't break any MLB rules during the homerun chase of '98. But this is where the concepts of "integrity for the game, self-respect and pride in workmanship" come into play--and these are the rules they DID break. When it comes to the basic concepts of right and wrong they knew in their own hearts what they were doing was wrong and the numbers they were putting up were fraudulant--that is if they had any personal since of decency and self-respect. So even though they didn't break any technical rules in '98 they did indeed breach a much higher and universally esteemed set of rules for conduct. And it is for this reason McGwire, Bonds, Clemens, Palmeiro, Sosa and the like should never be further rewarded by admittance into the Hall-of-Fame!!
"You tell 'em I'm coming...and hell's coming with me"--Wyatt Earp
Boo said it best: I think it's OK to keep McGwire out of the HOF. It's an utterly fraudulent institution to begin with, and more of popularity contest than anything else, so I don't have a problem with excluding him.
At this point, if you believe deeply in the wonderfulness or the validity of the HOF, I have questions about the way you reason.
McGwire put up crazy HR numbers in his era compared to his peers. If you think that quality makes someone HOF-worthy, you should probably want him in. If you want the HOF to be closed to all jerks and cheaters and accused cheaters, well, it's going to be hard to convince you of anything rational.
In terms of calling the guy out and making him suffer, I guess it just depends on how compelled you are to take sides in a war of words. Personally, I'd rather wait for proof and/or confessions before caring a great deal.
"And it is for this reason McGwire, Bonds, Clemens, Palmeiro, Sosa and the like should never be further rewarded by admittance into the Hall-of-Fame!!" Go back to the convent please, Sister summerof68.
And while you're praying in the convent, think up a name for your newly-named building in Cooperstown -- Hall-of-the-Holier-Than-Thou?? And we'll make you the Mother Superior.
Based on some of the comments on this thread, I am left to wonder why Ty Cobb was inducted into the hall of fame. You can’t tell me that Cobb had integrity for the game, self-respect and pride (well perhaps pride); yet he is in. I mean would the writers elect someone today that climbed into the stands and beat the crap out of a handicapped person for calling him a name? Or would they elect someone who was openly racist and routinely disparaged some of the officials/commissioners of the game?
The point I’m trying to make is that baseball, like almost anything else, goes through different stages of its evolutionary life. Racism and dirty play were necessarily accepted at one point, but not now. Perhaps steroid use is just another evolutionary stage of the game and if so, I propose that steroid use should not be a limiting factor for induction.
<< <i>Based on some of the comments on this thread, I am left to wonder why Ty Cobb was inducted into the hall of fame. You can’t tell me that Cobb had integrity for the game, self-respect and pride (well perhaps pride); yet he is in. I mean would the writers elect someone today that climbed into the stands and beat the crap out of a handicapped person for calling him a name? Or would they elect someone who was openly racist and routinely disparaged some of the officials/commissioners of the game?
The point I’m trying to make is that baseball, like almost anything else, goes through different stages of its evolutionary life. Racism and dirty play were necessarily accepted at one point, but not now. Perhaps steroid use is just another evolutionary stage of the game and if so, I propose that steroid use should not be a limiting factor for induction. >>
The irony about this discussion is that Bud Selig chose to look the other way when it was obvious that these guys were using steroids. Baseball leaned on Mac and Sammy hard--HRs brought back the game.
Personally, I believe that Selig and the owners are every bit as culpable as Bonds, McGuire, Clemmens, Sosa. Palmero, Canceco, and all the rest of them. The irony is that Selig will eventually become enshrined in the Hall, while these other guys will likely languish.
This problem is more extensive than merely players cheating to get into the record book. The horrible thing about steroids is that they kill. Lyle Alzedo let the world know how bad they can be. Yet kids all over the world were taking steroids to bulk up in order to gain a shot at playing here. The steroids they were using in many of the poor Latin American countries weren't the sophisticated high tech Balco creams, the ones these kids were and are using are meant for sheep and cattle. So, to say things like "These guys were only harming themselves, or didn't cause lasting harm to the game, what's the big deal?"--really doesn't capture the extent of the problem. Can you imagine a kid in your family dying of cancer caused by their steroid use.
"...Perhaps steroid use is just another evolutionary stage of the game and if so, I propose that steroid use should not be a limiting factor for induction...."
/////////////////////////////////////
Fine.
Remove all HOF/MLB rules that have to do with "morality."
If a player stays away from capital crimes, he is eligible.
If the HOF is a "life achievement" award, a few bad deeds should not obviate the good contributions a player made to baseball.
And, of course, put Pete Rose in, too.
Folks Who Bite Get Bitten. Folks Who Don't Bite Get Eaten.
Based on some of the comments on this thread, I am left to wonder why Ty Cobb was inducted into the hall of fame.
Cobb was a vile individual, but unlike McGwire, his achievements on the baseball field were legit...he was also elected in 1936, when blacks weren't even allowed to play MLB so I doubt his racism was even an issue at that time in the voter's minds...
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
The sport of baseball evolving? Sure. Evolving to the point where CRIMINAL activity is permitted/acceptable? Uh, no. Lest we forgot, criminal statutes trump the rules of Major League Baseball seven (7) days a week.
NEW YORK (AP)—Baseball authorized nearly 8 percent of its players to use drugs for ADHD last season, which allowed them to take otherwise banned stimulants.
A total of 106 exemptions for banned drugs were given to major leaguers claiming attention deficit hyperactivity disorder from the end of the 2007 season until the end of the 2008 season, according to a report released Friday by the sport’s independent drug-testing administrator.
That’s up from 103 therapeutic use exemptions (TUEs) for ADHD in 2007, according to figures cited by baseball officials before a congressional committee last year.
“This is incredible. This is quite spectacular. There seems to be an epidemic of ADD in major league baseball,” said Dr. Gary Wadler, chairman of the committee that determines the banned-substances list for the World Anti-Doping Agency.
He recommended an independent panel be established—WADA recommends at least three doctors—to review TUE requests in what he termed “a sport that grew up on greenies.”
“I’ve been in private practice for a lot of years. I can count on one hand the number of individuals that have ADD,” he said. “To say that (7.86 percent) of major league baseball players have attention deficit disorder is crying out of an explanation. It is to me as an internist so off the map of my own experience.”
Rob Manfred, baseball’s executive vice president of labor relations, said it would be a mistake to compare ADHD in baseball with statistics for the general population.’
“We are all male. We are far younger than the general population, and we have far better access to medical care than the general population,” Manfred said.
The National Institute of Mental Health estimates 3 percent to 5 percent of children have ADHD, according to its Web site.
There were 1,348 players subject to testing last season, according to a baseball official who spoke on condition of anonymity because the figure was not in the report. That was down slightly from 1,354 the previous year.
There were a total of 19 positives from 3,486 tests, according to the report.
There were 14 positives for banned stimulants—all first-time offenders, who are not subject to suspension. Five players were suspended for performance-enhancing drugs.
Pitchers J.C. Romero and Sergio Mitre were penalized this week after testing positive for androstenedione, which came from contaminated supplements they purchased over-the-counter. Last season, San Francisco catcher Eliezer Alfonso, Colorado catcher Humberto Cota and Florida pitcher Henry Owens also were penalized.
The drugs that tripped them up were Nandrolone, Stanozolol and testosterone, although it wasn’t announced which player tested positive for what drug.
“Pretty low numbers,” union head Donald Fehr said of the five major league suspensions.
Rep. Henry Waxman, who chaired hearings into drug use in baseball, said he remained concerned about the large number of exemptions.
“But overall, I am pleased with the steps taken by MLB and the players’ union to strengthen their drug testing program and eliminate the use of steroids and other performance-enhancing drugs,” he added.
Rep. John Tierney, who brought up the issue last year, was not available for comment.
Just eight TUEs were granted for illnesses other than ADHD: three for hypertension, three for hypogonadism, one for post-concussion syndrome and one for metabolic myopathy. The 114 overall TUEs was up from 111 the previous year.
“All of the prescriptions for stimulants are the result of prescriptions written by doctors, and they also have to be passed on by Dr. Bryan Smith,” Fehr said. “I don’t know what more there is to say about that.”
Starting in 2008, all TUE applications had to be approved by Smith, the program’s independent administrator.
The number of new requests for TUE exemptions for ADHD drugs declined from 72 to 56, according to the baseball official.
Baseball toughened its testing program after the 2007 season following recommendations by former Senate majority leader George Mitchell, who spent 1 1/2 years investigating performance-enhancing drugs in baseball. Smith’s annual report, which was to have been issued by Dec. 1, was one of Mitchell’s recommendations.
Mitchell declined comment, spokesman John Clark Jr. said.
Folks Who Bite Get Bitten. Folks Who Don't Bite Get Eaten.
I know this is a little late, but I agree with the Big Mac = Kingman + 15 years theory.
When you remember that a homerun is credited as a hit, versus a long flyball being credited as an out, it's easy to see that a little arm juice that turns 15 warning track outs a year into 15 extra homers* also increases your .239 by 15 hits.
So Sluggo A, not on juice, gets 115 hits in 480 AB for a .239 average. 35 of those hits are taters; 15 are warning track outs. He acts a lot like Kingman or Gorman Thomas.
Sluggo B comes along during the juice era and turns those 15 warning track outs into first row bombs*. He now has 50 HR and 130 hits in those same 480 AB and with a batting average of .271, he is a hero, a HR champ and a candidate for the HOF.
*I understand that not every HR Big Mac hit was a first row; that's not what I'm saying. What I'm saying is that of Sluggo B's 50, 35 were no doubters and 15 were because of juice.
<< <i>Cobb was a vile individual, but unlike McGwire, his achievements on the baseball field were legit...he was also elected in 1936, when blacks weren't even allowed to play MLB so I doubt his racism was even an issue at that time in the voter's minds... >>
Yes, that's a good point but it begs the question: When were McGwire's achievements on the field actually not legit? Baseball didn't even begin to acknowlege steroid use until at least the mid 90's. And I'm not sure (I need some help here), but when did baseball unilaterally ban the substance? If their use coincided in a time when its use was either accepted, tolerated or wasn't "even an issue", why vilify and/or exclude them?
Again, all things evolve; Institutions, laws, lending practices, etc. We change our perspective on issues based on the past and continually try and tweak the rules. These players were, in a sense, a product of the times just as Cobb was.
I can't stand to hear that steroids were not illegal in baseball until blah blah blah.... They were and are illegal in the everyday world without DOCTOR'S prescription. Everyone of these guys knew they were breaking the law the moment they started using. I've said it before and I'll say it again for those that think steroids don't help you hit a baseball. Yes, it takes a ton of God given hand-eye coordination to hit a 95 MPH pitch, but if you think that strength has nothing to do with it, then why are all of these players lifting weights? If steroids give you the ability to swing the bat 5% faster, and you can wait 5% longer to see the pitch location and variety, you have a HUGE advantage over the other guy. If that ball you just hit then goes 5% deeper, the 370 ft. flyout is now a 388 ft. double or homerun.
I have no doubt that many of these guys started because of injuries, but let's not think it was just to help their team win, it was also becuase of the next big cotract and the almighty dollar.
Personally I'm fine with no McGwire, Bonds, Rose, Cobb, Cepeda, etc.... never getting into the HOF for all kinds of reasons. It should be the best of the best both on and off the field IMO.
The best pitch to start a hitter off with is always strike one.
Baseball's turning a blind eye to what was going on allowed these guys a platform to look like heros. Teenagers model their behavior after these guys and use of steroids among high school atheletes increased more than tenfold during the 90s as baseaball put these guys on a pedistal. All you had to do is look at the forearms of any position player on the A's to know they were on 'roids. Even their 2nd basemen looked like Popeye!
People in the A's organization now acknowledge that they realized they had a conspicuous problem once Jose Canceco fell head-over heels fielding a ground ball in the outfield due to his upper body mass.
Baseball's turning a blind eye to what was going on allowed these guys a platform to look like heros. Teenagers model their behavior after these guys and use of steroids among high school atheletes increased more than tenfold during the 90s as baseaball put these guys on a pedistal. All you had to do is look at the forearms of any position player on the A's to know they were on 'roids. Even their 2nd basemen looked like Popeye!
People in the A's organization now acknowledge that they realized they had a conspicuous problem once Jose Canceco fell head-over heels fielding a ground ball in the outfield due to his upper body mass. >>
Comments
<< <i>
<< <i>Jose Canseco- STILL AN ASS! >>
True, but there seems to be more truth in his book than anyone is willing to admit. Not a Canseco fan, but he certainly is costing a few people a trip to Cooperstown. Heard him on Howard Stern. When he went off the roids his testosterone dropped so significantly that a certain part of his body was like "a limp Gummy Worm." To quote his girlfriend.
He's fighting Danny Bonaduce...something worse than letting a fly ball bounce off your head for a homer???? >>
Have you read either of Canseco's book? If you have not read either of them, how can you claim anything about them and if you did, how much truth do you find in the statements Canseco makes on Clemens...how he would never do steriods? How Clemens would never cheat, how it wasn't in him.
Raw: Tony Gonzalez (low #'d cards, and especially 1/1's) and Steve Young.
<< <i>Why all the animosity towards McGwire? You can't say he 'cheated', because cheating means you've done something against the rules. My understanding is that steroids were not 'against the rules' in baseball in the 90's, so at the very least you have to concede that the issue is kind of murky. Further, at least Big Mac received an eight figure payday to bend the rules. With that kind of treasure trove waiting on the other side of the door it's hard to blame the guy.
Another example of this would be the use of stimulants, such as amphetamines or cocaine. Anyone here who has ever used cocaine probably knows that it allows you to focus very intently for very short periods of time; something which could prove very beneficial when you're, say, in the batter's box. Now, we'll never know how many players in the '70's were hopped up on blow, but I think a reasonable guess would be 'quite a few'. Ditto for amphetamines, which apparently were so ubiquitous in MLB clubhouses 20-30 years ago that they got their own nickname ('greenies').
I think it's OK to keep McGwire out of the HOF. It's an utterly fraudulent institution to begin with, and more of popularity contest than anything else, so I don't have a problem with excluding him. But I think we should draw the line at considering him a 'bad guy', or someone who 'crossed the line', when probably 90% of the US population would have done the exact same thing that he did if they were in his spot.
In sum: If most, or at least many, people would done the same thing that McGwire did in his situation, then it's silly to blame the player. Instead, place the blame on the circumstances that lead to him making the decision in the first place. The insanity does not lie in the fact that McGwire shot steriods; the insanity lies in the fact that he was paid millions upon millions of dollars to do so. >>
I agree with Boopotts. Drugs have been a part of all sports as long as the sport has been around and I have a problem with back dating rules/laws to fit one's perception of right and wrong.
Did anyone watch the Congress hearings on this....I mean really watch it...not the news headlines. I think McGwire answered the questions the same way I would have. It should not have been a few token players on trial, with little of no evidence....a witch hunt. It should have been the MLB on trial.
Raw: Tony Gonzalez (low #'d cards, and especially 1/1's) and Steve Young.
<< <i>Did anyone watch the Congress hearings on this....I mean really watch it...not the news headlines. I think McGwire answered the questions the same way I would have. It should not have been a few token players on trial, with little of no evidence....a witch hunt. It should have been the MLB on trial. >>
Exactly what I thought. I seriously thought MLB should have done something to make it into a positive spin. IE, Congress should have worked with MLB and found a few retired players that would speak and NOT require them to mention any names or testify against themselves or anyone. It could have been a fact finding deal that retrieved info from what the retired players saw or experienced during their careers. I truly believe MLB could have come up with a plan and gotten Congress to go with it instead of making McGwire and MLB look stupid.
brian
He has nothing to gain by coming forward...
Everyone already knows he is guilty...
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Games AB Walks PA Hits AVE HR RBI
McGwire 990 3,342 585 3,927 834 .249 238 657
Kingman 1,062 3,584 309 3,893 862 .240 252 663
I took Kingman's stats from his 1980 card (I got the walks total from Retrosheet) and added McGwire's stats from Retrosheet.org (I assume if I made an error in adding someone will correct me)
My point is if McGwire doesn't go on steroids, he most likely would have Kingman numbers for his career and vice-versa. Through nine seasons their stats are very similar.
<< <i>Everyone already knows he is guilty... >>
Guilty of what, though?
I will agree with this point, in that many players besides McGwire injected themselves on a regular basis with perfoirmance enhancing drugs and that MLB did very little to clean up the game at that time or until the problem became so obvious that they had no choice but to do so. McGwire will spend the next thirteen years falling well short of HOF induction, an annual reminder that his accimplishments were tainted at best.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
If he wanted to slap the game of baseball across the face, he could have out and out lied and continued to play the game as if he were completely guilt-free of using PEDs. Instead, he disappeared knowing he'd never make it to the HOF and taking all of the negative attention with him.
Well, that's until Bonds and Clemens got into a mix. Mac was rarely mentioned until the Bonds/Clemens shenanigans started.
I think anyone who is a known PED abuser should be automatically banned from the Hall. Does that mean some will slip by, have slipped by, and will continue to slip by? Yes. I don't think the HOF voters can knowingly permit such stigmas into the Hall though.
All of that aside, some individuals are likeable, some aren't. I find McGwire to be likeable.
I disagree with that statement..I think there are a number of McGwire fans who believe he should be in the HOF..
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
"Molon Labe"
<< <i> I don't think the argument here is whether or not he should be in the Hall...I think you'd get a nearly unanimous "NO."
I disagree with that statement..I think there are a number of McGwire fans who believe he should be in the HOF.. >>
Sure, there are diehards that want to see him in, but I still think the numbers would lean overwhelmingly, "nay."
Doesn't matter what any of you think....Sports Writers have already spoken. Answer was NO...
<< <i>If I took steroids could I hit 70 bombs in one season? >>
Not a chance. And thats the thing that many people fail to realize, I know you are sorta joking but the bottom line is steroids/hgh assist with strength and faster healing of injuries ect but you still need to have the talent/skills to be able to hit major league pitching let alone HR's..
At this point, if you believe deeply in the wonderfulness or the validity of the HOF, I have questions about the way you reason.
McGwire put up crazy HR numbers in his era compared to his peers. If you think that quality makes someone HOF-worthy, you should probably want him in. If you want the HOF to be closed to all jerks and cheaters and accused cheaters, well, it's going to be hard to convince you of anything rational.
In terms of calling the guy out and making him suffer, I guess it just depends on how compelled you are to take sides in a war of words. Personally, I'd rather wait for proof and/or confessions before caring a great deal.
And while you're praying in the convent, think up a name for your newly-named building in Cooperstown -- Hall-of-the-Holier-Than-Thou?? And we'll make you the Mother Superior.
The point I’m trying to make is that baseball, like almost anything else, goes through different stages of its evolutionary life. Racism and dirty play were necessarily accepted at one point, but not now. Perhaps steroid use is just another evolutionary stage of the game and if so, I propose that steroid use should not be a limiting factor for induction.
<< <i>Based on some of the comments on this thread, I am left to wonder why Ty Cobb was inducted into the hall of fame. You can’t tell me that Cobb had integrity for the game, self-respect and pride (well perhaps pride); yet he is in. I mean would the writers elect someone today that climbed into the stands and beat the crap out of a handicapped person for calling him a name? Or would they elect someone who was openly racist and routinely disparaged some of the officials/commissioners of the game?
The point I’m trying to make is that baseball, like almost anything else, goes through different stages of its evolutionary life. Racism and dirty play were necessarily accepted at one point, but not now. Perhaps steroid use is just another evolutionary stage of the game and if so, I propose that steroid use should not be a limiting factor for induction. >>
Very good points
Personally, I believe that Selig and the owners are every bit as culpable as Bonds, McGuire, Clemmens, Sosa. Palmero, Canceco, and all the rest of them. The irony is that Selig will eventually become enshrined in the Hall, while these other guys will likely languish.
This problem is more extensive than merely players cheating to get into the record book. The horrible thing about steroids is that they kill. Lyle Alzedo let the world know how bad they can be. Yet kids all over the world were taking steroids to bulk up in order to gain a shot at playing here. The steroids they were using in many of the poor Latin American countries weren't the sophisticated high tech Balco creams, the ones these kids were and are using are meant for sheep and cattle. So, to say things like "These guys were only harming themselves, or didn't cause lasting harm to the game, what's the big deal?"--really doesn't capture the extent of the problem. Can you imagine a kid in your family dying of cancer caused by their steroid use.
/////////////////////////////////////
Fine.
Remove all HOF/MLB rules that have to do with "morality."
If a player stays away from capital crimes, he is eligible.
If the HOF is a "life achievement" award, a few bad deeds
should not obviate the good contributions a player made
to baseball.
And, of course, put Pete Rose in, too.
Cobb was a vile individual, but unlike McGwire, his achievements on the baseball field were legit...he was also elected in 1936, when blacks weren't even allowed to play MLB so I doubt his racism was even an issue at that time in the voter's minds...
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
And as for the Hall of Fame, the Rules clearly state that Voting shall be based upon the player's record, playing ability, integrity, sportsmanship, character, and contributions to the team(s) on which the player played.
Break the law? That is as good an indicator that your integrity and character may reasonably be called into question.
/s/ JackWESQ
Maybe not, if the junk was prescribed by licensed drug-pushers.
Some of the guys were so hungover that they needed the "diet pills" to
hit the field on two legs.
Those guys are not excluded. Nor should they be.
...........
Stimulant exemptions in baseball on the rise
By RONALD BLUM, AP Baseball Writer
Jan 9, 2009, 6:32 pm EST
NEW YORK (AP)—Baseball authorized nearly 8 percent of its players to use drugs for ADHD last season, which allowed them to take otherwise banned stimulants.
A total of 106 exemptions for banned drugs were given to major leaguers claiming attention deficit hyperactivity disorder from the end of the 2007 season until the end of the 2008 season, according to a report released Friday by the sport’s independent drug-testing administrator.
That’s up from 103 therapeutic use exemptions (TUEs) for ADHD in 2007, according to figures cited by baseball officials before a congressional committee last year.
“This is incredible. This is quite spectacular. There seems to be an epidemic of ADD in major league baseball,” said Dr. Gary Wadler, chairman of the committee that determines the banned-substances list for the World Anti-Doping Agency.
He recommended an independent panel be established—WADA recommends at least three doctors—to review TUE requests in what he termed “a sport that grew up on greenies.”
“I’ve been in private practice for a lot of years. I can count on one hand the number of individuals that have ADD,” he said. “To say that (7.86 percent) of major league baseball players have attention deficit disorder is crying out of an explanation. It is to me as an internist so off the map of my own experience.”
Rob Manfred, baseball’s executive vice president of labor relations, said it would be a mistake to compare ADHD in baseball with statistics for the general population.’
“We are all male. We are far younger than the general population, and we have far better access to medical care than the general population,” Manfred said.
The National Institute of Mental Health estimates 3 percent to 5 percent of children have ADHD, according to its Web site.
There were 1,348 players subject to testing last season, according to a baseball official who spoke on condition of anonymity because the figure was not in the report. That was down slightly from 1,354 the previous year.
There were a total of 19 positives from 3,486 tests, according to the report.
There were 14 positives for banned stimulants—all first-time offenders, who are not subject to suspension. Five players were suspended for performance-enhancing drugs.
Pitchers J.C. Romero and Sergio Mitre were penalized this week after testing positive for androstenedione, which came from contaminated supplements they purchased over-the-counter. Last season, San Francisco catcher Eliezer Alfonso, Colorado catcher Humberto Cota and Florida pitcher Henry Owens also were penalized.
The drugs that tripped them up were Nandrolone, Stanozolol and testosterone, although it wasn’t announced which player tested positive for what drug.
“Pretty low numbers,” union head Donald Fehr said of the five major league suspensions.
Rep. Henry Waxman, who chaired hearings into drug use in baseball, said he remained concerned about the large number of exemptions.
“But overall, I am pleased with the steps taken by MLB and the players’ union to strengthen their drug testing program and eliminate the use of steroids and other performance-enhancing drugs,” he added.
Rep. John Tierney, who brought up the issue last year, was not available for comment.
Just eight TUEs were granted for illnesses other than ADHD: three for hypertension, three for hypogonadism, one for post-concussion syndrome and one for metabolic myopathy. The 114 overall TUEs was up from 111 the previous year.
“All of the prescriptions for stimulants are the result of prescriptions written by doctors, and they also have to be passed on by Dr. Bryan Smith,” Fehr said. “I don’t know what more there is to say about that.”
Starting in 2008, all TUE applications had to be approved by Smith, the program’s independent administrator.
The number of new requests for TUE exemptions for ADHD drugs declined from 72 to 56, according to the baseball official.
Baseball toughened its testing program after the 2007 season following recommendations by former Senate majority leader George Mitchell, who spent 1 1/2 years investigating performance-enhancing drugs in baseball. Smith’s annual report, which was to have been issued by Dec. 1, was one of Mitchell’s recommendations.
Mitchell declined comment, spokesman John Clark Jr. said.
When you remember that a homerun is credited as a hit, versus a long flyball being credited as an out, it's easy to see that a little arm juice that turns 15 warning track outs a year into 15 extra homers* also increases your .239 by 15 hits.
So Sluggo A, not on juice, gets 115 hits in 480 AB for a .239 average. 35 of those hits are taters; 15 are warning track outs. He acts a lot like Kingman or Gorman Thomas.
Sluggo B comes along during the juice era and turns those 15 warning track outs into first row bombs*. He now has 50 HR and 130 hits in those same 480 AB and with a batting average of .271, he is a hero, a HR champ and a candidate for the HOF.
*I understand that not every HR Big Mac hit was a first row; that's not what I'm saying. What I'm saying is that of Sluggo B's 50, 35 were no doubters and 15 were because of juice.
<< <i>Cobb was a vile individual, but unlike McGwire, his achievements on the baseball field were legit...he was also elected in 1936, when blacks weren't even allowed to play MLB so I doubt his racism was even an issue at that time in the voter's minds... >>
Yes, that's a good point but it begs the question: When were McGwire's achievements on the field actually not legit? Baseball didn't even begin to acknowlege steroid use until at least the mid 90's. And I'm not sure (I need some help here), but when did baseball unilaterally ban the substance? If their use coincided in a time when its use was either accepted, tolerated or wasn't "even an issue", why vilify and/or exclude them?
Again, all things evolve; Institutions, laws, lending practices, etc. We change our perspective on issues based on the past and continually try and tweak the rules. These players were, in a sense, a product of the times just as Cobb was.
I have no doubt that many of these guys started because of injuries, but let's not think it was just to help their team win, it was also becuase of the next big cotract and the almighty dollar.
Personally I'm fine with no McGwire, Bonds, Rose, Cobb, Cepeda, etc.... never getting into the HOF for all kinds of reasons. It should be the best of the best both on and off the field IMO.
Baseball's turning a blind eye to what was going on allowed these guys a platform to look like heros. Teenagers model their behavior after these guys and use of steroids among high school atheletes increased more than tenfold during the 90s as baseaball put these guys on a pedistal. All you had to do is look at the forearms of any position player on the A's to know they were on 'roids. Even their 2nd basemen looked like Popeye!
People in the A's organization now acknowledge that they realized they had a conspicuous problem once Jose Canceco fell head-over heels fielding a ground ball in the outfield due to his upper body mass.
<< <i>STEROIDS KILL!
Baseball's turning a blind eye to what was going on allowed these guys a platform to look like heros. Teenagers model their behavior after these guys and use of steroids among high school atheletes increased more than tenfold during the 90s as baseaball put these guys on a pedistal. All you had to do is look at the forearms of any position player on the A's to know they were on 'roids. Even their 2nd basemen looked like Popeye!
People in the A's organization now acknowledge that they realized they had a conspicuous problem once Jose Canceco fell head-over heels fielding a ground ball in the outfield due to his upper body mass. >>
Yep...Walt Weiss was a MONSTER!
2 out of 6 aint bad