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Mark McGwire you can't hide anymore!!
summerof68
Posts: 748 ✭
Ever since Mark McGwire's cowardly performance in front of Congress he has chosen to go hide under a rock somewhere and vanish from sight. Well with the new revelations out yesterday that his brother has admitted personally injecting Mark with steriods beginning in 1994 it shows that at least someone in the McGwire family has a "sac". Maybe now "Big Mac" will grow up and find his own "sac" and personally apologize to the Maris family for STEALING Roger's record. One thing is now clear--"Cheater Mac" won't be able to hide out at the Hall-of-Fame.
"You tell 'em I'm coming...and hell's coming with me"--Wyatt Earp
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<< <i>Maybe now "Big Mac" will grow up and find his own "sac" >>
If he was on steroids for a really extended period of time, that would be hard to do
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Chris
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<< <i>personally apologize to the Maris family for STEALING Roger's record. >>
Im no McGwire apologist, but if your going to ask McGwire to apologize for "Stealing" Roger Maris HR record, then ask Barry Bonds to as well, as if it wasnt McGwire that broke the record, it would have been Bonds a couple years later.
Not to mention, I dont think anyone needed to hear from Mark McGwires estranged brother that McGwire was taking steroids. He pretty much admitted to taking roids in front of Congress years ago. Chances are that McGwire will never enter the HOF. His support went down this year in voting in relation to the year prior. He's chose to go into hiding and keep himself out of th public eye, and that only further hurts his chances of HOF election. Frankly, he acts like he could care less if he gets in anyway.
I think we are all tired of hearing about the streoid ERA.
Edit: SP
I can't imagine how many fans came back to the game and how many new fans began to watch during that year.
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Also, like cwazy touched on, McGwire and Sosa really brought excitement and fans back to baseball after the post strike years with their big home run chases. I too was a lifetime baseball fan who really didn't follow baseball as much as I did before the strike. I don't know what the answer is, but it should make the pre-steriod and post steriod era records that much more special.
brian
//////////////////////////
There is HUGE merit in that often made observation.
"Molon Labe"
Steroids brought him back into the game, they aided in muscle production, Andro kept him there.
The homerun chase brought me back, but then I felt betrayed.
It was a short term fix and MLB is dead to me now.
All the old magic homerun numbers I knew when I was a kid really have no meaning anymore.
This year when they announced the MVP candidates on the radio,
I was scratching my head because I'd never even heard of any of them.
Bonds and McGuire are garbage for ruining the sport, and they did it because they were greedy ...
"How about a little fire Scarecrow ?"
Maris' 61 dingers was an amazing accomplishment. Without the roids it's now a 47 year old record.
Ruth's 60 is even more incredible. Quote "Babe Ruth set the original single season mark with sixty home runs which was more than any other American League team had combined." That would be like someone hitting 200 home runs today.
"Molon Labe"
I was scratching my head because I'd never even heard of any of them"
you hadn't heard of Pujols, Berkman, Pedroia, Manny Ramirez, Sabathia, Howard, Morneau or Youklis?
Robert
WTB: 2001 Leaf Rookies & Stars Longevity: Ryan Jensen #/25
What about Dan McGwire? Is he in the NFL HOF yet?
<< <i>Gaylord Perry admitted throwing spitballs -- cheating -- and he's in the HOF. >>
While both are cheating, there's a difference between throwing a spitter and injecting drugs.
WTB: 2001 Leaf Rookies & Stars Longevity: Ryan Jensen #/25
<< <i>both McLiar and Bonds are ass-clowns unworthy of the Hall of Fame based entirely on their character, not their numbers or on field performance. >>
I agree on Bonds, but have to disagree on McGwire. My personal interactions with him over the years were top notch. Also, he mentors a number of current players. He may be out of the public spotlight right now, but who wouldn't be if they were in his shoes?
As evidenced by a multitude of comments within this thread alone, no matter what he says or does, he will be seen as a scoundrel. He had multiple injuries in 93/94 and was only able to play a handful of games. The drugs he used helped to heal him and get him back to the game. When he was doing this, there was absolutely no rule in baseball disallowing it. By the standards of the game of baseball at the time, he did not cheat. There is the obvious moral question and I would agree that he fails there if he used the drugs for any reason other than to be able to get on the field. If his only reason for using them was to be able to compete, then EVERY player who has to take a shot of cortizone to get on the field is just as guilty. Some may say that cortizone isn't banned. Well, neither were the drugs that McGwire was taking when he took them.
All this ends up being is his estranged brother's lame attempt at a cash-grab. So far his book has been rejected by every publisher he has taken it to. Jay had to have seen an opportunity after Canseco came out and made all that money on his books.
In the end, there is no questioning Mark McGwire's talent. He was one of the most talented hitters in the history of the game.
This is my opinion and my opinion alone...I don't think Mac used steroids with the goal of breaking the home run record...I think it was an added "benefit" when it was all said and done. I think he simply wanted to compete again.
Now, players like Bonds and Clemens...they've always been soured prima donnas since the beginning...steroids or no steroids, it was always about personal acheivement with those two. They were riding successful HOF careers already, and it wasn't good enough.
Mac was a talented hitter who lost his chance because of major injury.
Right, wrong, or in between, I like Mac as a person because of the way he appeared to treat people on and off the field. The other two guys, they've never experienced a moment of humility in their pathetic lives.
<< <i>Who is to say that Creatine or any other "supplement" that players use today wont be banned 5-10 years down the road? >>
While, biologically there is no reason to ban creatine...at this point in sports medicine, it is viewed much like androstenedione was viewed in the '90s...a naturally occurring compound that in larger quantities impoves muscle performance. Granted, andro is hormone building block to pure testosterone steroids, and creatine is just a naturally occurring acid...but 10 years ago the mind set was much different.
sheesh
j
RIP GURU
<< <i>But with respect to McGwire there is one memory that really irritates me and that is when after hitting the record homerun he chose to run around pounding his chest like he was king kong and putting on this grand, narcissitic display while all along he knew he cheated and flat out stole one of the most cherished records in sports. >>
Didn't happen:
Tabe
When I hear that players from the 50's and 60's were more noble for not injecting themselves, I think what a crock of sh*t. If the had steroids available to them they would have used them.
<< <i>
<< <i>Gaylord Perry admitted throwing spitballs -- cheating -- and he's in the HOF. >>
While both are cheating, there's a difference between throwing a spitter and injecting drugs. >>
Ferguson Jenkins:
In late 1980, during a customs search in Toronto, Ontario, Jenkins was found possessing 3.0 grams cocaine, 2.2 grams hashish, and 1.75 grams marijuana. In response, Commissioner Bowie Kuhn suspended him indefinitely. Jenkins missed the rest of the 1980 season, but in an unprecedented action, an independent arbiter reinstated him and he returned to the game, playing until his retirement following the 1983 season. It has been suggested that this incident delayed his induction into the Baseball Hall of Fame.
That didn't stop him from getting into the Hall. Granted, it didn't help his baseball play, but drugs are drugs. If he's in there, McGwire, Bonds, Palmeiro, and Rose should all be in.
I actually did not mind the steroid era for its entertainment value. Yeah the guys got jacked, but they still had to hit the ball out of the park. All in all the "benefit" of steroids are far overrated in actual on field performance. There were a ton of guys in the Mitchell report who were flat out Scrubs before and after taking the roids. The biggest impact was seen only when the best of the best took the drugs and further separated themselves from the pack. It still is and will always be impossible to be a statisitical correalation on taking steroids.
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But to act as if the steroid-induced homerun race and its resulting effect on people's interest in MLB is a reason to consider giving a cheater a pass, that's a ludicrous gap in ethics at the very least. So as long as disinterested people became interested again, it doesn't matter how they got that way?!? What other sorts of cheating would you have forgiven in the name of peaking interest?? Do the ends justify the means in all cases, or just in this one?
And I love when people attack the whistle blowers. Hilarious to watch people shout "he's just trying to make money" as an argument against a person's credibility. By that logic, you should distrust any news organization that utilizes advertising. Please don't speak as if an attempt to generate a profit must be accompanied by some amount of evil or deception. It's just a ridiculous position to take.
Look, Jay Mcgwire and Jose Canseco either witnessed all of that steroid use or they didn't. You'll probably never know for sure. What we do know is that whether those guys make zero dollars or billions of dollars by telling people about, the facts about what happened will not change. Feel free to speculate, but if you feel compelled to judge their credibility because of the news reports tidbits that get you all fired up, that says a lot more about you than it does about the people you are evaluating.
If you really want to be able to compare baseball statistics, then make the dimensions of every field the same (including the amount of foul ground). And while we're at it, let's standardize the playing surface too. Moreover, let's make every ballpark an indoor facility so temperature, wind, and humidity are the same for every game.
Heck, let's not allow infield or outfield "defensive shifts" either -- that creates unequal gaps -- and we want "standardized" gaps for statistical comparisons. While we're at it, let's just replace the fielders and the pitchers with standardized robots. Heck, better replace the umpires too.
Get real guys. We know who the best hitters are, who the best pitchers are, who the best fielders are -- all we need to do is observe them playing over 15 to 20 years. After 15 or 20 years of observation (and every possible statistic known to mankind), we know who the best players were compared to their peers. And that's the only comparison that's really valid (given that "the game" changes from dead-ball era, to no-blacks-allowed era, to pill-poppers era, to steroid era, to international-players era, ...).
Nothing like a book deal to bring out that brotherly love. I don't need a
<< <i>I knew that when I posted this thread there would of course be those who would still defend or justify McGwire's steriod use. But unlike most of the steroid users McGwire was given the opportunity to step up to the plate in what would be the most important (at bat) in his life when he was questioned by congress in front of the nation. Here he could of came clean before the nation and told all of this country's young that steriods was not the way to go. Instead he chose to protect his legacy and admittance to the Hall of Fame. So in the biggest at bat of his life he struck out looking--looking like a fool!!! >>
Seriously man, you need to move on. Not sure what you are trying to prove. We all know he was guilty, just like we all knew this guy was guility....
<< <i>Jose Canseco- STILL AN ASS! >>
True, but there seems to be more truth in his book than anyone is willing to admit. Not a Canseco fan, but he certainly is costing a few people a trip to Cooperstown. Heard him on Howard Stern. When he went off the roids his testosterone dropped so significantly that a certain part of his body was like "a limp Gummy Worm." To quote his girlfriend.
He's fighting Danny Bonaduce...something worse than letting a fly ball bounce off your head for a homer????
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
Kong was the man! And their BA were quite close most seasons, too, LOL!
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
There is an inconsistency.
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<< <i>Dr. J asked me what am I trying to prove and suggested I need to "move on". Well my response is I'm trying to show that baseball is a microcosm of our American society. Most of the current ills of our present day society (as well as the steroid era) can be traced to a LACK OF ETHICS. Whether it was the loan officer who purposely lied on the loan application to secure a fee; or the CFO of a major corporation who faked the numbers to pad his dividends; or a CEO who stole hard working people's money by cheating the books; or a mayor from Detroit or a governor from Illinois who would tarnish their state's image for financial gain; or a governor from New York who vigorously prosecuted prostitution while at the same time soliciting prostitutes himself; or a nationwide epidemic of college students cheating on exams with regularity. This thread wasn't just about baseball...it is an indictment of today's society and the lack of integrity and personal pride that is more pervasive now than ever before in the history of this country. It's time we expose some of these percieved leaders and heros for the "frauds" they are. And thank goodness the tide appears to be turning as more and more political and business leaders are being brought down. Lets celebrate the real sports heros like Pat Tilman who passed on millions of dollars to risk and give his life in battle. Lets celebrate the patriotism of Bob Feller who while driving cross country to sign a new contract suddenly made a U-turn when he heard Pearl Harbor was bombed and immediately drove home to enlist in the war. These are examples of heros and great Americans who were raised to have INTEGRITY--unlike McGwire, Bonds, Clemens and all the other big political and business leaders who are finally being taken down. Only when this country is well on its way to being cleaned up and integrity is restored as the norm instead of the exception; that is when I can move on.... >>
So to sum up what you're saying, this thread didn't belong on the Sports Cards & Memorabilia Forum.
<< <i> Mark McGwire is Dave Kingman on steroids.
Kong was the man! And their BA were quite close most seasons, too, LOL! >>
Kingman was a career .236 hitter. McGwire hit .263. Most seasons, McGwire was in the .275 - .285 range, hitting .300 twice, and .299 once. His career average is dragged down his awful 1991 and 2001 seasons. Other than that, he had very respectable batting averages.
Oh, and McGwire could actually play defense.
Tabe
McGwire's career average was .263 in an era when hitters (due to expansion, "performace enhancing" drugs, er, I mean "supplements," and bandbox ballparks) had a much easier time than pitchers. Kingman played his entire career during an era when pitchers were much more dominant. If Kingman had come up in 1987, he'd have hit .260 for his career, too, and possibly 550 home runs. And he wouldn't have had to pump his body with steroids to do it, either. I'm not saying that Kingman was as good a player as McGwire, but since McGwire cheated how can anyone even know how good he'd have been without the drugs?
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
<< <i>And he wouldn't have had to pump his body with steroids to do it, either. >>
So you're saying that if Dave Kingman came up in 1987, he wouldn't have suffered the same injuries that Mark McGwire did that made his body deteriorate to the point where he couldn't play the game at all?
I'd like to hear your thoughts about a player that takes a cortisone shot when they're injured in order to get back on the field.
Another example of this would be the use of stimulants, such as amphetamines or cocaine. Anyone here who has ever used cocaine probably knows that it allows you to focus very intently for very short periods of time; something which could prove very beneficial when you're, say, in the batter's box. Now, we'll never know how many players in the '70's were hopped up on blow, but I think a reasonable guess would be 'quite a few'. Ditto for amphetamines, which apparently were so ubiquitous in MLB clubhouses 20-30 years ago that they got their own nickname ('greenies').
I think it's OK to keep McGwire out of the HOF. It's an utterly fraudulent institution to begin with, and more of popularity contest than anything else, so I don't have a problem with excluding him. But I think we should draw the line at considering him a 'bad guy', or someone who 'crossed the line', when probably 90% of the US population would have done the exact same thing that he did if they were in his spot.
In sum: If most, or at least many, people would done the same thing that McGwire did in his situation, then it's silly to blame the player. Instead, place the blame on the circumstances that lead to him making the decision in the first place. The insanity does not lie in the fact that McGwire shot steriods; the insanity lies in the fact that he was paid millions upon millions of dollars to do so.