<< <i>If Cameron was trying to perpetuate some kind of grand scam, why would he have refunded anyone? I have no doubt he will be vindicated here. >>
The whole issue was not that he might be stealing someones money but rather that once he realized he sold coins 10-15K below market that he quickly came up with a 'lost in the mail excuse' and refunded money. >>
Which is total speculation based upon someones twisted paranoid thoughts and totally out of character for what Cameron is. Those of us that know Cameron, know that this is totally untrue and to even suggest this scenario simply indicates one's own paranoia. >>
so stealing a picture is in character? not providing a customer a tracking number when they ask is in character?
All one had to do was show proof of shipping, tell the customer it somehow got lost or stolen, refund the money, and move on. Buying a set in the after market to satisfy a customer's demands is silly in my mind if the other conditions were met above.
I shipped the sets priority mail insured... I believe it is someone at my local post office and will be contacting the denver police and postal inspectors, not just turn in the claims at the local post office.
...
I will not be posting insurance info since there will be an ongoing USPS investigation.
Now, I don't work for the post office, but I'm pretty sure that an investigation for lost packages would include contacting the intended recipients to confirm whether or not the packages were actually received. Maybe the buyers could wait to see if this happens before the lynching commences?
For the record, I don't know kieferscoins and have never had any dealings with him. I have, on the other hand, had dealings with the post office over lost items, and I am here to tell you they don't always resolve issues quickly. If there's anything that describes the post office, it's that the people who work there often march to the tune of a different drummer.
<< <i>If Cameron was trying to perpetuate some kind of grand scam, why would he have refunded anyone? I have no doubt he will be vindicated here. >>
<< <i>The whole issue was not that he might be stealing someones money but rather that once he realized he sold coins 10-15K below market that he quickly came up with a 'lost in the mail excuse' and refunded money. >>
<< <i>Which is total speculation based upon someones twisted paranoid thoughts and totally out of character for what Cameron is. Those of us that know Cameron, know that this is totally untrue and to even suggest this scenario simply indicates one's own paranoia. >>
<< <i>so stealing a picture is in character? not providing a customer a tracking number when they ask is in character?
All one had to do was show proof of shipping, tell the customer it somehow got lost or stolen, refund the money, and move on. Buying a set in the after market to satisfy a customer's demands is silly in my mind if the other conditions were met above. >>
I have spoken with Cameron about this and he does have his reason's. As for the tracking number's, when asked, Cameron willfully provided the insurance tag number: (I asked for a tracking or delivery confirmation number, but he said he only had the number from the insurance tag.) For those that scream for him to provide track numbers I say baloney. Online tracking is a joke at the very minimum in most cases and as for "proof" of mailing, I'll accept his word as proof. I need nothing more.
As for "stealing" photographs? Gimme a break, these are common platinum proof sets. One picture looks exactly like the next one! It's not like each set is a different unique item!
Is using the US Mints photo's in anyway different?
If the picture had been of a certified coin with the cert number etched out, it would be a different story as the representation could be totally misleading but these proof sets are all the same. Please tell me you can provide proper accreditation for every photo on your system?
Besides, he apologized to the photo owner and then inadvertantly used it again. I've made mistakes like this when posting auctions myself as I'm sure all of you have. Really BIG mistakes BTW which once the BIN button has been hit, you simply cannot change them! Once a bid has been placed, you just cannot change an auction.
Again I do not question his ethics, integrity or character. I think he just got bit in the a$$ when the packages got lost/delayed/misplaced/appropriated. Choose your word since this fact has NOT been established just yet it has not even been 30 days and the USPS requires a specific "wait period" before it considers mail lost. Damaged mail is different than lost mail.
All the true bastages would "love" to bring a respected forum member down and pound their chests in mock victory over their internet prowess when in reality, everything that has occured has been up front and readily available to anyone that can use the eBay search tool on Cameron's userid!
A true lynch mod mentality at its finest.
I decided to change calling the bathroom the John and renamed it the Jim. I feel so much better saying I went to the Jim this morning.
"I shipped the sets priority mail insured... I believe it is someone at my local post office and will be contacting the denver police and postal inspectors, not just turn in the claims at the local post office".
...
"I will not be posting insurance info since there will be an ongoing USPS investigation".
The statements above speak to a persons integrity. This statement was made AFTER being called on it. So if the sets where sent then the above statement holds water. However if the above statement was said in order of "damage control" it speaks louder to ones intregrity or in this case the possible lack of. For those who have turn a blind eye to this type of behavior based on ones previous dealings or opinion of this individual nothing has changed. I dont see where any of you can fault someone [even if they are not directly involved in this specific case] for questioning or not wanting to deal with this person. I happen to feel any buyer on ebay for one of these sets [that has not received it under the terms stated] that left a NEG is justified and is doing what the he/she should do. Refunding the money does not make a "good seller"'. A seller who dont deliver is a BAD seller regardless of the reason [short of proving it was sent and lost in transit]. BTW these where not listed as pre-sale items. A persons feeback there [ebay or other] should be considered when deciding to do business with that same person here. This issue ONLY caused and effected by this individual [if the sets where NOT shipped] is a statement to his character. This person wants to be a part of and to sell to this community then he should do WHATEVER it take to do so. My many years in bussiness and sales tells me there is no other way to repair what has apparently been perpetrated. For those who wish to just "excuse or ignore" this type of behavior, well lets just say thats why our conrtry is in the mess we are. I remember being told something growing up and again in business management. Following these words made me a successful person in business and personal life [not necessarily wealthy in $$] "DO what you say you are going to do". JMHO
"I'm done with this thread. I appreciate support from some and don't understand why people have to second guess "why" I bought a set, why I don't do this and that".
Cameron Kiefer
This statement just confirms that one lacks what it takes to right a wrong [the wrong being TRUST] and is still in denial. Very common signs and Very sad.
This thread was started simply asking the question if CK's eBay account been hijacked and for no other reason. Other posters quickly added facts changing it's direction.
<< <i>This thread was started simply asking the question if CK's eBay account been hijacked and for no other reason. Other posters quickly added facts changing it's direction. >>
facts
Agreed. And some of those "facts" where provided by the person in question!
One cannot build a reputation upon the accolades of a forum and then claim that said forum has no right to judge one's actions
This, I agree with. As far as Cameron, I still think that it's a wait & see. If there is an ongoing Postal Investigation, I would think it wise not to provide any specifics to the general public until it got resolved. It may become a legal matter at some point, so why leave yourself vulnerable to counterclaims or other unwanted actions?
Nobody's said how much the packages were insured for. If they were underinsured and then lost, it looks pretty dumb. However, sometimes I underinsure a package intentionally because I know that if it's lost, it will get investigated regardless. All USPS Insured packages require a signature.
By now, it has to be clear what's happened to some degree, although USPS claims cannot be filed for at least 30 days - to give time for the investigation to come to a conclusion. In reality, it's pretty simple - no signature, then the USPS is responsible. And if that's the case, then the explanation of someone in the local office being culpable is quite possible.
It seems odd that only the 4-coin 2008-W Proof Sets were the only packages to turn up missing, but it could be that those packages are identifiable as known high value targets. In fact, my own Fedex driver asked me what was in those packages just a few weeks ago. (I declined to discuss it).
There's still some things I don't understand about what's transpired, and even though it's absolutely none of my damned business, I feel affected. Cameron has alot of defenders here, and there must be some good reasons for having that good reputation. At this point, I'm pretty neutral about what's happened but it seems only fair to wait things out before jumping to conclusions.
I still question how these sets could be so underpriced, sold in a bunch of B-I-N's and then all of them lost in the mail. Nobody owes me any explanation, but that doesn't mean I can't be interested in the outcome here.
Added: The pricing history of the 2004-W Proof Plats reached a peak of $8,000 to $8,500 for raw sets a couple of years ago when they were the acknowledged Kings of the series. Although things have changed in the market since then, it is worth mentioning that the 2008-W Proof Plats will now stand as the Kings in a discontinued series (of fractionals, anyway) and that realization was becoming clear at the time of this unfortunate turn of events. I won't be selling my sets for $5,500 even if I had an offer in-hand, and I'm not so sure that I'd sell them for $8,000 either. Why would I? They are the new Kings, well except for the 2006-W and 2008-W Uncs.
Q: Are You Printing Money? Bernanke: Not Literally
Boy. Just finished start to end of thread. Brought back memories.
My first shop opened in Oct 1979
Then all the GLORIOUS profit like I'd never seen before in my LIFE.
Then Jan 18, 1980 (I could be off a few days)
Silver crashes.
I get a call from my wholesaler and advise the LINE of customers that the fellow AT the counter will be the LAST to receive 22 times face value and tell the rest what happened and advise them to either wait, take 17x, or try another place. All stayed.
But then.....
One of the largest if not THE LARGEST wholesale dealers sends BACK his shipment of circ Morgans I sent him. CONFIRMED AT HIS BUY PRICE. I send him a TT msg and ask what's wrong and he says, "No prob with grade, just not what I looking for."
Which I SAVED for years to show what happens to dlrs faced with a contest between honor and loss.
THEN.... I see the TT msg come over that all of XXXXX's CHECKS are coming back NSF.
Gee, I only had 19k out to him in silver. And ONLY by calling his bank DAILY, did I squeak MY payment from his account 12 MINUTES before the account was closed.
And MORE!
The market is going to hell. So will many dealers.
It's expected.
It's COINS!
Whatever comes of this particular incident will just be one of MANY resulting from the current market turmoil.
And GEE! Whats that item just below that last neg? Could it be........well I think it might be................Yes...........why, its a high dollar Gold Buffalo! Definitely out of character!
I decided to change calling the bathroom the John and renamed it the Jim. I feel so much better saying I went to the Jim this morning.
I posted about another seller that was selling same coins,same pictures,over and over in another thread. My money refunded. That seller negs.now up to 12 this month ,they went PRIVATE on feedback,and now removed all stuff for sale. They had alot of feedback for cheap stuff and alot of refunds and negs. for high value things...........
And GEE! Whats that item just below that last neg? Could it be........well I think it might be................Yes...........why, its a high dollar Gold Buffalo! Definitely out of character! >>
Yeah Lyds, but isn't it funny how the one sold later after the price bumped up by over $200 was the 1 that got lost? Seems like the smoke is turning into flames.....
buying Rhode Island Nationals please email, PM or call 401-295-3000
As a seller, I would think there is a big problem if I sold something and couldn't deliver and had to refund the money, especially after the market price went up. I go to extremes not to disappoint my customers because I expect that if I do, they will neg me. --Jerry
looks like he needed fast cash to me. He sells low priced widgets 99 percent of the time, then pops up 2000 plus dollar items and they all get lost LOL.
Mark NGC registry V-Nickel proof #6!!!! working on proof shield nickels # 8 with a bullet!!!!
And GEE! Whats that item just below that last neg? Could it be........well I think it might be................Yes...........why, its a high dollar Gold Buffalo! Definitely out of character! >>
I wouldn't make too much about that "high dollar Gold Buffalo" positive feedback. It says nothing about buyer receiving coin just that seller tried to make him happy. Sounds more like another non delivery and a quick refund. Oh wait...............Could it be..........Yes.........why it is another under market priced high dollar item that may or may not have been delivered.
You watch. They will catch this mail-stealing scumbag soon and a news article will be posted about it in this thread. Then what, why a formal "Apologies to Cameron" thread will be started by COINB0Y of course.
Selling the 2008-W 1 oz gold buffalo proof for under $1000? That makes no sense at all. That's way below the going rate of $1500 to $1600. Something smells bad.
As much as I have given Cameron the benefit of the doubt from 'go', it's hard to believe ALL these high priced sets are the ONLY things getting 'lifted' from the P.O. I understand all those who also give him the benefit, but his staunchness in not replying publicly to stick it up all the doubters a$$es just makes it look bad for him. I just hope the cop thing works out for him....I think his 'dealer' sun has set almost as quickly as it began. Rather ironic after all this that he is interested in 'the law'. Don't take it the wrong way...remember, I have given him the benefit of the doubt, but his lack of involvement to 'right the ship' wreaks (where he was SO active prior to his becoming a grader at ICG, and DID add to the boards when he could, and now he refuses to participate). If it were me, I'd want to end this ASAP and save face....IF things were as he stated, with them getting 'lifted' from the PO.
Unless he does something, each day that goes by without an attempt to save face makes it look worse. I think anyone in his position would want to stop the bleeding before he bleeds out.
All I could think of when reading this thread is what a bunch of "washerwomen".
Advanced collector of BREWERIANA. Early beer advertising (beer cans, tap knobs, foam scrapers, trays, tin signs, lithos, paper, etc)....My first love...U.S. COINS!
All I could think of when reading this thread is what a bunch of "washerwomen".
Would you like starch in your shirt, sir? Or simply our special "whitewash"?
Selling the 2008-W 1 oz gold buffalo proof for under $1000? That makes no sense at all. That's way below the going rate of $1500 to $1600. Something smells bad.
The profit from selling 100 items in the $20.00 range will allow a dealer to offer great deals on the Proof Gold Buffs, and 2008-W Proof Plat 4-coin sets for $300 over melt when they are worth $900 more. That's a business model that I have trouble grasping.
If something doesn't seem right, then we're not allowed to question why, without being called a "washerwoman"? Questioning something that doesn't pass the rationality test doesn't make it a lynch mob. I guess you can't question ebay with their impeccable ethics, either?
Q: Are You Printing Money? Bernanke: Not Literally
<< <i>You watch. They will catch this mail-stealing scumbag soon and a news article will be posted about it in this thread. Then what, why a formal "Apologies to Cameron" thread will be started by COINB0Y of course. >>
Ya, too bad it got lost, and it was a Presale....FYI: Item may take a few days to ship since I have to get it from my supplier.
Let me guess, on Halloween you're in a field waiting for the Great Pumpkin.
U.S. Registered Mail is the only way to ship something worth more than $500, because everyone who handles a "Red" enroute signs for it, and "Reds" are transported slower, by safer routes, and in locked mailbags. The serially-numbered lock has a rotary dial number which changes each time the lock is opened. Attached to it is a tag with the dial number recorded, and before the lock is unlocked, the number on the tag is checked against the number on the lock. It is thus impossible to secretly open the bag between one mail sorting facility and the next.
Because of these security measures, the loss rate is close to zero, and that is why the USPS insurance rate per $100 for Registered Mail decreases as the value increases, so that an expensive coin winds up costing less to ship than ordinary Insured Mail (which travels right along with everything else). Anyone shipping a $1000+ coin who claims that it was "lost" has no one to blame but himself, because they actually spent more money for less security.
And anyone who blames a loss on the Postal Service needs to prove that claim to the USPS, with the receipt they were handed by the clerk. Without such proof, no claim for reimbursement is possible. I was a former USPS Manager and Postmaster for twelve years, that's how I know all the above.
As to the mystery here, there should be none. Showing a copy of a receipt (with the addressee's name blacked out) ought not to be a problem, and saying otherwise is ludicruous, IMHO.
Good deals with: goldman86 mkman123 Wingsrule wondercoin segoja Tccuga OKCC LindeDad and others.
<< <i>U.S. Registered Mail is the only way to ship something worth more than $500, because everyone who handles a "Red" enroute signs for it, and "Reds" are transported slower, by safer routes, and in locked mailbags. The serially-numbered lock has a rotary dial number which changes each time the lock is opened. Attached to it is a tag with the dial number recorded, and before the lock is unlocked, the number on the tag is checked against the number on the lock. It is thus impossible to secretly open the bag between one mail sorting facility and the next.
Because of these security measures, the loss rate is close to zero, and that is why the USPS insurance rate per $100 for Registered Mail decreases as the value increases, so that an expensive coin winds up costing less to ship than ordinary Insured Mail (which travels right along with everything else). Anyone shipping a $1000+ coin who claims that it was "lost" has no one to blame but himself, because they actually spent more money for less security.
And anyone who blames a loss on the Postal Service needs to prove that claim to the USPS, with the receipt they were handed by the clerk. Without such proof, no claim for reimbursement is possible. I was a former USPS Manager and Postmaster for twelve years, that's how I know all the above.
If you go back to page 13 in this thread a buyer reported he had asked for proof of shipment and he was refused.
Not to imply anything but all this receit of money and later refunds reminds me of check kiting.
As to the mystery here, there should be none. Showing a copy of a receipt (with the addressee's name blacked out) ought not to be a problem, and saying otherwise is ludicruous, IMHO. >>
<< <i>You watch. They will catch this mail-stealing scumbag soon and a news article will be posted about it in this thread. Then what, why a formal "Apologies to Cameron" thread will be started by COINB0Y of course. >>
Is this sarcasm?
You are kidding right? Have you ever had anything stolen from the US mail?
You are kidding right? Have you ever had anything stolen from the US mail? >>
Of course I'm not kidding! I believe there will be quite a few folks eating crow after the truth comes out.
First of all, Cameron is just not the type of person that would pull something like this. I mean, look at his face in his ebay about me page alongside his cute young daughter. Is this a face of a two-bid sliming scammer? Also, the fact that he is aspiring to be a cop and has been deemed sherrif sample slab on these forums? The fact that he has been a high contributer and even taught grading standards at the ANA? C'mon now, the guy's so squeaky-clean he probably never even had a drink in his life, and you want me to believe he all of a sudden turns into this evil mail-insurance-scamming coin crook?!
Second of all, why would he, with the entire PCGS community it seems crucifying him at this time, even attempt to repeat the same thing that he is being accused of with these gold coins as was done with the plat sets?
No the more I see come to light, the more I believe he has been telling the truth all along.... that someone is ripping off his high-priced material, probably someone working in a PO local to him.
"We ship about 2 to 3 thousand packages per month and lose 3 or 4 a year. John"
So, 24,000 - 36,000 packages per year results in 3-4 lost per year, or about 1 out of every 10,000 packages lost. So, the odds of losing roughly 5 in a month??? Any math professors out there??
Wondercoin
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
<< <i>"We ship about 2 to 3 thousand packages per month and lose 3 or 4 a year. John"
So, 24,000 - 36,000 packages per year results in 3-4 lost per year, or about 1 out of every 10,000 packages lost. So, the odds of losing roughly 5 in a month??? Any math professors out there??
Wondercoin >>
This is true... and I will say that the losses are never registered (we've lost maybe one or two in the entire time I've been in the business) however, I am pretty sure Cameron has admitted one of the mistakes he made was not sending them registered.
John
John Maben
Pegasus Coin and Jewelry (Brick and Mortar)
ANA LM, PNG, APMD, FUN, Etc
800-381-2646
1/10,000 lost per year means in a given month the odds would be 1/120,000. 5 in a month - 1/600,000?? Or, would you multipy 1/120,000 to the 5th power instead? Math wizards??
Wondercoin
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
1/10,000 lost per year means in a given month the odds would be 1/120,000. 5 in a month - 1/600,000?? Or, would you multipy 1/120,000 to the 5th power instead? Math wizards??
Wondercoin >>
I flunked Algebra 1.
John Maben
Pegasus Coin and Jewelry (Brick and Mortar)
ANA LM, PNG, APMD, FUN, Etc
800-381-2646
1/10,000 lost per year means in a given month the odds would be 1/120,000. 5 in a month - 1/600,000?? Or, would you multipy 1/120,000 to the 5th power instead?
Only if you were betting on 5 successive high value lost packages in a row? The Proof 1 ozer Buff at $980 (which was received) would ruin this permutation, I think.
However, it doesn't explain why anyone would be selling a Proof 1 ozer Buff for $980.00.
Q: Are You Printing Money? Bernanke: Not Literally
For those who assert that the post office couldn't "lose" this many high dollar packages: Perhaps you've forgotten all the registered mail packages that were stolen in Newport Beach a few years ago. As a practical matter, the USPS does do an excellent job and package loss is rare. But the post office, like any other organization, has some less then honest people in its employ.
1/10,000 lost per year means in a given month the odds would be 1/120,000. 5 in a month - 1/600,000?? Or, would you multipy 1/120,000 to the 5th power instead? Math wizards?? >>
I'm not a mathematician, but I don't believe it would be valid to take the rate of loss based on shipping from one location and expect it to apply to all locations. Suppose, just for example, there is a crook at post office "A" but not at post office "B". The odds of a loss are not going to be the same for customers of post office "A" vs. those of post office "B".
I think you are probably correct that the statistics are based upon John's Post Office only and that every Post Office's results would vary. Of course, we have no idea if John's Post Office is above the national average or below the national average for lost packages. Also, I think jmski52 may be correct that you would only incorporate the use of "powers" when the odds were being calculated on successive lost packages.
Me, personally, I may have lost a package maybe one or two over the past 10 years of shipping from my post office. I believe the number is 0 for registered mail shipments from my post office though. There was a coin dealer that used my post office to ship his packages for 25 years who I ran into one day. He told me that in 25 years of shipping, he had never lost a registered mail package addressed within the US. He mentioned a single lost package in 25 years of shipping which he shipped out of the country (not sure if that was registered or not). The Post Office does a pretty good job, and I believe Russ is also correct that the rare losses are often contained to a single location and fraud. By the way, do we know the exact location of the Post office being used here for which a potential fraud is possible? I would like to flag that location myself. Wondercoin
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
1/10,000 lost per year means in a given month the odds would be 1/120,000. 5 in a month - 1/600,000?? Or, would you multipy 1/120,000 to the 5th power instead? Math wizards??
Wondercoin >>
Yes, to the fifth power would be correct. So if 1 package in 10,000 goes missing each year then the odds are 1 out of 100,000,000,000,000,000,000, that you lose 5 packages in one year. Add the permutation that only expensive items are taken and I think my calculator will explode.
It's absurd refusing to reveal tracking numbers. Below is a link to the USPS tracking site. Last week I shipped tracking number 01038555749529918791, enter this number and see what's revealed. In essence nothing except the shipping, receiving dates, both sending and receiving zips plus the zips it past through.
<< <i>.......... I just have never had any problems with the US mail. >>
Have you ever been mugged, or been in an airplane crash, had your car stolen? Ever have a paycheck bounce?
I've never been mugged but I know it happens.
I've never been in an airplane crash, but I know it happens.
I've never had a car stolen, but I know it happens.
I've never had a paycheck bounce, but I know it happens.
I've never had an item lost in the mail,
But I know it happens. I also know that once someone targets your mail for theft, that it can happen with some frequency until the culprit is caught!
I also know that the Post Office requires at least a 30 day waiting period before it will investigate lost mail simply because mail doea get misplaced and could turn up. 30 days is a reasonable period of time.
Every hear of the mail getting delivered 30 years later? I recall reading these "news" stories with some frequency. You always wonder how in the heck this could happen, but the sad reality is that it does happen.
<< <i>I guess the truth (until proven wrong) hurts. >>
Funny, I was always under the impression that it was "innocent until proven guilty" in this country.
Perhaps I got this one wrong and hopefully, I don't get accused of anything where I have to "prove" my innocents to a mob.
A couple of threads have been posted lately stating that nothing of value has been posted on these forums. I guess this one just drives the point home in that Cameron has absolutely no obligation to tell anybody anything with regard to this matter until it gets cleared up with the Post Office.
For those yokels that whine a scream and leave negatives because they couldn't wait for the outcome of the investigation and instead accepted a refund, I hope to never have to deal with you on eBay.
Lost mail takes time to investigate and resolve and folks should understand this. Especially the members on this forum! Remember, these weren't damaged packages or even empty boxes, they are UNDELIVERED and presumed LOST packages. Only time and an investigation by the PO will resolve this issue.
If you want to know why Cameron has not responded to this thread, instead of thowing up accusations, ask him.
I decided to change calling the bathroom the John and renamed it the Jim. I feel so much better saying I went to the Jim this morning.
Comments
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>If Cameron was trying to perpetuate some kind of grand scam, why would he have refunded anyone? I have no doubt he will be vindicated here. >>
The whole issue was not that he might be stealing someones money but rather that once he realized he sold coins 10-15K below market that he quickly came up with a 'lost in the mail excuse' and refunded money. >>
Which is total speculation based upon someones twisted paranoid thoughts and totally out of character for what Cameron is. Those of us that know Cameron, know that this is totally untrue and to even suggest this scenario simply indicates one's own paranoia. >>
so stealing a picture is in character? not providing a customer a tracking
number when they ask is in character?
All one had to do was show proof of shipping, tell the customer it somehow
got lost or stolen, refund the money, and move on. Buying a set in the
after market to satisfy a customer's demands is silly in my mind if
the other conditions were met above.
<< <i>not convicting or dismissing but we all remember Darin5, don't we? >>
The name sounds familiar ...
I shipped the sets priority mail insured... I believe it is someone at my local post office and will be contacting the denver police and postal inspectors, not just turn in the claims at the local post office.
...
I will not be posting insurance info since there will be an ongoing USPS investigation.
Now, I don't work for the post office, but I'm pretty sure that an investigation for lost packages would include contacting the intended recipients to confirm whether or not the packages were actually received. Maybe the buyers could wait to see if this happens before the lynching commences?
For the record, I don't know kieferscoins and have never had any dealings with him. I have, on the other hand, had dealings with the post office over lost items, and I am here to tell you they don't always resolve issues quickly. If there's anything that describes the post office, it's that the people who work there often march to the tune of a different drummer.
<< <i>"my Mocha flavored coffee that I just brewed tastes MUCH better with french vanilla creamer than hazelnut creamer."
The most clear cut and straight out verifiable statement in this thread. Hazelnut is foul. >>
Just get yourself soem hot chocolate and stop pretending to be a coffee drinker.
<< <i>If Cameron was trying to perpetuate some kind of grand scam, why would he have refunded anyone? I have no doubt he will be vindicated here. >>
<< <i>The whole issue was not that he might be stealing someones money but rather that once he realized he sold coins 10-15K below market that he quickly came up with a 'lost in the mail excuse' and refunded money. >>
<< <i>Which is total speculation based upon someones twisted paranoid thoughts and totally out of character for what Cameron is. Those of us that know Cameron, know that this is totally untrue and to even suggest this scenario simply indicates one's own paranoia. >>
<< <i>so stealing a picture is in character? not providing a customer a tracking
number when they ask is in character?
All one had to do was show proof of shipping, tell the customer it somehow
got lost or stolen, refund the money, and move on. Buying a set in the
after market to satisfy a customer's demands is silly in my mind if
the other conditions were met above. >>
I have spoken with Cameron about this and he does have his reason's. As for the tracking number's, when asked, Cameron willfully provided the insurance tag number: (I asked for a tracking or delivery confirmation number, but he said he only had the number from the insurance tag.) For those that scream for him to provide track numbers I say baloney. Online tracking is a joke at the very minimum in most cases and as for "proof" of mailing, I'll accept his word as proof. I need nothing more.
As for "stealing" photographs? Gimme a break, these are common platinum proof sets. One picture looks exactly like the next one! It's not like each set is a different unique item!
Is using the US Mints photo's in anyway different?
If the picture had been of a certified coin with the cert number etched out, it would be a different story as the representation could be totally misleading but these proof sets are all the same. Please tell me you can provide proper accreditation for every photo on your system?
Besides, he apologized to the photo owner and then inadvertantly used it again. I've made mistakes like this when posting auctions myself as I'm sure all of you have. Really BIG mistakes BTW which once the BIN button has been hit, you simply cannot change them! Once a bid has been placed, you just cannot change an auction.
Again I do not question his ethics, integrity or character. I think he just got bit in the a$$ when the packages got lost/delayed/misplaced/appropriated. Choose your word since this fact has NOT been established just yet it has not even been 30 days and the USPS requires a specific "wait period" before it considers mail lost. Damaged mail is different than lost mail.
All the true bastages would "love" to bring a respected forum member down and pound their chests in mock victory over their internet prowess when in reality, everything that has occured has been up front and readily available to anyone that can use the eBay search tool on Cameron's userid!
A true lynch mod mentality at its finest.
The name is LEE!
09/07/2006
"I shipped the sets priority mail insured... I believe it is someone at my local post office and will be contacting the denver police and postal inspectors, not just turn in the claims at the local post office".
...
"I will not be posting insurance info since there will be an ongoing USPS investigation".
The statements above speak to a persons integrity. This statement was made AFTER being called on it. So if the sets where sent then the above statement holds water. However if the above statement was said in order of "damage control" it speaks louder to ones intregrity or in this case the possible lack of. For those who have turn a blind eye to this type of behavior based on ones previous dealings or opinion of this individual nothing has changed. I dont see where any of you can fault someone [even if they are not directly involved in this specific case] for questioning or not wanting to deal with this person. I happen to feel any buyer on ebay for one of these sets [that has not received it under the terms stated] that left a NEG is justified and is doing what the he/she should do. Refunding the money does not make a "good seller"'. A seller who dont deliver is a BAD seller regardless of the reason [short of proving it was sent and lost in transit]. BTW these where not listed as pre-sale items.
A persons feeback there [ebay or other] should be considered when deciding to do business with that same person here. This issue ONLY caused and effected by this individual [if the sets where NOT shipped] is a statement to his character. This person wants to be a part of and to sell to this community then he should do WHATEVER it take to do so. My many years in bussiness and sales tells me there is no other way to repair what has apparently been perpetrated. For those who wish to just "excuse or ignore" this type of behavior, well lets just say thats why our conrtry is in the mess we are. I remember being told something growing up and again in business management. Following these words made me a successful person in business and personal life [not necessarily wealthy in $$] "DO what you say you are going to do". JMHO
"I'm done with this thread. I appreciate support from some and don't understand why people have to second guess "why" I bought a set, why I don't do this and that".
Cameron Kiefer
This statement just confirms that one lacks what it takes to right a wrong [the wrong being TRUST] and is still in denial. Very common signs and Very sad.
<< <i>This thread was started simply asking the question if CK's eBay account been hijacked and for no other reason. Other posters quickly added facts changing it's direction. >>
facts
Agreed. And some of those "facts" where provided by the person in question!
This, I agree with. As far as Cameron, I still think that it's a wait & see. If there is an ongoing Postal Investigation, I would think it wise not to provide any specifics to the general public until it got resolved. It may become a legal matter at some point, so why leave yourself vulnerable to counterclaims or other unwanted actions?
Nobody's said how much the packages were insured for. If they were underinsured and then lost, it looks pretty dumb. However, sometimes I underinsure a package intentionally because I know that if it's lost, it will get investigated regardless. All USPS Insured packages require a signature.
By now, it has to be clear what's happened to some degree, although USPS claims cannot be filed for at least 30 days - to give time for the investigation to come to a conclusion. In reality, it's pretty simple - no signature, then the USPS is responsible. And if that's the case, then the explanation of someone in the local office being culpable is quite possible.
It seems odd that only the 4-coin 2008-W Proof Sets were the only packages to turn up missing, but it could be that those packages are identifiable as known high value targets. In fact, my own Fedex driver asked me what was in those packages just a few weeks ago. (I declined to discuss it).
There's still some things I don't understand about what's transpired, and even though it's absolutely none of my damned business, I feel affected. Cameron has alot of defenders here, and there must be some good reasons for having that good reputation. At this point, I'm pretty neutral about what's happened but it seems only fair to wait things out before jumping to conclusions.
I still question how these sets could be so underpriced, sold in a bunch of B-I-N's and then all of them lost in the mail. Nobody owes me any explanation, but that doesn't mean I can't be interested in the outcome here.
Added: The pricing history of the 2004-W Proof Plats reached a peak of $8,000 to $8,500 for raw sets a couple of years ago when they were the acknowledged Kings of the series. Although things have changed in the market since then, it is worth mentioning that the 2008-W Proof Plats will now stand as the Kings in a discontinued series (of fractionals, anyway) and that realization was becoming clear at the time of this unfortunate turn of events. I won't be selling my sets for $5,500 even if I had an offer in-hand, and I'm not so sure that I'd sell them for $8,000 either. Why would I? They are the new Kings, well except for the 2006-W and 2008-W Uncs.
I knew it would happen.
My first shop opened in Oct 1979
Then all the GLORIOUS profit like I'd never seen before in my LIFE.
Then Jan 18, 1980 (I could be off a few days)
Silver crashes.
I get a call from my wholesaler and advise the LINE of customers that the fellow AT the counter will be the LAST to receive 22 times face value and tell the rest what happened and advise them to either wait, take 17x, or try another place. All stayed.
But then.....
One of the largest if not THE LARGEST wholesale dealers sends BACK his shipment of circ Morgans I sent him. CONFIRMED AT HIS BUY PRICE. I send him a TT msg and ask what's wrong and he says, "No prob with grade, just not what I looking for."
Which I SAVED for years to show what happens to dlrs faced with a contest between honor and loss.
THEN.... I see the TT msg come over that all of XXXXX's CHECKS are coming back NSF.
Gee, I only had 19k out to him in silver. And ONLY by calling his bank DAILY, did I squeak MY payment from his account 12 MINUTES before the account was closed.
And MORE!
The market is going to hell. So will many dealers.
It's expected.
It's COINS!
Whatever comes of this particular incident will just be one of MANY resulting from the current market turmoil.
Promise!
<< <i>
<< <i>not convicting or dismissing but we all remember Darin5, don't we? >>
The name sounds familiar ...
ha ha......I figgered you'd chime in on that one.
One couldn't make this up!
<< <i> "Losing them Again? "??
One couldn't make this up! >>
Looks to me like the money was refunded.
Whats your problem b0y?
And GEE! Whats that item just below that last neg? Could it be........well I think it might be................Yes...........why, its a high dollar Gold Buffalo! Definitely out of character!
The name is LEE!
As foolish as it may seem to some, I'd prefer giving my friend the benefit of the doubt over innuendo's and speculation anyday.
The name is LEE!
Looks to me like the money was refunded.
Whats your problem b0y?
And GEE! Whats that item just below that last neg? Could it be........well I think it might be................Yes...........why, its a high dollar Gold Buffalo! Definitely out of character!
Yeah Lyds, but isn't it funny how the one sold later after the price bumped up by over $200 was the 1 that got lost? Seems like the smoke is turning into flames.....
NGC registry V-Nickel proof #6!!!!
working on proof shield nickels # 8 with a bullet!!!!
RIP "BEAR"
Funny how some fail to see that very pattern...so obvious...*sigh*
<< <i>
<< <i> "Losing them Again? "??
One couldn't make this up! >>
Looks to me like the money was refunded.
Whats your problem b0y?
And GEE! Whats that item just below that last neg? Could it be........well I think it might be................Yes...........why, its a high dollar Gold Buffalo! Definitely out of character!
I wouldn't make too much about that "high dollar Gold Buffalo" positive feedback. It says nothing about buyer receiving coin just that seller tried to make him happy. Sounds more like another non delivery and a quick refund. Oh wait...............Could it be..........Yes.........why it is another under market priced high dollar item that may or may not have been delivered.
Then what, why a formal "Apologies to Cameron" thread will be started by COINB0Y of course.
Unless he does something, each day that goes by without an attempt to save face makes it look worse. I think anyone in his position would want to stop the bleeding before he bleeds out.
Would you like starch in your shirt, sir? Or simply our special "whitewash"?
Selling the 2008-W 1 oz gold buffalo proof for under $1000? That makes no sense at all. That's way below the going rate of $1500 to $1600. Something smells bad.
The profit from selling 100 items in the $20.00 range will allow a dealer to offer great deals on the Proof Gold Buffs, and 2008-W Proof Plat 4-coin sets for $300 over melt when they are worth $900 more. That's a business model that I have trouble grasping.
If something doesn't seem right, then we're not allowed to question why, without being called a "washerwoman"? Questioning something that doesn't pass the rationality test doesn't make it a lynch mob. I guess you can't question ebay with their impeccable ethics, either?
I knew it would happen.
<< <i>You watch. They will catch this mail-stealing scumbag soon and a news article will be posted about it in this thread.
Then what, why a formal "Apologies to Cameron" thread will be started by COINB0Y of course.
Ya, too bad it got lost, and it was a Presale....FYI: Item may take a few days to ship since I have to get it from my supplier.
Let me guess, on Halloween you're in a field waiting for the Great Pumpkin.
Because of these security measures, the loss rate is close to zero, and that is why the USPS insurance rate per $100 for Registered Mail decreases as the value increases, so that an expensive coin winds up costing less to ship than ordinary Insured Mail (which travels right along with everything else). Anyone shipping a $1000+ coin who claims that it was "lost" has no one to blame but himself, because they actually spent more money for less security.
And anyone who blames a loss on the Postal Service needs to prove that claim to the USPS, with the receipt they were handed by the clerk. Without such proof, no claim for reimbursement is possible. I was a former USPS Manager and Postmaster for twelve years, that's how I know all the above.
As to the mystery here, there should be none. Showing a copy of a receipt (with the addressee's name blacked out) ought not to be a problem, and saying otherwise is ludicruous, IMHO.
my early American coins & currency: -- http://yankeedoodlecoins.com/
<< <i>U.S. Registered Mail is the only way to ship something worth more than $500, because everyone who handles a "Red" enroute signs for it, and "Reds" are transported slower, by safer routes, and in locked mailbags. The serially-numbered lock has a rotary dial number which changes each time the lock is opened. Attached to it is a tag with the dial number recorded, and before the lock is unlocked, the number on the tag is checked against the number on the lock. It is thus impossible to secretly open the bag between one mail sorting facility and the next.
Because of these security measures, the loss rate is close to zero, and that is why the USPS insurance rate per $100 for Registered Mail decreases as the value increases, so that an expensive coin winds up costing less to ship than ordinary Insured Mail (which travels right along with everything else). Anyone shipping a $1000+ coin who claims that it was "lost" has no one to blame but himself, because they actually spent more money for less security.
And anyone who blames a loss on the Postal Service needs to prove that claim to the USPS, with the receipt they were handed by the clerk. Without such proof, no claim for reimbursement is possible. I was a former USPS Manager and Postmaster for twelve years, that's how I know all the above.
If you go back to page 13 in this thread a buyer reported he had asked for proof of shipment and he was refused.
Not to imply anything but all this receit of money and later refunds reminds me of check kiting.
As to the mystery here, there should be none. Showing a copy of a receipt (with the addressee's name blacked out) ought not to be a problem, and saying otherwise is ludicruous, IMHO. >>
<< <i>You watch. They will catch this mail-stealing scumbag soon and a news article will be posted about it in this thread.
Then what, why a formal "Apologies to Cameron" thread will be started by COINB0Y of course.
Is this sarcasm?
You are kidding right? Have you ever had anything stolen from the US mail?
<< <i>Is this sarcasm?
You are kidding right? Have you ever had anything stolen from the US mail? >>
Of course I'm not kidding! I believe there will be quite a few folks eating crow after the truth comes out.
First of all, Cameron is just not the type of person that would pull something like this. I mean, look at his face in his ebay about me page alongside his cute young daughter. Is this a face of a two-bid sliming scammer? Also, the fact that he is aspiring to be a cop and has been deemed sherrif sample slab on these forums? The fact that he has been a high contributer and even taught grading standards at the ANA? C'mon now, the guy's so squeaky-clean he probably never even had a drink in his life, and you want me to believe he all of a sudden turns into this evil mail-insurance-scamming coin crook?!
Second of all, why would he, with the entire PCGS community it seems crucifying him at this time, even attempt to repeat the same thing that he is being accused of with these gold coins as was done with the plat sets?
No the more I see come to light, the more I believe he has been telling the truth all along.... that someone is ripping off his high-priced material, probably someone working in a PO local to him.
<< <i>I have no idea if anyone has done anything criminal, I just have never had any problems with the US mail. >>
Then you haven't shipped enough packages. It's rare, but it happens. We ship about 2 to 3 thousand packages per month and lose 3 or 4 a year.
John
John Maben
Pegasus Coin and Jewelry (Brick and Mortar)
ANA LM, PNG, APMD, FUN, Etc
800-381-2646
So, 24,000 - 36,000 packages per year results in 3-4 lost per year, or about 1 out of every 10,000 packages lost. So, the odds of losing roughly 5 in a month??? Any math professors out there??
Wondercoin
<< <i>"We ship about 2 to 3 thousand packages per month and lose 3 or 4 a year. John"
So, 24,000 - 36,000 packages per year results in 3-4 lost per year, or about 1 out of every 10,000 packages lost. So, the odds of losing roughly 5 in a month??? Any math professors out there??
Wondercoin >>
This is true... and I will say that the losses are never registered (we've lost maybe one or two in the entire time I've been in the business) however, I am pretty sure
Cameron has admitted one of the mistakes he made was not sending them registered.
John
John Maben
Pegasus Coin and Jewelry (Brick and Mortar)
ANA LM, PNG, APMD, FUN, Etc
800-381-2646
The other mistake was not sending them at all! Sorry, I've got no dog in this fight, but couldn't resist
Just curious... is this the math?
1/10,000 lost per year means in a given month the odds would be 1/120,000. 5 in a month - 1/600,000?? Or, would you multipy 1/120,000 to the 5th power instead? Math wizards??
Wondercoin
<< <i>John: Agreed on all counts.
Just curious... is this the math?
1/10,000 lost per year means in a given month the odds would be 1/120,000. 5 in a month - 1/600,000?? Or, would you multipy 1/120,000 to the 5th power instead? Math wizards??
Wondercoin >>
I flunked Algebra 1.
John Maben
Pegasus Coin and Jewelry (Brick and Mortar)
ANA LM, PNG, APMD, FUN, Etc
800-381-2646
Only if you were betting on 5 successive high value lost packages in a row? The Proof 1 ozer Buff at $980 (which was received) would ruin this permutation, I think.
However, it doesn't explain why anyone would be selling a Proof 1 ozer Buff for $980.00.
I knew it would happen.
Russ, NCNE
<< <i>Just curious... is this the math?
1/10,000 lost per year means in a given month the odds would be 1/120,000. 5 in a month - 1/600,000?? Or, would you multipy 1/120,000 to the 5th power instead? Math wizards?? >>
I'm not a mathematician, but I don't believe it would be valid to take the rate of loss based on shipping from one location and expect it to apply to all locations. Suppose, just for example, there is a crook at post office "A" but not at post office "B". The odds of a loss are not going to be the same for customers of post office "A" vs. those of post office "B".
<< <i> I am pretty sure Cameron has admitted one of the mistakes he made was not sending them registered.
The other mistake was not sending them at all! Sorry, I've got no dog in this fight, but couldn't resist
Do you know this?
This thread is filled with dirty slander.
Ray
Me, personally, I may have lost a package maybe one or two over the past 10 years of shipping from my post office. I believe the number is 0 for registered mail shipments from my post office though. There was a coin dealer that used my post office to ship his packages for 25 years who I ran into one day. He told me that in 25 years of shipping, he had never lost a registered mail package addressed within the US. He mentioned a single lost package in 25 years of shipping which he shipped out of the country (not sure if that was registered or not). The Post Office does a pretty good job, and I believe Russ is also correct that the rare losses are often contained to a single location and fraud. By the way, do we know the exact location of the Post office being used here for which a potential fraud is possible? I would like to flag that location myself. Wondercoin
<< <i>John: Agreed on all counts.
Just curious... is this the math?
1/10,000 lost per year means in a given month the odds would be 1/120,000. 5 in a month - 1/600,000?? Or, would you multipy 1/120,000 to the 5th power instead? Math wizards??
Wondercoin >>
Yes, to the fifth power would be correct. So if 1 package in 10,000 goes missing each year then the odds are 1 out of 100,000,000,000,000,000,000, that you lose 5 packages in one year. Add the permutation that only expensive items are taken and I think my calculator will explode.
USPS Tracking
<< <i>.......... I just have never had any problems with the US mail. >>
Have you ever been mugged, or been in an airplane crash, had your car stolen? Ever have a paycheck bounce?
I've never been mugged but I know it happens.
I've never been in an airplane crash, but I know it happens.
I've never had a car stolen, but I know it happens.
I've never had a paycheck bounce, but I know it happens.
I've never had an item lost in the mail,
But I know it happens. I also know that once someone targets your mail for theft, that it can happen with some frequency until the culprit is caught!
I also know that the Post Office requires at least a 30 day waiting period before it will investigate lost mail simply because mail doea get misplaced and could turn up. 30 days is a reasonable period of time.
Every hear of the mail getting delivered 30 years later? I recall reading these "news" stories with some frequency. You always wonder how in the heck this could happen, but the sad reality is that it does happen.
<< <i>I guess the truth (until proven wrong) hurts. >>
Funny, I was always under the impression that it was "innocent until proven guilty" in this country.
Perhaps I got this one wrong and hopefully, I don't get accused of anything where I have to "prove" my innocents to a mob.
A couple of threads have been posted lately stating that nothing of value has been posted on these forums. I guess this one just drives the point home in that Cameron has absolutely no obligation to tell anybody anything with regard to this matter until it gets cleared up with the Post Office.
For those yokels that whine a scream and leave negatives because they couldn't wait for the outcome of the investigation and instead accepted a refund, I hope to never have to deal with you on eBay.
Lost mail takes time to investigate and resolve and folks should understand this. Especially the members on this forum! Remember, these weren't damaged packages or even empty boxes, they are UNDELIVERED and presumed LOST packages. Only time and an investigation by the PO will resolve this issue.
If you want to know why Cameron has not responded to this thread, instead of thowing up accusations, ask him.
The name is LEE!