<< <i>I have, however, spent everything from Franklin halves all the way back to capped bust halves at face value. I have also spent half dimes, trimes, and peace dollars.
you've spent capped bust halves and half dimes at face value? no disrespect, but how old are you? >>
I'm 57. I didn't say that they were still in general circulation at the time...merely that I had spent them. Actually, the look on the faces of most cashiers is well worth the loss in bullion value. I am still tempted to spend some of my SAE's (Yes, I actually DO collect them as numismania). Of course, then that would make them coins!!!
Just because I'm old doesn't mean I don't love to look at a pretty bust.
First of all, the United States ASEs, AGEs and plats were essentially created for the purpose of being bullion. Premiums for newly released bullion coins can be highly volatile, but often times settle at close to melt price (such as for the 10th ann. plats). The magical PR70 and MS70 grade wouldn't carry a premium at all if it weren't for PCGS or NGC plastic, and the difference between 69 and 70 is so minute that very few can detect it---and those who can cherrypick 70's usually do so to turn a profit.
You can collect it, but it still is just bullion. I don't see how anyone could argue otherwise, save for the several exceptions where 69 examples trade for substiantial, if not tremendous premiums over melt (such as with the 95-W ASE).
And the Redbook categorizes them as "Bullion" too.
The bullion coins really have no historical significance at all, didn't pass through the hands of a '49ner, weren't issued at the Columbian Exposition, etc. The only thing cool about them is the design, but I'd much rather buy come common date Saints for the same price. At least they might have been confiscated by Nazis from a foreign bank during WWII, or have seen some part of history.
Are bullion coins collectible? Sure. But they're still just bullion.
<< <i>The comparison isn't apples and oranges because of condition or survival rate, it's apples and oranges because of the collector base. >>
Condition and survival rate affect collector base. Collectors are more likely interested coins with a lower survival rate. Coins with a perfect survival rate aren't as collectible because they're always available in perfect condition. Related to that, modern bullion coins were produced for collectors so they'll always have the stigma of not being true "money." Regardless of what people have said about Bust halves, Morgans, and Saints, those coins were not produced for collectors, they were produced as money and many circulated as such. When's the last time you spent an ASE at Wal-mart? Never. It's not money. It's bullion as art. And there's nothing wrong with that, but getting your undies in a bunch when people call it what it is is ridiculous. >>
Actually....they are true coins...as a matter of fact, I can take a one ounce UNC-W platinum eagle which has a face value of $100...go to the grocery store and purchase $100 worth of groceries with the one coin...it is legal tender just like any other coin in circulation.
And the Redbook categorizes them as "Bullion" too.
The Redbook does categorize them as bullion, which makes sense since they wouldn't fit neatly in with existing categories, but it's hardly definitive. The Redbook doesn't categorize any other issues as "Coins." The Redbook does include commemoratives with circulating coins, even though by the definition of many here, they aren't coins.
For instance, the 2000 Library of Congress $10 coin has always been worth much more than $10 in bullion value, was not issued for circulation, etc. I'm not sure how anyone can draw a meaningful distinction between that commemorative and any of the bullion coins. If you want to take a crack at that, I'd certainly be interested in reading it.
My 2007 version of the Redbook, entitled "A Guide Book of United States Coins," shows:
Pre-Federal Issues --Colonial --Post-Colonial
Federal Issues --Contract Issues and Patterns --Half Cents thru Double Eagles --Commemoratives --Proof and Mint Sets
Bullion --Silver --Gold --Platinum
U.S. Pattern Pieces
Other Issues --Private & Territorial Gold --Private Tokens --Confederate --etc...
Right of the bat, I'd say that Proof and Mint Sets should be placed ahead of Commemoratives, especially since the individual proof numbers are included with their respective series. The 1996 w dime, never intended for circulation, is placed among Roosevelt dimes as well, as is the Goldacre presentation finish Sac.
I'm guessing the logic of not doing so was because commemoratives start in 1892, proof and mint sets in 1936/1947.
<< <i>For instance, the 2000 Library of Congress $10 coin has always been worth much more than $10 in bullion value, was not issued for circulation, etc. I'm not sure how anyone can draw a meaningful distinction between that commemorative and any of the bullion coins. >>
How's this:
The LOC commemorates something. That bullion crap doesn't.
Respectfully yours with tongue firmly in cheek....Mike
Collector of Large Cents, US Type, and modern pocket change.
<< <i>Anyone have the condensed version of all this?
Classic collector: "It's just bullion." Bullion collector: "You're stupid." Classic collector: "I know you are but what am I?" Bullion collector: "Mom, make him stop!" Classic collector: "He started it!" >>
Don't feel bad nycounsel. When I hear "Oh, it's just a low grade colonial...eww!", I don't let it bother me...much.
<< <i>And the Redbook categorizes them as "Bullion" too.
The Redbook does categorize them as bullion, which makes sense since they wouldn't fit neatly in with existing categories, but it's hardly definitive. The Redbook doesn't categorize any other issues as "Coins." The Redbook does include commemoratives with circulating coins, even though by the definition of many here, they aren't coins.
For instance, the 2000 Library of Congress $10 coin has always been worth much more than $10 in bullion value, was not issued for circulation, etc. I'm not sure how anyone can draw a meaningful distinction between that commemorative and any of the bullion coins. If you want to take a crack at that, I'd certainly be interested in reading it. >>
The "many here" who would not define commemoratives as "coins" are just wrong. End of argument there.
One meaningful distinction between the 2000 LOC and a bullion coin is that the former was issued in a single year only for the purpose of commemorating the anniversary of something.
<< <i> The bullion coins really have no historical significance at all, didn't pass through the hands of a '49ner, weren't issued at the Columbian Exposition, etc. The only thing cool about them is the design, but I'd much rather buy come common date Saints for the same price. At least they might have been confiscated by Nazis from a foreign bank during WWII, or have seen some part of history.
Are bullion coins collectible? Sure. But they're still just bullion. >>
The history point has come up before and one I simply don't agree with. History is ONE day old, doesn't have to be ONE hundred. Historical events are certainly one of the most popular reasons to collect coins. i.e. 1912-Titanic, 1929- stock market crash, 2001- (911), 2008-stock market crash, etc etc etc. The fact that the US mint minted PLatinum bullion in 1997 is pretty historically significant, considering it was never done previously in the history of the US mint. I think people are putting away moderns that have historical significance to them, as well as classics. I'm middle aged and have seen and experienced quite a bit of history in my life and I'm sure you have too.....
<< <i> The bullion coins really have no historical significance at all, didn't pass through the hands of a '49ner, weren't issued at the Columbian Exposition, etc. The only thing cool about them is the design, but I'd much rather buy come common date Saints for the same price. At least they might have been confiscated by Nazis from a foreign bank during WWII, or have seen some part of history.
Are bullion coins collectible? Sure. But they're still just bullion. >>
The history point has come up before and one I simply don't agree with. History is ONE day old, doesn't have to be ONE hundred. Historical events are certainly one of the most popular reasons to collect coins. i.e. 1912-Titanic, 1929- stock market crash, 2001- (911), 2008-stock market crash, etc etc etc. The fact that the US mint minted PLatinum bullion in 1997 is pretty historically significant, considering it was never done previously in the history of the US mint. I think people are putting away moderns that have historical significance to them, as well as classics. I'm middle aged and have seen and experienced quite a bit of history in my life and I'm sure you have too..... >>
I don't agree. If I want a coin that's seen modern history I might as well collect pocket change--at least putting together a decent set of Memorial cents from circulation is a challenge. You could probably put together a complete set of ASE's by buying on the internet in one day. If some of the coins develop milkspots, they are easily replaced, assuming you have deep pockets if you're collecting 70s.
I'll agree that some bullion coins do have historical interest, such as the WTC recovered coins. But most bullion coins spent their whole lives in a tube, slab, or government packaging. That's not particularly interesting, and certainly doesn't help you relive history. Early C and D gold, though, was struck from the gold of our nations first gold rush, harvested by miners and then used as their medium of exchange. Many Morgan Dollars spent most of their lives in canvas mint bags, which some people might equate to ASE's sitting in tubes. But heck, those Morgans at least existed for many of the great events of the 20th century, and then were released to a frenzy of collectors and investors inthe second half of the 20th century. I find that to be at least a little more interesting than ASE's sitting in a green monster box.
Big difference is that NCLT was never intended for commerce or to be valued per the assigned denomination.
So what? You say that's a big difference, I say that it's an infintessimally insignificant difference.
The ONE DOLLAR on an ASE is less meaningful than the "redeemable for 1/10 of 1 cent" in the fine print of a grocery coupon. Who looks at an ASE and says, "By golly, a mighty fine United States silver dollar!"
This is simply not true. We aren't talking about the fiat dollar here. THAT would be analogous to a grocery store thrift stamp. The ONE DOLLAR on an ASE is no different than the ONE DOLLAR on a Morgan. No different. (Except maybe that the ASE has a higher intrinsic value in silver content.) And, upon gazing at a nice ASE the most likely remark would be, "By golly, a mighty fine United States Silver Eagle!" Not much difference there, I'd say.
Few of us have any problem with collecting NCLT and may even do so ourselves. But to demand that they be respected as equivalent to serious classic coins is too much. They just aren't.
You need to look at yourself in a mirror and try to repeat those words out loud without laughing. Do you really consider a VAM diecrack to be serious? Good grief, it's a worn die! Let's not wax poetic about broken equipment that wasn't maintained properly.
You see, it's really all about splitting hairs when you start talking about how one man's trash is another man's treasure. The respect *should* go in both directions, should it not?
If you want to get really serious, let's just say that bullion coins will be worth something when the dollar gets completely trashed. Can we all agree on that? Sheesh.
Q: Are You Printing Money? Bernanke: Not Literally
For those who say "Its just bullion", I would say recommend trying to put together a collection of one size of American Eagles 1986-2008. It's harder than you think. Took me almost a year to do 1/10 oz and 1988 wasn't the toughest one, oddly enough.
<< <i>For those who say "Its just bullion", I would say recommend trying to put together a collection of one size of American Eagles 1986-2008. It's harder than you think. Took me almost a year to do 1/10 oz and 1988 wasn't the toughest one, oddly enough. >>
It can be done in 1 day, for any series and any size on the internet, save for perhaps the "Gold Bullion Sets."
<< <i>Many Morgan Dollars spent most of their lives in canvas mint bags, which some people might equate to ASE's sitting in tubes. But heck, those Morgans at least existed for many of the great events of the 20th century... >>
...And all those gold coins and early federal issues missed all the important events and historical moments leading up to the invention of coinage. There have been a few things since coins were invented that were missed by them as well.
History didn't start at some arbitrary date (really) nor did it end with Morgans or any other coinage.
Classic collector: "It's just bullion." Bullion collector: "You're stupid." Classic collector: "I know you are but what am I?" Bullion collector: "Mom, make him stop!" Classic collector: "He started it!""
Bullion collector: "Is that Half Bust a Chinese Counterfeit?"
<< <i>Many Morgan Dollars spent most of their lives in canvas mint bags, which some people might equate to ASE's sitting in tubes. But heck, those Morgans at least existed for many of the great events of the 20th century... >>
...And all those gold coins and early federal issues missed all the important events and historical moments leading up to the invention of coinage. There have been a few things since coins were invented that were missed by them as well.
History didn't start at some arbitrary date (really) nor did it end with Morgans or any other coinage. >>
That's one of the few reasons I like meteorites.
They're the same hunk of metal they were almost 5 billion years ago.
<< <i>Few of us have any problem with collecting NCLT and may even do so ourselves. But to demand that they be respected as equivalent to serious classic coins is too much. They just aren't.
You need to look at yourself in a mirror and try to repeat those words out loud without laughing. Do you really consider a VAM diecrack to be serious? Good grief, it's a worn die! Let's not wax poetic about broken equipment that wasn't maintained properly. >>
One of the catalysts that got me back into coin collecting about 10 years ago was that I was playing poker at The Mirage in Vegas with some guy who used a proof silver eagle as a card cap. I saw that beautiful image of Liberty and remembered how much I loved Walking halves (and silver coins) as a kid. One of the first things I bought was a date run of the proof ASE coins, which I still have.
However, now that I've been back at it 10 years, I can honestly say that those coins don't get looked at much. I've learned to appreciate coins with individual character. Bullion seems like a finite universe, whereas classics are infinite. But, that's just my opinion, and I'm secure enough with it that I don't need to trash people who disagree.
<< <i>Big difference is that NCLT was never intended for commerce or to be valued per the assigned denomination.
So what? You say that's a big difference, I say that it's an infintessimally insignificant difference.
The ONE DOLLAR on an ASE is less meaningful than the "redeemable for 1/10 of 1 cent" in the fine print of a grocery coupon. Who looks at an ASE and says, "By golly, a mighty fine United States silver dollar!"
This is simply not true. We aren't talking about the fiat dollar here. THAT would be analogous to a grocery store thrift stamp. The ONE DOLLAR on an ASE is no different than the ONE DOLLAR on a Morgan. No different. (Except maybe that the ASE has a higher intrinsic value in silver content.) And, upon gazing at a nice ASE the most likely remark would be, "By golly, a mighty fine United States Silver Eagle!" Not much difference there, I'd say.
Few of us have any problem with collecting NCLT and may even do so ourselves. But to demand that they be respected as equivalent to serious classic coins is too much. They just aren't.
You need to look at yourself in a mirror and try to repeat those words out loud without laughing. Do you really consider a VAM diecrack to be serious? Good grief, it's a worn die! Let's not wax poetic about broken equipment that wasn't maintained properly.
You see, it's really all about splitting hairs when you start talking about how one man's trash is another man's treasure. The respect *should* go in both directions, should it not?
If you want to get really serious, let's just say that bullion coins will be worth something when the dollar gets completely trashed. Can we all agree on that? Sheesh. >>
You go Dude!
"Please help us keep these boards professional and informative…. And fun." - DW --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- BONGO HURTLES ALONG THE RAIN SODDEN HIGHWAY OF LIFE ON UNDERINFLATED BALD RETREAD TIRES
Lot's too read so I did not read it all. It could be that "Bullion" coins reflect the true value of our currency. I remember a thread about 1893 in an article I found on the Library of Congress web site that talked about the difference in value of money in gold coin vs money in silver coin, even then one was considered real money and the other fiat money, one haveing legal tender status and the other did not.
I would rather have the true currency (Bullion Coin) than the fiat currency any day. Also take note that each of the "Bullion Coins" have the the face value added to the gold or slver at the federal reserve, thus the premium. If it were just a gold or silver round with no dollar value stated then it would not qualify as a coin.
On BS&T Now: Nothing. Fighting the Fight for 11 Years with the big "C" - Never Ever Give Up! Member PCGS Open Forum board 2002 - 2006 (closed end of 2006) Current board since 2006 Successful trades with many members, over the past two decades, never a bad deal.
Its not just modern vs. classic, it is classic medium grade vs. higrade. On a recent post of mine, with pictures of an MS68 Morgan I purchased, I had people posting that its a waste of money vs. an MS66, since the average person can't tell the difference. The average person in the US can't get a job today, I am not average, I want what I want and can afford it, so shut the *&^% up and buy what you like.
I feel your frustration NY, just ignore the dumb arses. I guess we should all collect circ pre 1900 coins, the rest are either a waste of money or time.
BTW - do you have a line on an MS70 07-W set that could trade for some 06-W's or 08-Ws in MS70? I have a bunch of both but only the 07-W $50's in MS69.
CoinJunkie: Bullion seems like a finite universe, whereas classics are infinite. But, that's just my opinion, and I'm secure enough with it that I don't need to trash people who disagree.
A numastic coin is worth whatever you can trick the drunken fool your trying to sell it to into paying.
Do you think Oliver Stone was more interested in telling the truth about what really happened on that tragic day in Dallas in 1963 than he was in making money?
The measure of intelligence is the ability to change.
Albert Einstein (14 March 1879--18 April 1955)
Since very few Continental Dollars were made of silver, they quickly became despised and were tossed aside as a medium of exchange because they had no real value. Now, the Continental Dollar is revered by classic coin collectors as a treasure. Does that make the Patriots who fought in the Revolutionary War idiots because they considered the Continental Dollars to be trash?
Or does it make some of today's classic coin collectors hypocrites when they look down their noses at an American Silver Eagle, which not only contains an ounce of real silver, but was authorized by the Federal Government and clearly states "ONE DOLLAR" on it?
Q: Are You Printing Money? Bernanke: Not Literally
<< <i>This thread is funny. I love how worked up people get over others apparently not respecting their collecting choices. Few of us have any problem with collecting NCLT and may even do so ourselves. But to demand that they be respected as equivalent to serious classic coins is too much. They just aren't. >>
They just aren't by the people who don't collect them. Many of us don't give a rat's ass about VAMs. But we don't dismiss them with "It's just a VAM".
<< <i>Since very few Continental Dollars were made of silver, they quickly became despised and were tossed aside as a medium of exchange because they had no real value. Now, the Continental Dollar is revered by classic coin collectors as a treasure. Does that make the Patriots who fought in the Revolutionary War idiots because they considered the Continental Dollars to be trash? Or does it make some of today's classic coin collectors hypocrites when they look down their noses at an American Silver Eagle, which not only contains an ounce of real silver, but was authorized by the Federal Government and clearly states "ONE DOLLAR" on it? >>
Trade dollars were just bullion back then too. They are now highly sought after, especially in the high quality proofs. Modern platinum and some other bullion has very low mintages. Give it 100+ years for many to get melted and forgotten in cedar chests and safe deposit boxes and they will be a very respected coin too. --Jerry
Does that make the Patriots who fought in the Revolutionary War idiots because they considered the Continental Dollars to be trash?
Maybe not idiots, but wrong on that point.
Or does it make some of today's classic coin collectors hypocrites when they look down their noses at an American Silver Eagle, which not only contains an ounce of real silver, but was authorized by the Federal Government and clearly states "ONE DOLLAR" on it?
I think there's a very real distinction between a Continential Dollar - a rare coin with genuine historic significance - and an ASE, minted in the hundreds of thousands each year. Drawing that distinction doesn't bother me. What does bother me are the handful of members who repeatedly seek out ASE collectors threads simply to insult what those forum members enjoy.
I've been collecting coins for some time. I know the difference between a coin, a medal, an ingot, a token. The bullion coins are certainly coins. They don't circulate and were never intended for circulation. Also true for proof coins and most commemoratives. Much (and sometimes all) of the value is based on bullion content. Also true for many other coins. Sold by the Mint for a profit to collectors. Also true for many other coins. The purpose of refering to these coins as "bullion rounds" or "just bullion" or whatever, is simply a way of insulting the people who enjoy these. Bullion rounds can be issued by private firms. Just bullion can refer to any chunk of valuable metal. If the Mint issues it, calls it a coin, stamps a $ value on it, then it's a coin. I don't have to spend it at face value to prove it. I've never spent a proof Eisenhower dollar, and that's a coin. I've never spent a 2000 bimetallic commemorative $10, and that's a coin. I could sell a roll of 1964 quarters for bullion value, those are coins.
There are elitist idiots in all hobbies, from coins to dog showing. They are mainly people who glory in their little spotlight and need that to somehow validate their pitiful existence. Some, indeed, may have the means to acquire superb examples of their pursuit - however, their achivements, outside of the 'arena' are empty at best - they only feel worthy when putting down others or receiving praise for their 'status' symbols. Cheers, RickO
Does that make the Patriots who fought in the Revolutionary War idiots because they considered the Continental Dollars to be trash?
Maybe not idiots, but wrong on that point.
I think that they were neither idiots nor wrong. The Continental Dollars WERE worthless. It's only the passage of time and a recognition of the historical significance of the Revolution that gives the Continental Dollar its status.
Q: Are You Printing Money? Bernanke: Not Literally
Internet rage is a very real thing. People will make remarks in their posts that they would never say if face-to-face with a person or persons.
My guiding principle here is, "give a scofflaw enough rope and they'll do a very nice job of hanging themselves." Getting upset about assinine remarks made on internet message boards is sure to frustrate.
The measure of intelligence is the ability to change.
Albert Einstein (14 March 1879--18 April 1955)
Comments
<< <i>I have, however, spent everything from Franklin halves all the way back to capped bust halves at face value. I have also spent half dimes, trimes, and peace dollars.
you've spent capped bust halves and half dimes at face value? no disrespect, but how old are you? >>
I'm 57. I didn't say that they were still in general circulation at the time...merely that I had spent them. Actually, the look on the faces of most cashiers is well worth the loss in bullion value. I am still tempted to spend some of my SAE's (Yes, I actually DO collect them as numismania). Of course, then that would make them coins!!!
<< <i>
What does "It's just bullion" mean exactly?
>>
First of all, the United States ASEs, AGEs and plats were essentially created for the purpose of being bullion. Premiums for newly released bullion coins can be highly volatile, but often times settle at close to melt price (such as for the 10th ann. plats). The magical PR70 and MS70 grade wouldn't carry a premium at all if it weren't for PCGS or NGC plastic, and the difference between 69 and 70 is so minute that very few can detect it---and those who can cherrypick 70's usually do so to turn a profit.
You can collect it, but it still is just bullion. I don't see how anyone could argue otherwise, save for the several exceptions where 69 examples trade for substiantial, if not tremendous premiums over melt (such as with the 95-W ASE).
And the Redbook categorizes them as "Bullion" too.
The bullion coins really have no historical significance at all, didn't pass through the hands of a '49ner, weren't issued at the Columbian Exposition, etc. The only thing cool about them is the design, but I'd much rather buy come common date Saints for the same price. At least they might have been confiscated by Nazis from a foreign bank during WWII, or have seen some part of history.
Are bullion coins collectible? Sure. But they're still just bullion.
<< <i>
<< <i>The comparison isn't apples and oranges because of condition or survival rate, it's apples and oranges because of the collector base. >>
Condition and survival rate affect collector base. Collectors are more likely interested coins with a lower survival rate. Coins with a perfect survival rate aren't as collectible because they're always available in perfect condition. Related to that, modern bullion coins were produced for collectors so they'll always have the stigma of not being true "money." Regardless of what people have said about Bust halves, Morgans, and Saints, those coins were not produced for collectors, they were produced as money and many circulated as such. When's the last time you spent an ASE at Wal-mart? Never. It's not money. It's bullion as art. And there's nothing wrong with that, but getting your undies in a bunch when people call it what it is is ridiculous. >>
Actually....they are true coins...as a matter of fact, I can take a one ounce UNC-W platinum eagle which has a face value of $100...go to the grocery store and purchase $100 worth of groceries with the one coin...it is legal tender just like any other coin in circulation.
<< <i>man, i just love this place.
Hey keets, I'm actually quite fond of it also.
The Redbook does categorize them as bullion, which makes sense since they wouldn't fit neatly in with existing categories, but it's hardly definitive. The Redbook doesn't categorize any other issues as "Coins." The Redbook does include commemoratives with circulating coins, even though by the definition of many here, they aren't coins.
For instance, the 2000 Library of Congress $10 coin has always been worth much more than $10 in bullion value, was not issued for circulation, etc. I'm not sure how anyone can draw a meaningful distinction between that commemorative and any of the bullion coins. If you want to take a crack at that, I'd certainly be interested in reading it.
My 2007 version of the Redbook, entitled "A Guide Book of United States Coins," shows:
Pre-Federal Issues
--Colonial
--Post-Colonial
Federal Issues
--Contract Issues and Patterns
--Half Cents thru Double Eagles
--Commemoratives
--Proof and Mint Sets
Bullion
--Silver
--Gold
--Platinum
U.S. Pattern Pieces
Other Issues
--Private & Territorial Gold
--Private Tokens
--Confederate
--etc...
Right of the bat, I'd say that Proof and Mint Sets should be placed ahead of Commemoratives, especially since the individual proof numbers are included with their respective series. The 1996 w dime, never intended for circulation, is placed among Roosevelt dimes as well, as is the Goldacre presentation finish Sac.
I'm guessing the logic of not doing so was because commemoratives start in 1892, proof and mint sets in 1936/1947.
American Eagle Platinum Proof Coins
American Eagle Platinum Uncirculated Coins
"COINS"
Legal tender for $10 to $100
<< <i>For instance, the 2000 Library of Congress $10 coin has always been worth much more than $10 in bullion value, was not issued for circulation, etc. I'm not sure how anyone can draw a meaningful distinction between that commemorative and any of the bullion coins. >>
How's this:
The LOC commemorates something. That bullion crap doesn't.
Respectfully yours with tongue firmly in cheek....Mike
<< <i>Anyone have the condensed version of all this?
Classic collector: "It's just bullion."
Bullion collector: "You're stupid."
Classic collector: "I know you are but what am I?"
Bullion collector: "Mom, make him stop!"
Classic collector: "He started it!" >>
Don't feel bad nycounsel. When I hear "Oh, it's just a low grade colonial...eww!", I don't let it bother me...much.
<< <i>And the Redbook categorizes them as "Bullion" too.
The Redbook does categorize them as bullion, which makes sense since they wouldn't fit neatly in with existing categories, but it's hardly definitive. The Redbook doesn't categorize any other issues as "Coins." The Redbook does include commemoratives with circulating coins, even though by the definition of many here, they aren't coins.
For instance, the 2000 Library of Congress $10 coin has always been worth much more than $10 in bullion value, was not issued for circulation, etc. I'm not sure how anyone can draw a meaningful distinction between that commemorative and any of the bullion coins. If you want to take a crack at that, I'd certainly be interested in reading it. >>
The "many here" who would not define commemoratives as "coins" are just wrong. End of
argument there.
One meaningful distinction between the 2000 LOC and a bullion coin is that the former was
issued in a single year only for the purpose of commemorating the anniversary of something.
Cert Number PCGS No. Date Denom Var Grade Status
13651402 393329 2008-W $50 American Buffalo .9999 Fine PR70DC Cert Printed
<< <i>
The bullion coins really have no historical significance at all, didn't pass through the hands of a '49ner, weren't issued at the Columbian Exposition, etc. The only thing cool about them is the design, but I'd much rather buy come common date Saints for the same price. At least they might have been confiscated by Nazis from a foreign bank during WWII, or have seen some part of history.
Are bullion coins collectible? Sure. But they're still just bullion. >>
The history point has come up before and one I simply don't agree with. History is ONE day old, doesn't have to be ONE hundred. Historical events are certainly one of the most popular reasons to collect coins. i.e. 1912-Titanic, 1929- stock market crash, 2001- (911), 2008-stock market crash, etc etc etc. The fact that the US mint minted PLatinum bullion in 1997 is pretty historically significant, considering it was never done previously in the history of the US mint. I think people are putting away moderns that have historical significance to them, as well as classics. I'm middle aged and have seen and experienced quite a bit of history in my life and I'm sure you have too.....
"...it ain't no skin off my Frankie "
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
<< <i>
<< <i>
The bullion coins really have no historical significance at all, didn't pass through the hands of a '49ner, weren't issued at the Columbian Exposition, etc. The only thing cool about them is the design, but I'd much rather buy come common date Saints for the same price. At least they might have been confiscated by Nazis from a foreign bank during WWII, or have seen some part of history.
Are bullion coins collectible? Sure. But they're still just bullion. >>
The history point has come up before and one I simply don't agree with. History is ONE day old, doesn't have to be ONE hundred. Historical events are certainly one of the most popular reasons to collect coins. i.e. 1912-Titanic, 1929- stock market crash, 2001- (911), 2008-stock market crash, etc etc etc. The fact that the US mint minted PLatinum bullion in 1997 is pretty historically significant, considering it was never done previously in the history of the US mint. I think people are putting away moderns that have historical significance to them, as well as classics. I'm middle aged and have seen and experienced quite a bit of history in my life and I'm sure you have too..... >>
I don't agree. If I want a coin that's seen modern history I might as well collect pocket change--at least putting together a decent set of Memorial cents from circulation is a challenge. You could probably put together a complete set of ASE's by buying on the internet in one day. If some of the coins develop milkspots, they are easily replaced, assuming you have deep pockets if you're collecting 70s.
I'll agree that some bullion coins do have historical interest, such as the WTC recovered coins. But most bullion coins spent their whole lives in a tube, slab, or government packaging. That's not particularly interesting, and certainly doesn't help you relive history. Early C and D gold, though, was struck from the gold of our nations first gold rush, harvested by miners and then used as their medium of exchange. Many Morgan Dollars spent most of their lives in canvas mint bags, which some people might equate to ASE's sitting in tubes. But heck, those Morgans at least existed for many of the great events of the 20th century, and then were released to a frenzy of collectors and investors inthe second half of the 20th century. I find that to be at least a little more interesting than ASE's sitting in a green monster box.
So what? You say that's a big difference, I say that it's an infintessimally insignificant difference.
The ONE DOLLAR on an ASE is less meaningful than the "redeemable for 1/10 of 1 cent" in the fine print of a grocery coupon. Who looks at an ASE and says, "By golly, a mighty fine United States silver dollar!"
This is simply not true. We aren't talking about the fiat dollar here. THAT would be analogous to a grocery store thrift stamp. The ONE DOLLAR on an ASE is no different than the ONE DOLLAR on a Morgan. No different. (Except maybe that the ASE has a higher intrinsic value in silver content.) And, upon gazing at a nice ASE the most likely remark would be, "By golly, a mighty fine United States Silver Eagle!" Not much difference there, I'd say.
Few of us have any problem with collecting NCLT and may even do so ourselves. But to demand that they be respected as equivalent to serious classic coins is too much. They just aren't.
You need to look at yourself in a mirror and try to repeat those words out loud without laughing. Do you really consider a VAM diecrack to be serious? Good grief, it's a worn die! Let's not wax poetic about broken equipment that wasn't maintained properly.
You see, it's really all about splitting hairs when you start talking about how one man's trash is another man's treasure. The respect *should* go in both directions, should it not?
If you want to get really serious, let's just say that bullion coins will be worth something when the dollar gets completely trashed. Can we all agree on that? Sheesh.
I knew it would happen.
<< <i>For those who say "Its just bullion", I would say recommend trying to put together a collection of one size of American Eagles 1986-2008. It's harder than you think. Took me almost a year to do 1/10 oz and 1988 wasn't the toughest one, oddly enough. >>
It can be done in 1 day, for any series and any size on the internet, save for perhaps the "Gold Bullion Sets."
It was fun and when done I sold if off to fund another CC double eagle.
<< <i>Many Morgan Dollars spent most of their lives in canvas mint bags, which some people might equate to ASE's sitting in tubes. But heck, those Morgans at least existed for many of the great events of the 20th century... >>
...And all those gold coins and early federal issues missed all the important
events and historical moments leading up to the invention of coinage. There
have been a few things since coins were invented that were missed by them
as well.
History didn't start at some arbitrary date (really) nor did it end with Morgans
or any other coinage.
Bullion collector: "You're stupid."
Classic collector: "I know you are but what am I?"
Bullion collector: "Mom, make him stop!"
Classic collector: "He started it!""
Bullion collector: "Is that Half Bust a Chinese Counterfeit?"
<< <i>
<< <i>Many Morgan Dollars spent most of their lives in canvas mint bags, which some people might equate to ASE's sitting in tubes. But heck, those Morgans at least existed for many of the great events of the 20th century... >>
...And all those gold coins and early federal issues missed all the important
events and historical moments leading up to the invention of coinage. There
have been a few things since coins were invented that were missed by them
as well.
History didn't start at some arbitrary date (really) nor did it end with Morgans
or any other coinage. >>
That's one of the few reasons I like meteorites.
They're the same hunk of metal they were almost 5 billion years ago.
<< <i>Few of us have any problem with collecting NCLT and may even do so ourselves. But to demand that they be respected as equivalent to serious classic coins is too much. They just aren't.
You need to look at yourself in a mirror and try to repeat those words out loud without laughing. Do you really consider a VAM diecrack to be serious? Good grief, it's a worn die! Let's not wax poetic about broken equipment that wasn't maintained properly. >>
One of the catalysts that got me back into coin collecting about 10 years ago was that
I was playing poker at The Mirage in Vegas with some guy who used a proof silver
eagle as a card cap. I saw that beautiful image of Liberty and remembered how much
I loved Walking halves (and silver coins) as a kid. One of the first things I bought was
a date run of the proof ASE coins, which I still have.
However, now that I've been back at it 10 years, I can honestly say that those
coins don't get looked at much. I've learned to appreciate coins with individual
character. Bullion seems like a finite universe, whereas classics are infinite. But, that's
just my opinion, and I'm secure enough with it that I don't need to trash people who
disagree.
<< <i>Big difference is that NCLT was never intended for commerce or to be valued per the assigned denomination.
So what? You say that's a big difference, I say that it's an infintessimally insignificant difference.
The ONE DOLLAR on an ASE is less meaningful than the "redeemable for 1/10 of 1 cent" in the fine print of a grocery coupon. Who looks at an ASE and says, "By golly, a mighty fine United States silver dollar!"
This is simply not true. We aren't talking about the fiat dollar here. THAT would be analogous to a grocery store thrift stamp. The ONE DOLLAR on an ASE is no different than the ONE DOLLAR on a Morgan. No different. (Except maybe that the ASE has a higher intrinsic value in silver content.) And, upon gazing at a nice ASE the most likely remark would be, "By golly, a mighty fine United States Silver Eagle!" Not much difference there, I'd say.
Few of us have any problem with collecting NCLT and may even do so ourselves. But to demand that they be respected as equivalent to serious classic coins is too much. They just aren't.
You need to look at yourself in a mirror and try to repeat those words out loud without laughing. Do you really consider a VAM diecrack to be serious? Good grief, it's a worn die! Let's not wax poetic about broken equipment that wasn't maintained properly.
You see, it's really all about splitting hairs when you start talking about how one man's trash is another man's treasure. The respect *should* go in both directions, should it not?
If you want to get really serious, let's just say that bullion coins will be worth something when the dollar gets completely trashed. Can we all agree on that? Sheesh. >>
You go Dude!
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BONGO HURTLES ALONG THE RAIN SODDEN HIGHWAY OF LIFE ON UNDERINFLATED BALD RETREAD TIRES
I would rather have the true currency (Bullion Coin) than the fiat currency any day. Also take note that each of the "Bullion Coins" have the the face value added to the gold or slver at the federal reserve, thus the premium. If it were just a gold or silver round with no dollar value stated then it would not qualify as a coin.
Fighting the Fight for 11 Years with the big "C" - Never Ever Give Up!
Member PCGS Open Forum board 2002 - 2006 (closed end of 2006) Current board since 2006 Successful trades with many members, over the past two decades, never a bad deal.
<< <i>
They're the same hunk of metal they were almost 5 billion years ago. >>
That just shows that everything is really just perspective. Anything
that was around before man just doesn't interest me that much.
I feel your frustration NY, just ignore the dumb arses. I guess we should all collect circ pre 1900 coins, the rest are either a waste of money or time.
BTW - do you have a line on an MS70 07-W set that could trade for some 06-W's or 08-Ws in MS70? I have a bunch of both but only the 07-W $50's in MS69.
Do you think Oliver Stone was more interested in telling the truth about what really happened on that tragic day in Dallas in 1963 than he was in making money?
The measure of intelligence is the ability to change.
Albert Einstein (14 March 1879--18 April 1955)
Or does it make some of today's classic coin collectors hypocrites when they look down their noses at an American Silver Eagle, which not only contains an ounce of real silver, but was authorized by the Federal Government and clearly states "ONE DOLLAR" on it?
I knew it would happen.
<< <i>This thread is funny. I love how worked up people get over others apparently not respecting their collecting choices. Few of us have any problem with collecting NCLT and may even do so ourselves. But to demand that they be respected as equivalent to serious classic coins is too much. They just aren't. >>
They just aren't by the people who don't collect them. Many of us don't give a rat's ass about VAMs. But we don't dismiss them with "It's just a VAM".
--Jerry
<< <i>Modern collectors have all heard it time and again: "It's just bullion." >>
<< <i>Since very few Continental Dollars were made of silver, they quickly became despised and were tossed aside as a medium of exchange because they had no real value. Now, the Continental Dollar is revered by classic coin collectors as a treasure. Does that make the Patriots who fought in the Revolutionary War idiots because they considered the Continental Dollars to be trash? Or does it make some of today's classic coin collectors hypocrites when they look down their noses at an American Silver Eagle, which not only contains an ounce of real silver, but was authorized by the Federal Government and clearly states "ONE DOLLAR" on it? >>
Trade dollars were just bullion back then too. They are now highly sought after, especially in the high quality proofs. Modern platinum and some other bullion has very low mintages. Give it 100+ years for many to get melted and forgotten in cedar chests and safe deposit boxes and they will be a very respected coin too. --Jerry
Maybe not idiots, but wrong on that point.
Or does it make some of today's classic coin collectors hypocrites when they look down their noses at an American Silver Eagle, which not only contains an ounce of real silver, but was authorized by the Federal Government and clearly states "ONE DOLLAR" on it?
I think there's a very real distinction between a Continential Dollar - a rare coin with genuine historic significance - and an ASE, minted in the hundreds of thousands each year. Drawing that distinction doesn't bother me. What does bother me are the handful of members who repeatedly seek out ASE collectors threads simply to insult what those forum members enjoy.
I've been collecting coins for some time. I know the difference between a coin, a medal, an ingot, a token. The bullion coins are certainly coins. They don't circulate and were never intended for circulation. Also true for proof coins and most commemoratives. Much (and sometimes all) of the value is based on bullion content. Also true for many other coins. Sold by the Mint for a profit to collectors. Also true for many other coins. The purpose of refering to these coins as "bullion rounds" or "just bullion" or whatever, is simply a way of insulting the people who enjoy these. Bullion rounds can be issued by private firms. Just bullion can refer to any chunk of valuable metal. If the Mint issues it, calls it a coin, stamps a $ value on it, then it's a coin. I don't have to spend it at face value to prove it. I've never spent a proof Eisenhower dollar, and that's a coin. I've never spent a 2000 bimetallic commemorative $10, and that's a coin. I could sell a roll of 1964 quarters for bullion value, those are coins.
Maybe not idiots, but wrong on that point.
I think that they were neither idiots nor wrong. The Continental Dollars WERE worthless. It's only the passage of time and a recognition of the historical significance of the Revolution that gives the Continental Dollar its status.
I knew it would happen.
My guiding principle here is, "give a scofflaw enough rope and they'll do a very nice job of hanging themselves." Getting upset about assinine remarks made on internet message boards is sure to frustrate.
The measure of intelligence is the ability to change.
Albert Einstein (14 March 1879--18 April 1955)