It seems to me that the U.S. Mint refers to bullion as "coins". The U.S. Mint is the sole producer of these coins, therefore it is only logical to conclude that American Eagles are coins. While they may be intended for Investors, hence investor "coins" they also appeal to many collectors including yours truly. American Eagles.
Although the selling price is based on current market values of precious metals, consider that these coins would be much less collectible sans Date, denomination and mint marks. Whereas the "bullion" uncirculated coins have not mint marks, the Silver American "Uncirculated" coins do and as such are not classified as "bullion" according to the mint, as I read it.
Cheers!
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<< <i>The denominations on Mint-issued bullion are there so that no private mint can copy them exactly, because to do so would mean a visit from the Secret Service, and jail time for counterfeiting. That does not make them "coins" because they were issued as non-circulating collectibles (whether any were spent accidentally, or not). >>
This happens to be one of the best definitions for US Mint produced Bullion that I have ever read and I will remember it!
I decided to change calling the bathroom the John and renamed it the Jim. I feel so much better saying I went to the Jim this morning.
<< <i>The denominations on Mint-issued bullion are there so that no private mint can copy them exactly, because to do so would mean a visit from the Secret Service, and jail time for counterfeiting. That does not make them "coins" because they were issued as non-circulating collectibles (whether any were spent accidentally, or not). >>
This happens to be one of the best definitions for US Mint produced Bullion that I have ever read and I will remember it! >>
They are "Legal Tender". Linky. And although they are not intended to circulate, they are legally exchangeable for goods and services at their face value. So, we now know that American Eagles are "bullion" and valued at the market price of their precious metal contant; they are also "coins" as defined by the Bullion Coin Act of 1985; and they are also "Legal Tender". So, tt seems to me that Eagles have all the attributes of any other U.S. coin minted for circulation, and they are "bullion" too! That makes 'em kinda special IMO!
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Wasn't the 1794 US silver dollar "just bullion" 200 years ago?
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>They are "Legal Tender". Linky. And although they are not intended to circulate, they are legally exchangeable for goods and services at their face value. So, we now know that American Eagles are "bullion" and valued at the market price of their precious metal contant >>
That is a contradiction. No sane individual would take a one ounce round of .999 (or whatever it is) silver and barter for one dollar (its face value) in goods or services with it. They are bullion in that their value is predominantly derived form their base metal content. They are legal tender only as a technicality, for perhaps strong copy protection but also for marketability. Calling it a coin is a matter of your choice of semantics. The assertion that an ASE is numismatically comparable to a 19th century US silver dollar is incredulous. They are indeed pretty, and valuable, and perfectly collectible. If any enter the league of rarities, it is most likely because of a deliberate stifling of production by the US Mint. Topps could do the same for a sportscard I suppose. It would be possible that we would have widespread private melts of ASEs and AGEs in the future I suppose, but wouldn't count on it. Anyway, I like them myself. I see no reason to worry about them categorically. The risk is in the 70 graded stuff. People an try to dismiss the claim, but there's no denying that it is seriously risky long term.
..... Calling it a coin is a matter of your choice of semantics. The assertion that an ASE is numismatically comparable to a 19th century US silver dollar is incredulous. ... >>
I don't think the use of the term "Coin" is semantics. As posted by two in this thread: according Merriam-Websters dictionary and by Act of Congress, these are indeed "coins".
And, they are "numismatically comparable" to a 19th century US silver dollar in the sense that both are part of the broad area of numismatic study. Bullion and 19th century silver are the same in that they are made of specie (bullion) and that they are coins and are legal tender. I doubt anyone would spend a Morgan dollar in exchange for $1 worth of goods anymore than they would spend an AES dollar. But that doesn't mean they aren't the same in that regard. The only difference that I see is that AES dollars were not struck for circulation.
Now, if you want to talk about premiums over melt value and scarcity, there is a big difference between AES bullion and a 19th century silver dollar. But anyway you look at it, AES are buillion, coins and legal tender just as any 19th silver dollar.
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<< <i>The major reason people refer to modern bullion rounds as "just bullion" is because they are not coins. They are simply bullion rounds with an arbitrary number incribed on them. Coins are produced to facilitate trade. Bullion rounds are produced as an easy way for the public to participate in the precious metal market.
I (and most others who make the "just bullion" statements) don't make them to denigrate anyone who wishes to collect them. They are quite collectable and often bring a very nice premium over melt. They definately have their place in numismatics. That still doesn't make them coins, however. >>
Do you own any commemorative coins? I mean commemorative bullion rounds, or bullion octagonals.
Many of the so called bullion coins are actually commemorative coins.
..... Calling it a coin is a matter of your choice of semantics. The assertion that an ASE is numismatically comparable to a 19th century US silver dollar is incredulous. ... >>
I don't think the use of the term "Coin" is semantics. As posted by two in this thread: according Merriam-Websters dictionary and by Act of Congress, these are indeed "coins".
And, they are "numismatically comparable" to a 19th century US silver dollar in the sense that both are part of the broad area of numismatic study. Bullion and 19th century silver are the same in that they are made of specie (bullion) and that they are coins and are legal tender. I doubt anyone would spend a Morgan dollar in exchange for $1 worth of goods anymore than they would spend an AES dollar. But that doesn't mean they aren't the same in that regard. The only difference that I see is that AES dollars were not struck for circulation.
Now, if you want to talk about premiums over melt value and scarcity, there is a big difference between AES bullion and a 19th century silver dollar. But anyway you look at it, AES are buillion, coins and legal tender just as any 19th silver dollar. >>
Until the 1960s, a Morgan silver dollar would buy one dollar in goods ro services. Comparing that to what it is today, is ridiculous. A 1964 Kennedy half is not 50 cents in sane commerce either.
ASEs are bullion, indeed, arguably coins, and legal tender only by legal protectionist technicality. I believe "coin" originally was used as a verb, derived form the latin noun conus, meaning wedge. At some point, the product of coining became coins. These are instruments of commerce. Despite what the Congressional implications of legal tender are, ASEs are by no means instruments of commerce. They were never endowed with legal tender status with the intent to facilitate commercial transactions....except for the ones directly between the Mint and the collector. They are selling product, not distributiong coins. Call them coins if you like. They still are not tomorrow's classic coins. Put them at the back of the red book and that won't mean later they should be right up there after the Sacs and the SGDEs as real coins in the future.
What is the fundamental difference between buying NCLT fromt he US MInt or buying limited firing collector plates from the folks who make them? They are both produced in limited quantities for collectors and sold directly to them at market efficient prices. However, if you smack them with a hammer, one is worthless and the other worth a significant fraction of the original price paid per its material content. That is bullion to me. Pretty bullion, despite the hammer marks.
Becuase you get stupid idiots that go out and purchase slabbed Ms-69' American eagles, gold eagles and come into the shop expecting to sell them from some big premium. Then when you offer , they feel like your ripping them off, I tell them "sell them your self on E-bay" The tv promotions are a big part of this problem!!!!!!
I had a guy come in last week that wanted me to send in some 7 American silver eagles to PCGS for slabbing. I told him that was the biggest waste of money as they were clearly no 70's in the bunch, in fact some would probably only 67.
Wasn't there a thread some months back in which a business owner was paying employees or contractors with U.S. bullion coins and reporting the wages based on the "face amount" on the bullion.
Did this not go to court and the court ruled in the business owner's favor?
These were jobs that normally paid decent wages but he was using the bullion coins and paying based on minimum wage using the face amounts stated on the bullion coins.
The owner saved on workers comp rates, matching social security payments and unemployment taxes. The workers paid little or no income or social security taxes and then could sell the bullion coins at the going PM rate.
Either saw the thread here or elsewhere, but this would tend to undercut the issue of legal tender.
The US Mint's website states the face amounts on these coins are legal tender value.
Coins were developed to unitize bullion thats why there is reeding on the edges.
MS-60 common date saints, libs and morgans are valued just based on bullion because the market judges them to be just good looking bullion.
Coins dont have to be struck with the expectation of circulation or sold for face:
Morgans were struck for the sole purpose of unititizing the silver coming out of western mines and were not needed for commerce. On a percentage basis they just did not circulate and the govt dumped them on the asia market as soon as the international price of silver recovered so obviously Uncle Sam understood they were bullion and nothing more.
According to you guys -all the old proofs are not coins, all of the commems are not coins, the 1804 dollars are not coins etc etc etc
It is well documented who in this country determines what US coinage is and is not. And one thing is for certain its not you guys!
AND BY THE WAY GOLD AND SILVER ARE REAL MONEY AND HAVE BEEN FOR ABOUT 5,000 YEARS THAT WE KNOW OF! COINS WERE DEVELOPED TO UNITIZE REAL MONEY!
I think this is another case of the Grumpy old dealers -vs- the "flippers" argument. Let the old goats smell their own feces. There is no point in arguing with them!
<< <i>Why do you care what others say about what you collect. Collect what you like. It's that simple. Do you need validation from other collectors?
I recognize the "it's just bullion" comment as the insult it is meant to be, but it has not changed what I collect in the slightest.
It's the lack of civility that's uncalled for.
if what others say about the series you collect bothers you then I might suggest that it is you who lacks confidence in your series.
There are a lot of coins I don't collect -- 3 cent silvers, Presidential dollars, state quarters -- but I would never seek out a thread written by those who do for the purpose of insulting them. Those who do ... well, that reveals a lot more about them than those they attempt to put down.
Edited to add: If anything, it seems to me that a few classic collectors feel threatened by how these "just bullion" coin threads generate so much interest that they are often at the top of the message board, while the classic coins don't get as much attention. >>
Why are you singling out classic collectors? An Agenda?
<< <i>According to you guys -all the old proofs are not coins, all of the commems are not coins, the 1804 dollars are not coins etc etc etc >>
That's because they AREN'T really coins! None of those items were ever meant to be used as money. They are non-circulating legal tender...just like the ASE's of today. Again, they are still quite collectable and have a place in numismatics, but being a numismatic collectable does not make an item a coin.
Just because I'm old doesn't mean I don't love to look at a pretty bust.
<< <i>According to you guys -all the old proofs are not coins, all of the commems are not coins, the 1804 dollars are not coins etc etc etc >>
That's because they AREN'T really coins! None of those items were ever meant to be used as money. They are non-circulating legal tender...just like the ASE's of today. Again, they are still quite collectable and have a place in numismatics, but being a numismatic collectable does not make an item a coin. >>
If I may, they are indeed coins in every sense of the word. If you wish to classify them numismatically then you may regard them as NCLT coins and CLT coins. But they are both "coins".
"Please help us keep these boards professional and informative…. And fun." - DW --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- BONGO HURTLES ALONG THE RAIN SODDEN HIGHWAY OF LIFE ON UNDERINFLATED BALD RETREAD TIRES
I'm basically a "Classics" kind of guy (Large Cents), but i Do have my "Modern Crap" collection on the NGC Registry. Kennedy Proofs, and I enjoy collecting the set. True, you can barely give them away outside of Ebay, but it is a fun collection. I guess what I'm trying to say is: If you are a COLLECTOR, you can enjoy any collection. If you are an INVESTOR, well, your "Bullion" collection would probably be in the same league as my Kennedy Proof collection. Enjoy collecting and forget about the "investment" factor, it's more fun that way!
I don't think there is a need to put others down... and I am trying to be sincere for the moment. Its just that there is soooooo much to coin collecting and an interest has to start somewhere and if it is in bullion, that is great. It just that such an interst and passion should not begin and end in the same place without the effort of exploration to see what can be seen.
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
The problem is YOU dont determine what a US coin is or is not. >>
You are right, I don't. The definition of "coin" does... to wit...1.a medium of commercial exchange usually bearing a particular value. 2. Money. >>
If Whitman's has an album for it, its a coin!
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<< <i>Becuase you get stupid idiots that go out and purchase slabbed Ms-69' American eagles, gold eagles and come into the shop expecting to sell them from some big premium. Then when you offer , they feel like your ripping them off, I tell them "sell them your self on E-bay" The tv promotions are a big part of this problem!!!!!!
I had a guy come in last week that wanted me to send in some 7 American silver eagles to PCGS for slabbing. I told him that was the biggest waste of money as they were clearly no 70's in the bunch, in fact some would probably only 67. >>
Newsflash, ask 99 out of 100 people on the street if they will pay more than 1 cent for a penny, and the answer will be no. The fact is, anyone willing to pay more than face or melt for a classic coin, token, round, coin, bullion, NCLT or whatever is essentially an "idiot" by most peoples standards, including dealers. It's us "idiots" that keep dealers in business. Therefore, "stupid idiot" would not be my choice of words for customers or future customers. I agree with you that most slabbed bullion isn't worth more than melt, but these are not "stupid idiots" they are "uneducated customers" that should be treated with respect if you want to remain in business.
I'm wondering why BU rolls of Morgans or Walking Liberty Halves wouldn't be considered "NCLT"? How about BU rolls of Washington Quarters, Franklin Halves or Roosevelt Dimes? After all, those specific coins have never circulated as money.
Or, for that matter - why wouldn't any uncirculated piece, MS-60 or better be considered "NCLT"? After all, a BU Seated Half is technically, non-circulating legal tender since it never circulated and is still technically legal tender. Even if 99.9% of its brethren circulated one day, it's still only a matter of relativity.
I find it ironic that even though most ASEs have not been circulated, they might still be used as a medium of exchange one day. You never know.
Considering strict definitions, the U.S. Mint is the authorized issuer of all Silver, Gold and Platinum Eagles. And because the U.S. Mint is a branch of the U.S. Treasury which is arguably the final authority on what is a coin in this country, if the U.S. Treasury wants to call them bullion coins, then they are in fact, bullion coins whether or not anyone else likes the concept or not.
Bullion is a pretty easy concept as well. It seems self-evident that the value of bullion is based on its metallic content, and not what's stamped on it. That's true for bars, bullion coins, obsolete common gold, American Eagle Bullion coins and even 95% copper brass cents. Once the metallic worth exceeds its face value - it's bullion (unless there is a numismatic premium).
Pretty simple.
For the OP, "It's just bullion" is no different than "it's just a trime" or "it's just a shield nickel". Translation - "I don't collect it, I can't get it cheap, and I can't make money off it, so I simply want it to go away".
Q: Are You Printing Money? Bernanke: Not Literally
<< <i>Becuase you get stupid idiots that go out and purchase slabbed Ms-69' American eagles, gold eagles and come into the shop expecting to sell them from some big premium. Then when you offer , they feel like your ripping them off, I tell them "sell them your self on E-bay" The tv promotions are a big part of this problem!!!!!!
I had a guy come in last week that wanted me to send in some 7 American silver eagles to PCGS for slabbing. I told him that was the biggest waste of money as they were clearly no 70's in the bunch, in fact some would probably only 67. >>
Newsflash, ask 99 out of 100 people on the street if they will pay more than 1 cent for a penny, and the answer will be no. The fact is, anyone willing to pay more than face or melt for a token, round, coin, bullion, NCLT or whatever is essentially an "idiot" by most peoples standards, including dealers. It's us "idiots" that keep dealers in business. Therefore, "stupid idiot" would not be my choice of words for customers or future customers. I agree with you that most slabbed bullion isn't worth more than melt, but these are not "stupid idiots" they are "uneducated customers" that should be treated with respect if you want to remain in business. >>
So what if the "collector" is buying his "bullion" coins raw? I understand the "idocy" of the modern slabs, when most of them will grade 68-69 and some 70. But if I buy a dated bullion coin from the mint, I would argue that it has a premium over a silver "round" or silver "bar" of the same weight, produced indepently from the Mint, because it has a date, U.S. Mint pedigree, and only so many are coined with that date, even if the mintage is more than 9 million. These are precious metal coins with low enough mintages to equate to more than just a 1-oz. hunk of sillver bullion metal.
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Probably from a technical standpoint it's NCLT, but it's a mute point. These are coins to most people, widely collected, some sell for significant premiums, and are here to stay. Look at all the corruption in the classic market now, counterfeits, doctoring, grade inflation. Why would any sane person want to get into this market. Why are moderns so popular, it's "coin collecting for dummies" that's why. People don't have to think, and frankly I like not thinking sometimes. I always scrutinize my classics, I never scrutinize my NCLT. Also, coin collecting is evolving, and the classic market, as much as I love it, is a house of cards, based on the biggest fool theory. If this market should ever come tumbling down, I would much rather be holding modern bullion coins than Indian Cents worth $1.50 in face value or the same in melt value. The fact that there isn't really a 2-way market for modern gold, platinum, or silver coins means nothing. Try to sell your "PQ" classics or "toned" classics for large premiums to dealers.....we as collectors have found ways to circomvent dealers altogether and get fair market value for our coins.
You are right, I don't. The definition of "coin" does... to wit...1.a medium of commercial exchange usually bearing a particular value. 2. Money. >>
You quit with the definitions where you chose. If you read on in the same entry you'll find terms that encompass most of the metal disks people here collect as "coins".
<< <i>I'm wondering why BU rolls of Morgans or Walking Liberty Halves wouldn't be considered "NCLT"? How about BU rolls of Washington Quarters, Franklin Halves or Roosevelt Dimes? After all, those specific coins have never circulated as money.
Or, for that matter - why wouldn't any uncirculated piece, MS-60 or better be considered "NCLT"? After all, a BU Seated Half is technically, non-circulating legal tender since it never circulated and is still technically legal tender. Even if 99.9% of its brethren circulated one day, it's still only a matter of relativity. >>
Big difference is that NCLT was never intended for commerce or to be valued per the assigned denomination. The ONE DOLLAR on an ASE is less meaningful than the "redeemable for 1/10 of 1 cent" in the fine print of a grocery coupon. Who looks at an ASE and says, "By golly, a mighty fine United States silver dollar!"
<< <i>I find it ironic that even though most ASEs have not been circulated, they might still be used as a medium of exchange one day. You never know. >>
Very much a possibility. Slabs of salt and sea shells have potential too. ASEs much moreso than sea shells though IMHO. The point is that is not their intended use in issuing them.
This thread is funny. I love how worked up people get over others apparently not respecting their collecting choices. Few of us have any problem with collecting NCLT and may even do so ourselves. But to demand that they be respected as equivalent to serious classic coins is too much. They just aren't.
Bullion is actually worth something, will numastic coins aren't. That is why they are mad and have to put down bullion. Really, a 1913 Quarter in Good is worth $18 but if it has an S on it, its worth $1800. LOL. Thats Funny. That is the "Greater Fool" theory in action. A gold Bullion 1 ounce coin is worth whatever an ounce of gold is worth. A numastic coin is worth whatever you can trick the drunken fool your trying to sell it to into paying. An S worth $1782.
<< <i>This thread is funny. I love how worked up people get over others apparently not respecting their collecting choices. Few of us have any problem with collecting NCLT and may even do so ourselves. But to demand that they be respected as equivalent to serious classic coins is too much. They just aren't. >>
All you have to think about are the last two issues of CoinWorld w/ the Page 1 Articles and "It's just Bullion" from the US Mint becomes so much more appealing (to me, anyway).
@ Coxe: I love how worked up people get over others apparently not respecting their collecting choices. Few of us have any problem with collecting NCLT and may even do so ourselves. But to demand that they be respected as equivalent to serious classic coins is too much. They just aren't.
I agreed with your initial post distinguishing the bullion coins; there are certainly valid distinctions to be made. But you lost me with this last comment. No one is demanding that bullion coins be treated as equivalent to "serious" classic coins by those who dislike them; people are entitled to like or dislike, collect or not collect what they want.
The thread questioned what motivates the few individuals who repeatedly seek out and post to the various bullion coin discussions simply to insult those who collect them.
I don't make a practice of seeking out threads about coins that I don't collect for the purpose of insulting the people who do; based on what you've written, I suspect that you don't either.
@ JRocco: If anything, it seems to me that a few classic collectors feel threatened by how these "just bullion" coin threads generate so much interest that they are often at the top of the message board, while the classic coins don't get as much attention.
Why are you singling out classic collectors? An Agenda?
Not classic collectors as a whole, only the few classic collectors on this board who make a point of seeking out threads about coins they don't like for the purpose of being rude to those who do.
My own interest in "bullion rounds" is largely specific to the 2006 to 2008 w platinum uncirculated coins.
They weren't issued for circulation. No argument from me there. I have no problem if you want to draw a line in the sand between circulating coins and non-circulating coins, even if I think we share the same beach.
That said, the platinum w uncirculateds hold up very well against any non-circulating coin issued by the Mint in the last 90 years. Mintages (by type) lower than any coin since the 1915 PanPac golds. Precious metal value higher than gold (at least for now). Classic designs representing the foundation of our country - the three branches of government.
PCGS in their early years did not grade Bullion. Why do you think that is? Then they saw NGC grading bullion and moderns and the profits available and they started grading them. Nothing against PCGS. If there is market for it why not. I still think paying large amounts of money for a bullion coin with one less tick on it than a grade lower makes no sense. At least with older coins there are striking differnces and luster differences etc. With modern bullion coins its all about the "hits" since everything else is essentially the same on al these coins.
"a medium of commercial exchange usually bearing a particular value. 2. Money. >>
Right coins struck on bullion like most over the last 5000 years are a medium of exchange and a store of value. I can and have used them as a medium of exchange. I have payed people bullion coins in exchange for their labor...... I paid a guy to port my intake manifold a 2008 w quarter platinum eagle. He likes the coins and was glad to get it plus he did not have to discuss it with his wife.....
So again its just YOUR view and thats it!
When was the last time you gave a Morgan as a tip?
<< <i>"a medium of commercial exchange usually bearing a particular value. 2. Money. >>
Right coins struck on bullion like most over the last 5000 years are a medium of exchange and a store of value. I can and have used them as a medium of exchange. I have payed people bullion coins in exchange for their labor...... I paid a guy to port my intake manifold a 2008 w quarter platinum eagle. He likes the coins and was glad to get it plus he did not have to discuss it with his wife.....
So again its just YOUR view and thats it!
When was the last time you gave a Morgan as a tip? >>
Would he have done the job for 25 1 dollar coins? If not then you didn't pay him with a $25.00 coin--you traded bullion for his labor. Again, there is absolutely nothing wrong with this. Nor is there anything wrong with collecting bullion rounds. I think that many of them are very attractive. I have never stated otherwise.
As for giving out a Morgan as a tip I have never done so. This is because I have never had any desire to collect them and therefore never owned one, not because they are worth more than face. I have, however, spent everything from Franklin halves all the way back to capped bust halves at face value. I have also spent half dimes, trimes, and peace dollars. That's because they are actually coins--not just "stores of value".
Just because I'm old doesn't mean I don't love to look at a pretty bust.
personally, I do think there's a distinction between a coin intended for circulation and one that isn't.
I understand part of the allure of classics; maybe George Washington spent this 1794 cent; maybe this 1844 quarter spent some time in Lincoln's pockets. Classic circulating coins can be a viable link to our past, and there is an appeal to that.
However, once we start getting territorial over non-circulating coins, to me the lines are a little more blurry. I suppose that my classic roots are what draws me to the APEs over the ASE or AGE issues-- the changing reverses, in my mind, makes them more like commemorative coins. My view has always been that coins must be issued by the government, have a face value and useable as legal tender.
It certainly wouldn't make much sense to pay for your stuff at Walmart using $1 silver American Eagles or $50 gold American Eagles-- the same way it wouldn't make sense to pay with a pocket full of 1964 Washington quarters but legally you could (if you could convince the cashier they were dollars). That makes them coins. It doesn't mean you have to collect them. It doesn't mean you have to appreciate them. But they're coins, and are part of our hobby.
I have, however, spent everything from Franklin halves all the way back to capped bust halves at face value. I have also spent half dimes, trimes, and peace dollars.
you've spent capped bust halves and half dimes at face value? no disrespect, but how old are you?
Classic collector: "It's just bullion." Bullion collector: "You're stupid." Classic collector: "I know you are but what am I?" Bullion collector: "Mom, make him stop!" Classic collector: "He started it!"
Thanks for the reply nycounsel. I am obviously a classic coin collector, but I have, love and collect several modern coin series and have quite a few bullion issues that I also enjoy and will pass along to the kids someday.
Comments
It seems to me that the U.S. Mint refers to bullion as "coins". The U.S. Mint is the sole producer of these coins, therefore it is only logical to conclude that American Eagles are coins. While they may be intended for Investors, hence investor "coins" they also appeal to many collectors including yours truly. American Eagles.
Although the selling price is based on current market values of precious metals, consider that these coins would be much less collectible sans Date, denomination and mint marks. Whereas the "bullion" uncirculated coins have not mint marks, the Silver American "Uncirculated" coins do and as such are not classified as "bullion" according to the mint, as I read it.
Cheers!
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I only feel compelled to put down Sunnywood. It's a tough job, but somebody's gotta do it.
<< <i>The denominations on Mint-issued bullion are there so that no private mint can copy them exactly, because to do so would mean a visit from the Secret Service, and jail time for counterfeiting. That does not make them "coins" because they were issued as non-circulating collectibles (whether any were spent accidentally, or not). >>
This happens to be one of the best definitions for US Mint produced Bullion that I have ever read and I will remember it!
The name is LEE!
<< <i>
<< <i>The denominations on Mint-issued bullion are there so that no private mint can copy them exactly, because to do so would mean a visit from the Secret Service, and jail time for counterfeiting. That does not make them "coins" because they were issued as non-circulating collectibles (whether any were spent accidentally, or not). >>
This happens to be one of the best definitions for US Mint produced Bullion that I have ever read and I will remember it! >>
They are "Legal Tender". Linky. And although they are not intended to circulate, they are legally exchangeable for goods and services at their face value. So, we now know that American Eagles are "bullion" and valued at the market price of their precious metal contant; they are also "coins" as defined by the Bullion Coin Act of 1985; and they are also "Legal Tender". So, tt seems to me that Eagles have all the attributes of any other U.S. coin minted for circulation, and they are "bullion" too! That makes 'em kinda special IMO!
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2 a: a usually flat piece of metal issued by governmental authority as money b: metal money c: something resembling a coin especially in shape
So, yep, bullion issued in round, pressed form would be a coin.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>They are "Legal Tender". Linky. And although they are not intended to circulate, they are legally exchangeable for goods and services at their face value. So, we now know that American Eagles are "bullion" and valued at the market price of their precious metal contant >>
That is a contradiction. No sane individual would take a one ounce round of .999 (or whatever it is) silver and barter for one dollar (its face value) in goods or services with it. They are bullion in that their value is predominantly derived form their base metal content. They are legal tender only as a technicality, for perhaps strong copy protection but also for marketability. Calling it a coin is a matter of your choice of semantics. The assertion that an ASE is numismatically comparable to a 19th century US silver dollar is incredulous. They are indeed pretty, and valuable, and perfectly collectible. If any enter the league of rarities, it is most likely because of a deliberate stifling of production by the US Mint. Topps could do the same for a sportscard I suppose. It would be possible that we would have widespread private melts of ASEs and AGEs in the future I suppose, but wouldn't count on it. Anyway, I like them myself. I see no reason to worry about them categorically. The risk is in the 70 graded stuff. People an try to dismiss the claim, but there's no denying that it is seriously risky long term.
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<< <i>
..... Calling it a coin is a matter of your choice of semantics. The assertion that an ASE is numismatically comparable to a 19th century US silver dollar is incredulous. ... >>
I don't think the use of the term "Coin" is semantics. As posted by two in this thread: according Merriam-Websters dictionary and by Act of Congress, these are indeed "coins".
And, they are "numismatically comparable" to a 19th century US silver dollar in the sense that both are part of the broad area of numismatic study. Bullion and 19th century silver are the same in that they are made of specie (bullion) and that they are coins and are legal tender. I doubt anyone would spend a Morgan dollar in exchange for $1 worth of goods anymore than they would spend an AES dollar. But that doesn't mean they aren't the same in that regard. The only difference that I see is that AES dollars were not struck for circulation.
Now, if you want to talk about premiums over melt value and scarcity, there is a big difference between AES bullion and a 19th century silver dollar. But anyway you look at it, AES are buillion, coins and legal tender just as any 19th silver dollar.
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they call your coins "just bullion" instead of "just crap".
<< <i>The major reason people refer to modern bullion rounds as "just bullion" is because they are not coins. They are simply bullion rounds with an arbitrary number incribed on them. Coins are produced to facilitate trade. Bullion rounds are produced as an easy way for the public to participate in the precious metal market.
I (and most others who make the "just bullion" statements) don't make them to denigrate anyone who wishes to collect them. They are quite collectable and often bring a very nice premium over melt. They definately have their place in numismatics. That still doesn't make them coins, however. >>
Do you own any commemorative coins? I mean commemorative bullion rounds, or bullion octagonals.
Many of the so called bullion coins are actually commemorative coins.
<< <i>
<< <i>
..... Calling it a coin is a matter of your choice of semantics. The assertion that an ASE is numismatically comparable to a 19th century US silver dollar is incredulous. ... >>
I don't think the use of the term "Coin" is semantics. As posted by two in this thread: according Merriam-Websters dictionary and by Act of Congress, these are indeed "coins".
And, they are "numismatically comparable" to a 19th century US silver dollar in the sense that both are part of the broad area of numismatic study. Bullion and 19th century silver are the same in that they are made of specie (bullion) and that they are coins and are legal tender. I doubt anyone would spend a Morgan dollar in exchange for $1 worth of goods anymore than they would spend an AES dollar. But that doesn't mean they aren't the same in that regard. The only difference that I see is that AES dollars were not struck for circulation.
Now, if you want to talk about premiums over melt value and scarcity, there is a big difference between AES bullion and a 19th century silver dollar. But anyway you look at it, AES are buillion, coins and legal tender just as any 19th silver dollar. >>
Until the 1960s, a Morgan silver dollar would buy one dollar in goods ro services. Comparing that to what it is today, is ridiculous. A 1964 Kennedy half is not 50 cents in sane commerce either.
ASEs are bullion, indeed, arguably coins, and legal tender only by legal protectionist technicality. I believe "coin" originally was used as a verb, derived form the latin noun conus, meaning wedge. At some point, the product of coining became coins. These are instruments of commerce. Despite what the Congressional implications of legal tender are, ASEs are by no means instruments of commerce. They were never endowed with legal tender status with the intent to facilitate commercial transactions....except for the ones directly between the Mint and the collector. They are selling product, not distributiong coins. Call them coins if you like. They still are not tomorrow's classic coins. Put them at the back of the red book and that won't mean later they should be right up there after the Sacs and the SGDEs as real coins in the future.
What is the fundamental difference between buying NCLT fromt he US MInt or buying limited firing collector plates from the folks who make them? They are both produced in limited quantities for collectors and sold directly to them at market efficient prices. However, if you smack them with a hammer, one is worthless and the other worth a significant fraction of the original price paid per its material content. That is bullion to me. Pretty bullion, despite the hammer marks.
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<< <i>
What is the fundamental difference between buying NCLT fromt he US MInt or buying limited firing collector plates from the folks who make them? >>
Ya' can't get 1804 dollars from the Bradford Exchange.
I had a guy come in last week that wanted me to send in some 7 American silver eagles to PCGS for slabbing. I told him that was the biggest waste of money as they were clearly no 70's in the bunch, in fact some would probably only 67.
Did this not go to court and the court ruled in the business owner's favor?
These were jobs that normally paid decent wages but he was using the bullion coins and paying based on minimum wage using the face amounts stated on the bullion coins.
The owner saved on workers comp rates, matching social security payments and unemployment taxes. The workers paid little or no income or social security taxes and then could sell the bullion coins at the going PM rate.
Either saw the thread here or elsewhere, but this would tend to undercut the issue of legal tender.
The US Mint's website states the face amounts on these coins are legal tender value.
MS-60 common date saints, libs and morgans are valued just based on bullion because the market judges them to be just good looking bullion.
Coins dont have to be struck with the expectation of circulation or sold for face:
Morgans were struck for the sole purpose of unititizing the silver coming out of western mines and were not needed for commerce. On a percentage basis they just did not circulate and the govt dumped them on the asia market as soon as the international price of silver recovered so obviously Uncle Sam understood they were bullion and nothing more.
According to you guys -all the old proofs are not coins, all of the commems are not coins, the 1804 dollars are not coins etc etc etc
It is well documented who in this country determines what US coinage is and is not. And one thing is for certain its not you guys!
AND BY THE WAY GOLD AND SILVER ARE REAL MONEY AND HAVE BEEN FOR ABOUT 5,000 YEARS THAT WE KNOW OF! COINS WERE DEVELOPED TO UNITIZE REAL MONEY!
<< <i>Why do you care what others say about what you collect. Collect what you like. It's that simple. Do you need validation from other collectors?
I recognize the "it's just bullion" comment as the insult it is meant to be, but it has not changed what I collect in the slightest.
It's the lack of civility that's uncalled for.
if what others say about the series you collect bothers you then I might suggest that it is you who lacks confidence in your series.
There are a lot of coins I don't collect -- 3 cent silvers, Presidential dollars, state quarters -- but I would never seek out a thread written by those who do for the purpose of insulting them. Those who do ... well, that reveals a lot more about them than those they attempt to put down.
Edited to add: If anything, it seems to me that a few classic collectors feel threatened by how these "just bullion" coin threads generate so much interest that they are often at the top of the message board, while the classic coins don't get as much attention. >>
Why are you singling out classic collectors?
An Agenda?
<< <i>According to you guys -all the old proofs are not coins, all of the commems are not coins, the 1804 dollars are not coins etc etc etc >>
That's because they AREN'T really coins! None of those items were ever meant to be used as money. They are non-circulating legal tender...just like the ASE's of today. Again, they are still quite collectable and have a place in numismatics, but being a numismatic collectable does not make an item a coin.
<< <i>
<< <i>According to you guys -all the old proofs are not coins, all of the commems are not coins, the 1804 dollars are not coins etc etc etc >>
That's because they AREN'T really coins! None of those items were ever meant to be used as money. They are non-circulating legal tender...just like the ASE's of today. Again, they are still quite collectable and have a place in numismatics, but being a numismatic collectable does not make an item a coin. >>
If I may, they are indeed coins in every sense of the word. If you wish to classify them numismatically then you may regard them as NCLT coins and CLT coins. But they are both "coins".
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The problem is YOU dont determine what a US coin is or is not.
San Diego, CA
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
<< <i>"That's because they AREN'T really coins!"
The problem is YOU dont determine what a US coin is or is not. >>
You are right, I don't. The definition of "coin" does... to wit...1.a medium of commercial exchange usually bearing a particular value. 2. Money.
<< <i>
<< <i>"That's because they AREN'T really coins!"
The problem is YOU dont determine what a US coin is or is not. >>
You are right, I don't. The definition of "coin" does... to wit...1.a medium of commercial exchange usually bearing a particular value. 2. Money. >>
If Whitman's has an album for it, its a coin!
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<< <i>Becuase you get stupid idiots that go out and purchase slabbed Ms-69' American eagles, gold eagles and come into the shop expecting to sell them from some big premium. Then when you offer , they feel like your ripping them off, I tell them "sell them your self on E-bay" The tv promotions are a big part of this problem!!!!!!
I had a guy come in last week that wanted me to send in some 7 American silver eagles to PCGS for slabbing. I told him that was the biggest waste of money as they were clearly no 70's in the bunch, in fact some would probably only 67. >>
Newsflash, ask 99 out of 100 people on the street if they will pay more than 1 cent for a penny, and the answer will be no. The fact is, anyone willing to pay more than face or melt for a classic coin, token, round, coin, bullion, NCLT or whatever is essentially an "idiot" by most peoples standards, including dealers. It's us "idiots" that keep dealers in business. Therefore, "stupid idiot" would not be my choice of words for customers or future customers. I agree with you that most slabbed bullion isn't worth more than melt, but these are not "stupid idiots" they are "uneducated customers" that should be treated with respect if you want to remain in business.
Edited to add classic coins
Or, for that matter - why wouldn't any uncirculated piece, MS-60 or better be considered "NCLT"? After all, a BU Seated Half is technically, non-circulating legal tender since it never circulated and is still technically legal tender. Even if 99.9% of its brethren circulated one day, it's still only a matter of relativity.
I find it ironic that even though most ASEs have not been circulated, they might still be used as a medium of exchange one day. You never know.
Considering strict definitions, the U.S. Mint is the authorized issuer of all Silver, Gold and Platinum Eagles. And because the U.S. Mint is a branch of the U.S. Treasury which is arguably the final authority on what is a coin in this country, if the U.S. Treasury wants to call them bullion coins, then they are in fact, bullion coins whether or not anyone else likes the concept or not.
Bullion is a pretty easy concept as well. It seems self-evident that the value of bullion is based on its metallic content, and not what's stamped on it. That's true for bars, bullion coins, obsolete common gold, American Eagle Bullion coins and even 95% copper brass cents. Once the metallic worth exceeds its face value - it's bullion (unless there is a numismatic premium).
Pretty simple.
For the OP, "It's just bullion" is no different than "it's just a trime" or "it's just a shield nickel". Translation - "I don't collect it, I can't get it cheap, and I can't make money off it, so I simply want it to go away".
I knew it would happen.
<< <i>
<< <i>Becuase you get stupid idiots that go out and purchase slabbed Ms-69' American eagles, gold eagles and come into the shop expecting to sell them from some big premium. Then when you offer , they feel like your ripping them off, I tell them "sell them your self on E-bay" The tv promotions are a big part of this problem!!!!!!
I had a guy come in last week that wanted me to send in some 7 American silver eagles to PCGS for slabbing. I told him that was the biggest waste of money as they were clearly no 70's in the bunch, in fact some would probably only 67. >>
Newsflash, ask 99 out of 100 people on the street if they will pay more than 1 cent for a penny, and the answer will be no. The fact is, anyone willing to pay more than face or melt for a token, round, coin, bullion, NCLT or whatever is essentially an "idiot" by most peoples standards, including dealers. It's us "idiots" that keep dealers in business. Therefore, "stupid idiot" would not be my choice of words for customers or future customers. I agree with you that most slabbed bullion isn't worth more than melt, but these are not "stupid idiots" they are "uneducated customers" that should be treated with respect if you want to remain in business. >>
So what if the "collector" is buying his "bullion" coins raw? I understand the "idocy" of the modern slabs, when most of them will grade 68-69 and some 70. But if I buy a dated bullion coin from the mint, I would argue that it has a premium over a silver "round" or silver "bar" of the same weight, produced indepently from the Mint, because it has a date, U.S. Mint pedigree, and only so many are coined with that date, even if the mintage is more than 9 million. These are precious metal coins with low enough mintages to equate to more than just a 1-oz. hunk of sillver bullion metal.
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<< <i>
You are right, I don't. The definition of "coin" does... to wit...1.a medium of commercial exchange usually bearing a particular value. 2. Money. >>
You quit with the definitions where you chose. If you read on in the same
entry you'll find terms that encompass most of the metal disks people here
collect as "coins".
<< <i>I'm wondering why BU rolls of Morgans or Walking Liberty Halves wouldn't be considered "NCLT"? How about BU rolls of Washington Quarters, Franklin Halves or Roosevelt Dimes? After all, those specific coins have never circulated as money.
Or, for that matter - why wouldn't any uncirculated piece, MS-60 or better be considered "NCLT"? After all, a BU Seated Half is technically, non-circulating legal tender since it never circulated and is still technically legal tender. Even if 99.9% of its brethren circulated one day, it's still only a matter of relativity. >>
Big difference is that NCLT was never intended for commerce or to be valued per the assigned denomination. The ONE DOLLAR on an ASE is less meaningful than the "redeemable for 1/10 of 1 cent" in the fine print of a grocery coupon. Who looks at an ASE and says, "By golly, a mighty fine United States silver dollar!"
<< <i>I find it ironic that even though most ASEs have not been circulated, they might still be used as a medium of exchange one day. You never know. >>
Very much a possibility. Slabs of salt and sea shells have potential too. ASEs much moreso than sea shells though IMHO. The point is that is not their intended use in issuing them.
This thread is funny. I love how worked up people get over others apparently not respecting their collecting choices. Few of us have any problem with collecting NCLT and may even do so ourselves. But to demand that they be respected as equivalent to serious classic coins is too much. They just aren't.
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1. It is a hobby, a pastime to be enjoyed.
2. There are many ways to collect coins.
All are good, all are legitimate , all are a
part of the coin collecting fraternity.
3. Those who make fun of any type of collecting
are pure and simply..Imperious..milk duds!
4. There is no aspect of coin collecting, that is out
of the norm, or to be scorned.
Camelot
<< <i>4. There is no aspect of coin collecting, that is out
of the norm, or to be scorned. >>
Dude! You have no idea of what depraved acts I am capable of committing with my coins!
<< <i>This thread is funny. I love how worked up people get over others apparently not respecting their collecting choices. Few of us have any problem with collecting NCLT and may even do so ourselves. But to demand that they be respected as equivalent to serious classic coins is too much. They just aren't. >>
<< <i>Bullion "coins" are all the same. Grading them is absurd. >>
Actually, they aren't, and it isn't. Now, grading them by human eye on a scale of
69-70 may be absurd, but that isn't what you said.
<< <i>Bullion "coins" are all the same. Grading them is absurd. >>
Not far from this forum's sponsor's view until........
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All you have to think about are the last two issues of CoinWorld w/ the Page 1 Articles and "It's just Bullion" from the US Mint becomes so much more appealing (to me, anyway).
I agreed with your initial post distinguishing the bullion coins; there are certainly valid distinctions to be made. But you lost me with this last comment. No one is demanding that bullion coins be treated as equivalent to "serious" classic coins by those who dislike them; people are entitled to like or dislike, collect or not collect what they want.
The thread questioned what motivates the few individuals who repeatedly seek out and post to the various bullion coin discussions simply to insult those who collect them.
I don't make a practice of seeking out threads about coins that I don't collect for the purpose of insulting the people who do; based on what you've written, I suspect that you don't either.
@ JRocco: If anything, it seems to me that a few classic collectors feel threatened by how these "just bullion" coin threads generate so much interest that they are often at the top of the message board, while the classic coins don't get as much attention.
Why are you singling out classic collectors? An Agenda?
Not classic collectors as a whole, only the few classic collectors on this board who make a point of seeking out threads about coins they don't like for the purpose of being rude to those who do.
My own interest in "bullion rounds" is largely specific to the 2006 to 2008 w platinum uncirculated coins.
They weren't issued for circulation. No argument from me there. I have no problem if you want to draw a line in the sand between circulating coins and non-circulating coins, even if I think we share the same beach.
That said, the platinum w uncirculateds hold up very well against any non-circulating coin issued by the Mint in the last 90 years. Mintages (by type) lower than any coin since the 1915 PanPac golds. Precious metal value higher than gold (at least for now). Classic designs representing the foundation of our country - the three branches of government.
Image is for proofs, but design is the same:
"a medium of commercial exchange usually bearing a particular value. 2. Money. >>
Right coins struck on bullion like most over the last 5000 years are a medium of exchange and a store of value. I can and have used them as a medium of exchange. I have payed people bullion coins in exchange for their labor...... I paid a guy to port my intake manifold a 2008 w quarter platinum eagle. He likes the coins and was glad to get it plus he did not have to discuss it with his wife.....
So again its just YOUR view and thats it!
When was the last time you gave a Morgan as a tip?
<< <i>"a medium of commercial exchange usually bearing a particular value. 2. Money. >>
Right coins struck on bullion like most over the last 5000 years are a medium of exchange and a store of value. I can and have used them as a medium of exchange. I have payed people bullion coins in exchange for their labor...... I paid a guy to port my intake manifold a 2008 w quarter platinum eagle. He likes the coins and was glad to get it plus he did not have to discuss it with his wife.....
So again its just YOUR view and thats it!
When was the last time you gave a Morgan as a tip? >>
Would he have done the job for 25 1 dollar coins? If not then you didn't pay him with a $25.00 coin--you traded bullion for his labor. Again, there is absolutely nothing wrong with this. Nor is there anything wrong with collecting bullion rounds. I think that many of them are very attractive. I have never stated otherwise.
As for giving out a Morgan as a tip I have never done so. This is because I have never had any desire to collect them and therefore never owned one, not because they are worth more than face. I have, however, spent everything from Franklin halves all the way back to capped bust halves at face value. I have also spent half dimes, trimes, and peace dollars. That's because they are actually coins--not just "stores of value".
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
I understand part of the allure of classics; maybe George Washington spent this 1794 cent; maybe this 1844 quarter spent some time in Lincoln's pockets. Classic circulating coins can be a viable link to our past, and there is an appeal to that.
However, once we start getting territorial over non-circulating coins, to me the lines are a little more blurry. I suppose that my classic roots are what draws me to the APEs over the ASE or AGE issues-- the changing reverses, in my mind, makes them more like commemorative coins. My view has always been that coins must be issued by the government, have a face value and useable as legal tender.
It certainly wouldn't make much sense to pay for your stuff at Walmart using $1 silver American Eagles or $50 gold American Eagles-- the same way it wouldn't make sense to pay with a pocket full of 1964 Washington quarters but legally you could (if you could convince the cashier they were dollars). That makes them coins. It doesn't mean you have to collect them. It doesn't mean you have to appreciate them. But they're coins, and are part of our hobby.
you've spent capped bust halves and half dimes at face value? no disrespect, but how old are you?
Steve
Classic collector: "It's just bullion."
Bullion collector: "You're stupid."
Classic collector: "I know you are but what am I?"
Bullion collector: "Mom, make him stop!"
Classic collector: "He started it!"
I am obviously a classic coin collector, but I have, love and collect several
modern coin series and have quite a few bullion issues that I also enjoy and
will pass along to the kids someday.