How stupid do I look?

julie43 · November 14, 2008 6:55AM

I went to my local B&M a few days ago and was curious how much he would give me for a 1996W NGC PR70 ULTRACAM Cauldron $5 gold. He looked at it and was about to grab a gray sheet then stopped and said 200 bucks. I told him I was late for my MENSA meeting and had to rush out. I feel extremely insulted as I buy many coins from him. I know what I paid for this and was expecting at least that (around 6). I don't feel I ever want to go to this place again am I being too critical?

ChrisRx · November 14, 2008 6:59AM

Get away from that scumbag.

cars · November 14, 2008 6:59AM

He's gotta make profit lol.

notwilight · November 14, 2008 7:00AM

Could you post a pic please?

MillerJW · November 14, 2008 7:01AM

I got the same answers from a few guys around here. I offered my MS-70 First Flight to a guy just to see if he was interested and he continued to give me a 10 minute lecture on why all modern coins are MS-70's and TPG's are a waste of money and i was therefor stupid for buying the coin in the first place.

66RB · November 14, 2008 7:03AM

I would find another collector to sell any MS/PF-70 to as the dealers are not interested in 70's and the exorbitant premium over a 69.

He probably would have said $200 for a raw one as well

julie43 · November 14, 2008 7:05AM

<< Could you post a pic please? >>

I will try as I am still not able to figure this out, I bought it off ebay because I couldn't believe what a great deal it was when I entered the serial number on NGC where I was a member. the coin listed at 3 times that much or a little more.

julie43 · November 14, 2008 7:08AM

<< I would find another collector to sell any MS/PF-70 to as the dealers are not interested in 70's and the exorbitant premium over a 69.

He probably would have said $200 for a raw one as well

>>

Yup that is exactly what he said.

19Lyds · November 14, 2008 7:08AM

He was just trying to low ball you Julie.

If you think you can get more then put it up on eBay with a BIN. Expect some low ball offers to come in but just ignore them.

BTW, what is graysheet on these?

19Lyds · November 14, 2008 7:09AM

And no you don;t look stupid!

julie43 · November 14, 2008 7:10AM

<< I got the same answers from a few guys around here. I offered my MS-70 First Flight to a guy just to see if he was interested and he continued to give me a 10 minute lecture on why all modern coins are MS-70's and TPG's are a waste of money and i was therefor stupid for buying the coin in the first place. >>

MEN!!! Funny how they lecture about buying raw coins as well!!!

notwilight · November 14, 2008 7:10AM

<< 

<< Could you post a pic please? >>

I will try as I am still not able to figure this out, I bought it off ebay because I couldn't believe what a great deal it was when I entered the serial number on NGC where I was a member. the coin listed at 3 times that much or a little more. >>

I know what the coin looks like. I just wanted to answer your question.

As for his offer, he just wasn't interested in it and gave you a very low offer (lower than market for raw, I believe). I generally use PCGS 69 prices for NGC 70s.

Beware of price guide prices. A better indicator is recent sales on teletrade.

--Jerry

MidLifeCrisis · November 14, 2008 7:12AM

My first thought was never do business with him again.

However, you said you buy many coins from him. This tells me that you have reached some comfort level with him as a dealer. So, it's probably a good idea to figure out why he gave you such a low ball offer. Maybe he currently has several in stock. Maybe he has had a hard time selling coins like this recently or got burned badly on one in the past. Maybe it's just a bad time for him right now and he has cash flow problems.

If I were you, I would just ask him why he only offered $200.

Then I would consider offering it to another dealer or trying to sell it at a show.

julie43 · November 14, 2008 7:14AM

<< And no you don;t look stupid! >>

Thank you LEE!! I don't have grey sheet but Red Book on PF67 is $700 and NGC serial number price was like 2,100.00

julie43 · November 14, 2008 7:20AM

<< My first thought was never do business with him again.

However, you said you buy many coins from him. This tells me that you have reached some comfort level with him as a dealer. So, it's probably a good idea to figure out why he gave you such a low ball offer. Maybe he currently has several in stock. Maybe he has had a hard time selling coins like this recently or got burned badly on one in the past. Maybe it's just a bad time for him right now and he has cash flow problems.

If I were you, I would just ask him why he only offered $200.

Then I would consider offering it to another dealer or trying to sell it at a show. >>

Thank you for the different perspective on this matter, as I was so insulted I was seeing red good thing I didn't shoot my mouth off

LALASD4 · November 14, 2008 7:23AM

There is really no demand, he is not really interested and would not even make an offer but since you are a regular customer and he just offered you a little more than melt for it.

Most Olympic coins sells for a little more than melt, there is just no demand.

Barndog · November 14, 2008 7:23AM

I try not to be insulted by someone else's lowball offers. I'm sure you will reach a happy conclusion with your coin (likely elsewhere) and continue to use your dealer as a source for coins

julie43 · November 14, 2008 7:24AM

<< 

<< 

<< Could you post a pic please? >>

I will try as I am still not able to figure this out, I bought it off ebay because I couldn't believe what a great deal it was when I entered the serial number on NGC where I was a member. the coin listed at 3 times that much or a little more. >>

I know what the coin looks like. I just wanted to answer your question.

As for his offer, he just wasn't interested in it and gave you a very low offer (lower than market for raw, I believe). I generally use PCGS 69 prices for NGC 70s.

Beware of price guide prices. A better indicator is recent sales on teletrade.

--Jerry >>

Thank you, I will start watching teletrade sales and go from there.

mkman123 · November 14, 2008 7:24AM

can you post a pic of this coin? I don't know what a $5 cauldron coin is.

Thanks

julie43 · November 14, 2008 7:25AM

Thank you everyone for your comments and advise they have all been very appreciated

RYK · November 14, 2008 7:27AM

<< There is really no demand, he is not really interested and would not even make an offer but since you are a regular customer and he just offered you a little more than melt for it. >>

I agree with this point. This guy probably looks at the coin and sees "melt", no matter what the plastic says. I would tend to agree. If you think they are worth more, look at recent ebay sales or Teletrade sales. In a weakening environment, the premium for perfect plastic and issues that are not so widely collected (I had never even heard of the coin until you mentioned it) will continue to erode.

(This latter message was sponsored by 291fifth

)

MidLifeCrisis · November 14, 2008 7:27AM

<< can you post a pic of this coin? I don't know what a $5 cauldron coin is.

Thanks >>

Look here.

julie43 · November 14, 2008 7:34AM

<< 

<< There is really no demand, he is not really interested and would not even make an offer but since you are a regular customer and he just offered you a little more than melt for it. >>

I agree with this point. This guy probably looks at the coin and sees "melt", no matter what the plastic says. I would tend to agree. If you think they are worth more, look at recent ebay sales or Teletrade sales. In a weakening environment, the premium for perfect plastic and issues that are not so widely collected (I had never even heard of the coin until you mentioned it) will continue to erode.

(This latter message was sponsored by 291fifth

) >>

He might have said that to me and I would have felt better, the store was empty and he had time to explain. I have decided to give this coin to my Godson on the day he graduates High School. He loves the coin and I love him

RYK · November 14, 2008 7:38AM

<< 

<< 

<< There is really no demand, he is not really interested and would not even make an offer but since you are a regular customer and he just offered you a little more than melt for it. >>

I agree with this point. This guy probably looks at the coin and sees "melt", no matter what the plastic says. I would tend to agree. If you think they are worth more, look at recent ebay sales or Teletrade sales. In a weakening environment, the premium for perfect plastic and issues that are not so widely collected (I had never even heard of the coin until you mentioned it) will continue to erode.

(This latter message was sponsored by 291fifth

) >>

He might have said that to me and I would have felt better, the store was empty and he had time to explain. I have decided to give this coin to my Godson on the day he graduates High School. He loves the coin and I love him

>>

He might have said that to me and I would have felt better...

I am going to address that point. I have found that dealers, of all shapes and sizes, when confronted with a regular customer who would like to sell something that the dealer really cannot use or does not like, do not do a good job of communicating this to the seller. It can lead to hard feelings, as it likely did in your case. I think that honesty and forthrightness are always greatly appreciated and a lot better than a lowball or a song-and-dance.

BECOKA · November 14, 2008 8:24AM

I have talked to many dealers at shows who have no interest or do not believe in the 70 grade stuff. They buy at melt or 69 pricing and also sell accordingly. I sometimes see 70's sitting in cases marked at their normal bullion pricing.

This is where you wonder why the person selling did not shop it around more to find a dealer that specializes in modern plastic.

Broadstruck · November 14, 2008 9:08AM

I told him I was late for my MENSA meeting

Barry · November 14, 2008 9:16AM

If you've made up your mind not to buy from him again, try this?
Go in like you want to buy something from him. Say it's a $100 coin. Offer him $10 for it. When he looks disgusted, just leave (for the final time.)

Lakesammman · November 14, 2008 9:36AM

How stupid do I look?

I think he meant post YOUR picture!

cmerlo1 · November 14, 2008 9:39AM

Interested or not, the offer was insulting and a scumbag move. Unfortunately, I think this is the norm, rather than the exception. I ran into that with varieties, which is why I no longer even try to sell to dealers at shops or shows. I have found that there is a market for many items that dealers say there is no market for. It's the internet!

Walmann · November 14, 2008 9:43AM

<< I got the same answers from a few guys around here. I offered my MS-70 First Flight to a guy just to see if he was interested and he continued to give me a 10 minute lecture on why all modern coins are MS-70's and TPG's are a waste of money and i was therefor stupid for buying the coin in the first place. >>

Wow, if he or she didn't present their case in a clinical manner, good way to alienate people and lose customers too.
Slapping people doesn't get them on your side.

darktone · November 14, 2008 9:49AM

the market for these types of coins seem to be on ebay and the internet. They just don't seem like they are real popular at shows or coin shops. Try it on ebay and see what happens. Don't be too hard on the dealer- he probably thought you only payed a few bucks more than he offered you and had he no reason to think he offended you. I would not stop going there if you have had good dealings previously.

lathmach · November 14, 2008 9:50AM

<< 

<< And no you don;t look stupid! >>

Thank you LEE!! I don't have grey sheet but Red Book on PF67 is $700 and NGC serial number price was like 2,100.00 ............Julie43 >>

Call NGC and ask them how to go about selling it to them for the $2100.
Ya know, it's real easy to put high prices on things if you don't buy them.

Ray

coinnuttius · November 14, 2008 10:58AM

<< I went to my local B&M a few days ago and was curious how much he would give me for a 1996W NGC PR70 ULTRACAM Cauldron $5 gold. He looked at it and was about to grab a gray sheet then stopped and said 200 bucks. I told him I was late for my MENSA meeting and had to rush out. I feel extremely insulted as I buy many coins from him. I know what I paid for this and was expecting at least that (around 6). I don't feel I ever want to go to this place again am I being too critical? >>

No, it's pretty much how biz is done. You believe you have a certain value on the coin, he's thinking how to sell it, for how much, his cost/effort, profit margin. Seems like they sell for around $400 on tele; some sellers fishing for >$1k noobs on fraudbay. Your "outrage" is based on the latter estimate, not the former, no?

julie43 · November 14, 2008 11:17AM

<< How stupid do I look?

I think he meant post YOUR picture!

>>

Great now I DO look stupid

SeaEagleCoins · November 14, 2008 11:44AM

<<How stupid do I look?>>

This thread is useless without pics...

I'm sorry...I just couldn't resist...

RedTiger · November 14, 2008 12:21PM

$400 and $425 are the prices realized on Teletrade in the past 60 days. If a person thinks these coins are worth $600 or more, that person is indeed stupid or at least foolish. I didn't check the Ebay auctions. If the price paid was more than $500, it was likely too much.

There is virtually zero retail demand for such coins at shows and at stores. The demand is mostly on Teletrade and Ebay. Sell on Teletrade and pay the 20% in Teletrade fees and shipping that $400 translates into about $320 net after eight weeks and that is if gold holds steady. While $200 is low, $100 might be the offer at a pawn shop. Get used to it, if you collect these items.

Here is a link to the $400 auction:
$400 1996W PF70 $5 Cauldron

the $425 auction
$425

darktone · November 14, 2008 12:27PM

<< $400 and $425 are the prices realized on Teletrade in the past 60 days. If a person thinks these coins are worth $600 or more, that person is indeed stupid or at least foolish.

<< 

When collectors are made to believe these coins are worth $600 I don't deem them stupid- they have been fooled that's for sure but stupid.. no I don't think so.

RYK · November 14, 2008 12:31PM

<< 

<< $400 and $425 are the prices realized on Teletrade in the past 60 days. If a person thinks these coins are worth $600 or more, that person is indeed stupid or at least foolish.

<< 

When collectors are made to believe these coins are worth $600 I don't deem them stupid- they have been fooled that's for sure but stupid.. no I don't think so. >>

I agree, and I am enjoying the still life in the sig line.

MidLifeCrisis · November 14, 2008 12:34PM

Previous Price History from Teletrade®
Oct 19 2008 Modern Gold Commemorative 1996W Proof Olympic $5 Cauldron PCGS 70 DCAM $1208*
Sep 3 2008 Modern Gold Commemorative 1996W Proof Olympic $5 Cauldron PCGS 70 DCAM $1323*
Sep 1 2008 Modern Gold Commemorative 1996W Proof Olympic $5 Cauldron PCGS 70 DCAM $1323*
Aug 13 2008 Modern Gold Commemorative 1996W Proof Olympic $5 Cauldron PCGS 70 DCAM $1438*

Previous Price History from Teletrade®
Nov 9 2008 Modern Gold Commemorative 1996W Proof Olympic $5 Cauldron NGC 70 Ultra Cam $489*
Oct 20 2008 Modern Gold Commemorative 1996W Proof Olympic $5 Cauldron NGC 70 Ultra Cam $460*
Jan 7 2008 Modern Gold Commemorative 1996W Proof Olympic $5 Cauldron NGC 70 Ultra Cam $588*
Dec 23 2007 Modern Gold Commemorative 1996W Proof Olympic $5 Cauldron NGC 70 Ultra Cam $784*

Wow. I think the best advice for Julie is to try and cross her coin to PCGS.

RYK · November 14, 2008 12:40PM

Wow. I think the best advice for Julie is to try and cross her coin to PCGS.

It may be worth more as a NGC-70 than a PCGS-69. IIRC, they never cross 70's.

I see a trend of price erosion over time, especially with the NGC-graded coins.

As I stated earlier, this is the kind of coin that I would expect to suffer in a soft market for coins: modern, condition rarity, unpopular series

Shamika · November 14, 2008 1:16PM

Some dealers want you to haggle. He says 200, you say 600, he says 300, you say 500, he says 400, you say SOLD! That's how it works. If you don't like it, you'll always get low balled by B&M dealers.

julie43 · November 14, 2008 1:20PM

<< Previous Price History from Teletrade®
Oct 19 2008 Modern Gold Commemorative 1996W Proof Olympic $5 Cauldron PCGS 70 DCAM $1208*
Sep 3 2008 Modern Gold Commemorative 1996W Proof Olympic $5 Cauldron PCGS 70 DCAM $1323*
Sep 1 2008 Modern Gold Commemorative 1996W Proof Olympic $5 Cauldron PCGS 70 DCAM $1323*
Aug 13 2008 Modern Gold Commemorative 1996W Proof Olympic $5 Cauldron PCGS 70 DCAM $1438*

Previous Price History from Teletrade®
Nov 9 2008 Modern Gold Commemorative 1996W Proof Olympic $5 Cauldron NGC 70 Ultra Cam $489*
Oct 20 2008 Modern Gold Commemorative 1996W Proof Olympic $5 Cauldron NGC 70 Ultra Cam $460*
Jan 7 2008 Modern Gold Commemorative 1996W Proof Olympic $5 Cauldron NGC 70 Ultra Cam $588*
Dec 23 2007 Modern Gold Commemorative 1996W Proof Olympic $5 Cauldron NGC 70 Ultra Cam $784*

Wow. I think the best advice for Julie is to try and cross her coin to PCGS. >>

kudos to you midlifecrisis I think I will do that

OneCent · November 14, 2008 1:23PM

<< 

I generally use PCGS 69 prices for NGC 70s.

>>

So you only lowball by one grade level???

Very generous, indeed!!!

julie43 · November 14, 2008 1:24PM

<< <<How stupid do I look?>>

This thread is useless without pics...

I'm sorry...I just couldn't resist...

>>

RedTiger · November 14, 2008 2:33PM

<< $400 and $425 are the prices realized on Teletrade in the past 60 days. If a person thinks these coins are worth $600 or more, that person is indeed stupid or at least foolish.
.....
>>>>
When collectors are made to believe these coins are worth $600 I don't deem them stupid- they have been fooled that's for sure but stupid.. no I don't think so. >>

It took me two minutes to look up the recent prices on Teletrade. There were over 20 replies before anyone posted the prices. What does that tell you? No one makes anyone buy coins. Coins are "luxury" items. Want to use the adjective foolish instead of stupid, fine by me.

How many times have newbies been told to research prices before buying? How many times will they ignore that, and then come on here with some story about disappointment. I always tell the newbies to research the typical wholesale and retail prices before buying. If a person goes in with their eyes open, there will be no disappointment. Anyone reading, should understand that in the current environment, that for many gold or platinum ultramoderns the offer at many store fronts may be about melt price, no matter the price guides, or prices realized at auction.

Before crossing to PCGS, best to research the Heritage archives for pop reports to see the approximate odds of a successful raw cross. Want to play the game and spin the wheel? Go ahead, but do the research first, with the understanding that odds are typically very low for crossing NGC70s to PCGS70 when there is a significant price difference.

PCGS 70s tend to sell for more money because there are fewer of them. PCGS doesn't cross 70s submitted in holders. Busting the NGC70 out of the slab has to be done very carefully, or it will never make it back into a NGC70 slab, much less have any chance at a PCGS70.

notwilight · November 14, 2008 2:36PM

<< 

<< I generally use PCGS 69 prices for NGC 70s. >>

So you only lowball by one grade level??? Very generous, indeed!!!

>>

You don't know moderns. And I tell them to use that when deciding what to pay, not what I will pay. I don't generally deal in NGC coins for that very reason. but you got your cheap shot in, even if it was without foundation. --jerry

COALPORTER · November 14, 2008 2:42PM

<< I would find another collector to sell any MS/PF-70 to as the dealers are not interested in 70's and the exorbitant premium over a 69.

He probably would have said $200 for a raw one as well

>>

Educated collectors arn't likely to play the game either.

mrpotatoheadd · November 14, 2008 2:49PM

<< He might have said that to me and I would have felt better, the store was empty and he had time to explain. >>

The flip side of this is that there are collectors who don't want stories- they just want a price. Maybe the dealer was operating with that thought in mind.

coinpictures · November 14, 2008 3:03PM

I guess I don't understand what all the fuss and outrage is about. My local dealer doesn't pay any premium for 70 over 69, but then again he doesn't charge a premium when selling either. This is all bullion stuff in his eyes; grade is immaterial.

The dealer not offering close to what YOU paid for the coin is not a "him problem", it's a "you problem". As others have mentioned, there may be any number of reasons why he made the offer he did. There's no law that says a dealer has to offer a buy price that makes you happy. You want a higher price? You need to sell online, or to a different dealer, or at a show, or consign it, or sell to a private party, etc., etc.

Learn the strengths and weakness of your local dealer(s), and buy and sell from them accordingly. Maybe this guy isn't one to approach on slabbed material.

At any rate, from the Teletrade prices quoted, it appears that PCGS 70s command roughly triple the price that NGC 70s do. Either you overpaid for the coin, or the bottom has fallen out since you bought it. Either way, it's not the dealer's problem, especially if he has a hard time moving that type of material. My (admittedly out of date) greysheet shows bid at $460 and ask at $500 for the proof. Based on that, I can see dealers offering anywhere from $350 to $450 for the coin.

$600? No way.

julie43 · November 14, 2008 3:20PM

<< Some dealers want you to haggle. He says 200, you say 600, he says 300, you say 500, he says 400, you say SOLD! That's how it works. If you don't like it, you'll always get low balled by B&M dealers. >>

He is not like that, he won't haggle with me I have tried many times when buying and the few times I tried to sell. I have never sold anything to him though and I only will buy when the price sounds good to me but he is very "cut and dry"

darktone · November 14, 2008 9:55PM

<< 

<< $400 and $425 are the prices realized on Teletrade in the past 60 days. If a person thinks these coins are worth $600 or more, that person is indeed stupid or at least foolish.
.....
>>>>
When collectors are made to believe these coins are worth $600 I don't deem them stupid- they have been fooled that's for sure but stupid.. no I don't think so. >>

It took me two minutes to look up the recent prices on Teletrade. There were over 20 replies before anyone posted the prices. What does that tell you? No one makes anyone buy coins. Coins are "luxury" items. Want to use the adjective foolish instead of stupid, fine by me.

How many times have newbies been told to research prices before buying? How many times will they ignore that, and then come on here with some story about disappointment. I always tell the newbies to research the typical wholesale and retail prices before buying. If a person goes in with their eyes open, there will be no disappointment. Anyone reading, should understand that in the current environment, that for many gold or platinum ultramoderns the offer at many store fronts may be about melt price, no matter the price guides, or prices realized at auction.

Before crossing to PCGS, best to research the Heritage archives for pop reports to see the approximate odds of a successful raw cross. Want to play the game and spin the wheel? Go ahead, but do the research first, with the understanding that odds are typically very low for crossing NGC70s to PCGS70 when there is a significant price difference.

PCGS 70s tend to sell for more money because there are fewer of them. PCGS doesn't cross 70s submitted in holders. Busting the NGC70 out of the slab has to be done very carefully, or it will never make it back into a NGC70 slab, much less have any chance at a PCGS70. >>

Lot's of collectors have no idea teletrade even exists. There is a learning curve and some are at the beginning of the curve. For what it's worth I don't think Julie is stupid after reading her posts in this thread.

How stupid do I look?

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