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Very poor service from VCP on the set I collect
nam812
Posts: 10,555 ✭✭✭✭✭
On September 21st I posted these auctions (obviously in a different thread) that ended around September 14th, but never got added to the site.
This card ended September 14th and still not added by VCP
This card ended September 14th and still not added by VCP
This card ended September 15th and still not added by VCP
This card ended September 15th and still not added by VCP
This card ended September 15th and still not added by VCP
This card ended September 17th and still not added by VCP
I know for a fact that those were all 7 day auctions (not 30 day auctions) won with buy it nows.
BobbyVCP replied that "The reason for the delay in BIN's posting to the site is because when it gets added to eBay there is an ending time stamp. Our system records this time and when it occurs it gets checked and verified as a sale then posts to the site. So for example if it is a 9 day auction and sells on the 2nd day it will be another 7 days before it posts."
Well here it is October 2nd, almost 3 weeks since those auctions ended, and NONE of those auctions have been added to the site yet.
Maybe he will just say: "Oooops, sorry for all that inaccurate data? I hope you didn't overpay for any cards because VCP is sound asleep."
This is only one set that I've targeted because I collect it, so just imagine what must be going on with buy it nows in the hundreds and hundreds (possibly thousands) of other sets. Let's see how BobbyVCP tries double talk all of us about this.
This card ended September 14th and still not added by VCP
This card ended September 14th and still not added by VCP
This card ended September 15th and still not added by VCP
This card ended September 15th and still not added by VCP
This card ended September 15th and still not added by VCP
This card ended September 17th and still not added by VCP
I know for a fact that those were all 7 day auctions (not 30 day auctions) won with buy it nows.
BobbyVCP replied that "The reason for the delay in BIN's posting to the site is because when it gets added to eBay there is an ending time stamp. Our system records this time and when it occurs it gets checked and verified as a sale then posts to the site. So for example if it is a 9 day auction and sells on the 2nd day it will be another 7 days before it posts."
Well here it is October 2nd, almost 3 weeks since those auctions ended, and NONE of those auctions have been added to the site yet.
Maybe he will just say: "Oooops, sorry for all that inaccurate data? I hope you didn't overpay for any cards because VCP is sound asleep."
This is only one set that I've targeted because I collect it, so just imagine what must be going on with buy it nows in the hundreds and hundreds (possibly thousands) of other sets. Let's see how BobbyVCP tries double talk all of us about this.
0
Comments
<< <i>I have to ask what might be a dumb question. Admittedly, I haven't done much research on what the VCP does, but couldn't someone get data like that by performing Ebay completed item searches? >>
Here's what VCP does according to the VCP website:
"Get up to the minute values for every card made from 1867 to 1959 that is graded by SGC, PSA, GAI and BVG. Access over one hundred thousand auction records including eBay in our database with several hundred auctions being posted daily. While viewing the card profile that you are looking for you will see all the latest auction prices for that card broken down by grader and grade in a grid. Click on the price and all the auctions in our database (25 latest auctions) will be displayed in a list with the most current on top. "
Bottom line: yes, a person could obtain the same results by searching completed eBay auctions, and browsing the
web for auction house results.
PoppaJ
MULLINS5,1966CUDA,nam812,nightcrawler,OAKESY25,PowderedH2O,relaxed,RonBurgundy,samsgirl214,shagrotn77,swartz1,slantycouch,Statman,Wabittwax
<< <i>At $179 per year, some of those cracks should be filling with gold plated cement pretty soon >>
True, But the only cracks getting filled are the customers.
As stated before on BIN auctions they post when the time stamp ends and they are all from the same seller Griffins and they are all 30 day listings in the new eBay deal. Here is all the others he still has listed
Griffins
They are all listed for 30 days, so please stop it already you are starting to look real bad.
<< <i>Nam,
As stated before on BIN auctions they post when the time stamp ends and they are all from the same seller Griffins and they are all 30 day listings in the new eBay deal. Here is all the others he still has listed
Griffins
They are all listed for 30 days, so please stop it already you are starting to look real bad. >>
Good try, but you have now supported my case with your link Bobby. It shows that Anthony (griffins) started all the current 30 day fixed price listings about 4 and 5 days ago since there are 25 and 26 days remaining on each listing. The auctions I showed in my original post that VCP totally missed were all started around Seprtember 14th (give or take a day) in 7 day auction format. Then, Anthony re-listed everything that didnt sell in the 7 day auctions in his store for 30 day fixed listings, but only after all the 7 day auctions expired. I know VCP misses tons of data like this, but surely I thought everyone at VCP could read.
So now VCP puts a lying spin on their mistakes?
If Anthony reads this Im sure he can confirm that his first wave of T218's (the ones listed on or about Sept 14th) were listed as 7 day auctions (for the better exposure no doubt). Next spin will be Bobby apologizing and telling us he will fire the time stamp guy.
Actually, Nick looks just fine. VCP, on the other hand, does not especially with the way you come on here complaining about Nick.
Looking for Charlie (Charley) Maxwell cards.
Looking for Charlie (Charley) Maxwell cards.
So Nick does not look bad here. In fact, Nick only looks bad when he looks in the mirror.
Bobby, with the extra money from the subscribers who don't leave you, maybe VCP should start advertising with PSA. You would be 100% protected from any questions, comments or concerns about VCP on this message board.
clearly a customer you dont need!
<< <i>bobby, maybe you should cut off NAM from your service anyway...he gives away info for free and costs you subscribers in one hand, and he makes posts complaining about the service on the other hand....
clearly a customer you dont need! >>
They probably need as many as they can keep these days.
<< <i>bobby, maybe you should cut off NAM from your service anyway...he gives away info for free and costs you subscribers in one hand, and he makes posts complaining about the service on the other hand....
clearly a customer you dont need! >>
You don't read enough threads Gary. My subscription ends with them in approximately 2 weeks. Then they can have only customers like you that have their head in the sand and take everything they say as gospel.
Raw: Tony Gonzalez (low #'d cards, and especially 1/1's) and Steve Young.
All those listings were indeed 7 day listings. When the ones that didn't sell ended I relisted them again for another 7 days. When those ended I put them in my ebay store.
None of the cards listed in my ebay store as 30 day listings have sold as of this morning. Every sale I've made in the last month has been via 7 day regular listings on ebay.
Always looking for Topps Salesman Samples, pre '51 unopened packs, E90-2, E91a, N690 Kalamazoo Bats, and T204 Square Frame Ramly's
Now, I also had someone shoot me some VCP prices about two weeks ago and they listed the last 5 sales at $14.50, $32, $56, $31, $50 ... with an average sell price of $37
Can someone check that VCP info for me please, because I doubt that 5 new PSA 9's have sold in the last 2 weeks for that low of a price to have dragged this card down to that price level?
As for the VCP bashing ... Are you guys mad at the price increase, or the overall service you get for the price, or is it something that they said they do ... that you're finding out they don't do? Or something else altogether? I'm just trying to catch up on all the info without having to read all the other threads and posts.
Thanks!
Mike
12/19/07 eBay $14.50
9/14/07 eBay $32.00
8/29/07 eBay $56.00
6/10/07 eBay $31.00
12/25/06 eBay $49.99
11/19/06 eBay $56.00
Chris
My small collection
Want List:
'61 Topps Roy Campanella in PSA 5-7
Cardinal T206 cards
Adam Wainwright GU Jersey
These numbers are all based off the last 12 months of sales. If you see only a single line in a slot then that means there was only a single sale or one has not sold in the past year and that price is for the last sold.
Now our averaging is being done a little different, it is based off up to the last 1o sales within the year. Rules are the following.
1-4 Sales: Is a straight average of the 4.
5-9 Sales: The high and low sales are omitted and the balance is averaged out.
10 Sales: The 2 high and 2 low sales are omitted and the balance is averaged out.
<< <i>In regards to the BIN's not showing up I have been told that it is not working on the site.......... >>
Finally, the truth. Sorry if it seemed like I was on a witch hunt against you Bobby, but with the excessive fee increase now in place, I wanted the members here that use your service (most of which I consider friends) to have as much info as possible to use in making their decision to stay with VCP or not. I couldn't stand idly by and let them believe your data, when I saw it to be inaccurate.
I honestly wish you make a billion dollars, but unfortunately none of it will be coming from me after these next two weeks are up. Good luck in getting all these buy it now problems with your site fixed, and I hope all the buy it now data you've missed isnt gone forever.
PS - Was this buy it now problem happening in every set that you track?
<< <i> Let's see how BobbyVCP tries double talk all of us about this. >>
easy, he'll raise the cost!
<< <i>
<< <i>In regards to the BIN's not showing up I have been told that it is not working on the site.......... >>
Finally, the truth. Sorry if it seemed like I was on a witch hunt against you Bobby, but with the excessive fee increase now in place, I wanted the members here that use your service (most of which I consider friends) to have as much info as possible to use in making their decision to stay with VCP or not. I couldn't stand idly by and let them believe your data, when I saw it to be inaccurate.
I honestly wish you make a billion dollars, but unfortunately none of it will be coming from me after these next two weeks are up. Good luck in getting all these buy it now problems with your site fixed, and I hope all the buy it now data you've missed isnt gone forever.
PS - Was this buy it now problem happening in every set that you track? >>
MULLINS5,1966CUDA,nam812,nightcrawler,OAKESY25,PowderedH2O,relaxed,RonBurgundy,samsgirl214,shagrotn77,swartz1,slantycouch,Statman,Wabittwax
Thanks for responding with that explanation earlier, but I have to say I've thought about it for awhile, and I disagree with your companies logic of averaging out prices like that.
The reason there hasn't been a sale of that card in a PSA 9 in last year or so ... is because it's one of the more semi-lower pops in the set (pop 11 with no 10's ever graded). That's why it's a $40 card as opposed to a $14 card, as all the previous prices support. I can almost guarantee you that the one card that sold in the past year for $14 was either a card that had a qualifier (OC) on it that was not listed in the auction heading, or it was sold by a seller that had a lousy scan / lousy feedback / listed in an incorrect category / or a seller that charged a ton for shipping, etc.
Even if there were no "outside issues" with that $14 card, we all know that some listings just fly under the radar occasionally and get bottom fed. Either way, YOU deciding to drop the four other larger prices out of the equation has sucked almost 65% of the value out of that card for me and every other collector that wants to buy or sell it. And I honestly don't think your "new math rules" should hold that kind of power over the pricing of cards in our hobby. Quite frankly, I think it's kind of dangerous for all of our wallets.
What happens if those knuckleheads in the newspaper that keep trying to pass off that bogus Wagner card decide to eBay it next week and it only sells for $100 ..... and no other Wagner's have sold in the past year. Is a Wagner now only worth $100? I know that's kind of a silly extreme example because that cards never going to get graded, but I can also think of a bunch of rare graded cards that only show up once every few years, and their prices can be extremely volatile. The way you have it set up now, those cards could start to roller coaster in average price to the tune of thousands of dollars a year. I realize that market prices change over time but cards have ALWAYS been worth exactly what someone was willing to pay for them .... not just what the last person paid for them, in the past year.
I think it's a disservice, and just plain wrong, for your company to sell memberships to a price averaging service that doesn't average the prices correctly? BTW, I'm not trying to join the VCP bashing club by saying that ... as a matter of fact I really like the basic idea of your service and I give you "major props" for coming onto the message boards and answering questions and dealing with problems. You've started a great new service that will hopefully become the standard in the industry someday. I just think you have some gray area bugs to work out first, and getting collectors honest opinions is probably the best way to do that.
I noticed another similar problem recently when I was trying to sell some common 1970's PSA 9's. There's been a recent barrage of eBay sellers that were playing the BIN for .99¢ game and adding in $7 for shipping for those cards. Because your company only captures the final price, it makes all of the average prices look like they should be $1 .. when in reality the cards should be selling for about $7 or $8. Once again your pricing guidelines basically sucked 87% of the value out of those cards. Is there any way for your company to capture shipping prices and add them in also? It doesn't matter much for the more expensive cards, but it sure makes a huge difference in the $25 and below market.
I realize that sometimes we need to dig around in the past auctions to figure out why some of your averages are what they are ... but whether you like it or not, people are wanting to buy and sell cards based on VCP average. I'm not sure what you can and cannot realistically do to fix those types of problems, but I think it's crucial that you try to come up with something to acknowledge them so people have 100% faith in saying ..... "I'll buy those cards for VCP!" .... without having to go check your site and make sure the pricing makes sense first.
Good luck with everything, and thanks again for addressing these issues out in the open like this.
Mike
Our old grid would only show the last card sold, so I thought by adding this new system was an upgrade to the old way of doing things. In your scenario I find it hard to believe that a high grade PSA 9 card would fly under the radar with so many registry people that would need it for an upgrade, but it can happen. So in your opinion if that card sold 2 years ago for $45, then again a year later for $25. Now a another sells this week for $14, what should the value be? Right now the market says it is only worth $14, correct?(BTW..the Codgil did not have a qualifier and had 10 bids) We have a thin line that is hard to go when dealing with sales. You have the rare cards that sell once in a blue moon and you have ones that sell practically everyday. I thought the year idea was good, but you seem to disagree, what do you think it should be?
I guess a solution could be we take the time element out of the equation completely and base it off the number of sales no matter when it happened. Then in the case of Codgil we are saying it is worth about $35.00 but in auction it just sold for $14.50 with 10 bids and no qualifier. To me that is what it is worth right now $14.50 and not $35.00
Shipping is another story and I was under the assumption that eBay was putting an end to excessive shipping simple because they do not make any money from it. Now I believe it has to be listed so we are going to look into capturing this information for you as well going forward. It won't be listed in with the total value of he card but as a seperate column in the price sheet page.
Thanks again for responding.
In your scenario ... of a card selling 2 years ago for $45, then a year ago for $25, then recently for $14 ... I'd have to agree that the market value for that card has come down and should probably be closer to $14 .... but shouldn't some credence be given to it's prior selling prices too? Especially if it's a card that is so rare that it only comes up for sale once every year.
Although, your scenario wasn't really the same case as with that Cogdill card. The card isn't super rare by any means, but the price wasn't on a steady decline either. The price had gone from $50 to $31 to $56 to $32 and then almost a year ago the one single low auction price of $14.50 tanked the average price all the way down to $14.50 because the rest of the prices fell just outside of that 1 year time frame you decided on. I don't profess to have the perfect answer for what time frame you should use ... I just know I lost $22 because of your service ... so I want you to think about it some more! ;-)
I've also had to nearly strangle a couple of collectors when they wanted to offer me .99¢ for 1970's PSA 9 cards because "that is what average VCP is" on them (because of those hidden $8 ship fees) .... so I'd also like you to think about the next poor shlub that I do end up strangling over your average price indicators. You could be saving a life! lol
Do you think there would be a negative backlash from customers if you did add in the eBay shipping costs to all prices? Since eBay is cutting down on excess shipping charges that should limit the ship charges to maybe $5 or $6 per card, but there will always be sellers that offer free shipping and some that will charge the max $6 shipping and sell thier cards for .99¢. That's still a huge price percentage swing on the $1 to $20 cards.
I'm not sure where your "separate column on the price sheet page" is located at, (where you plan on listing the ship costs), but I'd imagine if it means anyone has to make an extra mouse movements to see it, it will become mostly unused and won't solve the problem.
Like I said earlier, I don't have all the answers to my questions .... and I'm sure there's all kinds of scenarios for and against price averaging time frames, and shipping costs being added in or not added in, but like they say .... that's why you make the big bucks. You get to make those decisions. I just hope you keep buyers / sellers / collectors and "the good of the hobby" in mind while you're tweeking everything. Because if we go back to your first scenario of that rare card falling in price every year, because of the one year averaging time frame, it sure looks like that card could be worthless in 2 more years.
Mike
First of all it was not VCP that killed the price of the Codgill card before the auction ended anyone of those 10 bidders could of seen the last sale was for $35.00, the winning bidder was the one that now dictates the value of that card in that grade.
I still think the value of a card is the most recent sales and it really should not effect the rare cards that do not sell very often. For example the Wagner in a SGC 10 or PSA 1 was selling 3 years ago for about $100K and is now going for closer to $225K in that scenario the way you would want it the value would only increase to $162.5K and that would be wrong.
So in that case the one year deal is more accurate in accessing value of cards.
<< <i>At $179 per year, some of those cracks should be filling with gold plated cement pretty soon >>
Thats like a vintage mid grade mantle card PER YEAR....forget it!
<< <i>I'm glad I cancelled the service. If I had known this stuff was going on when I was a paying customer, I would have cancelled a long time ago. Instead, I stuck around until the thoughtless price hike.
Bobby, with the extra money from the subscribers who don't leave you, maybe VCP should start advertising with PSA. You would be 100% protected from any questions, comments or concerns about VCP on this message board. >>
There's a drive deep to left...get up...get up...get outta here...gone...a home run for Gumby Fan!!!
<< <i>In general, doesn't one have a pretty decent idea what the going rate is for any card they purchase? >>
and how do you know what the going rate is? If you track every auction of that card, then you know it and dont need VCP. If you don't, then VCP gives you that information (theoretically). If your going rate is based on SMR, Beckett or some price guide that provides prices that are calculated from a magic hat, good luck with your purchase...especially if you are buying a pre war card.
<< <i>
<< <i>In general, doesn't one have a pretty decent idea what the going rate is for any card they purchase? >>
and how do you know what the going rate is? If you track every auction of that card, then you know it and dont need VCP. If you don't, then VCP gives you that information (theoretically). If your going rate is based on SMR, Beckett or some price guide that provides prices that are calculated from a magic hat, good luck with your purchase...especially if you are buying a pre war card. >>
Again, I guess I need an example. I understand the point to some extent, but unless there is shilling or 2 clueless bidders on the same card, the going rate is, generally speaking, the going rate. Either the card sells often enough that the going rate can be determined from previous auctions, or the card rarely sells, in which case you're going to have to be prepared to pay what it takes or wait a long time for the card to come around again. If VCP shows a card that I desperately want selling for $1000 and the card comes to market once a year and I bid $1200 and win because I don't have VCP and another guy bids $1000 and loses because he has VCP, am I really the loser in this scenario? Besides, we all know all PSA 5's, for example, are not created equal, so what good does it do to know the PSA 5 average price?
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>In general, doesn't one have a pretty decent idea what the going rate is for any card they purchase? >>
and how do you know what the going rate is? If you track every auction of that card, then you know it and dont need VCP. If you don't, then VCP gives you that information (theoretically). If your going rate is based on SMR, Beckett or some price guide that provides prices that are calculated from a magic hat, good luck with your purchase...especially if you are buying a pre war card. >>
Again, I guess I need an example. I understand the point to some extent, but unless there is shilling or 2 clueless bidders on the same card, the going rate is, generally speaking, the going rate. Either the card sells often enough that the going rate can be determined from previous auctions, or the card rarely sells, in which case you're going to have to be prepared to pay what it takes or wait a long time for the card to come around again. If VCP shows a card that I desperately want selling for $1000 and the card comes to market once a year and I bid $1200 and win because I don't have VCP and another guy bids $1000 and loses because he has VCP, am I really the loser in this scenario? Besides, we all know all PSA 5's, for example, are not created equal, so what good does it do to know the PSA 5 average price? >>
I understand what your saying and I agree.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>In general, doesn't one have a pretty decent idea what the going rate is for any card they purchase? >>
and how do you know what the going rate is? If you track every auction of that card, then you know it and dont need VCP. If you don't, then VCP gives you that information (theoretically). If your going rate is based on SMR, Beckett or some price guide that provides prices that are calculated from a magic hat, good luck with your purchase...especially if you are buying a pre war card. >>
Again, I guess I need an example. I understand the point to some extent, but unless there is shilling or 2 clueless bidders on the same card, the going rate is, generally speaking, the going rate. Either the card sells often enough that the going rate can be determined from previous auctions, or the card rarely sells, in which case you're going to have to be prepared to pay what it takes or wait a long time for the card to come around again. If VCP shows a card that I desperately want selling for $1000 and the card comes to market once a year and I bid $1200 and win because I don't have VCP and another guy bids $1000 and loses because he has VCP, am I really the loser in this scenario? Besides, we all know all PSA 5's, for example, are not created equal, so what good does it do to know the PSA 5 average price? >>
This is an excellent point; in theory any consumer should put in a maximum bid on a card that equals the price at which he would be indifferent about the outcome of the auction. If we assume rational consumer behavior then this axiom could be used (and in fact IS used in much microeconomic theory) as the basis for any number of very interesting assessments.
So, Tom, what you're assuming is that consumer behavior is rational. Yet the very fact that VCP is utilized by collectors (not dealers) is a complete slap in face to almost every consumer model that has ever been constructed by a traditional economist, at least in so far as the reason for subscribing is to know what the market price is for cards that you intend to purchase in the future. For dealers, however, this service could be of substantial use, since you would have a much better idea of where you should set your 'buy prices' for various cards if you have instant access to the market price for those same cards once they are slabbed.
"Molon Labe"
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>In general, doesn't one have a pretty decent idea what the going rate is for any card they purchase? >>
and how do you know what the going rate is? If you track every auction of that card, then you know it and dont need VCP. If you don't, then VCP gives you that information (theoretically). If your going rate is based on SMR, Beckett or some price guide that provides prices that are calculated from a magic hat, good luck with your purchase...especially if you are buying a pre war card. >>
Again, I guess I need an example. I understand the point to some extent, but unless there is shilling or 2 clueless bidders on the same card, the going rate is, generally speaking, the going rate. Either the card sells often enough that the going rate can be determined from previous auctions, or the card rarely sells, in which case you're going to have to be prepared to pay what it takes or wait a long time for the card to come around again. If VCP shows a card that I desperately want selling for $1000 and the card comes to market once a year and I bid $1200 and win because I don't have VCP and another guy bids $1000 and loses because he has VCP, am I really the loser in this scenario? Besides, we all know all PSA 5's, for example, are not created equal, so what good does it do to know the PSA 5 average price? >>
I was close to posting the same argument before you posted this, but decided I was too lazy first
Looking for 1970 MLB Photostamps
- uncut
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<< <i>Yet the very fact that VCP is utilized by collectors (not dealers) >>
Who said dealers don't use the service. I have seen Levi, Mastro logged into VCP.
IMO VCP gives information and if used can be beneficial.
As for the question as to all PSA 5's are not created equal, I was under the impression VCP showed
a picture of the cards?
I personally do not use the service as I have an idea as to what I collect should go for.
I also know, or hope I know what I sell should go for too.
Steve