<< <i>"The use of shill bids in on-line auctions illegally drives up prices and defrauds consumers," said Eliot Spitzer, the State Attorney General. >>
GREAT info. Don't pick on poor Frank though. He's from (and apparently got his law degree in) Texas and sounds like a defense attorney that a caught shiller would hire.
Seriously though. This is an issue the courts themselves are divided on depending on the specifics of each case. Obviously consignors bidding on their own lots on Teletrade or Heritage face little chance of prosecution while those on the other end of the spectrum just might.
I chuckle whenever this topic comes up in this forum. Why, because there are members here who sell consigned coins on ebay and allow the owners to bid. A few years back some nice coins were on ebay that came from a PCGS registry set and I seriously wanted a couple of them. As the auction came close to conclusion the owner started bidding on them. At that point I said nothing doing and refused to bid. This is just one example but I am sure there are others.
Secondly tossing out a bid for a forum friend with no expectation of the coin selling at that price could be considered a shill bid or not? It seems to be an acceptable practice to mention the bid here knowing that increasing the bid and thereby creating more traffic, i.e. bids generally attracts other bidders to the coin.
I don't see shill bidding as anything more than a different way of setting a reserve. The owner stops bidding when the coin meets his reserve. If he gets greedy and keeps bidding, he doesn't sell his coin and still winds up paying all the auction fees.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>I don't see shill bidding as anything more than a different way of setting a reserve. The owner stops bidding when the coin meets his reserve. If he gets greedy and keeps bidding, he doesn't sell his coin and still winds up paying all the auction fees. >>
Though I despise shilling, I suppose one could view it as bargaining with the seller in the blind. We shouldn't bid more than we would agree to pay for a coin, given the available information/images, anyway. Whether you have a competing bidder or a seller that ratchets you up because he/she demands you latest offer still is too low, may not matter all that much.
There are at least 4 strategies people employ to make ethical decisions.
1 - Rights and Duties - right is right, no matter who it hurts. 2 - Relativism - what does the least harm and the most good? 3 - Idealistism - how will my decision make me feel about me? 4 - Machiavellianism - we must be realists, and accept things as they are. We must learn to prosper based on the real rules, rather than the stated ones.
Your decision will be based on your personal ideology. Good luck!
(the 5th is usually the golden rule.)
Developing theory is what we are meant to do as academic researchers and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
<< <i>Read about it here what happens if your caught and prosecuted >>
that's sure a stretch to claim that someone violating an ebay policy is guilty of restraint of trade. Even dumber to plead guilty , in which case the government gets to relocate your residence to a "for profit" prison without a jury of your peers judging you. >>
Frank, Please feel free to explain to all of us exactly what a "shill" is since the term is mentioned in various state's statutes. While individual states have different statutes and applications, they all use the same definitions.
<< <i>I came across a situation where by accident found out a seller on ebay appears to be using a second ebay account to bid there own auctions >>
Objection: "How did this discussion get so far afield from the originalquestion? eBay has a rule against shill bidding, and that's that. All the legal stuff I've read here is irrelevant, your Honor."
"Objection sustained."
Good deals with: goldman86 mkman123 Wingsrule wondercoin segoja Tccuga OKCC LindeDad and others.
I must take six hours of continuing education each year on auction law, (and ebay was specifically discussed...they like to apply auction laws when it benefits them, and then claim auction laws DO NOT APPLY to their 'unique business model" when it involves a cost.) I also must pass a written test at the state capital in Austin conducted by the Texas department of licensing and regulation. I scored 100%. I know what the law is in Texas (most other states also follow a "model law" with few changes) and Consignors have the right under the law to bid on their own items in standard auctions. An AUCTIONEER cannot place fake shill bids simply to increase his commission...but bids from the owner are acceptable and legal., and do not "artificially inflate the price" any more than a reserve.
I am offended at your condesending remarks that auctioneers from the South are just too stupid to understand the law.
I lived in and did business in the SE for years, and found folks no more/less stupid there than anywhere else in America. My SE reference was to "tradition and practice," NOT mental acumen. Red Herring?
Anyone who cannot see the difference between the lawful actions recited in Texas statutes AND a CRIMINAL bidding on his own merch without intention or prospective obligation to purchase, is, charitably put, simply in the fog of fraud-centric denial.
"...An AUCTIONEER cannot place fake shill bids simply to increase his commission...but bids from the owner are acceptable and legal.,...."
IF a "reserve price" is nothing more than "the owner's bid," nobody should have a problem with EBAY's scheme. Yet, EBAY sellers hate reserves; they cost money and they usually limit bid traffic. It is to the corrupt seller's clear advantage to waive reserves and shill; the practice is very likely epidemic, and EBAY can do little to stop it.
In a traditional auction - goverened by the typical statutes cited by frankcoins - such a seller is at risk of paying money when he bids. No such risk is attendant in a shilled EBAY auction. The consumer, who thinks he is playing in a fair game is the ONLY party at risk.....and, he will always lose.
MANY experienced/licensed auctioneers refuse to offer consigned merch on EBAY. They claim they would be in violation of their fiduciary duty to their consignor to list on EBAY. What many really mean is that if they cannot lie, cheat and steal - as they wrongfully interpret their states' statutes to permit - they don't want to play.
Folks Who Bite Get Bitten. Folks Who Don't Bite Get Eaten.
<< <i>Read about it here what happens if your caught and prosecuted >>
that's sure a stretch to claim that someone violating an ebay policy is guilty of restraint of trade. Even dumber to plead guilty , in which case the government gets to relocate your residence to a "for profit" prison without a jury of your peers judging you. >>
Frank, Please feel free to explain to all of us exactly what a "shill" is since the term is mentioned in various state's statutes. While individual states have different statutes and applications, they all use the same definitions. >>
Please, please, post links to these statutes. Otherwise what you are stating simply becomes hearsay. Additionally, since shilling is a term used to defraud folks in gambling, be sure what you post applies to auction bidding otherwise its unimportant.
I decided to change calling the bathroom the John and renamed it the Jim. I feel so much better saying I went to the Jim this morning.
That anybody can think the practice is "OK," is astonishing.
I agree. After seeing the ferocity with which some forum members complain about EBAY sellers who won't combine shipping on two $3 postage auctions...I am amazed at the luke warm condemnation of this type of conduct. It is a form of theft, plain and simple. If the evidence is firm, it should be reported without hesitation, and if the OP isn't comfortable making the report for fear it won't be confidential, he should provide the particulars to one of us who does have that concern.
This kind of crap hurts us all, more importantly, it hurts the hobby, and anybody interested in bettering the marketplace we operate in should have a very firm and fast response to this sort of crap.
I think shill bidding is unethical.... and hurts legitimate bidders. We should expose this practice wherever we find it.... and then, as a group, boycott the seller and inform uninformed bidders of the nefarious practice employed by the seller. Cheers, RickO
Texas statutes, from which Administractive Rules take their authority, well recognize that the right of Aunt Betsy to bid on her late sister's coin collection at auction is a matter for mere transparency to handle.
If Betsy is the high-bidder, she will pay.
Would anybody like to bid on my EBAY auction, if transparency resolved:
"Please note that I will be bidding on my own items, and I may have my friend/neighbor bid, too. If I or my friend/neighbor are the high-bidder, we will NOT purchase the item, and I will notify the next highest bidder that he has won the item and should send payment forthwith."
Rhetorical ???
..... .............
Because Texas and every other state that licenses auctioneers understands that consumer confidence - and equity - requires transparency in auction commerce, their statutes, regs and rules deal with almost any eventuality.
///////// ////////////
Administrative Rules
The Texas Commission of Licensing and Regulation (“Commission”)......
...adopts amendments to existing rules at 16 Texas Administrative Code (“TAC”), Chapter 67, §§67.21, 67.22, 67.25, 67.40, 67.65, 67.80, and 67.94; new rule §§67.23, 67.24, and 67.72; and the repeal of §§67.41, 67.42, 67.60, 67.81-67.83, 67.90, and 67.100-67.102 regarding the auctioneers program without changes from the proposal. The Commission also adopts amendments to existing rule §§67.10, 67.20, and 67.70 and new rule §67.71 with changes from the rules as proposed.
The adopted amendments, new rules, and repeals update statutory references and bring rule requirements more in line with state and federal law.
(d) A licensee may not knowingly use, or permit the use of, false bidders, cappers, or shills at any auction.
(e) Before beginning an auction, a licensee must announce, give notice, display notice and/or disclose:
(1) that the auctioneer conducting the sale is licensed by the department;
(2) the terms and conditions of the sale including whether a buyer’s premium will be assessed; and
(3) if the owner, consignor, or agent thereof has reserved the right to bid.
(f) If an auctioneer advertises an auction as "absolute" or "without reserve", no lots included may have a minimum bid. Advertising may include the wording, "many lots are without reserve"; however, the auction may not be titled, headed or called an "absolute" or "without reserve" auction unless all lots meet that criteria.
(g) All auctioneers shall notify consumers and service recipients of the name, mailing address, and telephone number of the department for purposes of directing complaints to the department. The licensees may use a sticker or rubber stamp to convey the required information. The notification shall be included on any seller or consignor contract and on at least one of the following:
(1) a sign prominently displayed at the place of the auction;
(2) bills of sale or receipt to be given to buyers; or
(3) on bidder cards.
(h) An auctioneer who intends to charge a buyer's premium at an auction must state this condition and the amount of the buyer's premium in all advertising for the auction.
(i) Any statement in an advertisement for an auction that alters the meaning of another statement in the advertisement must be in a type font at least as large as the type font of the statement it alters.
////////////////////
The Texas "Green Book" contains almost 1700 pages that deal with every element of auctions. The Texas statutes are just and correct and NOT one dot or title therein sanctions or abides the kind of SHILL BIDDING that is contemplated by those folks who think "EBAY's rules are an anomaly to the auction business."
Folks Who Bite Get Bitten. Folks Who Don't Bite Get Eaten.
<< <i>I think shill bidding is unethical.... and hurts legitimate bidders. We should expose this practice wherever we find it.... and then, as a group, boycott the seller and inform uninformed bidders of the nefarious practice employed by the seller. Cheers, RickO >>
<< <i>I chuckle whenever this topic comes up in this forum. Why, because there are members here who sell consigned coins on ebay and allow the owners to bid. >>
What a great idea! True shilling but does eBay even monitor this or is it totally between the consignor and the consignee? And ......... at what point does this process get mutated into a "you bid on mine and I'll bid on your's" scenario vs an "I sell mine and my other eBay id bids on mine" scenario?
<< <i>Secondly tossing out a bid for a forum friend with no expectation of the coin selling at that price could be considered a shill bid or not? It seems to be an acceptable practice to mention the bid here knowing that increasing the bid and thereby creating more traffic, i.e. bids generally attracts other bidders to the coin. >>
I do not think this falls under the definition of shill bidding according to eBay even though the practice is mentioned under the shill bidding help page. It is mentioned with regard to having "a level of access to item information which is not available to the general Community" which to me is simply bunk!
Besides, at what point does it "artificially increase the price" especially if the item being sold is not 'attracting' bidders?
Shill bidding on eBay is often viewed on these forums in the same light as the "old, fat coin dealer that regularly rips off older folks". In other words, without much thought but with a lot of malice based upon incomplete information. The 'crowd' mentality so to speak.
Often times, eBay states that a 'reserve' should be placed on items which have an expected return value. The truth is, many times reserves chase bidders away and of course eBay encourages it because 'reserves' cost the seller additional money in eBay fee's.
The entire premise behind shill bidding and 'artificially increasing an items price' revolves around the auctioning of fake or counterfeit items which are illegal. I seriously do not think that a seller bidding on his own item constitutes shill bidding (as do many auction venues) except in the eyes of eBay.
I decided to change calling the bathroom the John and renamed it the Jim. I feel so much better saying I went to the Jim this morning.
The Texas Commission of Licensing and Regulation (“Commission”)......
...adopts amendments to existing rules at 16 Texas Administrative Code (“TAC”), Chapter 67, §§67.21, 67.22, 67.25, 67.40, 67.65, 67.80, and 67.94; new rule §§67.23, 67.24, and 67.72; and the repeal of §§67.41, 67.42, 67.60, 67.81-67.83, 67.90, and 67.100-67.102 regarding the auctioneers program without changes from the proposal. The Commission also adopts amendments to existing rule §§67.10, 67.20, and 67.70 and new rule §67.71 with changes from the rules as proposed.
The adopted amendments, new rules, and repeals update statutory references and bring rule requirements more in line with state and federal law.
(d) A licensee may not knowingly use, or permit the use of, false bidders, cappers, or shills at any auction.
(e) Before beginning an auction, a licensee must announce, give notice, display notice and/or disclose:
(1) that the auctioneer conducting the sale is licensed by the department;
(2) the terms and conditions of the sale including whether a buyer’s premium will be assessed; and
(3) if the owner, consignor, or agent thereof has reserved the right to bid.
(f) If an auctioneer advertises an auction as "absolute" or "without reserve", no lots included may have a minimum bid. Advertising may include the wording, "many lots are without reserve"; however, the auction may not be titled, headed or called an "absolute" or "without reserve" auction unless all lots meet that criteria.
(g) All auctioneers shall notify consumers and service recipients of the name, mailing address, and telephone number of the department for purposes of directing complaints to the department. The licensees may use a sticker or rubber stamp to convey the required information. The notification shall be included on any seller or consignor contract and on at least one of the following:
(1) a sign prominently displayed at the place of the auction;
(2) bills of sale or receipt to be given to buyers; or
(3) on bidder cards.
(h) An auctioneer who intends to charge a buyer's premium at an auction must state this condition and the amount of the buyer's premium in all advertising for the auction.
(i) Any statement in an advertisement for an auction that alters the meaning of another statement in the advertisement must be in a type font at least as large as the type font of the statement it alters.
<< <i>
Thank you.
I decided to change calling the bathroom the John and renamed it the Jim. I feel so much better saying I went to the Jim this morning.
"...I seriously do not think that a seller bidding on his own item constitutes shill bidding (as do many auction venues) except in the eyes of eBay. ..."
//////////////////////////////////////////
Where state statutes permit such bidding, those statutes require DISCLOSURE by the third-party auctioneer.
There is usually NO such "third-party" in an EBAY auction. Just a CRIMINAL bidding-up his own merch in an attempt to generate excitement and higher prices. The end game is to STEAL MONEY.
The FACT is that if EBAY allowed folks to bid on their own coins, AND required disclosure of same, NOBODY would bid on anything.
Folks Who Bite Get Bitten. Folks Who Don't Bite Get Eaten.
Great info for those that choose to not condemn the practice or choose to argue that the differences cited in the different (some allowable) forms are merely negligble.
<< <i>"...I seriously do not think that a seller bidding on his own item constitutes shill bidding (as do many auction venues) except in the eyes of eBay. ..."
//////////////////////////////////////////
Where state statutes permit such bidding, those statutes require DISCLOSURE by the third-party auctioneer.
There is usually NO such "third-party" in an EBAY auction. Just a CRIMINAL bidding-up his own merch in an attempt to generate excitement and higher prices. The end game is to STEAL MONEY.
The FACT is that if EBAY allowed folks to bid on their own coins, AND required disclosure of same, NOBODY would bid on anything. >>
//////////////////////////////////////////////
Which is why eBay has this rule. Right?
I decided to change calling the bathroom the John and renamed it the Jim. I feel so much better saying I went to the Jim this morning.
And, because NOT having the rule would embrace the concept that sellers could freely engage in acts of mail-fraud and wire-fraud using EBAY as the vehicle.
ALL should remember, that any seller on EBAY, for whatever reason, is fully permitted to invite friends/neighbors/relatives/spouses/etc. to BUY such sellers' items. All the seller need do is list his item as a BIN w/o an auction feature.
IF a seller using shills was acting in good faith, he would simply list the item as a BIN. BUT, we all KNOW he is NOT acting in good faith; he is a CROOK; and, his shills NEVER have any intention of "buying" anything. They are simply abetting THEFT and FRAUD.
Folks Who Bite Get Bitten. Folks Who Don't Bite Get Eaten.
"IF a seller using shills was acting in good faith, he would simply list the item as a BIN. BUT, we all KNOW he is NOT acting in good faith; he is a CROOK; and, his shills NEVER have any intention of "buying" anything. They are simply abetting THEFT and FRAUD."
"Would you care to list the states that do not permit owners to bid on their own items at a public auction?"
no, I'd rather you stuck to commenting on the venue in question, "...found out a seller on ebay appears to be using a second ebay account to bid there own auctions..."
It's been painfully obvious for months that you have a terrible problem trying to sell on eBay. Do you really think the State of Texas is coming to your rescue?
The Texas "Green Book" contains almost 1700 pages that deal with every element of auctions. The Texas statutes are just and correct and NOT one dot or title therein sanctions or abides the kind of SHILL BIDDING that is contemplated by those folks who think "EBAY's rules are an anomaly to the auction business." >>
You apparently have a reading comprehension problem. As I said, an auctioneer cannot allow shill bidding simply to raise the price and thus his commission. Owner bids are NOT considered shill bidding... except on ebay...they are LEGITIMATE and LEGAL. The OP complained of an owner bidding on his own items on ebay. Only ebay bans this practice generally, thus they are an anomaly to the auction business.
Not one person has given an example of how a bidder is harmed by the owner placing a bid on their own items any moreso than if there was a reserve in the same amount.
On most online auctions, you place a bid and will be told that you were overbid. Were you overbid by a reserve or by a bid placed by the owner? It doesn't matter. In auction law a bid by the owner and a reserve are considered the same thing.
The reason professional auctioneers (including myself) seldom place consigned items on ebay is not "because they can't lie, cheat and steal" but because ebay has so many rules that prevent an auctioneer from performing his LEGAL RESPONSIBILITY for getting the most money for the consignor. Maybe someone working for the auction house wanted to pay the highest price?
What if you paid a Realtor to sell your house, expecting them to earn their commission by getting you the best price.
The house sells for $200,000, and when the Realtor hands you the check, she says "Our office manager wanted your house and would have paid $250,000, but we have a rule against it. "
<< <i>Anyone who cannot see the difference between the lawful actions recited in Texas statutes AND a CRIMINAL bidding on his own merch without intention or prospective obligation to purchase, is, charitably put, simply in the fog of fraud-centric denial. >>
Storm888, It's known as a "buyback" and you REALLY need a reality check before you start calling people "criminals" and mentioning "fraud"
<< <i>In a traditional auction - goverened by the typical statutes cited by frankcoins - such a seller is at risk of paying money when he bids. No such risk is attendant in a shilled EBAY auction. The consumer, who thinks he is playing in a fair game is the ONLY party at risk.....and, he will always lose. >>
In a traditional auction governed by the rules I cited, the seller DOES NOT pay anything for the item, since no actual sale occured, but does have to pay the fees to auction house.
On ebay, a shill bidder does not pay for the item, since no actual sale occured, but does have to pay final value fees to ebay.
Other than the fact that it's against ebay's rules to do this, the situations are exactly the same.
Frank Provasek - PCGS Authorized Dealer, Life Member ANA, Member TNA. www.frankcoins.com
<< <i>"Would you care to list the states that do not permit owners to bid on their own items at a public auction?"
no, I'd rather you stuck to commenting on the venue in question, "...found out a seller on ebay appears to be using a second ebay account to bid there own auctions..."
It's been painfully obvious for months that you have a terrible problem trying to sell on eBay. Do you really think the State of Texas is coming to your rescue? >>
I follow ebay's rules when listing on ebay. But I also point out that owners bidding on the items they consign is not against any law, and ebay's policy is only to protect ebay's collection of reserve fees. It's a fallicy of logic to argue that shill bidding is "theft plain and simple" when there is ZERO difference between an $100 shill bid and a $100 reserve: The owner wants $100 for this item, and unless you bid that much you won't get it.
My "terrible problem trying to sell on ebay" comes from people like Bochiman and Russ who continue to portray me as a seller of "cr@p slabs" simply because I criticize ebay for their illegal restraint of trade policies regarding SEGS, PCI and ICCS slabs. Others have jumped on the bandwagon and and sent me private messages that I am "scum" and therefore they will do everything they can to destroy my business by reporting everything I list on ebay. One bragged on a public message that they know how to style a complaint to ebay so an auction will be ended even if there is no violation. Nice people, huh?
Frank Provasek - PCGS Authorized Dealer, Life Member ANA, Member TNA. www.frankcoins.com
<< <i>"Would you care to list the states that do not permit owners to bid on their own items at a public auction?"
no, I'd rather you stuck to commenting on the venue in question, "...found out a seller on ebay appears to be using a second ebay account to bid there own auctions..."
>>
Well the original poster styled the thread as a great moral dilemma ...if you know something and do nothing...
Did your crazy uncle just take a gun to go visit the guy who fired him? Does the youth minister seem to have too many little girls coming over for all night bible study? Is someone selling a fake coins as genuine?
The dilemma in fact is someone "appears" to be using a second account . Simple. Report it and let ebay handle it. But the vast majority of reports turn out to be something else.
I am only wasting my Sunday afternoon on this topic after gettiing a private message telling me I was scum because of what I said in the thread. But I never said anything in the thread. Bochiman posted "frankcoins says it's all good...on the other hand _I_ have ethics..."
Frank Provasek - PCGS Authorized Dealer, Life Member ANA, Member TNA. www.frankcoins.com
<< <i>All this comparing of eBay with a real auction house gets a little tiring since they both play by a different set of bidding rules.
Totally Different.
I can bid $2,000 on an item that starts at .99 cents on eBay, but if I am the only bidder, I get the item for .99 cents.
I can bid $2,000 on an item at a real auction and if nobody else bids, I get the item for $2,000 regardless of its 'true' value. >>
On real auctions, an absentee, mail, telephone or internet bid is USUALLY treated the same as ebay. Best to call the auction house and confirm the policies as misunderstandings can be expensive.
Frank Provasek - PCGS Authorized Dealer, Life Member ANA, Member TNA. www.frankcoins.com
"..You apparently have a reading comprehension problem..."
///////////////////
You are apparently both ignorant AND arrogant.
You refuse to see the difference between an illegal action by a shill and a lawful action by an owner disclosing that he will place a bid on his own item in a regulated public auction.
Shilling is a CRIME. Read your own Texas statutes, before you end up on the wrong side of the law; or worse, encourage someone else to break the law with your ridiculous and terrible advice.
Your "real estate analogy" is just plain stupid, stupid, stupid. Decades ago, when the statutes that enable the contents of the "Green Book" were being put together in Austin, many crooked and dumb auctioneers lobbied their legislators to "waive discolsure provisions" and allow the very kind of shielded-shilling that you advocate EBAY should embrace. Their primary argument was "we got this here fiduciary duty thing and we gotta get all we can." Happily, most of the elected officials are not as backward and corrupt as some of their constituents are.
I know many honest, smart and trustworthy auctioneers. ONE thing they all have in common: They KNOW shill bidding is a CRIME in every regulated jurisdiction. YOU are advocating shill-bidding on EBAY; maybe not because you are crooked, but because you are just too thick-headed to actually understand the law and rules that you claim expertise in.
Good thing you have a BS from UTA. Something to fall back on when your own public pronouncements convince folks that bidding on your auctions might be hazardous.
Folks Who Bite Get Bitten. Folks Who Don't Bite Get Eaten.
. It's a fallicy of logic to argue that shill bidding is "theft plain and simple" when there is ZERO difference between an $100 shill bid and a $100 reserve: The owner wants $100 for this item, and unless you bid that much you won't get it.
Then why not PLAY by the RULES and set a reserve?
Or start the auction at the minimum one wants for an item?
<< <i>Frank, where were you born and raised? Did you just move to a state when you found one that supported your views of the law? >>
I was born and raised in Texas. Would you care to list the states that do not permit owners to bid on their own items at a public auction? >>
Frank I agree with you 100% on this one. I go to many auctions where people bid on their items, again,may I mention again, educate yourself and what you are willing to pay for a item. I read sellers on ebay should put BIN's, reserves well they know the %'s of selling their auctions.
Why in the hell are so many people coming to ebay's side of this so called rule. You guys have to understand this is a cyberspace auction house that has no Taxes, no IRS reporting and lastly if you guys understand that ebay is laughing all the way to the bank. Keep up supporting something that puts a little money in your wallet, but don't tear down a person like Frank or anyone else that has a opinion on SHILLING. I don't like it, but I hate the heck out of Judges and lawyers that plea bargain a robber after he just voliated your home and because he was the son of someone that is big in your hometown he is out and told you did a bad thing so don't do it again. See what I mean JOE.
<< <i>"..You apparently have a reading comprehension problem..."
///////////////////
You are apparently both ignorant AND arrogant.
You refuse to see the difference between an illegal action by a shill and a lawful action by an owner disclosing that he will place a bid on his own item in a regulated public auction.
Shilling is a CRIME. Read your own Texas statutes, before you end up on the wrong side of the law; or worse, encourage someone else to break the law with your ridiculous and terrible advice.
Your "real estate analogy" is just plain stupid, stupid, stupid. Decades ago, when the statutes that enable the contents of the "Green Book" were being put together in Austin, many crooked and dumb auctioneers lobbied their legislators to "waive discolsure provisions" and allow the very kind of shielded-shilling that you advocate EBAY should embrace. Their primary argument was "we got this here fiduciary duty thing and we gotta get all we can." Happily, most of the elected officials are not as backward and corrupt as some of their constituents are.
I know many honest, smart and trustworthy auctioneers. ONE thing they all have in common: They KNOW shill bidding is a CRIME in every regulated jurisdiction. YOU are advocating shill-bidding on EBAY; maybe not because you are crooked, but because you are just too thick-headed to actually understand the law and rules that you claim expertise in.
Good thing you have a BS from UTA. Something to fall back on when your own public pronouncements convince folks that bidding on your auctions might be hazardous. >>
Frank is masterful at creating the appearance of a logical argument.
there is ZERO difference between an $100 shill bid and a $100 reserve
The difference is that a bidder who is unsure of the value of an item is more likely to be influenced by another bidder's bid than by a reserve.
Of course, in an ideal world everyone would know what everything is worth and this would be a moot point. But then, we wouldn't need auctions, would we?
Andy Lustig
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
<< <i>. It's a fallicy of logic to argue that shill bidding is "theft plain and simple" when there is ZERO difference between an $100 shill bid and a $100 reserve: The owner wants $100 for this item, and unless you bid that much you won't get it.
Then why not PLAY by the RULES and set a reserve?
Or start the auction at the minimum one wants for an item?
Your logic is flawed.
Steve >>
I play by the rules. I have NEVER advocated that anyone place shill bids on ebay. NEVER
But you claim my logic is flawed.
Explain my error. Remember this is a math exercise in auction game theory (google it)
Item A is listed on ebay with a reserve of $100
Item B, identical, is listed on ebay with a $10 opening bid, but the seller's wife has placed a $99 max, and the next allowed bid is $100 In each case:
1. What is the minimum amount the owner is willing to accept?
2. Will a sale occur if a bid of $50 or $75 is placed?
3. Assuming that there are no other bidders, what is the least amount you must bid to win the item?
4. Assuming there are no other bidders, what will you pay if you place a maximum bid of $140?
5. You use a sniping program set for $250. Assuming no other bidders, what will you pay?
6. If a "shill bid" required you to increase your bid to the minimum amount that the seller would accept, has anyone in fact "overpaid?"
This is not advocating placing shill bids on ebay, but merely an exercise to show that claims of THEFT! CHEATING! CALL THE FBI! are ridiculous.
Frank Provasek - PCGS Authorized Dealer, Life Member ANA, Member TNA. www.frankcoins.com
"I am the owner of the listed item and I will or may bid on my own item."
NOBODY WOULD BID........EVER. >>
FWIW, eBay used to allow sellers one bid on their own item. That didn't seem to stop people from bidding too terribly much. Granted, they decided to discontinue that policy, but still...
As a disclaimer, I don't think it's a particularly good idea to bid on your own items, even if it's allowed.
Comments
<< <i>"The use of shill bids in on-line auctions illegally drives up prices and defrauds consumers," said Eliot Spitzer, the State Attorney General. >>
Where have I heard that name before.
Found it
GREAT info. Don't pick on poor Frank though. He's from (and apparently got his law degree in) Texas and sounds like a defense attorney that a caught shiller would hire.
Seriously though. This is an issue the courts themselves are divided on depending on the specifics of each case. Obviously consignors bidding on their own lots on Teletrade or Heritage face little chance of prosecution while those on the other end of the spectrum just might.
Secondly tossing out a bid for a forum friend with no expectation of the coin selling at that price could be considered a shill bid or not? It seems to be an acceptable practice to mention the bid here knowing that increasing the bid and thereby creating more traffic, i.e. bids generally attracts other bidders to the coin.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>I don't see shill bidding as anything more than a different way of setting a reserve. The owner stops bidding when the coin meets his reserve. If he gets greedy and keeps bidding, he doesn't sell his coin and still winds up paying all the auction fees. >>
Though I despise shilling, I suppose one could view it as bargaining with the seller in the blind. We shouldn't bid more than we would agree to pay for a coin, given the available information/images, anyway. Whether you have a competing bidder or a seller that ratchets you up because he/she demands you latest offer still is too low, may not matter all that much.
NSDR - Life Member
SSDC - Life Member
ANA - Pay As I Go Member
There are at least 4 strategies people employ to make ethical decisions.
1 - Rights and Duties - right is right, no matter who it hurts.
2 - Relativism - what does the least harm and the most good?
3 - Idealistism - how will my decision make me feel about me?
4 - Machiavellianism - we must be realists, and accept things as they are. We must learn to prosper based on the real rules, rather than the stated ones.
Your decision will be based on your personal ideology.
(the 5th is usually the golden rule.)
and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
<< <i>
<< <i>Read about it here what happens if your caught and prosecuted >>
that's sure a stretch to claim that someone violating an ebay policy is guilty of restraint of
trade. Even dumber to plead guilty , in which case the government gets to relocate your
residence to a "for profit" prison without a jury of your peers judging you. >>
Frank,
Please feel free to explain to all of us exactly what a "shill" is since the term is mentioned in various state's statutes. While individual states have different statutes and applications, they all use the same definitions.
https://acoinshop.com/ —-> https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
unethical to share the information that YOU found?
<< <i>I came across a situation where by accident found out a seller on ebay appears to be using a second ebay account to bid there own auctions >>
Objection: "How did this discussion get so far afield from the originalquestion? eBay has a rule against shill bidding, and that's that. All the legal stuff I've read here is irrelevant, your Honor."
"Objection sustained."
my early American coins & currency: -- http://yankeedoodlecoins.com/
I must take six hours of continuing education each year on auction law, (and ebay was specifically discussed...they like to
apply auction laws when it benefits them, and then claim auction laws DO NOT APPLY to their 'unique business model" when it
involves a cost.) I also must pass a written test at the state capital in Austin conducted by the Texas department of licensing and regulation. I scored
100%. I know what the law is in Texas (most other states also follow a "model law" with few changes) and Consignors
have the right under the law to bid on their own items in standard auctions. An AUCTIONEER
cannot place fake shill bids simply to increase his commission...but bids from the owner are acceptable and legal., and
do not "artificially inflate the price" any more than a reserve.
I am offended at your condesending remarks that auctioneers from the South are just too stupid to understand the law.
///////////////////////////////////////////
//////////////////////////////////////////
I lived in and did business in the SE for years, and found folks no more/less stupid
there than anywhere else in America. My SE reference was to "tradition and practice,"
NOT mental acumen. Red Herring?
Anyone who cannot see the difference between the lawful actions recited in Texas
statutes AND a CRIMINAL bidding on his own merch without intention or prospective
obligation to purchase, is, charitably put, simply in the fog of fraud-centric denial.
"...An AUCTIONEER cannot place fake shill bids simply to increase his commission...but bids from the owner are acceptable and legal.,...."
IF a "reserve price" is nothing more than "the owner's bid," nobody should have a
problem with EBAY's scheme. Yet, EBAY sellers hate reserves; they cost money and
they usually limit bid traffic. It is to the corrupt seller's clear advantage to waive
reserves and shill; the practice is very likely epidemic, and EBAY can do little to
stop it.
In a traditional auction - goverened by the typical statutes cited by frankcoins - such
a seller is at risk of paying money when he bids. No such risk is attendant in a shilled
EBAY auction. The consumer, who thinks he is playing in a fair game is the ONLY party
at risk.....and, he will always lose.
MANY experienced/licensed auctioneers refuse to offer consigned merch on EBAY. They
claim they would be in violation of their fiduciary duty to their consignor to list on EBAY.
What many really mean is that if they cannot lie, cheat and steal - as they wrongfully
interpret their states' statutes to permit - they don't want to play.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Read about it here what happens if your caught and prosecuted >>
that's sure a stretch to claim that someone violating an ebay policy is guilty of restraint of
trade. Even dumber to plead guilty , in which case the government gets to relocate your
residence to a "for profit" prison without a jury of your peers judging you. >>
Frank,
Please feel free to explain to all of us exactly what a "shill" is since the term is mentioned in various state's statutes. While individual states have different statutes and applications, they all use the same definitions. >>
Please, please, post links to these statutes. Otherwise what you are stating simply becomes hearsay. Additionally, since shilling is a term used to defraud folks in gambling, be sure what you post applies to auction bidding otherwise its unimportant.
The name is LEE!
So how much do you think those items you have listed on eBay will sell for ?
And could you render a grade ?
(I'm always better off knowing nothing)
https://acoinshop.com/ —-> https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
I agree. After seeing the ferocity with which some forum members complain about EBAY sellers who won't combine shipping on two $3 postage auctions...I am amazed at the luke warm condemnation of this type of conduct. It is a form of theft, plain and simple. If the evidence is firm, it should be reported without hesitation, and if the OP isn't comfortable making the report for fear it won't be confidential, he should provide the particulars to one of us who does have that concern.
This kind of crap hurts us all, more importantly, it hurts the hobby, and anybody interested in bettering the marketplace we operate in should have a very firm and fast response to this sort of crap.
Greg Hansen, Melbourne, FL Click here for any current EBAY auctions Multiple "Circle of Trust" transactions over 14 years on forum
I agree, and I did that yesterday !
did I miss that post?
well recognize that the right of Aunt Betsy to bid on her late sister's
coin collection at auction is a matter for mere transparency to handle.
If Betsy is the high-bidder, she will pay.
Would anybody like to bid on my EBAY auction, if transparency resolved:
"Please note that I will be bidding on my own items, and I may have my
friend/neighbor bid, too. If I or my friend/neighbor are the high-bidder,
we will NOT purchase the item, and I will notify the next highest bidder
that he has won the item and should send payment forthwith."
Rhetorical ???
.....
.............
Because Texas and every other state that licenses auctioneers understands
that consumer confidence - and equity - requires transparency in auction
commerce, their statutes, regs and rules deal with almost any eventuality.
/////////
////////////
Administrative Rules
The Texas Commission of Licensing and Regulation (“Commission”)......
...adopts amendments to existing rules at 16 Texas Administrative Code (“TAC”), Chapter 67, §§67.21, 67.22, 67.25, 67.40, 67.65, 67.80, and 67.94; new rule §§67.23, 67.24, and 67.72; and the repeal of §§67.41, 67.42, 67.60, 67.81-67.83, 67.90, and 67.100-67.102 regarding the auctioneers program without changes from the proposal. The Commission also adopts amendments to existing rule §§67.10, 67.20, and 67.70 and new rule §67.71 with changes from the rules as proposed.
The adopted amendments, new rules, and repeals update statutory references and bring rule requirements more in line with state and federal law.
(d) A licensee may not knowingly use, or permit the use of, false bidders, cappers, or shills at any auction.
(e) Before beginning an auction, a licensee must announce, give notice, display notice and/or disclose:
(1) that the auctioneer conducting the sale is licensed by the department;
(2) the terms and conditions of the sale including whether a buyer’s premium will be assessed; and
(3) if the owner, consignor, or agent thereof has reserved the right to bid.
(f) If an auctioneer advertises an auction as "absolute" or "without reserve", no lots included may have a minimum bid. Advertising may include the wording, "many lots are without reserve"; however, the auction may not be titled, headed or called an "absolute" or "without reserve" auction unless all lots meet that criteria.
(g) All auctioneers shall notify consumers and service recipients of the name, mailing address, and telephone number of the department for purposes of directing complaints to the department. The licensees may use a sticker or rubber stamp to convey the required information. The notification shall be included on any seller or consignor contract and on at least one of the following:
(1) a sign prominently displayed at the place of the auction;
(2) bills of sale or receipt to be given to buyers; or
(3) on bidder cards.
(h) An auctioneer who intends to charge a buyer's premium at an auction must state this condition and the amount of the buyer's premium in all advertising for the auction.
(i) Any statement in an advertisement for an auction that alters the meaning of another statement in the advertisement must be in a type font at least as large as the type font of the statement it alters.
////////////////////
The Texas "Green Book" contains almost 1700 pages that deal with every element
of auctions. The Texas statutes are just and correct and NOT one dot or title therein
sanctions or abides the kind of SHILL BIDDING that is contemplated by those folks
who think "EBAY's rules are an anomaly to the auction business."
<< <i>I think shill bidding is unethical.... and hurts legitimate bidders. We should expose this practice wherever we find it.... and then, as a group, boycott the seller and inform uninformed bidders of the nefarious practice employed by the seller. Cheers, RickO >>
<< <i>I chuckle whenever this topic comes up in this forum. Why, because there are members here who sell consigned coins on ebay and allow the owners to bid. >>
What a great idea! True shilling but does eBay even monitor this or is it totally between the consignor and the consignee? And ......... at what point does this process get mutated into a "you bid on mine and I'll bid on your's" scenario vs an "I sell mine and my other eBay id bids on mine" scenario?
<< <i>Secondly tossing out a bid for a forum friend with no expectation of the coin selling at that price could be considered a shill bid or not? It seems to be an acceptable practice to mention the bid here knowing that increasing the bid and thereby creating more traffic, i.e. bids generally attracts other bidders to the coin. >>
I do not think this falls under the definition of shill bidding according to eBay even though the practice is mentioned under the shill bidding help page. It is mentioned with regard to having "a level of access to item information which is not available to the general Community" which to me is simply bunk!
Besides, at what point does it "artificially increase the price" especially if the item being sold is not 'attracting' bidders?
Shill bidding on eBay is often viewed on these forums in the same light as the "old, fat coin dealer that regularly rips off older folks". In other words, without much thought but with a lot of malice based upon incomplete information. The 'crowd' mentality so to speak.
Often times, eBay states that a 'reserve' should be placed on items which have an expected return value. The truth is, many times reserves chase bidders away and of course eBay encourages it because 'reserves' cost the seller additional money in eBay fee's.
The entire premise behind shill bidding and 'artificially increasing an items price' revolves around the auctioning of fake or counterfeit items which are illegal. I seriously do not think that a seller bidding on his own item constitutes shill bidding (as do many auction venues) except in the eyes of eBay.
The name is LEE!
<< <i>Administrative Rules
The Texas Commission of Licensing and Regulation (“Commission”)......
...adopts amendments to existing rules at 16 Texas Administrative Code (“TAC”), Chapter 67, §§67.21, 67.22, 67.25, 67.40, 67.65, 67.80, and 67.94; new rule §§67.23, 67.24, and 67.72; and the repeal of §§67.41, 67.42, 67.60, 67.81-67.83, 67.90, and 67.100-67.102 regarding the auctioneers program without changes from the proposal. The Commission also adopts amendments to existing rule §§67.10, 67.20, and 67.70 and new rule §67.71 with changes from the rules as proposed.
The adopted amendments, new rules, and repeals update statutory references and bring rule requirements more in line with state and federal law.
(d) A licensee may not knowingly use, or permit the use of, false bidders, cappers, or shills at any auction.
(e) Before beginning an auction, a licensee must announce, give notice, display notice and/or disclose:
(1) that the auctioneer conducting the sale is licensed by the department;
(2) the terms and conditions of the sale including whether a buyer’s premium will be assessed; and
(3) if the owner, consignor, or agent thereof has reserved the right to bid.
(f) If an auctioneer advertises an auction as "absolute" or "without reserve", no lots included may have a minimum bid. Advertising may include the wording, "many lots are without reserve"; however, the auction may not be titled, headed or called an "absolute" or "without reserve" auction unless all lots meet that criteria.
(g) All auctioneers shall notify consumers and service recipients of the name, mailing address, and telephone number of the department for purposes of directing complaints to the department. The licensees may use a sticker or rubber stamp to convey the required information. The notification shall be included on any seller or consignor contract and on at least one of the following:
(1) a sign prominently displayed at the place of the auction;
(2) bills of sale or receipt to be given to buyers; or
(3) on bidder cards.
(h) An auctioneer who intends to charge a buyer's premium at an auction must state this condition and the amount of the buyer's premium in all advertising for the auction.
(i) Any statement in an advertisement for an auction that alters the meaning of another statement in the advertisement must be in a type font at least as large as the type font of the statement it alters.
<< <i>
Thank you.
The name is LEE!
//////////////////////////////////////////
Where state statutes permit such bidding, those statutes require
DISCLOSURE by the third-party auctioneer.
There is usually NO such "third-party" in an EBAY auction. Just a
CRIMINAL bidding-up his own merch in an attempt to generate
excitement and higher prices. The end game is to STEAL MONEY.
The FACT is that if EBAY allowed folks to bid on their own coins,
AND required disclosure of same, NOBODY would bid on anything.
Great info for those that choose to not condemn the practice or choose to argue that the differences cited in the different (some allowable) forms are merely negligble.
<< <i>"...I seriously do not think that a seller bidding on his own item constitutes shill bidding (as do many auction venues) except in the eyes of eBay. ..."
//////////////////////////////////////////
Where state statutes permit such bidding, those statutes require
DISCLOSURE by the third-party auctioneer.
There is usually NO such "third-party" in an EBAY auction. Just a
CRIMINAL bidding-up his own merch in an attempt to generate
excitement and higher prices. The end game is to STEAL MONEY.
The FACT is that if EBAY allowed folks to bid on their own coins,
AND required disclosure of same, NOBODY would bid on anything. >>
//////////////////////////////////////////////
Which is why eBay has this rule. Right?
The name is LEE!
//////////////////
And, because NOT having the rule would embrace the concept
that sellers could freely engage in acts of mail-fraud and wire-fraud
using EBAY as the vehicle.
ALL should remember, that any seller on EBAY, for whatever reason,
is fully permitted to invite friends/neighbors/relatives/spouses/etc.
to BUY such sellers' items. All the seller need do is list his item as
a BIN w/o an auction feature.
IF a seller using shills was acting in good faith, he would simply list
the item as a BIN. BUT, we all KNOW he is NOT acting in good faith;
he is a CROOK; and, his shills NEVER have any intention of "buying"
anything. They are simply abetting THEFT and FRAUD.
the item as a BIN. BUT, we all KNOW he is NOT acting in good faith;
he is a CROOK; and, his shills NEVER have any intention of "buying"
anything. They are simply abetting THEFT and FRAUD."
Well said Storm888..... Cheers, RickO
<< <i>Frank, where were you born and raised? Did you just move to a state when you found one that supported your views of the law? >>
I was born and raised in Texas. Would you care to list the states that do not permit owners to bid on their own items at a public auction?
/////////////////////////////////////////
There is no reason for any regulated state to prohibit item-owners from
bidding on such items, IF :
1. The auction is conducted by a licensed third-party; and,
2. The item-owners' intention to bid is disclosed.
.........
On EBAY, such disclosure would remove virtually ALL other bidders from the contest.
Prospective EBAY Disclosure(s):
1.
"I am a licensed auctioneer. The owner or the owner's agent has reserved the
right to bid on the offered item."
NOT VERY MANY folks would bid.
2.
"I am the owner of the listed item and I will or may bid on my own item."
NOBODY WOULD BID........EVER.
..........................................................
EBAY + TRADITIONAL Live Auction = Apples+Oranges.
no, I'd rather you stuck to commenting on the venue in question, "...found out a seller on ebay appears to be using a second ebay account to bid there own auctions..."
It's been painfully obvious for months that you have a terrible problem trying to sell on eBay. Do you really think the State of Texas is coming to your rescue?
<< <i>
The Texas "Green Book" contains almost 1700 pages that deal with every element
of auctions. The Texas statutes are just and correct and NOT one dot or title therein
sanctions or abides the kind of SHILL BIDDING that is contemplated by those folks
who think "EBAY's rules are an anomaly to the auction business." >>
You apparently have a reading comprehension problem. As I said, an auctioneer cannot allow shill
bidding simply to raise the price and thus his commission. Owner bids are NOT considered shill bidding...
except on ebay...they are LEGITIMATE and LEGAL. The OP complained of an owner bidding on his own
items on ebay. Only ebay bans this practice generally, thus they are an anomaly to the auction business.
Not one person has given an example of how a bidder is harmed by the owner placing a bid on their own
items any moreso than if there was a reserve in the same amount.
On most online auctions, you place a bid and will be told that you were overbid. Were you overbid by a reserve
or by a bid placed by the owner? It doesn't matter. In auction law a bid by the owner and a reserve are considered the
same thing.
The reason professional auctioneers (including myself) seldom place consigned items on ebay is not "because they can't lie, cheat and
steal" but because ebay has so many rules that prevent an auctioneer from performing his LEGAL RESPONSIBILITY for getting the
most money for the consignor. Maybe someone working for the auction house wanted to pay the highest price?
What if you paid a Realtor to sell your house, expecting them to earn their commission by getting you the best price.
The house sells for $200,000, and when the Realtor hands you the check, she says "Our office manager wanted your house
and would have paid $250,000, but we have a rule against it. "
<< <i>Anyone who cannot see the difference between the lawful actions recited in Texas
statutes AND a CRIMINAL bidding on his own merch without intention or prospective
obligation to purchase, is, charitably put, simply in the fog of fraud-centric denial. >>
Storm888, It's known as a "buyback" and you REALLY need a reality check before you start calling
people "criminals" and mentioning "fraud"
<< <i>In a traditional auction - goverened by the typical statutes cited by frankcoins - such
a seller is at risk of paying money when he bids. No such risk is attendant in a shilled
EBAY auction. The consumer, who thinks he is playing in a fair game is the ONLY party
at risk.....and, he will always lose. >>
In a traditional auction governed by the rules I cited, the seller DOES NOT pay anything
for the item, since no actual sale occured, but does have to pay the fees to auction house.
On ebay, a shill bidder does not pay for the item, since no actual sale occured, but does have
to pay final value fees to ebay.
Other than the fact that it's against ebay's rules to do this, the situations are exactly the same.
Totally Different.
I can bid $2,000 on an item that starts at .99 cents on eBay, but if I am the only bidder, I get the item for .99 cents.
I can bid $2,000 on an item at a real auction and if nobody else bids, I get the item for $2,000 regardless of its 'true' value.
The name is LEE!
<< <i>"Would you care to list the states that do not permit owners to bid on their own items at a public auction?"
no, I'd rather you stuck to commenting on the venue in question, "...found out a seller on ebay appears to be using a second ebay account to bid there own auctions..."
It's been painfully obvious for months that you have a terrible problem trying to sell on eBay. Do you really think the State of Texas is coming to your rescue? >>
I follow ebay's rules when listing on ebay. But I also point out that owners bidding on the items they consign is not against any law, and ebay's
policy is only to protect ebay's collection of reserve fees. It's a fallicy of logic to argue that shill bidding is "theft plain and simple" when there is
ZERO difference between an $100 shill bid and a $100 reserve: The owner wants $100 for this item, and unless you bid that much you
won't get it.
My "terrible problem trying to sell on ebay" comes from people like Bochiman and Russ who continue to portray me as a seller of "cr@p slabs" simply
because I criticize ebay for their illegal restraint of trade policies regarding SEGS, PCI and ICCS slabs. Others have jumped on the bandwagon and
and sent me private messages that I am "scum" and therefore they will do everything they can to destroy my business by reporting everything I list
on ebay. One bragged on a public message that they know how to style a complaint to ebay so an auction will be ended even if there is no
violation. Nice people, huh?
Collector since 1976. On the CU forums here since 2001.
<< <i>"Would you care to list the states that do not permit owners to bid on their own items at a public auction?"
no, I'd rather you stuck to commenting on the venue in question, "...found out a seller on ebay appears to be using a second ebay account to bid there own auctions..."
>>
Well the original poster styled the thread as a great moral dilemma ...if you know something and do nothing...
Did your crazy uncle just take a gun to go visit the guy who fired him? Does the youth minister seem to have
too many little girls coming over for all night bible study? Is someone selling a fake coins as genuine?
The dilemma in fact is someone "appears" to be using a second account . Simple. Report it and let ebay
handle it. But the vast majority of reports turn out to be something else.
I am only wasting my Sunday afternoon on this topic after gettiing a private message telling me I was scum because
of what I said in the thread. But I never said anything in the thread. Bochiman posted "frankcoins says it's all good...on
the other hand _I_ have ethics..."
<< <i>All this comparing of eBay with a real auction house gets a little tiring since they both play by a different set of bidding rules.
Totally Different.
I can bid $2,000 on an item that starts at .99 cents on eBay, but if I am the only bidder, I get the item for .99 cents.
I can bid $2,000 on an item at a real auction and if nobody else bids, I get the item for $2,000 regardless of its 'true' value. >>
On real auctions, an absentee, mail, telephone or internet bid is USUALLY treated the same as ebay.
Best to call the auction house and confirm the policies as misunderstandings can be expensive.
<< <i>
On EBAY, such disclosure would remove virtually ALL other bidders from the contest.
Prospective EBAY Disclosure(s):
1.
"I am a licensed auctioneer. The owner or the owner's agent has reserved the
right to bid on the offered item."
NOT VERY MANY folks would bid.
2.
"I am the owner of the listed item and I will or may bid on my own item."
NOBODY WOULD BID........EVER.
>>
Why were $40 million worth of coins auctioned last week at Baltimore under those terms?
///////////////////
You are apparently both ignorant AND arrogant.
You refuse to see the difference between an illegal action by a
shill and a lawful action by an owner disclosing that he will place
a bid on his own item in a regulated public auction.
Shilling is a CRIME. Read your own Texas statutes, before you
end up on the wrong side of the law; or worse, encourage someone
else to break the law with your ridiculous and terrible advice.
Your "real estate analogy" is just plain stupid, stupid, stupid.
Decades ago, when the statutes that enable the contents of the
"Green Book" were being put together in Austin, many crooked
and dumb auctioneers lobbied their legislators to "waive discolsure
provisions" and allow the very kind of shielded-shilling that you
advocate EBAY should embrace. Their primary argument was "we
got this here fiduciary duty thing and we gotta get all we can."
Happily, most of the elected officials are not as backward and
corrupt as some of their constituents are.
I know many honest, smart and trustworthy auctioneers. ONE
thing they all have in common: They KNOW shill bidding is a CRIME
in every regulated jurisdiction. YOU are advocating shill-bidding
on EBAY; maybe not because you are crooked, but because you
are just too thick-headed to actually understand the law and rules
that you claim expertise in.
Good thing you have a BS from UTA. Something to fall back on when
your own public pronouncements convince folks that bidding on your
auctions might be hazardous.
Steve
ZERO difference between an $100 shill bid and a $100 reserve: The owner wants $100 for this item, and unless you bid that much you
won't get it.
Then why not PLAY by the RULES and set a reserve?
Or start the auction at the minimum one wants for an item?
Your logic is flawed.
Steve
<< <i>
<< <i>Frank, where were you born and raised? Did you just move to a state when you found one that supported your views of the law? >>
I was born and raised in Texas. Would you care to list the states that do not permit owners to bid on their own items at a public auction? >>
Frank I agree with you 100% on this one. I go to many auctions where people bid on their items, again,may I mention again, educate yourself and what you are willing to pay for a item. I read sellers on ebay should put BIN's, reserves well they know the %'s of selling their auctions.
Why in the hell are so many people coming to ebay's side of this so called rule. You guys have to understand this is a cyberspace auction house that has no Taxes, no IRS reporting and lastly if you guys understand that ebay is laughing all the way to the bank. Keep up supporting something that puts a little money in your wallet, but don't tear down a person like Frank or anyone else that has a opinion on SHILLING. I don't like it, but I hate the heck out of Judges and lawyers that plea bargain a robber after he just voliated your home and because he was the son of someone that is big in your hometown he is out and told you did a bad thing so don't do it again. See what I mean JOE.
<< <i>"..You apparently have a reading comprehension problem..."
///////////////////
You are apparently both ignorant AND arrogant.
You refuse to see the difference between an illegal action by a
shill and a lawful action by an owner disclosing that he will place
a bid on his own item in a regulated public auction.
Shilling is a CRIME. Read your own Texas statutes, before you
end up on the wrong side of the law; or worse, encourage someone
else to break the law with your ridiculous and terrible advice.
Your "real estate analogy" is just plain stupid, stupid, stupid.
Decades ago, when the statutes that enable the contents of the
"Green Book" were being put together in Austin, many crooked
and dumb auctioneers lobbied their legislators to "waive discolsure
provisions" and allow the very kind of shielded-shilling that you
advocate EBAY should embrace. Their primary argument was "we
got this here fiduciary duty thing and we gotta get all we can."
Happily, most of the elected officials are not as backward and
corrupt as some of their constituents are.
I know many honest, smart and trustworthy auctioneers. ONE
thing they all have in common: They KNOW shill bidding is a CRIME
in every regulated jurisdiction. YOU are advocating shill-bidding
on EBAY; maybe not because you are crooked, but because you
are just too thick-headed to actually understand the law and rules
that you claim expertise in.
Good thing you have a BS from UTA. Something to fall back on when
your own public pronouncements convince folks that bidding on your
auctions might be hazardous. >>
Frank is masterful at creating the appearance of a logical argument.
Check out my current listings: https://ebay.com/sch/khunt/m.html?_ipg=200&_sop=12&_rdc=1
The difference is that a bidder who is unsure of the value of an item is more likely to be influenced by another bidder's bid than by a reserve.
Of course, in an ideal world everyone would know what everything is worth and this would be a moot point. But then, we wouldn't need auctions, would we?
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
<< <i>. It's a fallicy of logic to argue that shill bidding is "theft plain and simple" when there is
ZERO difference between an $100 shill bid and a $100 reserve: The owner wants $100 for this item, and unless you bid that much you
won't get it.
Then why not PLAY by the RULES and set a reserve?
Or start the auction at the minimum one wants for an item?
Your logic is flawed.
Steve >>
I play by the rules. I have NEVER advocated that anyone place shill bids on ebay. NEVER
But you claim my logic is flawed.
Explain my error. Remember this is a math exercise in auction game theory (google it)
Item A is listed on ebay with a reserve of $100
Item B, identical, is listed on ebay with a $10 opening bid, but the seller's wife has placed a $99 max, and the next allowed bid is $100
In each case:
1. What is the minimum amount the owner is willing to accept?
2. Will a sale occur if a bid of $50 or $75 is placed?
3. Assuming that there are no other bidders, what is the least amount you must bid to win the item?
4. Assuming there are no other bidders, what will you pay if you place a maximum bid of $140?
5. You use a sniping program set for $250. Assuming no other bidders, what will you pay?
6. If a "shill bid" required you to increase your bid to the minimum amount that
the seller would accept, has anyone in fact "overpaid?"
This is not advocating placing shill bids on ebay, but merely an exercise to show that claims of
THEFT! CHEATING! CALL THE FBI! are ridiculous.
<< <i>2.
"I am the owner of the listed item and I will or may bid on my own item."
NOBODY WOULD BID........EVER. >>
FWIW, eBay used to allow sellers one bid on their own item. That didn't seem to stop people from bidding too terribly much. Granted, they decided to discontinue that policy, but still...
As a disclaimer, I don't think it's a particularly good idea to bid on your own items, even if it's allowed.