The Mint is doing a disservice to coin collectors.
nycounsel
Posts: 1,229 ✭✭
I really think the Mint's practices do a huge disservice to collectors, and every year it seems to get worse.
It sells regular issue coins (rolls, bags) at big premiums, and floods the market with expensive offerings.
Right now, off the top of my head, we have: proof sets (silver and clad), uncirculated sets, a couple of commmemoratives a year, American Eagle platinum, gold, silvers (uncirculated, proof and "w" uncirculated plus the occassional reverse proof), the First Spouse gold coins (unc and proof), the Presidential dollar coins (unc and proof), the gold Buffalos (unc and proof), the announced Ultra High Relief Double Eagle gold coin.
It's impossible for a collector to keep up.
Collecting coins is starting to be like collecting stamps -- the market is flooded with all these different designs. Of course, a stamp costs about 40 cents, while many of these coins cost hundreds, if not thousands, of dollars.
Mint apologists say "oh, but you aren't forced to buy what the Mint makes, if you don't like it, don't buy it."
That's true, but it doesn't make the Mint's practices right, or good for the hobby.
The Mint's primary job is to make coins for circulation. Everything else is designed to be sold to collectors for a profit.
It's a symbiotic relationship. The Mint should really consider the long-term interests of coin collectors. Limit the number of new issues. Strive to make them affordable. Provide collectors with accurate information on availability. I don't think that is too much to ask.
It sells regular issue coins (rolls, bags) at big premiums, and floods the market with expensive offerings.
Right now, off the top of my head, we have: proof sets (silver and clad), uncirculated sets, a couple of commmemoratives a year, American Eagle platinum, gold, silvers (uncirculated, proof and "w" uncirculated plus the occassional reverse proof), the First Spouse gold coins (unc and proof), the Presidential dollar coins (unc and proof), the gold Buffalos (unc and proof), the announced Ultra High Relief Double Eagle gold coin.
It's impossible for a collector to keep up.
Collecting coins is starting to be like collecting stamps -- the market is flooded with all these different designs. Of course, a stamp costs about 40 cents, while many of these coins cost hundreds, if not thousands, of dollars.
Mint apologists say "oh, but you aren't forced to buy what the Mint makes, if you don't like it, don't buy it."
That's true, but it doesn't make the Mint's practices right, or good for the hobby.
The Mint's primary job is to make coins for circulation. Everything else is designed to be sold to collectors for a profit.
It's a symbiotic relationship. The Mint should really consider the long-term interests of coin collectors. Limit the number of new issues. Strive to make them affordable. Provide collectors with accurate information on availability. I don't think that is too much to ask.
Dan
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Is it Congress or Voters? After all, Congress does what their constituency wants. They have formed the CCCAC and are listening to what collectors want by way of what they buy.
Should voters do more to influence their elected representatives?
True, but you left out the part about the mint creating errors to generate headlines.
Chris
Look on it as an opportunity to buy direct from the manufacturer.
I for one wish they had been stockpiling MS coins for a century or more. Wouldnt it be nice to be able to order a roll of 1936 D Lincolns, that had been in storage for decades, in the vault of the mint? Or, to order an uncirculated 16 D mercury direct for the mint?
If you're worried about paying a premium, well then, stick to what you can find in circulation or get from a bank.
<< <i>I for one wish they had been stockpiling MS coins for a centuiry or more. Wouldnt it be nice to be able to order a roll of 1936 D Lincolns, that had been in storage for decades, in the vault of the mint? Or, to order a 16 D mercury direct for the mint? >>
That's an interesting point. Does anyone consider what the Mint did with Morgan dollars a disservice to collectors?
And dont forget the State Quarters in several different options.
<< <i>dont forget the State Quarters >>
According to Mike Castle, it was coin collectors that gave him and Congress the idea for the SHQs. Initially there was resistance to the SHQ idea because of the idea that more circulation coin types would mean more and easier counterfeiting. In the end collectors prevailed, we got the SHQs, and the rest is history. What happened since was / is based on positive collector response to Congressional / Mint programs.
What else is there that motivates the Mint..??.......$$$$....Money...!!!$$$$
There are also some political implications too that are behind the scenes as to why the collector is paying the price for all these programs.
If these coins are manufactured at a fraction of face value then the collector bears the major cost versus mass production.The mint must have an off-shore packaging company somewhere ..I swear..with all the options they have.
I'm all for collecting coins ...I buy what I like and could afford.......
Will the US Mint go the way of the USPS? Probably not since the USPS ony sells stamps which can be used only for postage whereas the mint sells a product which can be used at the local 7-11 for your favorite flavor of Slurpee!
Granted, it could turn out to be an expensive slurpee ($250 bag of dollars for $319 or $1.25 per coin) but its a lot easier than writing all those letters!
My advice is: If you are unhappy with the number of products offered, simply limit yourself to one particular product! Then look back at 1965-1967 or 1982-1983 where the US MINT limited their available products. (Read: no mint sets/proof sets or just no mint sets.)
I for one am very happy that they offer rolls of currently "unavailable" coins as finding a 2006 Kennedy in circulation, while not impossible, can prove to be a very difficult task.
The name is LEE!
When I started collecting in the late 1970s, that was possible.
I think that the whole model changed starting in the 1980s, when the Mint started with Olympic commemoratives.
At this point, I'm sure that most collectors don't purchase every coin that the Mint releases- they pick a niche and collect that.
The hobby becomes fractionalized and, in my opinion, is hurt by it.
A new collector who, say, gets hooked by the 50 state quarters program, has his hands full with uncirculated and proofs, silver and clad, and now the territory quarters, plus maybe state parks... Heck, just keeping up with the quarters program is a headache. Toss in the presidential dollars -- another gimmick aimed at new collectors-- add in errors (wisconsin extra leaf varieties, rim errors), plus 3rd party slabs as 68, 69, 70, stickers, stars, first strikes... I doubt I'm the only one who thinks the whole thing has gotten to be a bit much.
Ideally a new collector would start branching out and his interests would evolve into other coins, but given the overwhelming variety and price of what's out there, he might be more discouraged than inspired.
It's not written that every collector needs to have every item the Mint releases, but I think for the health of the hobby, there SHOULD be a limit to what the Mint issues in any given year.
I think Zoins makes a valid point about Congress, but I suspect that Congress at some level relies on the Mint to advise them in what can or can't, or should or shouldn't, be done. I doubt very much that all of the issues we've seen are driven by Congress; for instance, it seems unlikely to me that Congress was the driving force behind things like reverse proofs, or the platinum 10th year anniversary set, or the coin & collector series.
I'm sure that is why some collectors simply lump it all together, and have such contempt for, "Moderns."
I just think that the Mint's practices are bad for the hobby. '
My point is exactly what underlies the sarcasm of your comment.
They don't "make us buy that stuff", but should want us to.
The number of different offerings presently available makes it all but impossible for anyone to keep up. I suspect that it drives some would-be collectors to forget the whole thing.
Anyone who is now a collector, of any series, should want new collectors to join the hobby- without them, the demand side of the equation dwindles and dies, and so does the value of whatever you collect.
The only reason coins like the 1913 Liberty nickel is worth a million dollars, or a mint state 1941/2 dime is worth a thousand dollars, is because there is sufficient demand to command the numismatic premium.
If that demand disappears, you've got 15 cents.
What I find alarming is the thought that this hobby is an investment that can't fail in the future and some people are buying this stuff thinking in 20 years they'll sell it for a nice profit and retire with it.
On top of this are the many novelty items (commemoratives of uncertain importance) that the Congress imposes. The Mint’s obligation is to do it’s best to respond to Congress and to fulfill the specified commemorative program according to law.
All of the activity has pushed some traditional products, such as national medals, deep into the background.
So much product in so many packaging options, these days.
The only motivator seems to be money or rather profit. You can say what you will about SHQ. BUT, IMO, they made money, and got folks into coins again.
I look forward to the types of cents and dollars we will see in coins within the next 5 years.
WS
but do they really turn a profit on collectable coins?
and if they do how much do they make
after subtracting all the huge costs that they have
I would guess that they don't make much profit
due to huge expenses and I wouldn't be surprised if they lose "money"
anyone have the figures?
New Sacagawea Dollars with Edge Lettering.
2009 - lincoln cents with 4 reverses, proof, unc and satin finish...And some for Collectors only copper version.
Then we add the Buffalo Gold Fractionals! WOW!
I'm afraid you need to pick what you want and leave the rest for others.
OR collect only Classic Coins only and avoid the whole mint thing altogether!
Gardnerville, NV
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I break it down and all I see is:
Gold:
Eagle, buffalo, Spouse.
Silver:
Eagle, regular coins.
Commem:
Only 2 a year, and so far only 1 this year. Will they have a second ?
Mint sets:
Proof, Silver, Unc.
interesting numismatic event. Respectfully, John Curlis
I don't know that the law can fix the situation that exists. I suppose one could propose legislation to limit the number of commemorative and bullion/non circulating coins produced by the Mint each year.
Maybe call it
The Coin Collector Protection Act of 2009.
To ensure the long-term sustainability of the numismatic industry, it is hereby resolved that:
(1) CIRCULATING COINS The Mint shall issue all rolls and bags of circulating coins at no more than a 10% premium over face value;
(2) PACKAGING The Mint shall be restrained in packaging options, so that any coin made shall be sold in no more than 2 different packages in any given calendar year;
(3) COMMEMORATIVES The Mint shall be limited to no more than 2 commemorative coin designs in any given calendar year, to be minted in gold and/or silver only, with no more than 2 finishes- one proof or variety thereof (i.e., reverse proof), one uncirculated or variety thereof (i.e., burnished finish)- from no more than one of the Mint branches;
(4) BULLION COINS The Mint shall limit bullion offerings to the American Eagle coin series, in silver, gold and platinum, in uncirculated and/or proof only, and no other special finishes (i.e., reverse proof, burnished uncirculated), from any one of the operating Mints, in any calendar year;
(5) PRICING OF BULLION The Mint shall price bullion coins at no greater than a 20% premium to spot, to be set on the day of first production;
(6) TIMELY SHARING OF INFORMATION The Mint shall announce the upcoming availability of any issue no less than 1 week prior to the date of first offering, and shall similarly announce the end of an offering no less than 1 week prior to the series termination or, for those coins with limited mintages, immediately after the remaining supply reaches 10% or less of the total authorized mintage; and the Mint shall endeavor to announce any other changes in its offerings or policies, and its reasons for doing so, within 72 hours of such determination;
(7) FINAL MINTAGE FIGURES The Mint shall be required to issue audited mintage figures for all coins minted, sold, returned and/or destroyed in each calendar year within 6 months of the last day of issue or no later than June 30 of the following calendar year, whichever comes first;
(8) IMMEDIATE TERMINATION The following coin series are terminated effective immediately (unless designated as a commemorative under Paragraph (3) above): (a) First spouse gold coins, as they are horrible coins; (b) Presidential dollars, as they are equally horrible coins; (c) Sacagawea dollars, because it's time to admit that they are failures; (d) Buffalo gold coins, because, while they are beautiful coins, the line must be drawn somewhere; (e) the Kennedy half dollar, because outside of the occassional use by casinos, those coins stopped circulating sometime around 1966; (f) spoons. because they are spoons.
(9) NEW DOLLAR COIN The Mint will offer a new dollar coin, similar in diameter, width, weight and color, to the British pound, as Britain has proven that a circulating dollar coin CAN work when it is well-designed, and if you can't beat them, join them.
Since I kind of went above and beyond in this, I think I'll copy in a new thread, I'm kind of interested in seeing what evolves --(I realize that some aspects, especially the coins I suggest be terminated, will not be viewed by everyone the same way - gold buffalos are probably popular, and the presidential dollars probably have a following).
The number of mint products will self correct. These things go in cycles. There will come another time like the mid-1960s or late 1940s where there was virtually nothing for collectors being sold by the mint. Enjoy the good times while they last.
Collect what you like. Don't worry about what other people like. Enjoy the hobby.
Yes, there is. All of the seigniorage on coin production and the profits from retail sales is credited to the US Treasury. The same applies to the BEP production and sales. Both sell multiple versions of their products to customers, generally in response to customer demand.
The Mint and BEP have to ask for annual appropriations from Congress for operating expenses.
I want it, and can't afford it. I ended up buying the 2008 Commerative Half Dollar, and it will be all I get from the mint this year. If I had the money, I would have gotten more-but I would not have gotten everything they offer. There is slim to no chance I would have gotten any of the platinum or gold items they offer even if I had the money. They don't appeal to me enough to spend the money on them. But, if I had enough money, I likely would have gotten the regular proof set and may have opted for the proof half instead of the regular, and I likely would have purchased the 1 Dollar commerative as well. That likely would have been all I got, but it's not going to happen. I would not have purchased the satin sets they make, I just don't like them...but I would never presume to tell anyone not to buy them simply because I don't like them.
I have been interested in United States coins for maybe 20 years and never once even in the most fleeting of thoughts
have given an iota of concern to what the modern U.S. Mint does or why it does it and though I guess very little in this world should
surprise me I am a little surprised that anyone would, though apparently they do.
Maybe it's just mint sets and proof sets. They still offer them like they always have.
<< <i>Why the heck does this bother you. If you don't like all the offerings just pick the ones you like best and stick with those.
Maybe it's just mint sets and proof sets. They still offer them like they always have. >>
Well said. We can pick and choose what we want from the Mint offerings and pass on the rest. Clearly the Mint's production is driven by profit and they will push it as far as the market will bear. If collectors do not buy their products the Mint learn and cut back.
Any new collectors brought to the hobby by what may now seem to be "modern junk" could easily move into more classic coins once they are hooked. Since my newest coin is dated 1947 the Mint can offer anything they want at any price - its just amusing.
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/gold/liberty-head-2-1-gold-major-sets/liberty-head-2-1-gold-basic-set-circulation-strikes-1840-1907-cac/alltimeset/268163
Why I think "Don't buy them" is a not sufficient.
Yes, I know that no one is forcing us to buy what the Mint makes.
We can refuse to buy, but if that were to occur, what would happen? Those unwanted coins don't disappear. They are forever part of the hobby, duly recorded in our reference books as part of our numismatic heritage.
"Don't buy them" only avoids responsibility. Each product should be considered before it is made and, in some cases, someone should have said "don't make them," because once they are made, the damage is done.
"Don't buy them" doesn't work. Why? Because frequently, unwanted products become low mintage rarities and the value goes up. Knowing this, some among us will always buy; there will always be some demand. This isn't a private mint, which relies on market demand to keep the business going. This is the U.S. Mint. It can and does make coins without regard to profitability. There is no disincentive to make coins that don't sell. All of us, as collectors of US coins, are compelled to recognize and accept coins issued by the Mint as inherently collectible. This largely eliminates the disincentive that the market, via low sales, would normally provide to force the Mint not to abuse its position.
My proposed "Act", though written tongue-in-cheek as if it was a piece of legislation, is simply a list of ways I think the Mint could better serve us as collectors. Some apparently think that is not the job of the Mint, and that we should just pick or choose from the many crumbs now available from its table. I disagree. Much of what I wrote boils down to this:
1. Keep markups on rolls and bags reasonable.
2. Quit offering us the same coins dressed up in different packages.
3. Stop with the gimmicks. Reverse proofs, burnished coins, matte finishes, tossing a "w" mintmark on for fun... this is happening more and more, not because there's a demand by collectors for it, but as a way to force some of us to spend more.
4. Tell us what the final mintages are within a reasonable time of stopping production.
5. Give us a heads up before you pull the plug on what's available. Don't just do it and leave us scratching our heads.
I'm sure that others have their own ideas. What surprises me is how many seem more bothered that I might say "enough already." I can't be the only collector bothered by the fact that the Mint is abusing its position in its relationship with us, and seems to have lost sight of the historical significance of its position.
I don't collect everything that the Mint makes, but as a collector of U.S coins, I certainly have a present and continued interest in everything that our Mint produces. You should too. "If you don't like it, don't buy it" doesn't change that once a coin is issued by the Mint, we're stuck with it regardless. As collectors, and people who care about coins and U.S. coins in particular, we SHOULD be pointing out to Mint, the sole supplier of what we collect, and the caretaker of our numismatic history, things that should be different. Granted, there will be different opinions about which issues have merit, or what should or shouldn't be produced.
But who could disagree that the price for rolls and bags is ridiculous? Those aren't specialty items. What possibly justifies the markup?
Who could disagree that the Mint should provide mintage figures within 6 months of the end of production? Once production stops, all the data should be there. Do those numbers become more accurate over time? When many modern coins have mintages of 5,000 and 20,000, what is taking so long? For precious metal coins, I'd expect that there would be controls in place and accountability at every step of the way.
Things can be better, they should be better, and we should encourage the Mint to make them better.