Some grading help

jswieton · July 5, 2008 7:26AM

I was thinking about cracking these two cards and sending them to PSA. How much lower of a grade do you think they will get?

bobbybakeriv · July 5, 2008 7:36AM

I would guess 6 and 7 respectively. Just a guess.

WinPitcher · July 5, 2008 7:36AM

The Rice looks like a 5 and the Bonds a 6 or 7.

Steve

lsutigers1973 · July 5, 2008 7:36AM

The Bonds looks to be at best a PSA 8 which makes it just as worthless as it is in the MintGrading holder. The Rice looks to have a soft or dinged corner or two and way OC L/R on the back. I would say it is only in the PSA 5 range at best. If you are planning on selling them, the Rice is probably worth more in the BCCG holder.

brianwintersfan · July 5, 2008 7:38AM

I just cracked and submitted some Favre BCCG 10's as a little experiment to see how they would cross. With these I wouldn't bother.

lsutigers1973 · July 5, 2008 7:38AM

Steve, great minds think alike. You posted my thoughts as I was typing them.

mickeymantle24 · July 5, 2008 7:45AM

I guess is Rice 5.5 and the Bonds maybe a 6?

Estil · July 5, 2008 7:49AM

That Rice would be lucky to get a 6. Please explain to me again the point of BCCG? I would say the Bonds should have a shot at an 8 but I don't know about that top edge on the back side...

Boopotts · July 5, 2008 7:53AM

The Rice is probably a seven. The people who tend to harp on BCCG are generally the people who've had the least amount of experience with their products. I've submitted many, many cards through BCCG and have found that on the average the grade they give the card is the same as that which PSA would give it.

If you don't believe me then you should crack 100 Jordan RC's out of PSA 8 holders, send them to BCCG, and sell them each for $1200 when they all come back BCCG 10's. It's a quick $60K for anyone who thinks 'BCCG is garbage'.

WinPitcher · July 5, 2008 7:55AM

Boo you are kidding right? Did you even bother to look at the corners on the Rice?

3 of them have problems and that equals PSA 5

Oh and by the way BCCG is garbage.

Steve

lsutigers1973 · July 5, 2008 7:55AM

PSA 7 on the Rice? You have got to be kidding? At best it is probably a PSA 6 OC. Do you not even see the two dinged corners?

Edit: Once again Steve you were posting as I was typing. Notice how similar the responses?

WinPitcher · July 5, 2008 7:57AM

lol Yup.

Steve

thriller13 · July 5, 2008 8:54AM

7 to 7.5 on Bonds
5 or a 6 on Rice

Leiascards · July 5, 2008 9:07AM

I agree with Boo on BCCG to an extent I was looking at some cards the other day and PSA 8s were getting beaten right and left by BCCG 9 and 10s in price. If you wanted to make some quick money in buying decent raw cards BCCG would be the way to go.

You can buy raw Gwynn rookie for less than 10.00 all day long and sell them like this

Text

There is another BCCG 10 Gwynn with a bid at 49.99

2 PSA 9 Gwynns sold for 49.99 recently

Leiascards · July 5, 2008 9:07AM

No higher than a 6 on the Rice and 8 on the Bonds though.

otwcards · July 5, 2008 9:14AM

PSA 6 on the Rice
PSA 7 on the Bonds

I wouldn't bother to crack either.

While I can't stand the BCCG product, I tend to agree with Potts in the respect that "nice" PSA 8 Jordan RC's would bring back a positive return in the BCCG 10. Now, could you flip 100 of them? Doubtful, but he's not too far off base in his thinking.

Now, if he were to suggest buying BCCG 10's (MINT or Better) with the intent to get them in PSA 9 holders, I would be the first to tell him he's off his rocker.

Boopotts · July 5, 2008 9:53AM

<< Boo you are kidding right? Did you even bother to look at the corners on the Rice?

3 of them have problems and that equals PSA 5

Oh and by the way BCCG is garbage.

Steve >>

BCCG is garbage? Fantastic. Jordan RC's in PSA 8 sell for about $600. BCCG 10's sell for about $1100-$1200. This should be a great opportunity for you to make a 100% profit on each Jordan PSA 8 you can get your hands on.

WinPitcher · July 5, 2008 10:04AM

Geez I wonder how many of those BCCG 10's would actually get into a PSA 8 holder.

I doubt that it would be 100 for 100.

yeah boo you said that 2x now. If you say it 3x it makes it fact?

Steve

Boopotts · July 5, 2008 10:08AM

<< PSA 7 on the Rice? You have got to be kidding? At best it is probably a PSA 6 OC. Do you not even see the two dinged corners?

Edit: Once again Steve you were posting as I was typing. Notice how similar the responses? >>

Aside from centering issues I am always much more inclined to trust the flip than I am the scan. Some guy came on here about a year and a half ago with a '63 Fleer checklist that he 'swore' was mint. I (and others) looked at the scan, assured him it was a 7 or at best an 8, and a month later the card comes back... a 9.

Also, like I said, BCCG does a fairly accurate job. If they didn't do an accurate job the would be arbitrage opportunities available for knowledgeable collectors and dealers, and guys like Bret Toman would be scooping up key RC's in PSA 8 and making a fortune selling them in BCCG 10 slabs (since many key RC's in BCCG 10 sell for about the same as a PSA 9 of the same card). You can make your own decisions, but I'm far more inclined to trust the market's opinion than the opinion of yahoos who've collectively probably submitted fewer than 25 cards to BCCG for grading.

As far as the scan issue goes, take a look at the following cards. All just came back from PSA. What do you think they graded?

Leiascards · July 5, 2008 10:09AM

I smell an experiment coming up.

Boopotts · July 5, 2008 10:11AM

<< Geez I wonder how many of those BCCG 10's would actually get into a PSA 8 holder.

I doubt that it would be 100 for 100.

yeah boo you said that 2x now. If you say it 3x it makes it fact?

Steve >>

Run some numbers, then. How many need to crossover to make it worth your while? And it was a fact the first time I said it-- if you think BCCG is 'garbage', and that their cards are over graded, then you have a fantastic money making venture laid out for you right here. Quit screwing around on these boards and start making the most of it.

WinPitcher · July 5, 2008 10:14AM

I have no idea but if they were in BCCG holder they would grade 'near mint or better'

whatever that means.

Crap in crap out, and this yahoo does not have to submit cards to BCCG to know they are crap. Ever see the grade EX or better?

Yes, just like anything certain cards can be found in any holder and transferred to another and money made, however
it is silly to say that 100 PSA 8 cards of anyone can be transferred to BCCG and score a 10.

I can't believe we are even having this discussion, the Rice card which BCCG claims is Near mint or better has 1 sharp corner!

Steve

WinPitcher · July 5, 2008 10:16AM

How many need to crossover to make it worth your while?

Ahhh none, I'm not about to waste my time with garbage, what part of that don't you understand?

Steve

WinPitcher · July 5, 2008 10:24AM

If you don't believe me then you should crack 100 Jordan RC's out of PSA 8 holders, send them to BCCG, and sell them each for $1200 when they all come back BCCG 10's. It's a quick $60K for anyone who thinks 'BCCG is garbage'.

Geez Boo if it is so easy why haven't you done it?

Steve

swartz1 · July 5, 2008 10:27AM

tic tac toe three in a row...

WinPitcher · July 5, 2008 10:33AM

Yeah well the questions must have gotten too tough for him.

He never did answer my original question.

Steve

WinPitcher · July 5, 2008 12:32PM

Boo if I do this who do i sell these cards too? Ignorant buyers that have no idea?

Hint to Boo it is called grade inflation.

Sincerely,

Yahoo

Boopotts · July 5, 2008 1:20PM

I won't fight about it. The reason why I haven't done it is because it can't really be done; a BCCG 10 and a PSA 9 sell for basically the same price because they're basically the same card. In other words, they're grade equivalents. I've crossed (or tried to cross) a lot of cards from PSA to BCCG, and my results have been almost exactly on par with what I would expect if I cracked those same cards and sent them back to PSA for another look.

In any case, readers of this thread can decide on their own which of our opinions they should take seriously. I've submitted at least a hundred cards to BCCG, you've (I think) submitted none. Who's probably the authority?

WinPitcher · July 5, 2008 10:07PM

The reason why I haven't done it is because it can't really be done.

Some authority.

Basically all you said then was BS. If it could be done you would have done it.

Typical of you.

Now it is a BCCG 10 and a PSA 9 are equals, yesterday it was a PSA 8.

The bottom line is you really have no idea, and that BCCG is so far out of wack
that a PSA 6 could possibly get into a BCCG 10 holder.

Tell us Boo why do the Beckett submitters use BVG over BCCG?

Why is it that they send only the junk to BCCG?

Steve

WinPitcher · July 5, 2008 10:19PM

LOL I'm still laughing my arse off on Boo's last reply

Boo of course if you send in PSA 9's they will get BCCG 9 or possibly 10 grades
What about those people that send in what would be Psa 6's and 7's that get the 9's and 10's from BCCG?

Surely you have seen such cards? lol,

And Boo 100 cards is really no sample even you should know that.

Now repeat after me Boo, 'BCCG is Garbage'

Steve

diamondman · July 5, 2008 11:50PM

Hello Boo, my guess on the 71 topps PSA graded.
Brinkman - PSA 7.5
Taylor - PSA 7
Zepp - PSA 8
Briles - PSA 8.5
Expos RCS PSA 8
Stange - PSA 8

how did I do?

CDsNuts · July 6, 2008 12:32AM

Steve, you're not understanding what Boo is saying. His argument is that if BCCG overgrades as badly as you say, then you should be able to crack PSA 8s all day long and pull 10s in BCCG and make a lot of money. Boo's argument is that they don't overgrade as badly as you think because every dealer and their brother would be doing that.

My personal opinion is that BCCG overgrades by about one grade on average, so a PSA 8 will usually end up in a BCCG 9 slab. The realized market prices reflect this as well. What I'm not sure about is how rigorously they screen for trimmed or altered cards. Whether their grading service is garbage is one's personal opinion, but there is a pretty good market for BCCG cards so not everyone shares that opinion. You will not see a Montana RC in a BCCG 9 slab sell for $30 like you would in a PRO or GEM holder.

WinPitcher · July 6, 2008 1:05AM

Lee I understood perfectly well what he was saying, I just ain't buying it.

People who pay top dollar for cards in BCCG holders almost always lose out.

If Beckett didn't own them they would be as good as PRO.

They have the Beckett name behind them.

I agree certain BCCG cards are properly graded, I have a problem with the ones graded EX or better and Near mint or better.

Steve

WinPitcher · July 6, 2008 1:14AM

2 years ago on the PSA registry forum Boo said the following:

oopotts
Expert Collector

Posts: 4324
Joined: Apr 2003

Sunday December 25, 2005 9:45 AM

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<< I'm not going to say the guy who bought the Flair AROD was a card specialist by any means. However, think about how decieving it is that every other "10" (or Pristine) that I know of is Gem Mint regardless of the grading company now you spit out something that has a 10 on the label I think it's poor in the respect that it will jade novice collectors who don't know any better.

Have you seen any other company come out with a second set grading tiers? I haven't.

I agree with you that there is a sucker born every minute. I feel bad about it because I have tremendous passion and truly enjoy the hobby. To see someone get taken bothers me.

Plus anything that's been peddled by KG is just annoying. >>

There was a demand for this kind of nonsense, so Beckett filled it. If you have an issue with anyone it should be with either a) the unscrupulous dealers who slab cards in BCCG holders with the intention of deceiving their buyers, or b) the throngs of misinformed hobbyists who like to see a '10' on the holder no matter what. BCCG was trying to take business away from GEM, PRO, etc., since it was the customers of these grading shops that they were courting. So in the end I think BCCG is probably a good thing if it helps marginalize companies who have a company policy of slabbing trimmed cards.

If anyone would be so kind and link this thread to that one I'd appreciate it.

edited to add: The thread title was: Thread Title: What is up with "BCCG"?
Created On Friday December 23, 2005 12:27 AM

Steve

CDsNuts · July 6, 2008 1:36AM

I don't think that the concept behind BCCG is the issue here. I think we can all agree there's no reason for the existence of a 2nd label grading company. The question is whether or not their grading service is accurate. Boo seems to think it's more accurate than most PSA groupies believe and I'm inclined to believe him if he's gone through the crossover process and has had decent results. There's really no motivation for him to lie about how accurate their service is.

WinPitcher · July 6, 2008 1:44AM

Then I guess he had change of heart then Lee as his posts in the thread I showed tells a vastly
different story.

Groupie? lol whatever.

Steve

WinPitcher · July 6, 2008 1:48AM

Lee of course people could take a PSA 8 or 9 and get a BCCG 10 or 9.

What about those cards that should be PSA 6's and 7's that wind up in BCCG 9 and 10 holders?

Steve

Boopotts · July 6, 2008 1:58AM

<< I don't think that the concept behind BCCG is the issue here. I think we can all agree there's no reason for the existence of a 2nd label grading company. The question is whether or not their grading service is accurate. Boo seems to think it's more accurate than most PSA groupies believe and I'm inclined to believe him if he's gone through the crossover process and has had decent results. There's really no motivation for him to lie about how accurate their service is. >>

Thank you. Again, I don't see what the issue is here. BCCG does a decent job of grading, and they do a decent job of weeding out trimmed cards. Or at least that's been my experience. If someone here has a different experience then please speak up-- if, however, you don't have any experience crossing BCCG cards to other holders (or very limited experience) then why sound off on an issue you know nothing about?

otwcards · July 6, 2008 1:58AM

Steve:

You're trying to equate an apple to an orange.

You understand Boo's point -- an apple. You understand that a BCCG will sell around a PSA 9 price on certain cards -- also an apple.

Give that you understand the apples, you can't claim that if there are buyers for the apples, that the apples will only sell to the buyers of oranges.

Given your premise that BCCG is crap, then even marginal PSA 8's should result in BCCG (MINT or Better) grades. Is this correct?

Given that premise and the fact that there are buyers (uninformed, naive, Beckett loyalists, or general idiots) for the BCCG 10's willing to pay PSA 9 prices, it would be wise, if you believe that NM-MT or worse cards end up in BCCG 10's to crack PSA 8's, submit them to BCCG, get the BCCG 10's and laugh all the way to the bank.

Now, Boo's challenge is that if your suggestion is true, why don't you, or others, do this on a regular basis. He suggests that it doesn't happen because BCCG is more accurate than you are giving them credit for.

Personally, I have a hard time with BCCG product and have witnessed a wide breadth of leniency. I won't carry them in my collection and if I did own any, I would refuse to offer them for sale. I have the same feeling from PRO, GEM, MINT, and the myriad of other basement services. I also hesitate to carry or offer anything by BVG or BGS that is prone to trimming and alterations. Hence the reason that you will rarely ever see me offer anything other than PSA and SGC cards for sale.

Boopotts · July 6, 2008 2:02AM

<< Steve:

You're trying to equate an apple to an orange.

You understand Boo's point -- an apple. You understand that a BCCG will sell around a PSA 9 price on certain cards -- also an apple.

Give that you understand the apples, you can't claim that if there are buyers for the apples, that the apples will only sell to the buyers of oranges.

Given your premise that BCCG is crap, then even marginal PSA 8's should result in BCCG (MINT or Better) grades. Is this correct?

Given that premise and the fact that there are buyers (uninformed, naive, Beckett loyalists, or general idiots) for the BCCG 10's willing to pay PSA 9 prices, it would be wise, if you believe that NM-MT or worse cards end up in BCCG 10's to crack PSA 8's, submit them to BCCG, get the BCCG 10's and laugh all the way to the bank.

Now, Boo's challenge is that if your suggestion is true, why don't you, or others, do this on a regular basis. He suggests that it doesn't happen because BCCG is more accurate than you are giving them credit for.

Personally, I have a hard time with BCCG product and have witnessed a wide breadth of leniency. I won't carry them in my collection and if I did own any, I would refuse to offer them for sale. I have the same feeling from PRO, GEM, MINT, and the myriad of other basement services. I also hesitate to carry or offer anything by BVG or BGS that is prone to trimming and alterations. Hence the reason that you will rarely ever see me offer anything other than PSA and SGC cards for sale. >>

Thank you, Scott. You obviously understand what I'm getting at.

IMExperience BGS and BCCG have undergone a pretty substantial change in the past couple of years. Both of these services used to slab and grade any card so long as it met the min size requirement, but they do not do that anymore, as I have personally had a couple dozen cards (A-Rod RC's, Clemens RC's, etc) that have measured up and still been rejected. I wouldn't want to buy an 'old label' BGS 9 (or 9.5) for a personal collection, but I would feel much more comfortable buying a card with the new label.

WinPitcher · July 6, 2008 2:05AM

He suggests that it doesn't happen because BCCG is more accurate than you are giving them credit for.

If he, or you, or anyone for that matter want to buy BCCG cards and resell them more power to you.

If he wants to cross his PSA 8 cards to BCCG 10's and take advantage of people I'm ok with that too.

Just please don't sit here and tell me that they are equals across the board they are not!

IMO and it is only my opinion I feel that they are no better then PRO. Just like Boo felt 2 yrs ago.

Steve

Boopotts · July 6, 2008 2:06AM

<< The reason why I haven't done it is because it can't really be done.

Some authority.

Basically all you said then was BS. If it could be done you would have done it.

Typical of you.

Now it is a BCCG 10 and a PSA 9 are equals, yesterday it was a PSA 8.

The bottom line is you really have no idea, and that BCCG is so far out of wack
that a PSA 6 could possibly get into a BCCG 10 holder.

Tell us Boo why do the Beckett submitters use BVG over BCCG?

Why is it that they send only the junk to BCCG?

Steve >>

I'd just like to personally congratulate Steve on making what has to be the most nonsensical post on these boards in 2008. I've read this three times now, and each time it keeps getting stranger.

WinPitcher · July 6, 2008 2:07AM

IMExperience BGS and BCCG have undergone a pretty substantial change in the past couple of years

geez Boo 20 posts in and you just now decide to mention this?

That explains it all. Thanks!

Im now a BCCG convert!

Steve

Boopotts · July 6, 2008 2:07AM

<< 

IMO and it is only my opinion I feel that they are no better then PRO. Just like Boo felt 2 yrs ago.

Steve >>

And the evidence on which you have based this opinion is.....

WinPitcher · July 6, 2008 2:08AM

And the evidence on which you have based this opinion is.....

Your very own words BOO!

Steve

There was a demand for this kind of nonsense, so Beckett filled it. If you have an issue with anyone it should be with either a) the unscrupulous dealers who slab cards in BCCG holders with the intention of deceiving their buyers, or b) the throngs of misinformed hobbyists who like to see a '10' on the holder no matter what. BCCG was trying to take business away from GEM, PRO, etc., since it was the customers of these grading shops that they were courting. So in the end I think BCCG is probably a good thing if it helps marginalize companies who have a company policy of slabbing trimmed cards.

Seems pretty cut and dried to me Boo.

WinPitcher · July 6, 2008 2:09AM

I thought your challenge was the most nonsensical post I have ever read myself!

Especially after you said it couldn't be done.

Steve

nam812 · July 6, 2008 2:14AM

I believe this is the thread Steve is referencing.

DrJ · July 6, 2008 2:58AM

WinPitcher · July 6, 2008 3:04AM

Yeah I find you boring Justin what else is new?

Steve

otwcards · July 6, 2008 3:10AM

<< He suggests that it doesn't happen because BCCG is more accurate than you are giving them credit for.

If he, or you, or anyone for that matter want to buy BCCG cards and resell them more power to you.

If he wants to cross his PSA 8 cards to BCCG 10's and take advantage of people I'm ok with that too.

Just please don't sit here and tell me that they are equals across the board they are not!

IMO and it is only my opinion I feel that they are no better then PRO. Just like Boo felt 2 yrs ago.

Steve >>

Steve:

I think I qualified my statement quite clearly with regard to the fact that I do not like, nor do I trust any Beckett product. I take offense that after I clearly stated such, you would lump me in with the folks that use or prefer to use Beckett services. I do not think I could've been any clearer in my statement.

Now, if only this thread could get back on point rather than running in tangent to the BCCG points that were originally made. It just appears that agendas have replaced the concept of rational thought and discussion.

Boopotts · July 6, 2008 3:16AM

<< And the evidence on which you have based this opinion is.....

Your very own words BOO!

Steve

There was a demand for this kind of nonsense, so Beckett filled it. If you have an issue with anyone it should be with either a) the unscrupulous dealers who slab cards in BCCG holders with the intention of deceiving their buyers, or b) the throngs of misinformed hobbyists who like to see a '10' on the holder no matter what. BCCG was trying to take business away from GEM, PRO, etc., since it was the customers of these grading shops that they were courting. So in the end I think BCCG is probably a good thing if it helps marginalize companies who have a company policy of slabbing trimmed cards.

Seems pretty cut and dried to me Boo. >>

My question was in regards to the evidence you have supporting your position that BCCG is a garbage grading company. As far as how my opinion has shifted, it should be obvious that it has, in fact, changed over the past couple of years, due primarily to the increase in experience I have had with BCCG in that time.

But, like I said before, I'd rather not get in an argument about this. You haven't provided any contrary evidence, so any futher discussion is probably going to degenerate into a silly episode of Internet name calling, which is something I'd just as soon avoid. I would like to say, however, to anyone out there reading this thread who has not had much experience with BCCG that in my experience the Beckett graders who handle this division do a pretty good job, and that if you can find any bargains in BCCG 10 or BCCG 9 holders you shouldn't feel reluctant to pull the trigger. By extension, please do not try to blindly cross PSA 8's into BCCG 10 holders. I've walked this road, and I can tell you first hand that it doesn't work.

In fact, just about eight months ago I made a move in this direction and bought up about 25 1994 SP A-Rods in PSA 8 and BGS 8 holders. I picked out the five cleanest examples, sold off the remaining twenty, and send the creme de la creme, as it were, off to BCCG, confident that they would all find their way into BCCG 10 holders. The results? Four BCCG 9's, and one evid. trim. The BCCG 9's have since found their way back into PSA 8 slabs, while the evid. trim card has gone from a PSA 7 to a BGS 7.5, then back to a PSA 7.

I've run similar experiments with 1980 Hendersons, 1982 TT Ripkens, and a few Walter Payton RC's, and so far all I've done is lost money (which is nothing new for me when it comes to flipping cards), so at this stage I feel pretty comfortable saying that BCCG is not the PRO or GEM division of BGS.

Edit to add: I have not, to date, gone 'all in' with a pile of PSA 8 Jordan RC's or Gretzky RC's, although I have been sorely tempted to pick up eight or ten of each and see what would happen. I think if you have a really good eye for high end PSA 8's you could make this work (it seems like Bret Toman has done well with this, although I can't say for sure), or even if you have a good eye for high end PSA 6's (which you could then, conceivably, get into BCCG 9 holders). But I don't have a particularly keen eye for grading, so I'm a little hesitant to involve myself in a project that would require the kind of financial outlay that this would require. But if anyone else wants to give it a shot please PM or email me and let me know how you do, since I would love to see the results!

Some grading help

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