1815 quarter with "E" counterstamp.. "mint made"?? Also, is this coin AU?
Baley
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So many questions about this coin, first, why is a counterstamped coin in an NGC holder? A mint state holder (coin looks au to me)
Finally, the seller's claim that the "E" counterstamp was Mint Made??
Link to auction
Don't get me wrong, it's a neat coin, but ???
Finally, the seller's claim that the "E" counterstamp was Mint Made??
Link to auction
Don't get me wrong, it's a neat coin, but ???
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
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however, I think that he is wrong about the E being mint made. Those were placed on a large percentage of that date along with the other letter counterstamp.
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Dennis
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Dennis
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There are actually several interesting theories regarding these counterstamps, but I am in the camp that says these coins were counterstamped as part of the Economite hoard found in Pennsylvania. I like this theory because of the number of examples that have been found in the general area of the hoard. Also, most of the counterstamped coins known are AU or better, suggesting that they were buried not long after being struck. Actually, I am babbling now, so I will just post this excerpt taken from a recent Heritage auction description:
The most plausible theory to date for the E and L quarters has just been published in the John Reich Journal. It is a long but well researched article, and we highly recommend it. In short, the author proposes that the Utopian community of Harmonists that lived around Economy, Pennsylvania used these coins as a method of voting during the time of The Great Schism in 1832. The community was divided between the original members who founded the colony in Economy in 1815 and those who wanted to take the community in a different direction, that faction being led by Count Leon. The vote was two to one against the Leon faction, which is the approximate ratio that we find the E to L counterstamps today. The coins are generally found in high grades, indicating short-term usage.
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Popular and scarce Mint made "E" stamped above the head of Liberty on this 1815 Bust Quarter. Well struck with lovely blue and rose toning. Very cool and popular variety of this tough series.
"variety"?
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
It should be noted that the JRCS has announced that, at their annual meeting at the ANA - San Francisco next week, they are asking any and all owners of these countermarked quarter dollars to bring their specimens to the meeting (open to any interested parties) for comparison and study. If you are really interested in these interesting countermarks, please plan to attend.
But the voting theory doesn't seem logical to me. If one was to prepare coins for the purpose of voting, wouldn't it be logical to prepare an equal number of each? Actual votes cast would be irrelavent.
On the other hand, if they were made by the voters in the voting booth, I would expect a wide variety of locations, strength, and orientations for the L and E stamps, which apparently isn't the case.
Maybe the folks who are about to see a wide selection of them soon will be able to shed some light.
Interesting coin and mystery, none the less.
One theory is that the coins were resting in a reverse die as the E or L was punched in, preventing a "flat spot" on the other side of the coin.
Mint made, or did the counter marker have a reverse die? Or some other method of supporting and cushioning the reverse?
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
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The coin mentioned clearly looks like it has wear on all the high points, AU-55 or AU-58 at best.
Tom
A lot of the theories about the counterstamps seem farfetched to me, but I can't come up with anything better. It's an intriguing mystery.
<< <i>There is at least one theory that the "E" and "L" counterstamps on 1815 and 1825 quarters are Mint made. Something about adjustments made to the presses and the counterstamps being used to identify the coins after striking.
There are actually several interesting theories regarding these counterstamps, but I am in the camp that says these coins were counterstamped as part of the Economite hoard found in Pennsylvania. I like this theory because of the number of examples that have been found in the general area of the hoard. Also, most of the counterstamped coins known are AU or better, suggesting that they were buried not long after being struck. Actually, I am babbling now, so I will just post this excerpt taken from a recent Heritage auction description:
The most plausible theory to date for the E and L quarters has just been published in the John Reich Journal. It is a long but well researched article, and we highly recommend it. In short, the author proposes that the Utopian community of Harmonists that lived around Economy, Pennsylvania used these coins as a method of voting during the time of The Great Schism in 1832. The community was divided between the original members who founded the colony in Economy in 1815 and those who wanted to take the community in a different direction, that faction being led by Count Leon. The vote was two to one against the Leon faction, which is the approximate ratio that we find the E to L counterstamps today. The coins are generally found in high grades, indicating short-term usage. >>
What Jade Coin said--see the JRCS JOURNAL--wish I had one!
<< <i>I would encourage anyone who finds the 'voting' theory for the countermarked quarters to be implausible to please read the article before rendering any opinion. It is one of the most thoroughly researched and well written articles that I have seen, and after reading it several times, I find it quite credible. It is quite lengthy, in two parts, and includes perhaps more information than previously available on the Economite hoard of half dollars and smaller denominations. We may never know the whole story on these interesting quarters, but it is always exciting to share in the dialogue and read of the research done by others. >>
The article in the JRJ is very interesting and supported by lots of research. I like the look of the linked quarter, but I agree with everyone that it doesn't appear uncirculated (NGC is known to certify these, but PCGS does not, correct?). As for the variety question: even though they are almost certainly not mint-produced, if I had the funds, I would consider these E and L stamped 1815s as part of a complete Bust Quarter collection--partly because they are so cool. (I would personally rather have a representative of this coin than, say, every variety from 1818.)
As for slabbing a counter-stamped coin, why not? Counter-stamped trade dollars are holdered daily.
Jim
<< <i>I do not agree with this coin being MS, looks to be maybe AU 55. The seller does handle some outstanding coins but I don't see this as being one of them. I also do not think NGC should be encapsulating counterstamped coins because they are truly damaged. >>
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
The most plausible theory to date for the E and L quarters has just been published in the John Reich Journal. It is a long but well researched article, and we highly recommend it. In short, the author proposes that the Utopian community of Harmonists that lived around Economy, Pennsylvania used these coins as a method of voting during the time of The Great Schism in 1832. The community was divided between the original members who founded the colony in Economy in 1815 and those who wanted to take the community in a different direction, that faction being led by Count Leon. The vote was two to one against the Leon faction, which is the approximate ratio that we find the E to L counterstamps today. The coins are generally found in high grades, indicating short-term usage. >>
Maybe the Economy side took an F punch overstamped the L to create more votes for the E side......or maybe I've been watching too many old cowboy movies...
for Eliasberg!
Steve
An authorized PCGS dealer, and a contributor to the Red Book.
Here is an NGC-62 1825 "L":
"Everything is on its way to somewhere. Everything." - George Malley, Phenomenon
http://www.american-legacy-coins.com
"To all -
Having researched the E & L quarters for over 30 years, I was fortunate to finally find some U S Mint documentation to validate the story for their creation.
The complex story, along with all of the first year's auction listings (1881 & 1882) will be presented in my Henry Voigt book, which is scheduled for release at the 2007 ANA.
For those interested, I firmly believe, based on evidence found in the National Archives, that the "E" signifies "Extra", while the "L" stands for "Louisiana" which is where most of the 1815 quarters went.
The complete story will explain it."
"Everything is on its way to somewhere. Everything." - George Malley, Phenomenon
http://www.american-legacy-coins.com
<< <i>From an August 1, 2007 post by Firstmint:
"To all -
Having researched the E & L quarters for over 30 years, I was fortunate to finally find some U S Mint documentation to validate the story for their creation.
The complex story, along with all of the first year's auction listings (1881 & 1882) will be presented in my Henry Voigt book, which is scheduled for release at the 2007 ANA.
For those interested, I firmly believe, based on evidence found in the National Archives, that the "E" signifies "Extra", while the "L" stands for "Louisiana" which is where most of the 1815 quarters went.
The complete story will explain it." >>
The compilation of actual Mint correspondence and early auction records regarding these E & L quarters in Karl Moulton's book is significant and valuable in terms of numismatic scholarship. However, I do not consider his latest theory to be substantiated any more than a few of the past theories put forth. His hypothesis contains a comparable amount of conjecture and speculation as some of the other concepts. However, Moulton's research is valuable in that he provides actual Mint records and other contemporary documentation from which others can piece together their own theories. For those attempting to do so, I can only say "good luck," as the E & L quarters will likely remain a mystery until a contemporary letter, contract, news article or something comes becomes available which directly tells the true story.