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Another investor /collector taken to the cleaners
jdimmick
Posts: 9,941 ✭✭✭✭✭
Today,
I had a Dr. come in today who had been meaning to come by for a few weeks. (I am still working on getting the word out that there is another source in town to do business) Anyway, he brings in an assortment of coins he purchased about 5 yrs ago from some dealer in Md.
2 seated half's, 1 trade $, 1 lafayette $ 2 better barber halves , several Morgans and also some Indian $10 gold's. All the coins were graded between Ms-62 and ms-65 in 2x2 by this firm. Not a single coin in the group graded Mint State, and most were cleaned!!!
To say the least he was shell shocked !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! about 3k worth of coins(at best) in which he thought he had about 17k
jim
I had a Dr. come in today who had been meaning to come by for a few weeks. (I am still working on getting the word out that there is another source in town to do business) Anyway, he brings in an assortment of coins he purchased about 5 yrs ago from some dealer in Md.
2 seated half's, 1 trade $, 1 lafayette $ 2 better barber halves , several Morgans and also some Indian $10 gold's. All the coins were graded between Ms-62 and ms-65 in 2x2 by this firm. Not a single coin in the group graded Mint State, and most were cleaned!!!
To say the least he was shell shocked !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! about 3k worth of coins(at best) in which he thought he had about 17k
jim
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Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Happens all the time brothers, ain't no sense in gettin' excited about it.
<< <i>From a dealer in MD? I'm shocked he wasn't from FL..... >>
He is a snowbird. He just got back from Florida this week and will return in Oct.
Rob
"Those guys weren't Fathers they were...Mothers."
Here is my favorite story...
Back around 1980 when my son was born, I was buying coins at auctions in NYC held by Stacks and Sothebys.
At a Stacks auction I bought an 1826 half dollar. It was listed as "AU." No numerical grades back then.
About four years ago, I took the coin to the Stacks booth at the Long Beach show, and said I wanted to sell it.
I was told by the Stacks rep that it was a "VG" coin.
"Very good," I asked, "when I bought it from you it was graded as AU?"
The Stacks rep responded, "grading standards have changed."
True story. I signed my name to this post.
www.AlanBestBuys.com
www.VegasBestBuys.com
<< <i>If it ain't slabbed by a big TPG firm you are at similar risk. >>
In this case this is true.
If someone is totally ignorant to coins then they should rely on the plastic to protect them.
Next question though has to be----what the heck kind of collector is this?
Sounds like an investor that decided to invest in something they know nothing about.
Should have invested in a bridge in Brooklyn instead.
Now if he was a coin collector OR a smart investor (willing to learn first invest second) he would not have to follow this logic.
But if someone is like this gentleman then they should ONLY buy plastic and leave the real coins to us collectors.
I know which camp I fall into
<< <i>From a dealer in MD? I'm shocked he wasn't from FL..... >>
I'm with you on this one
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
<< <i>If it ain't slabbed by a big TPG firm you are at similar risk.
Here is my favorite story...
Back around 1980 when my son was born, I was buying coins at auctions in NYC held by Stacks and Sothebys.
At a Stacks auction I bought an 1826 half dollar. It was listed as "AU." No numerical grades back then.
About four years ago, I took the coin to the Stacks booth at the Long Beach show, and said I wanted to sell it.
I was told by the Stacks rep that it was a "VG" coin.
"Very good," I asked, "when I bought it from you it was graded as AU?"
The Stacks rep responded, "grading standards have changed."
True story. I signed my name to this post. >>
While acknowledgeing and empathizing with your harrowing experience, and with all due respect, "If it ain't slabbed by a big TPG firm" hardly protets someone from overpaying for coins. Only through experience and the resulting knowledge can one hope to avoid such numismatic pitfalls, and I hardly think there is one among us who hasn't learned this lesson the hard way, myself included. Very truly yours...Mike
the 3000.00 was that what you offered?
Steve
Not true. Graders sometimes have bad days. I've seen a Seated Half in 4 right next to one in 5 in a dealer's case where the 4 was clearly the superior coin. The price spread here is significant.
Sometimes the quality gap between two coins of the same date / variety in the same grade -- graded by the same first world TPG -- is absolutely frightening.
Recently, I saw two 1814 Classic Large Cents. Both were graded by the same top tier TPG as 4 BN. One was a truly beautiful coin, which I thought was at the top of its grade. I told its owner that if he ever wanted to sell it, to please let me know. On the other one, Miss Liberty's face looked like she had the bubonic plague, I would have bagged the coin for environmental damage, and thought it a POS. The latter was a pedigreed coin.
"Seu cabra da peste,
"Sou Mangueira......."
A few years ago a slabbed MS66 rarer date seated half sell for $22K at major auction. A few months later it was in a 65 holder and sold for $7K. It never belonged in a 66 holder to begin with, and 65 was even a huge stretch. $7K realistically was for a 64 coin as a true 65 would have fetched $15K+ at the time. At the orig $22K price the coin was a lifetime burial. The coin was no less than 2 points off in grade. And in the 66 grade was finest graded by 2 points. This was the perfect coin to bury someone in a so-called "finest known" coin.
The pops "demanded" a high price, yet the coin was just terrible. Personally I felt it was a 63+.
roadrunner
<< <i>Can't be. The hobby isn't subject to fads or financial shenanigans.
Gardnerville, NV
=========================
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My uncle even has the very first Stradivarius violin ever made. No point in even trying to say otherwise.
Sometimes, when I run across this stuff, it is so bad that I simply will not make an offer to buy the coins. I have had good people hear the "truth" and then think I am trying to rip them off. I just do not want the bad karma. The irony of course is that the person who ripped them off is long gone.
<< <i><< From a dealer in MD? I'm shocked he wasn't from FL..... >> >>
I thought Newport Beach was in California???
Fighting the Fight for 11 Years with the big "C" - Never Ever Give Up!
Member PCGS Open Forum board 2002 - 2006 (closed end of 2006) Current board since 2006 Successful trades with many members, over the past two decades, never a bad deal.
<< <i>From a dealer in MD? >>
I can hazard a couple of guesses as to the identity of this dealer.
60 years into this hobby and I'm still working on my Lincoln set!
<< <i>
<< <i>From a dealer in MD? >>
I can hazard a couple of guesses as to the identity of this dealer. >>
Does this dealer sell coins from coast to coast?
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
That was my first thought.
and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
We have someone not very knowledgeable about coins buying from someone who overstates/overgrades/misrepresents coins. This can happen with raw or certified coins. Usually the individual is too busy or lazy or unable to figure out how to become knowledgeable about coins. The biggest problems seem to occur with coins having been cleaned or overgraded, or misrepresented as being rare (like 1880-S dollars in MS 63). There seems to be a big void between truly informed collectors and most of the general public. Most people think silver dollars and $20 gold pieces are rare. Mostly because they've never seen them. Go to any coin show of moderate to large size and you couldn't buy all the morgan dollars and $20 gold pieces for millions of dollars and probably couldn't even carry them all out without a fork-lift. That's not rare to me.
Add to this that most people that collect are doing so solo and try to keep low-profile both for security and pride. By the time someone decides to sell, they find out just how foolish they have been in terms of the economic loss they will sustain. If they don't care about the value lost then there's no problem, but most people I know who collect would like to see the value of their collection or accummulation increase over time. Certainly turning $17K into $3K is something most people would like to avoid, no matter how much satisfaction they have obtained from owning and hopefully studying their coins.
At the Central States Show in Chicago last weekend I heard a very tragic story of a collector who traded complete sets of proof barber quarters and halves in high-grade for a single "wonder coin." This coin was pumped up as a $300K coin. I know what coin it is and I doubt if it would sell for $70K. I call this the "Jack and the Beanstalk" trade. You really feel for people who make such foolish choices.
Peace.
Lou
ANA Life-Member
<< <i><< From a dealer in MD? >>I can hazard a couple of guesses as to the identity of this dealer. >>
I can bet it is NOT Julian Leidman!
Anyway, the other side of the story that everyone is familiar with, is when someone unknowledgeable DOES have something good, but is offered peanuts for it. One of the dealers here (in FL) recently returned from a regional show in Tennessee, where he had bought a nearly complete set of Barber halves in VF- AU. Yes, some of the coins had been cleaned or had other minor problems, but this is a tough set anywhere. The fellow had inherited it from his father, who had told him it was valuable and keep it for a rainy day. The dealer paid $1900 for it, a 'steal', but the fellow said this was about DOUBLE the best offer he had gotten from any other dealer on the floor! Some offers were as low as $500.
<< <i>What I don't understand is people will buy Consumer Reports and shop at 5 different stores when they buy a $1k TV, but when they make a $10k+ purchase in coins, they do it with no knowledge or shopping around. I mean, at least buy a Red Book. Maybe it's me, but if I buy anything worth more than $200, I research it a little. >>
In a case like this it may come down to grading, not pricing. An inexperienced person was sold coins graded MS-65 at fair price for MS-65--except the coins were cleaned AU's. A Red Book may not save someone under these circumstances.
<< <i>If it ain't slabbed by a big TPG firm you are at similar risk.
Here is my favorite story...
Back around 1980 when my son was born, I was buying coins at auctions in NYC held by Stacks and Sothebys.
At a Stacks auction I bought an 1826 half dollar. It was listed as "AU." No numerical grades back then.
About four years ago, I took the coin to the Stacks booth at the Long Beach show, and said I wanted to sell it.
I was told by the Stacks rep that it was a "VG" coin.
"Very good," I asked, "when I bought it from you it was graded as AU?"
The Stacks rep responded, "grading standards have changed."
True story. I signed my name to this post. >>
A couple of depressing stories today. But informative.
<< <i>I wish all the corrupt dealers were located in Fl because while I truly believe Fl is one hot spot for the evil doers there are a couple of other states that offer the same level of terrible service, let me name just one, NY, let me name another NJ. >>
You might as well start with the A's. There are a lot of "slugs" (as we call them) out there.
I repeat. He will NEVER, EVER go back and make the criminal dealer pay for his actions. I don't know why this occurs, but have seen it hundreds of times. People who get ripped off and don't hold the original seller responsible are ENABLERS and allow the crooks to prosper and rip off many new people. But it is much easier to try to sell the overgraded/overpriced coins to a new dealer and say all dealers are crooks and let the real criminal off scot-free.
New collectors, please educate yourself before spending money on coins; there are people who believe that using numismatic knowledge to rip the naïve is what this hobby is all about.
<< <i>If it ain't slabbed by a big TPG firm you are at similar risk. >>
There are also organizations that sell top TPG slabs at inflated prices to unsuspecting investors/collectors.
<< <i>
<< <i>What I don't understand is people will buy Consumer Reports and shop at 5 different stores when they buy a $1k TV, but when they make a $10k+ purchase in coins, they do it with no knowledge or shopping around. I mean, at least buy a Red Book. Maybe it's me, but if I buy anything worth more than $200, I research it a little. >>
In a case like this it may come down to grading, not pricing. An inexperienced person was sold coins graded MS-65 at fair price for MS-65--except the coins were cleaned AU's. A Red Book may not save someone under these circumstances. >>
I agree. When shopping for a car or a television, the make and model presented by the seller generally correspond to what you are reading in Consumer Reports. When buying a coin, the grade presented by the seller often does not correspond to the grades used by the Red Book.
<< <i>Jim, are you sure YOU weren't the one hosing this guy?
LOL, yeah, I'm sure. I just get tired of being called a crook for my "low" offers on cleaned, overgraded, common coins that people bought as rare gems. Yet the crook dealers who sold the overpriced coins never get called to the mat for their actions and prosper like mad. Some are even worshipped because they are successful and have a lot of money. Let me give you a hint- hiw did that big shot dealer afford his private jet, fleet of ferraris and bentleys and a $10M house afford all that? By selling accurately graded coins at a 5-10% profit? No, he sold swill at MS65 prices. And most of the people he ripped off still worship him.
I just don't understand people.
<< <i>I wish all the corrupt dealers were located in Fl because while I truly believe Fl is one hot spot for the evil doers there are a couple of other states that offer the same level of terrible service, let me name just one, NY, let me name another NJ. >>
That is a fact!!!
<< <i>
<< <i>If it ain't slabbed by a big TPG firm you are at similar risk. >>
There are also organizations that sell top TPG slabs at inflated prices to unsuspecting investors/collectors. >>
That is a good point. These days the scammers probably sell ten times the dollar volume in slabs as raw coins. Buying coins in plastic guarantees only so much. If the selling price is way out of line, as it is with most telemarketer firms and TV coin shows, it is a long way to a potential profit. The problem isn't coins, it is selling things as investment at high margin. The rule of thumb is that there aren't any good investments where the margin is 50%, 100% or 200%. The only winner is the seller/salesperson/firm. The investor often has to win the proverbial lottery just to get to break even.
<< <i>
<< <i>If it ain't slabbed by a big TPG firm you are at similar risk.
Here is my favorite story...
Back around 1980 when my son was born, I was buying coins at auctions in NYC held by Stacks and Sothebys.
At a Stacks auction I bought an 1826 half dollar. It was listed as "AU." No numerical grades back then.
About four years ago, I took the coin to the Stacks booth at the Long Beach show, and said I wanted to sell it.
I was told by the Stacks rep that it was a "VG" coin.
"Very good," I asked, "when I bought it from you it was graded as AU?"
The Stacks rep responded, "grading standards have changed."
True story. I signed my name to this post. >>
While acknowledgeing and empathizing with your harrowing experience, and with all due respect, "If it ain't slabbed by a big TPG firm" hardly protets someone from overpaying for coins. Only through experience and the resulting knowledge can one hope to avoid such numismatic pitfalls, and I hardly think there is one among us who hasn't learned this lesson the hard way, myself included. Very truly yours...Mike >>
Reputable TPG's get you in the ballpark, however.
Check out my current listings: https://ebay.com/sch/khunt/m.html?_ipg=200&_sop=12&_rdc=1
Know your series, know the common ways coins are altered.
Dan0---------------
First Place Winner of the 2005 Rampage design contest!
No, I think it was an accident. But four or five years ago, I actually heard a guy bragging to a friend at a show that he kept resubmitting a Seated $ in 4, and got it into a 5 holder on the 11th try. As a matter of first impression, if the coin came back as a 4 the first ten submissions, it should be in a 4 holder. An exception / mistake on a coin like this is a $20,000 or more exception / mistake.
On a with motto type coin, a nice 4 can be had for around $6K. I think sheet on a 5 of the same coin is around $25K, and since 5s are out of my league, I don't know what price one would actually bring. Someone with more money than common sense who bought the plastic on this coin would be as bad off as the guy in the original post.
Might add that because of the huge price gap on Seated $s between 4 and 5, there are lots of resubmissions of these coins. Continuing, most 5s I have seen (and I've seen a number of them) are in coffins, and probably got there in the manner I described earlier in this post.
"Seu cabra da peste,
"Sou Mangueira......."
<< <i>$17,000.00 for $3000.00 worth of coins. Now you KNOW why the grading services came into being. This happened all the time in the 70,s and 80,s. The services may not be perfect, but you WON't take losses like that because of grade. Steve >>
They'll just be overprices, or perhaps overhyped. (Both of which do happen with slabs.) Frankly, all that slabs have done are given the clueless a false sense of security.
Ed. S.
(EJS)
<< <i>I am not excited, I just posted so others know to be cautious who might otherwise think every dealer is reputable!!!!! >>
Thanks for reporting this. It's a good reminder for all of us (except the dealers of course).
<< <i>If it ain't slabbed by a big TPG firm you are at similar risk.
Here is my favorite story...
Back around 1980 when my son was born, I was buying coins at auctions in NYC held by Stacks and Sothebys.
At a Stacks auction I bought an 1826 half dollar. It was listed as "AU." No numerical grades back then.
About four years ago, I took the coin to the Stacks booth at the Long Beach show, and said I wanted to sell it.
I was told by the Stacks rep that it was a "VG" coin.
"Very good," I asked, "when I bought it from you it was graded as AU?"
The Stacks rep responded, "grading standards have changed."
True story. I signed my name to this post. >>
Even if it is from a big TPG you are at risk, I have learned how to grade the hard way and have had most of my NGC crossovers at PCGS come back 2 point or more lower than marked on the NGC slab. Have not tried the reverse way. I did try the same thing with the same results doing crack-outs instead of crossovers.
<< <i>
<< <i>$17,000.00 for $3000.00 worth of coins. Now you KNOW why the grading services came into being. This happened all the time in the 70,s and 80,s. The services may not be perfect, but you WON't take losses like that because of grade. Steve >>
They'll just be overprices, or perhaps overhyped. (Both of which do happen with slabs.) Frankly, all that slabs have done are given the clueless a false sense of security. >>
Hey Becoka,
You said:
"Even if it is from a big TPG you are at risk, I have learned how to grade the hard way and have had most of my NGC crossovers at PCGS come back 2 point or more lower than marked on the NGC slab. Have not tried the reverse way. I did try the same thing with the same results doing crack-outs instead of crossovers. "
Question.
You have/had the coins so what was the correct grade on these 2 point swing coins?
Did NGC overgrade by 2 or did PCGS undergrade by 2?
Did you pay less for the coin in the NGC slab so that it would equal the price (approximately) of what the coin would now be worth in the PCGS slab......or in other words.... a wash?