Discussion of Average circulated coins.
thestig
Posts: 769
How would you describe your expectation of AU raw coins?
I was wondering how AU graded, or raw coins could ever be distinguished from cleaned coins.
Since the term AU clearly states it is a Average circulated coin, the percentage of cleaned coins represents most of the entire population of AU coins that exist today.
Any expectation by the buyer to receive a coin that has not been cleaned should immediately be nullified.
Au coins represent the majority of cleaned coins, and if a seller was to describe coins as AU do you expect a grade?
In truth If its not BU a buyer should expect that it has been cleaned.
If you Get a BB is it the sellers fault?
Is average circulated a better depiction? do your expectations change over AU.
I was wondering how AU graded, or raw coins could ever be distinguished from cleaned coins.
Since the term AU clearly states it is a Average circulated coin, the percentage of cleaned coins represents most of the entire population of AU coins that exist today.
Any expectation by the buyer to receive a coin that has not been cleaned should immediately be nullified.
Au coins represent the majority of cleaned coins, and if a seller was to describe coins as AU do you expect a grade?
In truth If its not BU a buyer should expect that it has been cleaned.
If you Get a BB is it the sellers fault?
Is average circulated a better depiction? do your expectations change over AU.
Humblepie
I have found power in the mysteries of thought.
It is always a question of knowing and seeing, and not that of believing.
Our virtues, and our failings are inseparable, like force, and matter. When they separate, man is no more.
.
I have found power in the mysteries of thought.
It is always a question of knowing and seeing, and not that of believing.
Our virtues, and our failings are inseparable, like force, and matter. When they separate, man is no more.
.
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Comments
The majority of coins out there are not cleaned.
AU stands for About Uncirculated, and is not the average grade of circulated pieces.
If a coin is BU, that does not mean it hasn't been cleaned. If a coin is AU, it by no means signifies the coin has been cleaned.
<< <i>There are some major errors in your post...
The majority of coins out there are not cleaned.
AU stands for About Uncirculated, and is not the average grade of circulated pieces.
If a coin is BU, that does not mean it hasn't been cleaned. If a coin is AU, it by no means signifies the coin has been cleaned. >>
what is the average grade?
Is it true that AVERAGE CIRCULATED coin will range in grade from Good to Almost Uncirculated.
I have found power in the mysteries of thought.
It is always a question of knowing and seeing, and not that of believing.
Our virtues, and our failings are inseparable, like force, and matter. When they separate, man is no more.
.
but you can dig in and find the mean/average for most dates and
streaks of a series.
like for example a 1840-O half eagle. for some reason most left
average around 35-45 as a grade.
very few low grade examples are around as well as high end.
it just all depends.
If any coin is ever cleaned the average of uncleaned coins goes down. The term (Average circulated.)
These grading terms are a generalization of the condition of any coin on the market, or in circulation..
When looking at a coin one gives a general estimate of the coins condition. The expectations of a buyer should understand the terms, and what they represent.
In most cases we all have had at least one coin body bagged for being cleaned.
Therefore on average the expectations of ever getting a coin that has not been cleaned or rubbed in one way or the other is greatly reduced.
Is it up to a seller to point these facts out to a potential buyer, or should the buyer expect most coins in circulation may not ever get a grade, because of general terminology's, and a understanding of the term Average?
I have found power in the mysteries of thought.
It is always a question of knowing and seeing, and not that of believing.
Our virtues, and our failings are inseparable, like force, and matter. When they separate, man is no more.
.
Looking at them in there coin book I see 2 or 3 that appear to be uncleaned out of the entire set.
making the percentage of uncleaned coins far less then the average of cleaned coins in the set.
I have found power in the mysteries of thought.
It is always a question of knowing and seeing, and not that of believing.
Our virtues, and our failings are inseparable, like force, and matter. When they separate, man is no more.
.
Every coin is different. Weather it is a mint state 65,66,67,68. Or a EF40,45, or an F-VF20. Just because a coin has circulated does not mean its been cleaned. For the most part, I have seen more cleaned mint state coins than au coins. AU coins are some of the best coins for the money in some series. AU mean almost uncirculated.
Its all about the specific coin. Signs of cleaning are easy to spot if you know what your looking for. Some cleaning is not frowned upon, i.e. dipping to a certian extent.
AU designations have #'s too if the person knows how to grade. AU50-53-55-58. Not all AU coins are cleaned problem coins. Some maybe, but probably just as many mint state coins are too.
<<I have a compete set of Franklin's, all were average circulated coin ranging from good to AU.
Looking at them in there coin book I see 2 or 3 that appear to be uncleaned out of the entire set.
making the percentage of uncleaned coins far less then the average of cleaned coins in the set. >>
Did you buy this set already put together, build it yourself? If you did buy it already put together, why did you buy it if they are all cleaned? If you put it together, try slabbed coins only. Not that thats any really assurance that your buying original skinned coins. Also, what are you seeing that says these coins are cleaned that you didnt see before when purchased?
Im just trying to figure out what you mean here.
Also looking for VF-EF Seated halves.
Sell me your old auction catalogs...
<< <i>Is it true that AVERAGE CIRCULATED coin will range in grade from Good to Almost Uncirculated. >>
Any dealer that sells coins in "average circulated" condition will be selling AG-Gs.
60 years into this hobby and I'm still working on my Lincoln set!
I was outside in sunlight when I looked at them, the majority of coins were average, therefore as the buyer I realized they were more than likely cleaned sometime in there life time. Average silver coinage, I didn't expect anything else.
Just dulled looking silver disks with dates. Under different circumstance were I was to seek the best coins I could find, generally this is what coin collecting is all about I would have looked for coins in mint state. Meaning as minted from the mint above avrage.
IMHO
I have seen bags of walkers with average circulation that appear to be in better condition, and preserved. Picked through yes but cleaned no.
On the other hand the majority of uncleaned walkers in a bag would come in very low considering how difficult it would be to get all the black gunk off of them. Even if they were harshly cleaned, An old blackish looking walker may have been cleaned more than once in its life time.
Again Expecting them to be average.
I have found power in the mysteries of thought.
It is always a question of knowing and seeing, and not that of believing.
Our virtues, and our failings are inseparable, like force, and matter. When they separate, man is no more.
.
In coin collecting we use whats known as the Sheldon grading scale. 1-70. Just because you bought silver for melt and it turns out cleaned, yes, that may be just you r "average" silver bullion. That doesnt make any and all circulated coin "average".
Also looking for VF-EF Seated halves.
Sell me your old auction catalogs...
Information from link provided They state anything below a 59 is considered circulated with the majority being by term generally, or average circulated.
The above grades refer to circulated coins only, and are meant as general guides only.
Standards can vary from type to type and sometimes even from date to date depending on factors such as design and striking standards. For instance, there is much more tolerance of missing parts of the date on Buffalo Nickels and pre-1925 Standing Liberty Quarters than on most other coins because the date is one of the high points of these two designs.
By definition, all circulated coins will have at least a trace of wear; as a result, no circulated coin may grade higher than AU-58.
link
I have found power in the mysteries of thought.
It is always a question of knowing and seeing, and not that of believing.
Our virtues, and our failings are inseparable, like force, and matter. When they separate, man is no more.
.
Where are you coming up with "Au coins represent the majority of cleaned coins, and if a seller was to describe coins as AU do you expect a grade?"
I personally like a grade on any and every coin I buy. Granted I grade them myself while looking at them. Some match up, some dont, some are cleaned some are not. If were talking raw coins, I have seen more BU coins(mint state) cleaned than AU. The AU coins I have looked at in hand have been for the most part, decent coins.
<<In truth If its not BU a buyer should expect that it has been cleaned.>>
I think an AU coin needs to be looked at individually and the determination be given then. Just because the coin has seen some circulation doesnt mean its cleaned. You have to remember, its money. Some of it was spent. Not all of it was plucked and saved by us collectors.
Also looking for VF-EF Seated halves.
Sell me your old auction catalogs...
<< <i>I understand buying silver coins for melt, but Im still not following you on average? Just because a coin is not mint state doesnt mean its average or cleaned. Has alot of early silver been cleaned? Some, not all. Does that make a coin thats circulated average? No. A coin can be extra fine 40 and be a p.q. coin.
In coin collecting we use whats known as the Sheldon grading scale. 1-70. Just because you bought silver for melt and it turns out cleaned, yes, that may be just you r "average" silver bullion. That doesn't make any and all circulated coin "average". >>
Ill give you an example im selling 1000 dollar face value of average circulated coins. the grades are anywhere from about good to almost un circulated. because of the age of these coins one would expect a certain percentage on average never to receive a grade because of one reason or the other.
1 cleaned coin in a bag still would bring the average of uncleaned coins down. Expecting the majority to be uncleaned would be illogical, on second thought the average of uncleaned coins would be far below your expectation of only getting the one cleaned coin.
Making cleaned coins highly likely in greater numbers than expected. So it should not be up to a seller of coins to point out the obvious.
most coins in average circulation, may or may not receive a grade.
I have found power in the mysteries of thought.
It is always a question of knowing and seeing, and not that of believing.
Our virtues, and our failings are inseparable, like force, and matter. When they separate, man is no more.
.
<< <i>I understand that. I see what you mean by average now. I was getting lost in how you were using the term I think.
Where are you coming up with "Au coins represent the majority of cleaned coins, and if a seller was to describe coins as AU do you expect a grade?". >>
My mistake for using the term the way I did, generalizing AU coins as the majority of coins.
They do however represent a percentage of coins by general terminology, being average circulated coins.
I have found power in the mysteries of thought.
It is always a question of knowing and seeing, and not that of believing.
Our virtues, and our failings are inseparable, like force, and matter. When they separate, man is no more.
.
Also looking for VF-EF Seated halves.
Sell me your old auction catalogs...
<< <i>
I miss used the term AU as being the majority of circulated coins.
But AU represents in general, a certain percentage of the average circulation.
I have found power in the mysteries of thought.
It is always a question of knowing and seeing, and not that of believing.
Our virtues, and our failings are inseparable, like force, and matter. When they separate, man is no more.
.
here is another persons point of view on the subject.
link
Based on this search most every one has cleaned at least one coin in there life. Average percentages of uncleaned coins is obvious.
Most coins have been cleaned.
search cleaned coins
I have found power in the mysteries of thought.
It is always a question of knowing and seeing, and not that of believing.
Our virtues, and our failings are inseparable, like force, and matter. When they separate, man is no more.
.
- Jim
link
I have found power in the mysteries of thought.
It is always a question of knowing and seeing, and not that of believing.
Our virtues, and our failings are inseparable, like force, and matter. When they separate, man is no more.
.
K S
True!!!
If I purchased a group of silver Washington quarters in average circulated condition. I would expect the 64's to be XF-AU, the 50-63 to be F-XF, and the 32-49 to be AG-VG based on the amount of years they were in circulation. The condition vice years in circulation is where the term "average circulated condition" comes from. I would also expect that NONE of the coins would be cleaned.
In statistics, mean has two related meanings:
* the arithmetic mean (and is distinguished from the geometric mean or harmonic mean).
* the expected value of a random variable, which is also called the population mean.
In the sense of a random variable, that being cleaned, or uncleaned, the entire population of coins is included in the average.
The population mean would always contain cleaned coins. Everyone that has ever bought a coin should realize it could have been cleaned, and not have to be told it may have been cleaned. GET IT? Cleaned coins is a factor of X.
For a real-valued random variable X, the mean is the expectation of X. Note that not every probability distribution has a defined mean.
For a data set, the mean is the sum of the observations divided by the number of observations.
So from a data stand point the number of cleaned coins is the observation.
There are many different descriptive statistics that can be chosen as a measurement of the central tendency of the data items.
The most common method is the arithmetic mean, but there are many other types of averages. The average is calculated by combining the measurements related to a group of people or objects, to compute a number as being the average of the group.
Out of 30 coins 4 on average were uncleaned, leaving more than 90 percent of circulated coins cleaned in this instance. If you expect circulated coins not to be cleaned, in one way, or the other your missing the point. Choosing to ignore the obvious does not rest on the seller. The expectations of a buyer to get uncleaned coins from circulated material should not have to be told, and if he does he should not place the burden of proof on the seller..
Link to term Average circulation. From a dealers stand point.
I have found power in the mysteries of thought.
It is always a question of knowing and seeing, and not that of believing.
Our virtues, and our failings are inseparable, like force, and matter. When they separate, man is no more.
.
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<< <i>
<< <i>I understand buying silver coins for melt, but Im still not following you on average? Just because a coin is not mint state doesnt mean its average or cleaned. Has alot of early silver been cleaned? Some, not all. Does that make a coin thats circulated average? No. A coin can be extra fine 40 and be a p.q. coin.
In coin collecting we use whats known as the Sheldon grading scale. 1-70. Just because you bought silver for melt and it turns out cleaned, yes, that may be just you r "average" silver bullion. That doesn't make any and all circulated coin "average". >>
Ill give you an example im selling 1000 dollar face value of average circulated coins. the grades are anywhere from about good to almost un circulated. because of the age of these coins one would expect a certain percentage on average never to receive a grade because of one reason or the other.
1 cleaned coin in a bag still would bring the average of uncleaned coins down. Expecting the majority to be uncleaned would be illogical, on second thought the average of uncleaned coins would be far below your expectation of only getting the one cleaned coin.
Making cleaned coins highly likely in greater numbers than expected. So it should not be up to a seller of coins to point out the obvious.
most coins in average circulation, may or may not receive a grade. >>
If I bought a $1,000 face bag of junk silver, I would actually expect to find more UNCLEANED coins than cleaned ones. 99.9% of the coins in a $1,000 bag are common dates with zero numismatic value above their bullion value. Therefore, MOST of the coins in the bag will probably be not cleaned. Cleaning of coins is most predominant in early type, mid to high grade, and key date material.
<< <i>Cleaning affects the entire surface of the coin whereas light circulation often involves just the high points and/or luster breaks in the field of the coin. >>
Whats the difference between cleaning and light circulation?
<< <i>How would you describe your expectation of AU raw coins?
I was wondering how AU graded, or raw coins could ever be distinguished from cleaned coins.
Since the term AU clearly states it is a Average circulated coin, the percentage of cleaned coins represents most of the entire population of AU coins that exist today.
Any expectation by the buyer to receive a coin that has not been cleaned should immediately be nullified.
Au coins represent the majority of cleaned coins, and if a seller was to describe coins as AU do you expect a grade?
In truth If its not BU a buyer should expect that it has been cleaned.
If you Get a BB is it the sellers fault?
Is average circulated a better depiction? do your expectations change over AU. >>
There is no way I want to read this entire thread as I got lost after a minute.
Am I to assume that you look at the grades of coins ---- G,F,VF,XF,AU,UNC----you picked out the grade AU and somehow assume it to mean "Average Circulated Coin" instead of the "About Uncirculated" term it really means?
<< <i>
Point taken. thanks for the reply, and opinions.
I was viewing a power sellers feed back with 100 percent feedback, very rare indeed.
selling circulated coins, never in his listings did he feel it necessary to describe coins with a number system, or feel it necessary to disclose a coin as being cleaned. I guess thats what im trying to say. Cleaned coins is common among all average circulated coins for sale.
linklink
I have found power in the mysteries of thought.
It is always a question of knowing and seeing, and not that of believing.
Our virtues, and our failings are inseparable, like force, and matter. When they separate, man is no more.
.
<< <i>If I bought a $1,000 face bag of junk silver, I would actually expect to find more UNCLEANED coins than cleaned ones. 99.9% of the coins in a $1,000 bag are common dates with zero numismatic value above their bullion value. Therefore, MOST of the coins in the bag will probably be not cleaned. Cleaning of coins is most predominant in early type, mid to high grade, and key date material. >>
I agree to a certain extent, If you were to clean a coin wouldn't you want to take it from "Junk bags" or would you want your first coin you clean to be a rare, or expensive date? Most collectors will have cleaned at least 1 or more coins.
I saw a thread were someone cleaned a Kennedy half dollar, and it was already in Mint state, he did get a higher grade even though it was cleaned. Practice, practice, practice gave him the ability to clean the coin, and get a better grade. But how many coins were rendered BB before that?
Common practice even among the dealers.
I have found power in the mysteries of thought.
It is always a question of knowing and seeing, and not that of believing.
Our virtues, and our failings are inseparable, like force, and matter. When they separate, man is no more.
.
Steve
so that issue does'nt really make sense, unless your fearful the mint is sending out a bunch of cleaned coins
also, to say that "average circulated" means "g - au" is pretty obvious. it's like saying the average live person is from 1 to 130 years old.
K S
Using AU and avarage circulated as synonyms is incorrect. Different coins have differing levels of circulation. Much Barber coinage is worn almost smooth; the US had somewhat less circulating coinage while that series was in circulation, so it saw heavy use.
Indian cents were well and heavily used; they are plentiful still in AG/G condition. Remember, for many yerars there was no or little premium to take these coins out of circulation.
The term average circulated is more of a marketing term used loosely buy coin sellers - for me, when I read it I gear up to see a well-used and often harshly cleaned POS.
Grades from AU50 to AU58 seldom indicate substantial wear, and are not indicative of intentional cleaning versus BU. Slight rub, just enough to disturb luster, all the way to subtle wear on high points are indicative of the grade. I daresay that many of us would be thrilled to be sold Barbers or seated coinage in AU that the seller priced as "average circulated".
Damage on a coin from cleaning is with intention; damage on a coin from circulation is without intention. At least that's how the TPG's see it. There is considerable overlap and none of us are right 100% of the time.
Check out my current listings: https://ebay.com/sch/khunt/m.html?_ipg=200&_sop=12&_rdc=1
<< <i>look, if a coins been cleaned, then by def'n it is "circulated". how could it of gotten cleaned if it did'nt get into circulation to start with?
so that issue does'nt really make sense, unless your fearful the mint is sending out a bunch of cleaned coins
also, to say that "average circulated" means "g - au" is pretty obvious. it's like saying the average live person is from 1 to 130 years old.
K S >>
Person buys PQ coin, cracks it out of holder, lightly cleans, resubmits , and get a higher grade.
I know it doesn't make sense, but it is very common practice.
I will admit to cleaning at least few coins from junk bags, They didn't get much better thats for sure. I even cleaned a BU Morgan, and it graded MS 64.
On the other hand I took a walker that was ms 63-65 and rendered it BB. would I do it again? Maybe.
On page one I mentioned I used the term AU incorrectly. I didn't mean that AU coins represented the majority of average circulated coins.
But the average circulation of coins may have been improperly cleaned, and or harshly cleaned both can get a BB.
I have found power in the mysteries of thought.
It is always a question of knowing and seeing, and not that of believing.
Our virtues, and our failings are inseparable, like force, and matter. When they separate, man is no more.
.
<< <i>There certainly are "Market Acceptable" coins on the market that have been dipped at some point but these aren't considered "Cleaned" since the surfaces aren't altered just ugly toning removed. Customs on coin collecting have changed over the years and what was once "Market Acceptable" may not be today. Cleaned coins will have hairlines from a coins being rubbed or the surfaces have been over processed causing them to no loner be "Market Acceptable". >>
Ah ha got ya.
I have found power in the mysteries of thought.
It is always a question of knowing and seeing, and not that of believing.
Our virtues, and our failings are inseparable, like force, and matter. When they separate, man is no more.
.
I wish you had, your approach of mixing statistical terms with numismatic terms is fundamentally flawed, and as I stated earlier, a group of "average circulated" coins should contain NO cleaned coins.
<< <i>" I give up,..."
I wish you had, your approach of mixing statistical terms with numismatic terms is fundamentally flawed, and as I stated earlier, a group of "average circulated" coins should contain NO cleaned coins. >>
Gotcha I see your point now, because they have low value close to melt, and if graded they are market acceptable even if cleaned?
I have found power in the mysteries of thought.
It is always a question of knowing and seeing, and not that of believing.
Our virtues, and our failings are inseparable, like force, and matter. When they separate, man is no more.
.
Are you writing a play, because this reminds me of "theater of the absurd."
whether a plastic co. calls it such is immaterial to your discussion. a coin's "grade" is an estimate of its value, not a evaluation of it's physical history.
K S
<< <i>Thestig, you're obviously an intelligent human being, but you seem to have a lot to learn in the way of coins, and you're going about it all wrong. You have this whole forum trying to help you sort out your many misstatements and make sense of them, but you're argumentative and way too wordy. Cut and dry logic has not a big place in the world of coins. We "feel" things more than look at straight numbers or formulae most of the time. You have to relax and trust us if you want to learn something. >>
Well said, sir.
Check out my current listings: https://ebay.com/sch/khunt/m.html?_ipg=200&_sop=12&_rdc=1
Crawls in hole and hides.
I have found power in the mysteries of thought.
It is always a question of knowing and seeing, and not that of believing.
Our virtues, and our failings are inseparable, like force, and matter. When they separate, man is no more.
.
Here's something to think about:
The US Mint washes each planchet prior to the minting process so technically speaking, all US Mint coins have been cleaned.
Once the coins leave the US Mint, they technically become circulated so I guess you could say, all US coins are circulated.
The name is LEE!