<< <i>Most if not all of yours are bought; so I guess you are not among that 6 or 7
edited to say: posers suk >>
Of course the nature of rare coins is that they are... ...well rare.
TDN didn't get many of his set in circulation or for free. >>
Yeah, but I'm willing to guess that TDN can accurately grade even his top-end coins. That goes ditto for me.
Also, I have probably more than a few coins in holders where the holder actually holds back the value of the coin since the grade is a bit conservative. How many of your 69's or 70's can you say that about...where you can break out the coin from it's holder and actually sell it for more than what the holdered grade would otherwise indicate? Let me answer for you....ZERO.
<< <i>My opinion doesn't matter a bit Griv, but it matters exactly as much as yours. >>
I think you miss the point. I'm not talking about opinion, I am talking market. When did you tune in?
Doogy, I'd like you to validate what you are posting because not only is it totally false but the fact that you are pushing this agenda makes all of your posts questionable. Just when I was thinking that nayb you were willing to consider someone rlse's views that you own. >>
how is it false? are your coins 'condition rarity' or 'true rarities' in your mind? Are you quite sure that the vast majority of the coins in your collection are static, in that there won't be any more collectors with these submitting them for grading, and thus greatly adding to the population reports?
Griv- don't get your back up. i'm not slamming what you collect; my point is to illustrate the differences in these two "brands" of rarity. One being more of a "real" rarity than the other because either all of the pieces have been fully accounted for, or close to it. You (and certainly I) have ZERO idea how many bullion coins are out there in private hands that are sitting in vaults, that are technical 70 grades but haen't been slabbed. If and when these coins come to market, the market will see the impact in lower values for the existing 70s. Not speculation, merely fact.
<< <i>DD55 - it was the 1873-CC and I paid $75k [appx] for it raw. I graded the coin a stone cold 65 the minute I saw it.
My record for a raw coin was about $220k for the James A Stack 1871-CC seated dollar. >>
which goes to show, there are certainly people out there like yourself that have the eyes and the willingness to confidently buy coins for this price. It happens in many other places too; just like that raw coins from Stacks a few months back that went SEVEN figures. you don't see too many raw $1M+ coins; the buyer obviously could care less that it was slabbed, and had an eye for quality.
Oddly enough, people paid real money for raw coins pre-1980's. OMG!!! Yes, really. And, people knew how to grade and pay for raw coins back then and they still do.
<< <i>Oddly enough, people paid real money for raw coins pre-1980's. OMG!!! Yes, really. And, people knew how to grade and pay for raw coins back then and they still do. >>
then came 1982. The Washington commemerative half-dollar hit the market, the first of many US Mint NCLT products to be churned out again by the truckloads.
Hoards of collectors found themselves huddled over loupes and stereo microscopes looking for the elusive 70s. After many sleepless nights of looking and arguing as to who had the true 70s, one finally proclaimed "hey, i'm sure we're all wrong! we have no independent company to spend a few seconds to grade it and put it into a shroud of plastic in an attempt to create a giant marketing tool !?!"
With this realization, all of the identical looking Washington halves remained locked at the same value and the same grade; unappreciated and wanting for homes.....................
<< <i>My opinion doesn't matter a bit Griv, but it matters exactly as much as yours. >>
I think you miss the point. I'm not talking about opinion, I am talking market. When did you tune in?
Doogy, I'd like you to validate what you are posting because not only is it totally false but the fact that you are pushing this agenda makes all of your posts questionable. Just when I was thinking that nayb you were willing to consider someone rlse's views that you own. >>
how is it false? are your coins 'condition rarity' or 'true rarities' in your mind? Are you quite sure that the vast majority of the coins in your collection are static, in that there won't be any more collectors with these submitting them for grading, and thus greatly adding to the population reports?
Griv- don't get your back up. i'm not slamming what you collect; my point is to illustrate the differences in these two "brands" of rarity. One being more of a "real" rarity than the other because either all of the pieces have been fully accounted for, or close to it. You (and certainly I) have ZERO idea how many bullion coins are out there in private hands that are sitting in vaults, that are technical 70 grades but haen't been slabbed. If and when these coins come to market, the market will see the impact in lower values for the existing 70s. Not speculation, merely fact. >>
So what? I have 3 coins to work through and I'm not excited about any of them. Well, maybe one but nonetheless! I am all over the place and if I like the coin then I will buy it. No sets, no nothing. I would advise you to PM me if you have aauction you want to win. I don't bid against my firends without a discussion first.
<< <i>My opinion doesn't matter a bit Griv, but it matters exactly as much as yours. >>
I think you miss the point. I'm not talking about opinion, I am talking market. When did you tune in?
Doogy, I'd like you to validate what you are posting because not only is it totally false but the fact that you are pushing this agenda makes all of your posts questionable. Just when I was thinking that [b[nayb you were willing to consider someone rlse's views that you own. >>
I can say that I am at least one of the 3 top authorities on the modern eagle series. DD55, you ain't one of the 3 or even of the 333, SHUT TFU IDIOT.
Nothing like a self-proclaimed authority. I submit that merely owning a %$&*load of MS70 graded bullion does not make one an authority on bullion or MS70,the grade.
Some advice,griv: You might be able to doff the dunce hat by being more humble. Keep bragging about how great you think you are and you will be staying in the dunce corner.
The measure of intelligence is the ability to change.
Albert Einstein (14 March 1879--18 April 1955)
<< <i>I can say that I am at least one of the 3 top authorities on the modern eagle series. DD55, you ain't one of the 3 or even of the 333, SHUT TFU IDIOT.
Nothing like a self-proclaimed authority. I submit that merely owning a %$&*load of MS70 graded bullion does not make one an authority on bullion or MS70,the grade.
Some advice,griv: You might be able to doff the dunce hat by being more humble. Keep bragging about how great you think you are and you will be staying in the dunce corner. >>
You say brag and I say defend. First I don't know anything because I'm a troll. Then I don't know anything because I've only been on this forum for less than 2 years, then I actually do know what I'm talking about so now I'm a braggard. I would ask that you question the motivation of ksteel of constantly attacking me, what I collect and what I post.
Do I see, Ken quit picking on Griv? No matter what that butthead says no one says a word. Same with DD55. Not a word said but you seem to have the time to call me out each and everytime I get ticked at the criticism. If I miss a key in a post, typing with my left hand at that, I get attacked. If my grammar is off, attack. If I post a thread, attack.
I've spent the week being very light-hearted and even had some fun with the attacks but a bad day at PT and a lot of pain and off the meds make one a little punchy. So screw it. You guys know everything to know about every single coin and everyone else is a troll or collects crap. There are a lot of really cool people here and I enjoy reading what they have to say. I read a lot more than I post and I've even come to appreciate other coins that I did not before. But there are a bunch of buttheads that do nothing but wait for whoever their favorite target is and looks to pick a fight.
What's worse is that the whole turtlevbd issue where he attacked me relentless, the same buttheads were right behind them. Not a word said to them. Maybe people are afraid they will get on the attack list as well. You guys are a sad joke.
I have said this a number of times before, and, so far, no one seems to have tried it. Go to a dealer and pick out 5 (or more) MS/PR 69's, and 5 (or more) MS/PR 70's of the same date/type. These can be PCGS or NGC, your preference. Cover the grades and mix them up. Using a loupe, pick out the 5 70's. You'll be suprised when you find that some coins in 69 holders are nicer than some coins in 70 holders! Then the question becomes: Can you grade better than PCGS/NGC?
Look at it this way; relentless attacks against any collectible is probably good for them. Claiming they aren't a collectible at all is good for their long term health. On this basis bullion coins should do very well in time.
What's not to like with them? They are comprised of the gold and silver that classicists say makes a coin a coin. They are made by the US mint which so many collectors deem necessary and they often come in extremely high grade. That their face value is a small fraction of their real value shouldn't rea- lly matter; will they collect them if metals crash to less than the face value? Of course not. These will never be real coins in many peoples' eyes just because they are manufactured as bullion.
Not to put to fine a point on it but a lot of the "hard money" folks are missing the point and a bet. What were their favorite coins when they were issued except exactly the same thing, denominated bullion. It was the definition of money though vast stretches of the past. If a coin wasn't worth its weight then it was no coin. More importantly is these silver and gold coins made long ago were certainly not designed to be collected. They were intended to fascilitate trade and to store wealth.
It's difficult to understand why the high quality of these is used as a club. Yes, it can be difficult to tell a PR-69 from a PR-70 but no one is going to tell me that classics can always be easily separated from two grades. There is a very narrow range of quality on proofs and many of the more recent mint state silver and gold also have a narrow range as well. So? If someone wants the highest grade aren't they still do- ing pretty much what other collectors do? Sure there are lots of the bullion coins set back in safety dep- osit boxes and vaults that will be hitting the market as time goes by. This will increase populations. A collector should know that this will happen. But perhaps collectors are betting on demand increasing at a faster pace than supply. Perhaps some are collecting them for other motives than profit anyway.
Personally I wish I had gotten into these when they came out. It was a sure thing that they'd be collect- ed if they continued in production for any lenght of time, but I was to busy collecting the moderns to get distracted by the bullion and most of the other non-circulating moderns and ultra-moderns.
I have enjoyed reading the various opinions and comments of this Thread. I can now state, with absolute certainty, that I can grade a 69,70 or any other grade,by number or description. It would not matter to me that it is PCGS,NGC, or any other alphabet entity. Thus, I must be one of the six or seven people mentioned in the Thread Title.I am making these true statements with the disclosure to all members that I will be absolutely, unerringly, positively, helplessly, sadly and lastly, WRONG. I can grade it, I just can't grade it right. Should you desire my opinion on any coin please pm me. I will be honored to give you the wrong opinion. With Respect and Pride, John Curlis
CladKing, the "problem" with mint state bullion coins is that first and foremost they are meant to represent a unit of a commidity investment, not a collectible. Both mint state and Proofs all come off the production line as essentially perfect 69+ and end up in consumer hands as such. A handful of consumers decide to plasticize the bullion and get a company to put label on them. Sometimes they come back as a perfect 70 but most times they come back as 69. The 69's and 70's effectively look the same as they should and as you might expect. The bullion in general is minted as perfect and has the same visual eye appeal, raw, 69, 70...whatever. Take away the registry and now you'll have a different playing field (like none).
Actually, there are a ton of people that are willing to call a coin a "70" submit it to PCGS and sometimes get lucky. Some happen to work for the services. Sometimes a second person will agree (becomes a 70), sometimes not (becomes a 69).
What's interesting is to revisit some of those "70"s that have been in holders awhile and see if anything has changed with them. Just make sure you get PCGS to review for a refund. Also, just because only 1 or two exist in a grade doesn't mean every single roll of coins has been slabbed and more might come out (and probablility says it would be likely depending on the outstanding numbers that have never been graded.
<< <i>CladKing, the "problem" with mint state bullion coins is that first and foremost they are meant to represent a unit of a commidity investment, not a collectible. Both mint state and Proofs all come off the production line as essentially perfect 69+ and end up in consumer hands as such. A handful of consumers decide to plasticize the bullion and get a company to put label on them. Sometimes they come back as a perfect 70 but most times they come back as 69. The 69's and 70's effectively look the same as they should and as you might expect. The bullion in general is minted as perfect and has the same visual eye appeal, raw, 69, 70...whatever. Take away the registry and now you'll have a different playing field (like none).
>>
I know that quality has improved markedly from the beginning but I don't believe it's nearly this high. The proofs I've seen recently are spectacular!
I see a lot of people buying this stuff and taking a pretty good look at it. They are popular on TV.
Other than this I just don't know much about these markets.
Prethen - With all due respect, if you truly believe even half of what you state, then can you please produce some 70's for me - it obviously must be that easy. I have a number of coins on want lists right now. These coins have been on want lists for months (some coins for years). Let's get together on this and you can make some nice cash as well to fund your classic coin collection. PM me and I can give you a couple 70's I need right away and how much $$$ you can "easily" make by slabbing them for me. It's that easy.
Wondercoin
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
<< <i>I can say that I am at least one of the 3 top authorities on the modern eagle series. DD55, you ain't one of the 3 or even of the 333, SHUT TFU IDIOT.
Nothing like a self-proclaimed authority. I submit that merely owning a %$&*load of MS70 graded bullion does not make one an authority on bullion or MS70,the grade.
Some advice,griv: You might be able to doff the dunce hat by being more humble. Keep bragging about how great you think you are and you will be staying in the dunce corner. >>
You say brag and I say defend. First I don't know anything because I'm a troll. Then I don't know anything because I've only been on this forum for less than 2 years, then I actually do know what I'm talking about so now I'm a braggard. I would ask that you question the motivation of ksteel of constantly attacking me, what I collect and what I post.
Do I see, Ken quit picking on Griv? No matter what that butthead says no one says a word. Same with DD55. Not a word said but you seem to have the time to call me out each and everytime I get ticked at the criticism. If I miss a key in a post, typing with my left hand at that, I get attacked. If my grammar is off, attack. If I post a thread, attack.
I've spent the week being very light-hearted and even had some fun with the attacks but a bad day at PT and a lot of pain and off the meds make one a little punchy. So screw it. You guys know everything to know about every single coin and everyone else is a troll or collects crap. There are a lot of really cool people here and I enjoy reading what they have to say. I read a lot more than I post and I've even come to appreciate other coins that I did not before. But there are a bunch of buttheads that do nothing but wait for whoever their favorite target is and looks to pick a fight.
What's worse is that the whole turtlevbd issue where he attacked me relentless, the same buttheads were right behind them. Not a word said to them. Maybe people are afraid they will get on the attack list as well. You guys are a sad joke. >>
Maybe if you would get that target off of your mouth, the attacks, , would cease!
I know it's really hard for you, but every once in a while stop and think!
WC, I think you missed my point. Modern minting standards can produce so-called 70's like candy today. You might be assuming that just because a coin is in a 69 holder, it couldn't just have easily been called a 70 in many cases. Oddly enough, if someone can easily identify supposedly why a coin is in a 69 holder, then chances are it ain't a 69.
Based on what you're asking, I assume you think I can pop up with a 1875 3CN MS70. Let's just say that ain't going to happen. Or, perhaps trying to find a "perfect" coin before the services came out with their nice protective slabs. That's a toughy too, but can happen.
I'm not in the business of gambling on rolls of modern bullion to see if one has a one less tick than another. Nor do I care. The funny thing is once that 70 is in holder, it becomes near impossible (especially due to holder imperfections) to tell the difference from a properly graded 69. I ask again...what's the point if you can't see a difference without a microscope?
here is something Prethen brought up that i think many can agree with. The current plastic that PCGS and NGC uses is prone to scratches, especially tiny hairline scratches. I've noticed more than a few times that a 70 grade is tough to evaluate in the slab, without doing "eye gymnastics" as one poster said. heck, the two services won't even cross a 70 without taking it out of the holder for this reason.
If PCGS and NGC are going to continue to award the coveted 70 grades to coins, why not offer an optional slab made of optical grade polycarbonate that is not only less prone to hairlines, but optically better for looking at and for use in photography?
As Wondercoin has alluded to, all these rare bullion coins are headed to "melt" value as gold continues to climb. It does require more thought on the rare coins vs. bullion debate when bullion alone is outperforming much of the Rare Coin Market.
Roadrunner - Do you think it is true from your personal experiences that many classic gold coins (to name just one type of coin) can come back one day in an MS64 holder and then MS65 or even MS66 another day (with the single point price differences being many, many multiples of a typical MS70 vs. MS69 price premium). If the answer to this question is "yes" - then isn't all this comtempt for the 70 grade expressed by some here truly a distinction without a difference? Wondercoin
Not contempt at all for the MS70 vs. MS69. It is fact more concern for the entire grading paradigm, classics and moderns included. A personal experience of mine when a classic $10 Lib gold coin achieved successive grades of 64, BB, BB, 66. It's clear that I agree with your thoughts above. The range of pricing on this went from $2700 to $1800 to $5500, all in about 2 years. The price difference from 69 to 70 is often 5X, 10X, 100X. The gold coin was worth no less than $1800 even in its raw state. And if put up at auction raw, I'd have bet money it would have fetched 65 money ($3800 at the time). I actually sent the above coin to auction raw figuring it would sell for what it was worth, imo 65 money. But the auction house slabbed it without my knowledge and got that grade.
The 69 to 70 coin is one of essentially absolute perfection which is far different than a few less marks from 64 to 66. The difference from 67 to 68, or 68 to 69 on an ASE/AGE is probably readily discernible to most experienced MS graders of any series. What I don't believe is readily discernible or repeatable is the 69 to 70. If that 70 coin can be mixed into a random group of 50/50 MS69's/70's and pulled out 70-90% of the time by a TPG as MS70, then I will concede the MS70 grade makes sense. I'd love to see such a test. Using random 70's is important since we don't want to pick the most PQ or LQ specimens that would skew results.
"A personal experience of mine when a classic $10 Lib gold coin achieved successive grades of 64, BB, BB, 66. It's clear that I agree with your thoughts above. The range of pricing on this went from $2700 to $1800 to $5500, all in about 2 years. The price difference from 69 to 70 is often 5X, 10X, 100X."
RR - It might surprise you to know that at this point, the entire 1997-2007 complex of Proof Platinum coins (not using an isolated coin date to either prove or disprove a point, but looking at every single coin in the entire set) does not have a price difference from 69 to 70 of 5x, 10x, 100x, but, rather between 2x-3x. In other words, I can sell any entire PR69DC Plat set at "x" or sell the entire date run in PR70DC at less than "3x". This, then, is no different a multiple than that $10 Lib Gold coin you mentioned that is an MS64 one day, BB the next and MS66 the next day and trades at 3x the base price depending upon what day it is.
My point here is not to argue the PR70DC Plats are good value or horrible value at present levels, but, to show that the "game" is no different between 69 and 70 grade as it is between 64 and 65 or 65 and 66 grade or even 64 -66 grade on other coin series today - even very classic coins. You've got very smart coin dealers and collectors "working" every grade level on nearly every coin series for that "one point" and to achieve the goal that every coin is either totally maxed out in grade at present or will soon be if these guys have anything to do with it.
Wondercoin
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
Comments
<< <i>
<< <i>Most if not all of yours are bought; so I guess you are not among that 6 or 7
edited to say: posers suk >>
Of course the nature of rare coins is that they are... ...well rare.
TDN didn't get many of his set in circulation or for free. >>
Yeah, but I'm willing to guess that TDN can accurately grade even his top-end coins. That goes ditto for me.
Also, I have probably more than a few coins in holders where the holder actually holds back the value of the coin since the grade is a bit conservative. How many of your 69's or 70's can you say that about...where you can break out the coin from it's holder and actually sell it for more than what the holdered grade would otherwise indicate? Let me answer for you....ZERO.
<< <i>
<< <i>My opinion doesn't matter a bit Griv, but it matters exactly as much as yours. >>
I think you miss the point. I'm not talking about opinion, I am talking market. When did you tune in?
Doogy, I'd like you to validate what you are posting because not only is it totally false but the fact that you are pushing this agenda makes all of your posts questionable. Just when I was thinking that nayb you were willing to consider someone rlse's views that you own. >>
how is it false? are your coins 'condition rarity' or 'true rarities' in your mind? Are you quite sure that the vast majority of the coins in your collection are static, in that there won't be any more collectors with these submitting them for grading, and thus greatly adding to the population reports?
Griv- don't get your back up. i'm not slamming what you collect; my point is to illustrate the differences in these two "brands" of rarity. One being more of a "real" rarity than the other because either all of the pieces have been fully accounted for, or close to it. You (and certainly I) have ZERO idea how many bullion coins are out there in private hands that are sitting in vaults, that are technical 70 grades but haen't been slabbed. If and when these coins come to market, the market will see the impact in lower values for the existing 70s. Not speculation, merely fact.
My record for a raw coin was about $220k for the James A Stack 1871-CC seated dollar.
<< <i>DD55 - it was the 1873-CC and I paid $75k [appx] for it raw. I graded the coin a stone cold 65 the minute I saw it.
My record for a raw coin was about $220k for the James A Stack 1871-CC seated dollar. >>
which goes to show, there are certainly people out there like yourself that have the eyes and the willingness to confidently buy coins for this price. It happens in many other places too; just like that raw coins from Stacks a few months back that went SEVEN figures. you don't see too many raw $1M+ coins; the buyer obviously could care less that it was slabbed, and had an eye for quality.
<< <i>Oddly enough, people paid real money for raw coins pre-1980's. OMG!!! Yes, really. And, people knew how to grade and pay for raw coins back then and they still do. >>
then came 1982. The Washington commemerative half-dollar hit the market, the first of many US Mint NCLT products to be churned out again by the truckloads.
Hoards of collectors found themselves huddled over loupes and stereo microscopes looking for the elusive 70s. After many sleepless nights of looking and arguing as to who had the true 70s, one finally proclaimed "hey, i'm sure we're all wrong! we have no independent company to spend a few seconds to grade it and put it into a shroud of plastic in an attempt to create a giant marketing tool !?!"
With this realization, all of the identical looking Washington halves remained locked at the same value and the same grade; unappreciated and wanting for homes.....................
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>My opinion doesn't matter a bit Griv, but it matters exactly as much as yours. >>
I think you miss the point. I'm not talking about opinion, I am talking market. When did you tune in?
Doogy, I'd like you to validate what you are posting because not only is it totally false but the fact that you are pushing this agenda makes all of your posts questionable. Just when I was thinking that nayb you were willing to consider someone rlse's views that you own. >>
how is it false? are your coins 'condition rarity' or 'true rarities' in your mind? Are you quite sure that the vast majority of the coins in your collection are static, in that there won't be any more collectors with these submitting them for grading, and thus greatly adding to the population reports?
Griv- don't get your back up. i'm not slamming what you collect; my point is to illustrate the differences in these two "brands" of rarity. One being more of a "real" rarity than the other because either all of the pieces have been fully accounted for, or close to it. You (and certainly I) have ZERO idea how many bullion coins are out there in private hands that are sitting in vaults, that are technical 70 grades but haen't been slabbed. If and when these coins come to market, the market will see the impact in lower values for the existing 70s. Not speculation, merely fact. >>
So what? I have 3 coins to work through and I'm not excited about any of them. Well, maybe one but nonetheless! I am all over the place and if I like the coin then I will buy it. No sets, no nothing. I would advise you to PM me if you have aauction you want to win. I don't bid against my firends without a discussion first.
<< <i>
<< <i>My opinion doesn't matter a bit Griv, but it matters exactly as much as yours. >>
I think you miss the point. I'm not talking about opinion, I am talking market. When did you tune in?
Doogy, I'd like you to validate what you are posting because not only is it totally false but the fact that you are pushing this agenda makes all of your posts questionable. Just when I was thinking that [b[nayb you were willing to consider someone rlse's views that you own. >>
Drunk at the wheel again.
And, trying to get a rise!!!
Nothing like a self-proclaimed authority. I submit that merely owning a %$&*load of MS70 graded bullion does not make one an authority on bullion or MS70,the grade.
Some advice,griv: You might be able to doff the dunce hat by being more humble. Keep bragging about how great you think you are and you will be staying in the dunce corner.
The measure of intelligence is the ability to change.
Albert Einstein (14 March 1879--18 April 1955)
<< <i>I can say that I am at least one of the 3 top authorities on the modern eagle series. DD55, you ain't one of the 3 or even of the 333, SHUT TFU IDIOT.
Nothing like a self-proclaimed authority. I submit that merely owning a %$&*load of MS70 graded bullion does not make one an authority on bullion or MS70,the grade.
Some advice,griv: You might be able to doff the dunce hat by being more humble. Keep bragging about how great you think you are and you will be staying in the dunce corner.
You say brag and I say defend. First I don't know anything because I'm a troll. Then I don't know anything because I've only been on this forum for less than 2 years, then I actually do know what I'm talking about so now I'm a braggard. I would ask that you question the motivation of ksteel of constantly attacking me, what I collect and what I post.
Do I see, Ken quit picking on Griv? No matter what that butthead says no one says a word. Same with DD55. Not a word said but you seem to have the time to call me out each and everytime I get ticked at the criticism. If I miss a key in a post, typing with my left hand at that, I get attacked. If my grammar is off, attack. If I post a thread, attack.
I've spent the week being very light-hearted and even had some fun with the attacks but a bad day at PT and a lot of pain and off the meds make one a little punchy. So screw it. You guys know everything to know about every single coin and everyone else is a troll or collects crap. There are a lot of really cool people here and I enjoy reading what they have to say. I read a lot more than I post and I've even come to appreciate other coins that I did not before. But there are a bunch of buttheads that do nothing but wait for whoever their favorite target is and looks to pick a fight.
What's worse is that the whole turtlevbd issue where he attacked me relentless, the same buttheads were right behind them. Not a word said to them. Maybe people are afraid they will get on the attack list as well. You guys are a sad joke.
they aren't a collectible at all is good for their long term health. On this basis bullion coins should
do very well in time.
What's not to like with them? They are comprised of the gold and silver that classicists say makes a
coin a coin. They are made by the US mint which so many collectors deem necessary and they often
come in extremely high grade. That their face value is a small fraction of their real value shouldn't rea-
lly matter; will they collect them if metals crash to less than the face value? Of course not. These will
never be real coins in many peoples' eyes just because they are manufactured as bullion.
Not to put to fine a point on it but a lot of the "hard money" folks are missing the point and a bet. What
were their favorite coins when they were issued except exactly the same thing, denominated bullion. It
was the definition of money though vast stretches of the past. If a coin wasn't worth its weight then it
was no coin. More importantly is these silver and gold coins made long ago were certainly not designed
to be collected. They were intended to fascilitate trade and to store wealth.
It's difficult to understand why the high quality of these is used as a club. Yes, it can be difficult to tell a
PR-69 from a PR-70 but no one is going to tell me that classics can always be easily separated from two
grades. There is a very narrow range of quality on proofs and many of the more recent mint state silver
and gold also have a narrow range as well. So? If someone wants the highest grade aren't they still do-
ing pretty much what other collectors do? Sure there are lots of the bullion coins set back in safety dep-
osit boxes and vaults that will be hitting the market as time goes by. This will increase populations. A
collector should know that this will happen. But perhaps collectors are betting on demand increasing at
a faster pace than supply. Perhaps some are collecting them for other motives than profit anyway.
Personally I wish I had gotten into these when they came out. It was a sure thing that they'd be collect-
ed if they continued in production for any lenght of time, but I was to busy collecting the moderns to get
distracted by the bullion and most of the other non-circulating moderns and ultra-moderns.
Actually, there are a ton of people that are willing to call a coin a "70" submit it to PCGS and sometimes get lucky. Some happen to work for the services. Sometimes a second person will agree (becomes a 70), sometimes not (becomes a 69).
What's interesting is to revisit some of those "70"s that have been in holders awhile and see if anything has changed with them. Just make sure you get PCGS to review for a refund. Also, just because only 1 or two exist in a grade doesn't mean every single roll of coins has been slabbed and more might come out (and probablility says it would be likely depending on the outstanding numbers that have never been graded.
<< <i>CladKing, the "problem" with mint state bullion coins is that first and foremost they are meant to represent a unit of a commidity investment, not a collectible. Both mint state and Proofs all come off the production line as essentially perfect 69+ and end up in consumer hands as such. A handful of consumers decide to plasticize the bullion and get a company to put label on them. Sometimes they come back as a perfect 70 but most times they come back as 69. The 69's and 70's effectively look the same as they should and as you might expect. The bullion in general is minted as perfect and has the same visual eye appeal, raw, 69, 70...whatever. Take away the registry and now you'll have a different playing field (like none).
>>
I know that quality has improved markedly from the beginning but I don't believe it's nearly this high. The proofs I've seen recently are spectacular!
I see a lot of people buying this stuff and taking a pretty good look at it. They are popular on TV.
Other than this I just don't know much about these markets.
Wondercoin
<< <i>
<< <i>I can say that I am at least one of the 3 top authorities on the modern eagle series. DD55, you ain't one of the 3 or even of the 333, SHUT TFU IDIOT.
Nothing like a self-proclaimed authority. I submit that merely owning a %$&*load of MS70 graded bullion does not make one an authority on bullion or MS70,the grade.
Some advice,griv: You might be able to doff the dunce hat by being more humble. Keep bragging about how great you think you are and you will be staying in the dunce corner.
You say brag and I say defend. First I don't know anything because I'm a troll. Then I don't know anything because I've only been on this forum for less than 2 years, then I actually do know what I'm talking about so now I'm a braggard. I would ask that you question the motivation of ksteel of constantly attacking me, what I collect and what I post.
Do I see, Ken quit picking on Griv? No matter what that butthead says no one says a word. Same with DD55. Not a word said but you seem to have the time to call me out each and everytime I get ticked at the criticism. If I miss a key in a post, typing with my left hand at that, I get attacked. If my grammar is off, attack. If I post a thread, attack.
I've spent the week being very light-hearted and even had some fun with the attacks but a bad day at PT and a lot of pain and off the meds make one a little punchy. So screw it. You guys know everything to know about every single coin and everyone else is a troll or collects crap. There are a lot of really cool people here and I enjoy reading what they have to say. I read a lot more than I post and I've even come to appreciate other coins that I did not before. But there are a bunch of buttheads that do nothing but wait for whoever their favorite target is and looks to pick a fight.
What's worse is that the whole turtlevbd issue where he attacked me relentless, the same buttheads were right behind them. Not a word said to them. Maybe people are afraid they will get on the attack list as well. You guys are a sad joke. >>
Maybe if you would get that target off of your mouth, the attacks,
I know it's really hard for you, but every once in a while stop and think!
Based on what you're asking, I assume you think I can pop up with a 1875 3CN MS70. Let's just say that ain't going to happen. Or, perhaps trying to find a "perfect" coin before the services came out with their nice protective slabs. That's a toughy too, but can happen.
I'm not in the business of gambling on rolls of modern bullion to see if one has a one less tick than another. Nor do I care. The funny thing is once that 70 is in holder, it becomes near impossible (especially due to holder imperfections) to tell the difference from a properly graded 69. I ask again...what's the point if you can't see a difference without a microscope?
<< <i>
Maybe if you would get that target off of your mouth, the attacks,
>>
Well... ...I'd never say that but it does seem like there's a "kick me" sing around here smoewhere.
If PCGS and NGC are going to continue to award the coveted 70 grades to coins, why not offer an optional slab made of optical grade polycarbonate that is not only less prone to hairlines, but optically better for looking at and for use in photography?
"A car is a tool that takes you from one place to another. Everything beyond that is a payment for other people's perception of you."
<< <i>Is a modern 70 really that difficult? especially when you send in a boatload straight from the mint for grading? >>
It is really easy if you send it to SGS.
Roadrunner - Do you think it is true from your personal experiences that many classic gold coins (to name just one type of coin) can come back one day in an MS64 holder and then MS65 or even MS66 another day (with the single point price differences being many, many multiples of a typical MS70 vs. MS69 price premium). If the answer to this question is "yes" - then isn't all this comtempt for the 70 grade expressed by some here truly a distinction without a difference? Wondercoin
Not contempt at all for the MS70 vs. MS69. It is fact more concern for the entire grading paradigm, classics and moderns included.
A personal experience of mine when a classic $10 Lib gold coin achieved successive grades of 64, BB, BB, 66. It's clear that I agree with your thoughts above. The range of pricing on this went from $2700 to $1800 to $5500, all in about 2 years. The price difference from 69 to 70 is often 5X, 10X, 100X. The gold coin was worth no less than $1800 even in its raw state. And if put up at auction raw, I'd have bet money it would have fetched 65 money ($3800 at the time). I actually sent the above coin to auction raw figuring it would sell for what it was worth, imo 65 money. But the auction house slabbed it without my knowledge and got that grade.
The 69 to 70 coin is one of essentially absolute perfection which is far different than a few less marks from 64 to 66. The difference from 67 to 68, or 68 to 69 on an ASE/AGE is probably readily discernible to most experienced MS graders of any series. What I don't believe is readily discernible or repeatable is the 69 to 70. If that 70 coin can be mixed into a random group of 50/50 MS69's/70's and pulled out 70-90% of the time by a TPG as MS70, then I will concede the MS70 grade makes sense. I'd love to see such a test.
Using random 70's is important since we don't want to pick the most PQ or LQ specimens that would skew results.
roadrunner
RR - It might surprise you to know that at this point, the entire 1997-2007 complex of Proof Platinum coins (not using an isolated coin date to either prove or disprove a point, but looking at every single coin in the entire set) does not have a price difference from 69 to 70 of 5x, 10x, 100x, but, rather between 2x-3x. In other words, I can sell any entire PR69DC Plat set at "x" or sell the entire date run in PR70DC at less than "3x". This, then, is no different a multiple than that $10 Lib Gold coin you mentioned that is an MS64 one day, BB the next and MS66 the next day and trades at 3x the base price depending upon what day it is.
My point here is not to argue the PR70DC Plats are good value or horrible value at present levels, but, to show that the "game" is no different between 69 and 70 grade as it is between 64 and 65 or 65 and 66 grade or even 64 -66 grade on other coin series today - even very classic coins. You've got very smart coin dealers and collectors "working" every grade level on nearly every coin series for that "one point" and to achieve the goal that every coin is either totally maxed out in grade at present or will soon be if these guys have anything to do with it.
Wondercoin