<<Well, now the story gets very interesting. This Texan apparently didn't realize he now had in his possession a board worth 3 times the board he should have received.>>
So, I am to believe that a dealer picks up his winning lots without looking at them to make sure he's not getting ripped off? I truely don't know, but I would think that folks picking up winning lots go over their winnings with the auction house to make sure everything is on the "up & up".
Do any of the dealers that bid at auctions pick up their winnings without going over the invoice first?
I also find this hard believe. To believe the Texan did not check what he had when picked-up....then selling the board to another dealer without seeing what they coins really where for a quarter-to a third of what it's worth....then for the Iowan (dealer) not to say someting about the cheap price. Of course very hard to prove, but sure doesn't 'feel' right.
I also don't think it's about the money. If it was way would we buy coins in the first place? We would rather have the coin than the money, at that moment in time, for every coin we purchase.
'Dropping the f-bomb' on a(n) (ex-)customer is pretty sad
I won a coin on ebay from them a few years back and it was a really good deal- something like a $100 for about $30. Then I got an email from them saying their was a mistake and I would not get the coin.
<< <i>I won a coin on ebay from them a few years back and it was a really good deal- something like a $100 for about $30. Then I got an email from them saying their was a mistake and I would not get the coin. >>
+ one more. Creditability of OP looking better, even for a new poster as some tries to gauge it by.
<< <i>I won a coin on ebay from them a few years back and it was a really good deal- something like a $100 for about $30. Then I got an email from them saying their was a mistake and I would not get the coin. >>
Anyone notice a pattern here?
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
But when you run a company the size of yours you have to show more respect to customers even if the customer is way out of line. That's customer service and sometimes you have to kiss the customer's ass even when the customer is way out of pocket.
While I would not condone treating customers poorly, I think it's worth making two points.
First, the amount of abuse a businessman will tolerate from a client is, to a significant extent, proportional to the marginal benefit he can derive from the customer. In the coin business, margins are thin and demand is broad based, so clients tend to be treated more as peers than as cash cows that must be pampered. (Just the way it is, not necessarily the way I'd like it to be.)
Second, the amount of abuse a businessman will tolerate from a client is, to a significant extent, proportional to the amount of damage that a dissatisfied customer can do to his business. A reputation for excellent or poor customer service means surprisingly little in the coin business, and especially the coin auction business, because almost every buyer is willing to buy from almost anyone if they have the right coin at the right price. Reputation and customer service are only secondary considerations, largely because most buyers don't think of themselves as retail consumers looking for a good shopping experience. Or to put it another way, most collectors consider themselves the hunter, not the prey.
Andy Lustig
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
<< <i>The bidder got his money back, but the auction house has to pay the consignor the full price even though it was given to the wrong person for thousands less. Hardly something they would do on purpose. >>
But the auction house has only itself to blame. What did the OP do to deserve missing out on what was rightfully his?
<< <i>The bidder got his money back, but the auction house has to pay the consignor the full price even though it was given to the wrong person for thousands less. Hardly something they would do on purpose. >>
So it is the OP's fault?
Funny how some dealers will circle the wagons for other dealers. Sorry but there is no excuse for the way (Company S) handled this situation, blame who ever you want but it won't stick! >>
The good ol' boys coin network still does exist..albeit diminished over the years.. imagine some blaming a customer for expecting a coin business to treat their customers with respect and dignity.
We all seem willing to talk about Scotsman - let us name the Texan and the Iowan - why are they getting off easy when their greed is tantamount to the problem!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! They could have stopped the whole thing.
What did the OP do to deserve missing out on what was rightfully his?
Shamika - That's a bogus question. Nobody ever did anything to deserve missing out on what was rightfully his. Otherwise, it wouldn't be rightfully his. Anyway, the situation is what the situation is, and the best anyone can be expected to do is the best that he can do.
Andy Lustig
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Wow, I just read this entire thread. Man you guys sure jump to alot of conclusions.
Some of you are getting pretty worked up for no reason.
The OP got his money back. No harm.
The owner swore at him. Give it right back to the owner or hang up and never do any business with them again.
<< <i>let us name the Texan and the Iowan, why are they getting off easy when their greed is tantamount to the problem!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! >>
From what I read, it appeared the Texan didn't realize he had the wrong lot and sold it at the price he thought he had paid for the lesser lot, which he had won.
The Iowa Dealer, however, realized he had gotten a rip off the Texas dealer and wanted to move the coins before the Texan found out his mistake.
I don't know that any of the post auction transactions were made with knowledge of the mistake by the auction co.
<< <i>Should Scotsman release their names if they are not sure that they knowingly did something wrong? >>
Of course they should. They're dealers, [the Texan and the Iowan] after all. If they didn't do something wrong here, they certainly did somewhere else. No mercy.
<< <i>What did the OP do to deserve missing out on what was rightfully his?
Shamika - That's a bogus question. Nobody ever did anything to deserve missing out on what was rightfully his. Otherwise, it wouldn't be rightfully his. Anyway, the situation is what the situation is, and the best anyone can be expected to do is the best that he can do. >>
Anyway.... The OP won the item (thus it was his to own) and now he has nothing to show for it.
Bottom Lines are needed for this discussion and then briefly my last experience with the company in question:
(1) Any organization who deals in large sums of valueable items rather it be cash, jewelry, rare coins, etc. needs to have a double-check system in place. One person should have pulled the lots (to give out) and another person should have double-checked to make sure there were no errors. We are all human. We all have made at least one mistake. If they were busy or short staffed, this is no excuse.
Where was the double-check?
(2) The Texan, if he knew he had received the wrong item and did not return it, then he is scum. This was not a cherrypick. This was thievery.
(3) The Iowan? I put him in the same box of Low Class as I put the Texan.
(4) There is never an excuse to tell a customer FU over the phone. There is nothing wrong with making obscene gestures while talking to someone on the phone (even though this is also low class), but the customer should NEVER be told this verbally.
(5) The customer should never had accused the company of intentionally doing wrong, but I can (sort of) understand his frustration. Don't we all say the wrong thing sometimes when we are frustrated?
***************** I have had two auction experiences with Scotsman. The first one went well. The second one? Well. That was - and will be - my last experience with them:
Situation: One lot of 3 Bust Halves. Three dates and Overton numbers given. All three were raw AU coins. Only one coin was pictured on the auction site. By omission in the description and by the appearance of the one coin - all three coins were by implication problem-free.
I bid on the lot. I won it. I pay for it. It arrives at my house and I sign for the shipment just hours before I leave on vacation.
When I return from vacation I open the package. All three coins are in their individual plastic flips. The flips are staped together with the coin that was photographed in the auction on top.
The top coin is great! I look at the second coin - it has several bad and very obvious scratches. I look at the third coin - it is heavily cleaned and hairlined.
I never said a word to Scotsman. I blamed myself for buying coins sight unseen. I blamed myself for not immediately opening the package.
...and I have never forgotten the experience.
Why am I saying this?
I am not surprised they (messed up and) gave out the wrong lot.
I am not surprised they (even though they shouldn't have) said FU over the phone.
Perhaps they need to have some type of quality control/customer service advisor look at their very successful business.
...because its sounds like - with a little help from the mirror - they could be a lot more successful.
<< <i>Should Scotsman release their names if they are not sure that they knowingly did something wrong? >>
Of course they should. They're dealers, [the Texan and the Iowan] after all. If they didn't do something wrong here, they certainly did somewhere else. No mercy. >>
We have to keep reminding people that auction houses' fiduciary duty is to the seller. This means the auctioneer is an agent for the seller and must act in the best interests of the seller. The bidders should not expect an auction house to "bend over backwards to make something right" in the same manner you would expect a DEALER to do so for a buyer.
Frank Provasek - PCGS Authorized Dealer, Life Member ANA, Member TNA. www.frankcoins.com
<< <i> Frank, I am not educated on auction houses what they do and don't do. Why aren't they owing a fiduciary responsiblity to both parties, why just to the seller, especially when buyer pays a fee on the end. I have never sold anything at an auction, does auction house extract a fee also from a seller? >>
he "won the item" BUT, he NEVER OWNED it. therefore, it was'nt "rightfuly his". title to the item "rightfully" remains with the auction house or it's SELLER, until title is legally passed to the high bidder. as i have always understood it, final judgement as to who gets the lot is w/ the auction house. regardless of how title failed to pass to the high bidder, whether by contrivance or by a scotsman screwup, ownership was never transferred to the high bidder.
he "won the item" BUT, he NEVER OWNED it. therefore, it was'nt "rightfuly his". title to the item "rightfully" remains with the auction house or it's SELLER, until title is legally passed to the high bidder. as i have always understood it, final judgement as to who gets the lot is w/ the auction house. regardless of how title failed to pass to the high bidder, whether by contrivance or by a scotsman screwup, ownership was never transferred to the high bidder.
K S >>
I think he owned it once they cashed his check and deposited his money into their account. Maybe a lawyer could weigh in on this.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
he "won the item" BUT, he NEVER OWNED it. therefore, it was'nt "rightfuly his". title to the item "rightfully" remains with the auction house or it's SELLER, until title is legally passed to the high bidder. as i have always understood it, final judgement as to who gets the lot is w/ the auction house. regardless of how title failed to pass to the high bidder, whether by contrivance or by a scotsman screwup, ownership was never transferred to the high bidder.
K S >>
I can see your point, but my auguement is that once the auction house accepted the OP's bid as the winning bid and then cashed his check, the OP became the owner and the auction house was then responsible for the security of the item until it was either handed or mailed to the OP. A refund hardly seems adequate.
I'm finished with this thread. We've beat this thing to death.
Excellent companies have policies and procedures in place for the employees to follow to minimize errors. Apparently Scotsman does not have adequate procedures to prevent these types of errors from occurring. This is not the employees fault - the company needs to correct the problem in their procedures. >>
You act like family coin businesses are Fortune 500 companies that have a whole "Six Sigma" staff to minimize errors.
Frank Provasek - PCGS Authorized Dealer, Life Member ANA, Member TNA. www.frankcoins.com
Excellent companies have policies and procedures in place for the employees to follow to minimize errors. Apparently Scotsman does not have adequate procedures to prevent these types of errors from occurring. This is not the employees fault - the company needs to correct the problem in their procedures. >>
You act like family coin businesses are Fortune 500 companies that have a whole "Six Sigma" staff to minimize errors. >>
Be careful - "Six Sigma" is totally different than "policies and procedures" when it comes to this type of issue.
I don't expect a family owned business to have a staff to write simple procedures to avoid these types of errors. They don't need one. This is not rocket science here.
I still firmly believe that a simple and well thought out procedure is all that is required. Even the smallest of family coin businesses could do that in a day.
And I still believe it is not the employees fault - it is managements job (or the manager) to have a system in place to prevent this type of problem.
And by the way, the lack of additional response from the offending company speaks volumes to me. It has been several days and we have not heard a peep from them that they have fixed their problem. This was an opportunity to be excellent and they have yet to step up to the plate. Sure, some will say that they don't owe this forum any response. But, so far, all I will remember is how the OP was treated.
“In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock." - Thomas Jefferson
Somehow this brings back memories of my first computer. The two memoriy sticks were missing. In those days those 8 megs of memory were worth hundreds of dollars each. The store refused to make good. After a complaint to the Better Business Bureau, they made good, but banned me from ever trespassing in their store again.
I later got an abject apology from the manufacturor (but not the store) along with a bunch of free games. It seems they found a theft ring in their warehouse that stole memory sticks.
Comments
So, I am to believe that a dealer picks up his winning lots without looking at them to make sure he's not getting ripped off?
I truely don't know, but I would think that folks picking up winning lots go over their winnings with the auction house to make sure everything is on the "up & up".
Do any of the dealers that bid at auctions pick up their winnings without going over the invoice first?
I also find this hard believe.
To believe the Texan did not check what he had when picked-up....then selling the board to another dealer without seeing what they coins really where for a quarter-to a third of what it's worth....then for the Iowan (dealer) not to say someting about the cheap price. Of course very hard to prove, but sure doesn't 'feel' right.
I also don't think it's about the money.
If it was way would we buy coins in the first place?
We would rather have the coin than the money, at that moment in time, for every coin we purchase.
'Dropping the f-bomb' on a(n) (ex-)customer is pretty sad
<< <i>I won a coin on ebay from them a few years back and it was a really good deal- something like a $100 for about $30. Then I got an email from them saying their was a mistake and I would not get the coin. >>
+ one more. Creditability of OP looking better, even for a new poster as some tries to gauge it by.
<< <i>I won a coin on ebay from them a few years back and it was a really good deal- something like a $100 for about $30. Then I got an email from them saying their was a mistake and I would not get the coin. >>
Anyone notice a pattern here?
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
While I would not condone treating customers poorly, I think it's worth making two points.
First, the amount of abuse a businessman will tolerate from a client is, to a significant extent, proportional to the marginal benefit he can derive from the customer. In the coin business, margins are thin and demand is broad based, so clients tend to be treated more as peers than as cash cows that must be pampered. (Just the way it is, not necessarily the way I'd like it to be.)
Second, the amount of abuse a businessman will tolerate from a client is, to a significant extent, proportional to the amount of damage that a dissatisfied customer can do to his business. A reputation for excellent or poor customer service means surprisingly little in the coin business, and especially the coin auction business, because almost every buyer is willing to buy from almost anyone if they have the right coin at the right price. Reputation and customer service are only secondary considerations, largely because most buyers don't think of themselves as retail consumers looking for a good shopping experience. Or to put it another way, most collectors consider themselves the hunter, not the prey.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
<< <i>The bidder got his money back, but the auction house has to pay the consignor the full price even though it was given to the wrong person for thousands less. Hardly something they would do on purpose. >>
But the auction house has only itself to blame. What did the OP do to deserve missing out on what was rightfully his?
<< <i>
<< <i>The bidder got his money back, but the auction house has to pay the consignor the full price even though it was given to the wrong person for thousands less. Hardly something they would do on purpose. >>
So it is the OP's fault?
Funny how some dealers will circle the wagons for other dealers. Sorry but there is no excuse for the way (Company S) handled this situation, blame who ever you want but it won't stick!
The good ol' boys coin network still does exist..albeit diminished over the years.. imagine some blaming a customer for expecting a coin business to treat their customers with respect and dignity.
Shamika - That's a bogus question. Nobody ever did anything to deserve missing out on what was rightfully his. Otherwise, it wouldn't be rightfully his. Anyway, the situation is what the situation is, and the best anyone can be expected to do is the best that he can do.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Should Scotsman release their names if they are not sure that they knowingly did something wrong?
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Wow, I just read this entire thread. Man you guys sure jump to alot of conclusions.
Some of you are getting pretty worked up for no reason.
The OP got his money back. No harm.
The owner swore at him. Give it right back to the owner or hang up and never do any business with them again.
<< <i>let us name the Texan and the Iowan, why are they getting off easy when their greed is tantamount to the problem!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! >>
From what I read, it appeared the Texan didn't realize he had the wrong lot and sold it at the price he thought he had paid for the lesser lot, which he had won.
The Iowa Dealer, however, realized he had gotten a rip off the Texas dealer and wanted to move the coins before the Texan found out his mistake.
I don't know that any of the post auction transactions were made with knowledge of the mistake by the auction co.
<< <i>Should Scotsman release their names if they are not sure that they knowingly did something wrong? >>
Of course they should. They're dealers, [the Texan and the Iowan] after all. If they didn't do something wrong here, they certainly did somewhere else. No mercy.
<< <i>What did the OP do to deserve missing out on what was rightfully his?
Shamika - That's a bogus question. Nobody ever did anything to deserve missing out on what was rightfully his. Otherwise, it wouldn't be rightfully his. Anyway, the situation is what the situation is, and the best anyone can be expected to do is the best that he can do. >>
Anyway.... The OP won the item (thus it was his to own) and now he has nothing to show for it.
(1) Any organization who deals in large sums of valueable items rather it be cash, jewelry, rare coins, etc. needs to have a double-check system in place. One person should have pulled the lots (to give out) and another person should have double-checked to make sure there were no errors. We are all human. We all have made at least one mistake. If they were busy or short staffed, this is no excuse.
Where was the double-check?
(2) The Texan, if he knew he had received the wrong item and did not return it, then he is scum. This was not a cherrypick. This was thievery.
(3) The Iowan? I put him in the same box of Low Class as I put the Texan.
(4) There is never an excuse to tell a customer FU over the phone. There is nothing wrong with making obscene gestures while talking to someone on the phone (even though this is also low class), but the customer should NEVER be told this verbally.
(5) The customer should never had accused the company of intentionally doing wrong, but I can (sort of) understand his frustration. Don't we all say the wrong thing sometimes when we are frustrated?
*****************
I have had two auction experiences with Scotsman. The first one went well. The second one? Well. That was - and will be - my last experience with them:
Situation: One lot of 3 Bust Halves. Three dates and Overton numbers given. All three were raw AU coins. Only one coin was pictured on the auction site. By omission in the description and by the appearance of the one coin - all three coins were by implication problem-free.
I bid on the lot. I won it. I pay for it. It arrives at my house and I sign for the shipment just hours before I leave on vacation.
When I return from vacation I open the package. All three coins are in their individual plastic flips. The flips are staped together with the coin that was photographed in the auction on top.
The top coin is great! I look at the second coin - it has several bad and very obvious scratches. I look at the third coin - it is heavily cleaned and hairlined.
I never said a word to Scotsman. I blamed myself for buying coins sight unseen. I blamed myself for not immediately opening the package.
...and I have never forgotten the experience.
Why am I saying this?
I am not surprised they (messed up and) gave out the wrong lot.
I am not surprised they (even though they shouldn't have) said FU over the phone.
Perhaps they need to have some type of quality control/customer service advisor look at their very successful business.
...because its sounds like - with a little help from the mirror - they could be a lot more successful.
These are my opinions.
Ed R.
<< <i>
<< <i>Should Scotsman release their names if they are not sure that they knowingly did something wrong? >>
Of course they should. They're dealers, [the Texan and the Iowan] after all. If they didn't do something wrong here, they certainly did somewhere else. No mercy.
Check out my current listings: https://ebay.com/sch/khunt/m.html?_ipg=200&_sop=12&_rdc=1
<< <i>
But the auction house has only itself to blame. What did the OP do to deserve missing out on what was rightfully his? >>
He did nothing, but the item is no longer available, and his only recourse is a refund.
<< <i>
Frank, I am not educated on auction houses what they do and don't do. Why aren't they owing a fiduciary responsiblity to both parties, why just to the seller, especially when buyer pays a fee on the end. I have never sold anything at an auction, does auction house extract a fee also from a seller? >>
Here are some basics.
Link
<< <i> >>
he "won the item" BUT, he NEVER OWNED it. therefore, it was'nt "rightfuly his". title to the item "rightfully" remains with the auction house or it's SELLER, until title is legally passed to the high bidder. as i have always understood it, final judgement as to who gets the lot is w/ the auction house. regardless of how title failed to pass to the high bidder, whether by contrivance or by a scotsman screwup, ownership was never transferred to the high bidder.
K S
<< <i>
<< <i> >>
he "won the item" BUT, he NEVER OWNED it. therefore, it was'nt "rightfuly his". title to the item "rightfully" remains with the auction house or it's SELLER, until title is legally passed to the high bidder. as i have always understood it, final judgement as to who gets the lot is w/ the auction house. regardless of how title failed to pass to the high bidder, whether by contrivance or by a scotsman screwup, ownership was never transferred to the high bidder.
K S >>
I think he owned it once they cashed his check and deposited his money into their account. Maybe a lawyer could weigh in on this.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>
<< <i> >>
he "won the item" BUT, he NEVER OWNED it. therefore, it was'nt "rightfuly his". title to the item "rightfully" remains with the auction house or it's SELLER, until title is legally passed to the high bidder. as i have always understood it, final judgement as to who gets the lot is w/ the auction house. regardless of how title failed to pass to the high bidder, whether by contrivance or by a scotsman screwup, ownership was never transferred to the high bidder.
K S >>
I can see your point, but my auguement is that once the auction house accepted the OP's bid as the winning bid and then cashed his check, the OP became the owner and the auction house was then responsible for the security of the item until it was either handed or mailed to the OP. A refund hardly seems adequate.
I'm finished with this thread. We've beat this thing to death.
<< <i>I hope nobody got fired over the error.
Excellent companies have policies and procedures in place for the employees to follow to minimize errors. Apparently Scotsman does not have adequate procedures to prevent these types of errors from occurring. This is not the employees fault - the company needs to correct the problem in their procedures. >>
You act like family coin businesses are Fortune 500 companies that have a whole "Six Sigma" staff to minimize errors.
Could we hold hands and sing Kumbaya ?
Texas and Iowa start and grab Michigan while you're at it !
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
<< <i>
<< <i>I hope nobody got fired over the error.
Excellent companies have policies and procedures in place for the employees to follow to minimize errors. Apparently Scotsman does not have adequate procedures to prevent these types of errors from occurring. This is not the employees fault - the company needs to correct the problem in their procedures. >>
You act like family coin businesses are Fortune 500 companies that have a whole "Six Sigma" staff to minimize errors. >>
Be careful - "Six Sigma" is totally different than "policies and procedures" when it comes to this type of issue.
I don't expect a family owned business to have a staff to write simple procedures to avoid these types of errors. They don't need one. This is not rocket science here.
I still firmly believe that a simple and well thought out procedure is all that is required. Even the smallest of family coin businesses could do that in a day.
And I still believe it is not the employees fault - it is managements job (or the manager) to have a system in place to prevent this type of problem.
And by the way, the lack of additional response from the offending company speaks volumes to me. It has been several days and we have not heard a peep from them that they have fixed their problem. This was an opportunity to be excellent and they have yet to step up to the plate. Sure, some will say that they don't owe this forum any response. But, so far, all I will remember is how the OP was treated.
“In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock." - Thomas Jefferson
My digital cameo album 1950-64 Cameos - take a look!
I later got an abject apology from the manufacturor (but not the store) along with a bunch of free games. It seems they found a theft ring in their warehouse that stole memory sticks.