Coins Before TPG's...Let's Have Some Historical Perspective!
OneCent
Posts: 3,561 ✭
Ok, in the 1970's I was filling Whitman folder's with Lincoln's, Merc's and Buffalo Nickel's. I would go to the local coin shop with my Pop to get some of the hard to find "S" mint's in well circulated condition. Heck, I didn't care. I was a kid and all that mattered was filling the hole. As an aside, the coin shop guy was this older man who constantly smoked cigars and hung the most recent playboy centerfold in the john.
I never remembered encapsualted anything visiting the coin shops in the mid to late seventies. That is probably logical as I don't believe that encapsulation was available at that point (maybe ANACS).
Anywho, I wonder what the experinces of the more advanced and mature ( 20's, 30's or above) collector's were like in the 1970's? No internet either so if you were a specialist I guess that you really had to travel around to find what you were looking for.
So, if any forum members from that era are so inclined, tell this young fella (relatively speaking) what it was like before TPG's.
I never remembered encapsualted anything visiting the coin shops in the mid to late seventies. That is probably logical as I don't believe that encapsulation was available at that point (maybe ANACS).
Anywho, I wonder what the experinces of the more advanced and mature ( 20's, 30's or above) collector's were like in the 1970's? No internet either so if you were a specialist I guess that you really had to travel around to find what you were looking for.
So, if any forum members from that era are so inclined, tell this young fella (relatively speaking) what it was like before TPG's.
Collector of Early 20th Century U.S. Coinage.
ANA Member R-3147111
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During the year, at the appointed settings of the coin star, Betelgeuse, collectors gathered to compare disks and share strips of fresh-killed mastodon. Some of us also bought and sold the disks – we exchanged them for mastodon parts, wooden clubs, shiny stones, spear points and sometimes females.
Occasionally, one collector would be found to have altered his disks so they were more appealing. One method was to store them in emu dung for two or three moons. Others scratched mystical symbols on them and said they were things called “patterns.” All of this was in hopes of trading for greater amounts of spear points, etc. When discovered, these unsavory characters (we called them “disk docs”) were usually set out as Smilodon fatalis bait.
One afternoon, a Great One of the Western Ice Caves decided to offer wisdom and security. For a small fee the Great One put your disks between sheets of clear ice, thereby protecting them from the unsavory ones.
Communication was by symbols inscribed on thin bark with soot dissolved in animal fat. For long-term storage of ideas, cave walls were perfect. Everyone who wrote on their walls and followed the wisdom of the Great Sachem was required to wear a long beard, short pants and funny shoes with the toes sticking out.
There were many other customs and traditions of those pre-civilization days, but nearly all who know them are dead of have gone Neanderthal.
(Edited for no particular reason...)
Such insightful and meaningful recollections of the days of yore!
I'd say that 1975 to 1985 was even worse for accuracy in grading and if you didn't lose money you probably had a mentor on your side (as opposed to your local coin shop).
roadrunner
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
<< <i>While learning the ropes in the early 1970's I can honestly say that every local B&M took advantage of me and sold crap. I had about 10 shops within 30 miles of me. Cleaned and damaged coins were the norm...yet you were still paying good money for them. It took me a couple of years to wake up from this mess and move on. By 1975 I had a clearer understanding of what was good and what wasn't. One of my local favs even went so far as to deny they ever sold me certain coins as they didn't want them back. As a rule these guys never wanted their old coins back as they couldn't afford to pay you a fair % of what they buried you into them at.
I'd say that 1975 to 1985 was even worse for accuracy in grading and if you didn't lose money you probably had a mentor on your side (as opposed to your local coin shop).
roadrunner >>
Same experience for me.
Most anything purchased from the local coin shop was overgraded by one notch (if I was lucky), or cleaned, whizzed, and utter crap (if I wasn't). Many coins offered as unc. at shows were sliders, etc.
In short, it was a jungle out there.
During that stage of my collecting I had no idea that some people actually paid more than face value for coins to add to their collections. I discovered that phenomenon after I left home and visited B & M coin shops in Madison, Wi. while working and going to school there. I remember feeling like I was really living life in the fast lane by paying a dollar or two over face for BU coins for my Franklin Half collection. At the same time I also went through many bank rolls of coins and found a few scarce Lincolns, Buffalo and Jefferson nickels, Mercs., etc.
Then I moved to Ca. and stopped collecting coins until the mid to late 70's, at which time I resumed adding to my collection through mail-order bidding and buying, attending most of the Long Beach Convention Center shows, Queen Mary shows, hotel shows, etc., and most of all through weekly "bid-boards" at a couple of B & M coin shops that always had huge crowds on closing nights at that time. Those bid boards drew in a lot of customers for the store owners and provided a great opportunity for fellow numismatists to rub shoulders, exchange coin knowledge and just have fun. I guess you could say that internet coin forums like this are today's virtual "bid boards". I don't remember ever seeing a slabbed coin at that time, and most collectors were always complaining about how the MS grading numbers were being manipulated by dealers to squeeze every last dollar out of a sale. At least some things haven't changed all that much since then.
I witnessed and participated in the big silver price run-up of the late 1970's-early 1980's, caused primarily by the Hunt brothers attempt to corner the silver market. There were literally lines of people at shops that bought junk silver until the market suddenly crashed in 1981 (or was it 1982?). I got burned along with many others when silver suddenly plummeted, having bought high, and soon afterwards left coin collecting behind in disgust for about 20 years. Several years ago I started being involved again, so here I am.
I'm sure that was more information than you wanted to know but...you did ask.
- Jim
the grading for the coin industry. They have also
allowed collectors to understand grading by
being able to compare graded coins to raw.
Now, before I get outraged comments. I realize
that graded coins can have a measure of variance, as well
as examples of errors. However, the Best of the TPGs,
have established a level of consistency that would have
never existed with raw coins.
Camelot
<< <i>I was a kid in the 70's and rode my bike to the coin shop in Oregon City. I would hunt for anything I could afford with my $5 allowance.
Me too but it was the 60's and my allowance was 50 cents.
"Inspiration exists, but it has to find you working" Pablo Picasso
<< <i>I'll have what RWB's having! >>
Me too!
Coin's for sale/trade.
Tom Pilitowski
US Rare Coin Investments
800-624-1870
Indian cents, Liberty Head nickels, and Barber coins were still easily found in circulation. Most casual collectors stored their finds and acquisitions in Whitman holders. Large cents were commomly available for twenty five cents each.
Just about every large department store sold coins and stamps. Brick and mortar stores usually sold both coins and stamps. Mom and Pop stores typically also sold comic books and other collectibles.
It was not unusual to find dealers who bought and sold foreign coins by the pound. Many were acquired from GIs returning from World War 2.
US dimes, quarters, half dollars and dollars contained silver.
Most banks had silver dollar rolls available at face for their customers.
Gold coin ownership of over $100 was illegal but a few ignored the law.
There was not very much coin speculation.
Most people considered themselves to be coin collectors, not numismatists.
Assembling a complete collection of Lincoln cents was a rather common goal and often a family pursuit. The majority of collections were formed from coins found in circulation or via trade. Many collectors never purchased even one coin. The value of most collections was small and the enjoyment and excitement was in finding a coin to fill a hole in the Whitman folder. Finding a 1909-SVDB or a 1914-D Lincoln was a major high for a lucky few.
Grading was inconsistant and a few dealers did not bother with grades. They simply listed prices.
Many, many non-copper coins were cleaned. Shiny was good!
Hoards of coins were discovered several times a year.
Descriptions of coins were short and simple.
Auction catalogs and price lists lacked pictures.
Purchases made by mail were sent on approval.
I do not recall there being buyer's fees in the relatively few auctions during this period.
Coin clubs were popular and a great place to buy/sell/trade.
Coin and stamp collecting were very popular with many young people.
The war was over and life was very good for most people. There was a general feeling of euphoria, innocence, trust, and optimism in the country which carried over into coin collecting. All this began to change with the start of the Korean War in 1950. Unfortunately those feelings have never returned to the country to the same degree. It was a great time to be a coin collector.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Pep Levin
Anyways, I was introduced to Gem material in the 70's by the late Gene Edwards and Bill Nagle, and have continued off and on only buying gem/near gem material since that time. Back in the pre-slab days, unless you were hooked up with someone reputable, it was really easy to get burned by sliders passed as gem... the TPG system has corrected that to some degree, although many of us will argue there are a fair number of MS 62 coins in holders represented as uncs which are in reality AU coins. Much has been done to address the AT issue as well, however, like it or not at one time or another many of the coins even in holders have been messed with at one point or another by someone... very few people like to hear this, but considering the length of time many coins have been around, it is almost inevitable that at some point in their life they have been wiped, dipped, or "enhanced" in some fashion. The percentage of coins especially the early issues and 19th century material that are totally original and never messed with in any fashion are really quite small, including those residing in slabs... when you look at a brilliant early seated or bust coin, there is no way in the world a hunk of silver could have retained it's mint brilliance for that many years, but they are slabbed, as are the ones which have been re-toned... all under the idea of "market acceptability"
Edited to add, the TPG system has enabled many dealers to survive and prosper, some of them very well known, at least with regard to gem material, who cannot grade raw coins well. Many of them would not survive without the TPG's. The percentage of dealers with the kind of eye and experience to accurately grade is much smaller than most people think, IMHO...
TC71
My Dad gave me a handful of change one day and it included two 55/55. I sold them off rather quickly for $25 each (I think it was $25). If only I was visionary! But $50 or so to a teenager in the mid-fifties bought a lot of Nehi sodas and baseball bats (my true passion at that time).
Years passed and I "grew up" and heaed off to college in Connecticut. I no longer needed the "toys" of my childhood (just like little Jackie Horner in Puff the Magic Dragon) and sold off my Whitman's and my complete baseball card collection. There's that visionary thing again.
I got serious again after college and frequented a great B&M shop in Fairfield, CT (Brooklawn Coins). I was into WLHs and Nick would always save me the nicest pieces he came across. I bought many nice Walkers that I believe would grade 66 and better for $25 - $50 each.
Nick's pricing was pretty simple. He sold at 100% of Trends and bought at 70% of Trends. You always knew the score He always made a market for anything you wanted to sell. I never felt taken advantage of by Nick. He was certainly the exception rather than the rule. Friday nights at the coin shop, cookies, bid boards! Just great. Unfortuneately, Nick's wife was murdered by two thugs who tried to rob them as they walked into their house after one of our Friday night coin shop gatherings. Nothing was ever the same with Nick after that.
I drifted in and out of coins for the next 25-30 years (marriage, kids, college, etc), with no particular direction or purpose, and then selling off, always for a loss. It's only the last 10 years or so that I've found definition in my collecting habits. I'm a happy collector today.
I've seen through my 50 years of on-again, off-again collecting that, with the exception of Nick, the raw coins I purchased were always under-graded at the time of purchase and over-graded at the time of sale. I think I'm 100% in the past six decades!
It's not that I lack grading skills. It was because the secondary market was essentially an oligopoly with little room for the collector's voice. So, I applaud TPGs for providing a common (but often debatable) base line and the internet for allowing the collector the opportunity to make deals at "employee pricing". Neither is perfect but it's better than the snake oil that the collector had to deal with before the advent of TPGs, internet, forums. The only thing that could make collecting better is to bring back Fr. Santini and Nick.
(Being vague on purpose as some these dealer are still in business.)
President, Racine Numismatic Society 2013-2014; Variety Resource Dimes; See 6/8/12 CDN for my article on Winged Liberty Dimes; Ebay
<< <i>I was a kid in the 70's and rode my bike to the coin shop in Oregon City. I would hunt for anything I could afford with my $5 allowance.
Oddly enough I beleive the above coin shop, if it is the one below the elevator, was the first shop I ever went to for coins. This all started in 1981 so compared to most here I am a pup. At the time I was very conservative, with money, and have stayed so through the years.
Anyway mom gave me her accumalation of silver coins that she had stashed away. Whitman folders of mercury dimes, lincoln cents, morgan dollars and some type coins were within the hoard. Also she purchased proof sets from the mint and they started with 1954. After looking at all of the stuff the mercury dimes caught my eye and the ride began.
At the time the Portland area had a half dozen coin outlets and the Vancouver area had two I believe.
Usually every week or two the rounds were made to check for new upgrade material for the mercury set. Mistakes were made, purchases of overgraded material and problem coins. All in all everything worked out just fine for about five years and then the gross overgrading of coins began in the area. The reputable dealers were still quite fair but they did not always have what was needed.
At this point trips to Seattle started to be made and the novel idea of coins shows was found. This is when the obvious overgrading of the period really showed up. These folks were the rip-meisters of the world and after a couple of years total disgust with the hobby set in.
In 1988 the decision was made to junk the whole collecting idea. At this time the mercury set was missing two coins and it was, IMO, a high AU set with many MS coins in it. The 21P was easily a MS64 coin by todays standards. The set was taken to a local show, Willamette Coin Club, and the first dealer the set was shown to was very interested in the set. The offer he gave me was something like $1500.00. Total disgust hit like a ton of bricks and I walked out of the show. During the next few months the set was parted out and sold piece by piece to the local dealers in the Portland and Seattle area. When this was finished the hobby was put behind untill 1998 or 1999 when just on a whim I decided to see what was happening at the Salem coin show on a snowy thanksgiving weekend.
Slabs were discouvered at Salem and the thrill came back. At this show some of the old dealers were still in business. The good dealers still graded fairly and the shady dealers had not changed either. Still at this time some of the dealers that could not grade worth a darn had the very optimistic grades posted on their coins even though TPG slabs were in the case also. You would think their grading would get a little better. Thats being way tooooo optimistic I guess.
The 80's was a great time to learn in the hobby. You took your lumps every once in a while but I think it was a better period to learn how to grade and to learn about what should be avoided.
Ken
- Jim
Planchet
All coins in circulation were Standing Liverty Quarters, Walking Halves, Mercury Dimes, etc. There were always Indian Head Cents in your change and no one thought anything of it. I remember all the Sitting Liberty coins still in circulation and again, no one thought much of that either. I started collecting pennies because that was all I could afford. There was no such thing as an allowance. If you wanted money you had to find a way to earn it. I remember going through all the alleys collecting bottles for the deposit. Back then most, not all, glass bottles could be turned into a store for the deposit. I used to wonder why so many people were to lazy to take them back for the deposit but glad they didn't since that was one of my biggest incomes. Much later I found out they put them out purposely for us kids so we could have some money.
My biggest and most rememberance of a great coin deal was that coin shop by my house. In the window one day there was this dish with 10 - 1916D Mercury Dimes and I wanted at least one. The guy in the store knew me well and made me a deal. All for $1.50 each if I bought all 10. I did and that was all the money I had been saving for a long, long time. Still have all those.
However, my main memory was when my Dad started coming home with those brand new, just minted Silvery looking cents in 1943. He constantly came home with those for me. I ended up with over 30 rolls of them and still have them.
Dealers were responsible for what they sold to the retail public, especially if they wished to build up a clientele.
They needed to be knowledgeable and have the integrity to stand behind their merchandise.
Today, many dealers abandon that responsibility in favor of the TPG's guarantee. Auction houses do not need to stand behind anything that is being auctioned, as long as it is encapsulated.
Many of us that deal in unencapsulated coins do stand behind their merchandise. The only negative is when the client becomes dis-satisfied when an unencapsulated coin does not meet the standards, on that day, of the TPG's. Sophisticated numismatists that understand that encapsulated coins only represent the TPG's opinion on that day mostly will retain rare and difficult coins, if they meet their own standards.
That is distinctly different from dealing and auctioning prior to the TPG's.
The necessity remains for a collector to appreciate the coins that they acquire for their collections, to research, and to be able to evaluate truly scarce coins.
The TPG's are indeed valuable, but they are not perfect.
I firmly believe in numismatics as the world's greatest hobby, but recognize that this is a luxury and without collectors, we can all spend/melt our collections/inventories.
eBaystore
Among the more interesting and educational volumes would be The Numismatist, older auction catalogues and fixed price lists, and various reference books that include some "personality" with the coins that are researchered.
Dave Bowers has written numerous modern books which focus on the people, events, and activities of the past.
There are lots of "tidbits" to be found if one assembles a large numismatic related library. Just reading the excellent literature catalogue descriptions of lit dealers like George Kolbe and Charles Davis will provide many unknown and pertinent insights as to what the earlier numismatist's were doing and how they did things.
The common advice was to buy the best you could afford but it was mostly just
the common date and scarcer Morgans being pursued. There was also a lot of
interest in walkers and in a few other 19th and 20th century series. These were
beginning to run up in price in high grades. Looking back now they were extremely
cheap but gems were bringing three or four times the money of choice coins.
There was very little competition in newer series like the Franklins and Washingtons
but with so little interest you had to look through rolls which could get very expensive.
The services did a great job of providing the market with a product in great demand;
high grade coins. It became much easier to find the coins which also tended to expand
the markets. While it didn't benefit any moderns initially because there was still no de-
mand, it did in the longer run.
In some ways grading was less of a problem before the TPG's. Sure there was a minefield
for novices and collectors who weren't good at grading or authentication but there was
never really any need to argue grade. If the coin was priced fairly it would sell and if not,
it would sit until a novice didn't recognize how optimistically graded it was. Grade is more
fixed now when the coin is slabbed. Owners tend to think they're PQ and lookers tend to
think they squeeked through.
There is a lot more safety in slabs but you still have to be careful and critical. You still need
to know what you're buying and have an idea of the value.
Some parts of the markets haven't really changed overmuch since the '70's. There are still
lots of things that are rarely slabbed and buyers don't expect them to be.
Wow, you paint a great picture with short brushstrokes, OnlyBuffalos!
Makes me wish for days like that.
In the window one day there was this dish with 10 - 1916D Mercury Dimes and I wanted at least one. The guy in the store knew me well and made me a deal. All for $1.50 each if I bought all 10. I did and that was all the money I had been saving for a long, long time. Still have all those.
Phenomenal, carl.
However, my main memory was when my Dad started coming home with those brand new, just minted Silvery looking cents in 1943. He constantly came home with those for me. I ended up with over 30 rolls of them and still have them.
Some guys get all the luck!