Should coins be overgraded by TPG's as a professional courtesy?

291fifth · February 24, 2008 12:34AM

I know of one dealer who gets very miffed when his borderline coins don't make "his" grade. He feels that the TPGs should upgrade such coins as a professional courtesy. He apparently feels that this is just something that any business should do for another business.

Comment...

Cratylus · February 24, 2008 12:41AM

Oh boy, here we go!

Does it happen? Absolutely YES.
Should it happen? Absolutely NO.

FatMan · February 24, 2008 12:43AM

Hmmm, I guess he is missing the purpose of "Third Party" grading.

However, with that said, I am sure he has the same view as most collectors that the TPGs give gifts to the big players all the time. True or not, this perception is very real.

RYK · February 24, 2008 12:45AM

In theory, the impartial assessment of the grade, no matter who is the submitter, is essential for there to be trust in the service of the TPG. If this impartiality is absent, or there is reasonable suspicion that it is absent, the credibility of the TPG would be undermined.

tresgatos · February 24, 2008 12:48AM

Yes they should... after the thousands I've dropped at PCGS they should
not only ask me what grades I want but supply an easy-to-use-form for said purpose.

RegistryCoin · February 24, 2008 12:48AM

<< He apparently feels that this is just something that any business should do for another business. >>

PerryHall · February 24, 2008 2:35AM

Maybe he should just start his own grading company.

MrEureka · February 24, 2008 2:40AM

He feels that the TPGs should upgrade such coins as a professional courtesy. He apparently feels that this is just something that any business should do for another business.

I believe your friend is making the false assumption that the TPGs need his business.

ahooka454 · February 24, 2008 2:42AM

Mybe they should give grades depending on what "presents" we send in with the coins.

ricko · February 24, 2008 3:00AM

I sincerely hope this does not happen... Cheers, RickO

PerryHall · February 24, 2008 3:04AM

<< Does it happen? Absolutely YES. >>

Sounds like you're questioning the integrity of NGC & PCGS. Let's see the evidence.

BlindedByEgo · February 24, 2008 3:06AM

Ownership adds a point.

Funny question, though.

TwoSides2aCoin · February 24, 2008 3:17AM

I don't think coins should be undergraded or overgraded. As a professional courtesy, they should be properly graded.
-----------------------------
Edit for typo.

Unknown · February 24, 2008 3:24AM

This content has been removed.

Mar327 · February 24, 2008 3:33AM

Before TGP's dealers graded their own coins - if he's living in the past, create his own company, as Perry Hall said above. Then he should always be very pleased with his grades.

Perhaps there are some services who'd appreciate a box of Godiva Chocolates for a higher grade? But those wouldn't be accepted on feeBay....

ecichlid · February 24, 2008 3:44AM

He should start his own stickers.

COALPORTER · February 24, 2008 3:50AM

Maybe your dealer friend has confessed to you that he is
not very ethical.

busco69 · February 24, 2008 3:55AM

In my opinion TPG S overgrade all coins as it is.I belive this is called market grading.

Cratylus · February 24, 2008 4:13AM

<< 

<< Does it happen? Absolutely YES. >>

Sounds like you're questioning the integrity of NGC & PCGS. Let's see the evidence. >>

I question the capabilities of TPGs to be consistent with their grades and their ability to be completely impartial, yes. Face it, it's in the nature of people to be at least a little biased. The only one that I am aware of that has done something to dispel the appearance of impropriety is ICG (who grades coins without having any idea of who submitted them, making it a lot more difficult to show partiality and favortism).

You want evidence you can SEE? I have no documented chain of physical evidence to provide you. You want evidence you can HEAR (read)? I only have personal accounts, the accounts of several coin collector friends, and quite a few stories from smaller and medium-sized dealers who have submitted and resubmitted coins and continued to get obviously low (and incorrect) grades, only to have them resubmitted by a larger and more well-known dealer and come back 2-3 grades higher (in one case a coin went from an F12 to a VF25, something that even a novice coin collector should be able to distinguish). I also have in my possession a coin that was BBed twice and then resubmitted by another large dealer and came back in a VF35 holder with no mention of the blatant and obvious cleaning/dipping that had occurred. The coin is UNNATURALLY shiny (not lustrous) with hairlines ALL OVER IT. I think the kicker was when the dealer who resubmitted it said, "Let ME submit it. I can get it slabbed." Sure enough, he was right. If you talk to enough dealers on a bourse floor about it in casual conversation, you will find that there is a definite undercurrent of suspicion among quite a few of them. So it's not just me.

Coincidence? Unlikely, but perhaps. In my opinion, it's more likely that certain dealers and high-volume submitters get "favors" and the benefit of the doubt on better grades.

So the only question that's relevant to ME is: if the TPGs can't be consistent (for WHATEVER reason) with their grades on a particular example of a coin, how can I possibly trust that their grading is accurate or impartial? Answer: I can't. Which is why I could care less what type of plastic (if any) a coin resides in. I buy the coin, not the plastic... which means, the plastic is of little value to me except in determining whether or not a specimen is GENUINE (and in those cases where I have ANY doubts, I would go with PCGS, NGC, or ANACS).

DJCoinz · February 24, 2008 4:15AM

<< Should coins be overgraded by TPG's as a professional courtesy? >>

WTCG · February 24, 2008 4:57AM

There is nobody in this business who should deserve a higher grade on their coins because of "courtesy", especially somebody who complains after his desire for entitlement is justifiably denied.

Unfortunately I know of several dealers who make a habit of complaining incessantly about their grading results. "Crybaby" is the proper nickname for these folks.

BECOKA · February 24, 2008 7:19AM

No, no, no, no, no. That dealer is a pompous jerk to think he is above anyone else. I just got lucky a few times and feels he is owed the world now.

Griv · February 24, 2008 7:26AM

<< I know of one dealer who gets very miffed when his borderline coins don't make "his" grade. He feels that the TPGs should upgrade such coins as a professional courtesy. He apparently feels that this is just something that any business should do for another business.

Comment... >>

Apparantly, he should give up grading since he doesn't seem to be very good at it.

leothelyon · February 24, 2008 7:28AM

He apparently feels that this is just something that any business should do for another business.

He apparently hasn't heard of NGc!

Leo

PerryHall · February 24, 2008 8:13AM

<< He apparently feels that this is just something that any business should do for another business.

He apparently hasn't heard of NGc!

Leo >>

Are you saying NGC gives out courtesy grades?

Zoins · February 24, 2008 8:16AM

I've heard that some top TPGs have slabbed known AT coins as a courtesy.

ahooka454 · February 24, 2008 8:24AM

Do dealers like this have any grading books? I would like to see their personal referance library. This thing we hear about getting a point for ownership is just crazy.

coinkat · February 24, 2008 8:42AM

no

next question please...

Manorcourtman · February 24, 2008 8:47AM

<< 

<< Does it happen? Absolutely YES. >>

Sounds like you're questioning the integrity of NGC & PCGS. Let's see the evidence. >>

Put up or shut up.

tahoe98 · February 25, 2008 3:13AM

i'm not sure but i think i just heard a poof pistol lock and load..

Longacre · February 25, 2008 3:26AM

I am sure it happens, but it should not.

Shamika · February 25, 2008 3:27AM

<< I know of one dealer who gets very miffed when his borderline coins don't make "his" grade. He feels that the TPGs should upgrade such coins as a professional courtesy. He apparently feels that this is just something that any business should do for another business.

Comment... >>

Comment? Yea! The dealer you mentioned is a dumbass!

sweetwilliet · February 25, 2008 3:34AM

Does it happen? Absolutely YES. >>

Sounds like you're questioning the integrity of NGC & PCGS. Let's see the evidence. >>

"Put up or shut up."

Well, the post above does not mention any TPG by name, and therefore isn't questioning the integrity of NGC or PCGS. I can't speak for the OP, but no specific TPG was implicated in his post.

dorkkarl · February 25, 2008 4:39AM

<< I know of one dealer who gets very miffed when his borderline coins don't make "his" grade. He feels that the TPGs should upgrade such coins as a professional courtesy. >>

he's right

K S

doh · February 25, 2008 4:48AM

<< Comment... >>

The dealer you know is retarded. Literally has mental issues. If one simply thinks (or perhaps acknowledges) that "professional courtesy" happens that's one thing. But for some joe blow to assume that a major TPG should change their standards just so he can turn the screws on some customers is beyond ludicrous.

fc · February 25, 2008 4:53AM

One Class I dollar, a PCGS Proof-68 once owned by the Sultan of Muscat (now Oman) and the finest known 1804 specimen, sold in 1999 to coin dealer David Akers, who reportedly bought it for a private collector. The price was $4.14 million, the second most ever paid for any individual coin through a public auction (the most was for a 1933 Saint-Gaudens twenty dollar gold piece, which sold for $7.59 million in 2002). The same coin had earlier been graded Proof-65 by Q. David Bowers.

Another Class I 1804 dollar, a PCGS Proof-67 once owned by the King of Siam (now Thailand), sold as part of the King of Siam 11-coin set for $1.82 million in 1993, for more than $4 million in 2001, and most recently for $8.5 million in 2005 to Rare Coin Wholesalers. The same coin had previously been graded Proof-65 by both PCGS and Q. David Bowers.

The PCGS Proof-64 Dexter specimen, another Class I dollar, sold for $1.84 million at Stack's 65th anniversary auction in 2000. The same coin had previously been graded Proof-63 by Q. David Bowers.

The Adams-Carter specimen, graded Proof-58 by PCGS, sold in August 2003 for $1.2 million through Bowers and Merena. The same coin sold just two years earlier for $874,000. Reportedly, during the time the Carter family owned the coin, from 1950 to 1984, Amon Carter Jr. occasionally carried it unprotected in his pocket, which caused the wear.

The Adams-Carter coin is currently graded Proof-58 by PCGS, but in the past it was graded Proof-50 by NGC and before that Proof-45 by PCGS. To PCGS's own graders, the coin improved an astonishing 13 points in quality over time. PCGS contended that it graded the coin as it most recently did because previous graders didn't account for its weak strike. But Q. David Bowers, Walter Breen, and Eric P. Newman and Kenneth E. Bressett had all graded it extremely fine as well. A considerably more likely explanation is that this coin is just another example of how the grading "standards" of the grading services are anything but consistent over time and how they treat rare coins or coins with provenance more leniently than other coins.

NGC recently engaged in a similar act of blatant overgrading. It graded the Berg-Garrett specimen, a Class III 1804 dollar not pictured here, Proof-55. This is a whopping 15 points higher than everyone else had graded it. Q. David Bowers graded it EF-40 in his 1993 book Silver Dollars and Trade Dollars of the United States: A Complete Encyclopedia. Walter Breen graded it EF in his 1988 book Complete Encyclopedia of U.S. and Colonial Coins. Eric P. Newman and Kenneth E. Bressett graded it extremely fine in their 1962 book The Fantastic 1804 Dollar. When it was last sold, in 1980 as part of the Garrett sale, it was also graded EF-40. Before NGC graded it Proof-55, ANACS had graded it, also EF-40.

The above examples of sleight-of-hand grading with 1804 dollars by the legitimate grading companies may boost the selling prices of these coins, and it creates an incentive for those selling these kinds of coins to submit them for treatment like this, but it doesn't reflect well on the grading services or numismatics.

----
professional courtesy or am i missing something here? ;-)

TwoSides2aCoin · February 25, 2008 4:59AM

<< 

<< I know of one dealer who gets very miffed when his borderline coins don't make "his" grade. He feels that the TPGs should upgrade such coins as a professional courtesy. >>

he's right

K S >>

grip · February 25, 2008 5:17AM

FC thank's for the post.....Very enlightening.

Al

Doogy · February 25, 2008 5:41AM

FC's post and my own suspicions, are the reason why i submit/re-submit higher dollar coins through major "name" dealers.

streeter · February 25, 2008 5:51AM

"No, no, no, no, no. That dealer is a pompous jerk to think he is above anyone else. I just got lucky a few times and feels he is owed the world now."he

HE? how about she?

cmerlo1 · February 25, 2008 6:14AM

I know a dealer who has nicknames for what the letters in a grading service's name stand for...He calls PCGS "Preferred Customer Grading Service". I think all TPG's want the ultra-rarities in their holders, and are willing to let things slide a little. How else would you get a damaged 1943 copper cent in a PCGS holder, or a cleaned flowing hair half or dollar in PCGS or NGC plastic? The anonimity of the submitters of those types of coins would be difficult to maintain, since their sales are often publicized, so I can see the graders possibly knowing who the submitter was. I don't believe that they know or have time to know who submits the less rare, 'daily grind' coins that they grade all day, though...

Amigo · February 25, 2008 6:36AM

If you want the best shot at getting an upgrade, have Heritage send it in prior to the Auction. Heaps and Heaps of BU coins are borderline and could go either way. TPG's also generate more income grading conservative the first few times. It's all a game, period.

Wolf359 · February 25, 2008 6:38AM

<< Yes they should... after the thousands I've dropped at PCGS they should
not only ask me what grades I want but supply an easy-to-use-form for said purpose. >>

No wonder you're wearing fruit in your icon

Frankcoins · February 25, 2008 9:53AM

It's a myth, since PCGS dealers must honor the PCGS grade. If dealer A could get his coins overgraded and
then take them to Dealer B who by contract is obliged to honor his PCGS bid price for any coin offered, the
market model would have failed years ago.

Frankcoins · February 25, 2008 9:59AM

<< In my opinion TPG S overgrade all coins as it is.I belive this is called market grading. >>

Their purpose was to market grade coins. With technical grading, coins of the same grade can be worth 50% or 300%
of the base price. Market grading deducts points for weakly struck or unattractive toning, and add points for eye appeal, thus the grade on the slab is a "market" (valuation) grade.

fc · February 25, 2008 10:02AM

<< 

<< In my opinion TPG S overgrade all coins as it is.I belive this is called market grading. >>

Their purpose was to market grade coins. With technical grading, coins of the same grade can be worth 50% or 300%
of the base price. Market grading deducts points for weakly struck or unattractive toning, and add points for eye appeal, thus the grade on the slab is a "market" (valuation) grade. >>

another forum member put it a different way. they rank coins.
market grading is just another term for them being unable to grade
a gem from 20 years ago as 65 anymore.

now it is a 66-67. they have to rank the coin because they cannot have
an obviously superior coin in a 65 holder being compared to the rest.

so they rank them with a 1-70 point basis.

market grading == ranking == grade inflation

MidLifeCrisis · February 25, 2008 10:15AM

<< 

<< I know of one dealer who gets very miffed when his borderline coins don't make "his" grade. He feels that the TPGs should upgrade such coins as a professional courtesy. He apparently feels that this is just something that any business should do for another business.

Comment... >>

Comment? Yea! The dealer you mentioned is a dumbass! >>

oxy8890 · February 25, 2008 11:54AM

<< I know of one dealer who gets very miffed when his borderline coins don't make "his" grade. He feels that the TPGs should upgrade such coins as a professional courtesy. He apparently feels that this is just something that any business should do for another business.

Comment... >>

Ahh, I love living in the era of entitlement!

Shamika · February 25, 2008 11:12PM

<< 

<< In my opinion TPG S overgrade all coins as it is.I belive this is called market grading. >>

Their purpose was to market grade coins. With technical grading, coins of the same grade can be worth 50% or 300%
of the base price. Market grading deducts points for weakly struck or unattractive toning, and add points for eye appeal, thus the grade on the slab is a "market" (valuation) grade. >>

But since the "market" changes (and it does change), the market grade can change accordingly. With technical grading, the rules are more defined. Yes, coins of the same technical grade can be worth 50% or 300% of the base price, but that decision should be left up to the market, not a third party.

AU58WALKERS · February 25, 2008 11:15PM

"Should coins be overgraded by TPG's as a professional courtesy?"

Say what???

TwoSides2aCoin · February 25, 2008 11:29PM

After reading further I'm left with more to ponder.

If someone submits a coin , they are trusting the party to whom they've sent the coin, and paid to grade. So a dealer who submits more should get more because the company that grades them gets more money from that dealer.

The more I spend, the better my chances of getting the grades I want

If you believe this, please PM me. I'll send your coins in for you. This is worth going into business for.

Should coins be overgraded by TPG's as a professional courtesy?

Comments

The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!

My Jefferson Nickel Collection

Leave a Comment