This coin has to be doctored! Its to new!!???

eCoinquest · February 21, 2008 10:08AM

Take a look. How could a Prezzy Dollar tone that fast? The coin looks AWESOME but I doubt it is a naturally toned piece.
Toned PCGS Washington

What say you???

ahooka454 · February 21, 2008 10:10AM

lathmach · February 21, 2008 10:11AM

Pat Braddick is a member here. Why not talk directly to him?

Ray

jessewvu · February 21, 2008 10:12AM

There is no way in HE(double hockey sticks) PCGS would have slabbed that coin, is there!?!?! At least the seller is honest that the coin is altered.

edited to fix some errors.

harvey85422458 · February 21, 2008 10:13AM

Pat Braddick is an honest man who sell's great coins I HIGHLY doubt that he had any part in doctoring this coin

eCoinquest · February 21, 2008 10:15AM

I was not implying that HE added the color, only that it seems fishy. Just my opinion though.

mrpotatoheadd · February 21, 2008 10:18AM

It says "questionable toning" right in the listing.

eCoinquest · February 21, 2008 10:23AM

It says "questionable toning" right in the listing.

Yes, but why then is it in a PCGS holder???

ahooka454 · February 21, 2008 10:25AM

As long as he is sayin its at then I see nothing wrong with selling it. I like the fact that he is honest in his description.

mrpotatoheadd · February 21, 2008 10:26AM

<< Yes, but why then is it in a PCGS holder??? >>

You'll have to ask PCGS that question- I just lurk here and post occasionally.

messydesk · February 21, 2008 10:27AM

<< It says "questionable toning" right in the listing.
Yes, but why then is it in a PCGS holder??? >>

Because braddick isn't a PCGS grader?

ahooka454 · February 21, 2008 10:29AM

It may have been toned in the holder.

eCoinquest · February 21, 2008 10:31AM

As long as he is sayin its at then I see nothing wrong with selling it. I like the fact that he is honest in his description

I agree, it was good of him to state it as such.

To bad it is not a sure thing that it is naturally toned. would be cool to have a set of toned prezzies. It might even make em' sort of nice looking.

Mark · February 21, 2008 10:32AM

I concur with ahooka454--it may well have been AT'ed in the holder. I presume those holders are probably easier to AT a coin because the plastic inner core has several large cut out areas, which should make it easier for a gas (or perhaps a liquid but I'd bet a gas) to get to the coin itself.

I also concur that Pat, the seller, had nothing to do with toning that coin.

Gemineye · February 21, 2008 10:34AM

<< It may have been toned in the holder. >>

Is that possible.....!?!?!?..........

..............

Elcontador · February 21, 2008 10:34AM

Newly doctored red copper can look great when the job is done, and then look like **** three to six months later. This probably applies to other coins.

BTW, I have seen quite a few doctored coins get into 1st tier TPG slabs, including a number of five figure coins. Some people like them because they're 'pretty.' I saw an obviously heat-treated four figure type coin in a 1st tier TPG slab just last week at Long Beach.

Take your pick. Let the docs know what denomination, in what grade, what you're wliing to spend and in what color combination you want. They will make it for you, submit it, and see if it gets through.

jessewvu · February 21, 2008 10:35AM

<< It may have been toned in the holder. >>

May? I would be willing to bet there is no way in hell PCGS graded that coin like that. No way in hell. Isn't this the reason PCGS had a press release about just this very thing?

PCGS Reinforces Rules for Suspected “Doctored” Coins

<< 
“We’re seeing more and more coin doctoring than we’ve ever seen, and the methods used to alter the coins are more and more sophisticated,” said Ron Guth, President of PCGS, a division of Collectors Universe, Inc. (NASDAQ: CLCT).

“We are constantly trying to keep up with new and sophisticated techniques, such as micro surgery with lasers and various chemical treatments to alter the surfaces of coins. You name it, and the coin doctors are trying it. We’re giving public notice to those who alter coins that we’re clamping down on them.” >>

If he, the seller, knows it is AT, then he knows it doesn't belong in a PCGS holder. There are people out there that do not even know what AT means. If you are going to use acronyms in listings, you should at least define them...

edited to add:
I could say that my definition of AT is Authenticated Toning and cause a really big stink about it with the seller when PCGS tells me that the coin has been altered/destroyed.

Just food for thought, nothing else at all.

ahooka454 · February 21, 2008 10:45AM

If PCGS slabs them after they are AT, they should eat the liability. They did slab it. If a seller is honest about the coin being at then there is no wrong. If a new collector doesnt know any better, they should stay away from them.

From what I have been told about the slabs, they are not air tight.

ricko · February 21, 2008 10:51AM

IMO, PCGS would not have slabbed it in that condition... Cheers, RickO

Mark · February 21, 2008 10:54AM

Several years ago CW pulbished results of tests showing that slabs are not air tight; gases can get into them and tone the coins. As I recall, this was tested using coins in a sulfer rich atmosphere. And, as I mentioned before, my guess is that the Presidential coin slabs are somewhat less air tight that others because of the cut out pieces of the inner plastic gasket.

I really cannot see PCGS slabbing that coin as it currently exists, which is why I tend toward the AT view.

droopyd · February 21, 2008 10:57AM

looks like someone took a sharpie to that bad boy.

Russ · February 21, 2008 10:57AM

This looks like one that florida toner chick had listed a while back. There has been speculation that she's gassing coins already in holders.

Russ, NCNE

fc · February 21, 2008 11:01AM

ah braddick. still trying to make money off the less educated eh?

i am proud to be on your banned list on ebay. i will still always lump
you in with the dealers trying to make a fast buck.

i do not care if you AT it or not. you should be embarrassed to even
be selling it. 275 dollars huh? i laugh. at you and that coin.

BECOKA · February 21, 2008 11:03AM

Not saying its natural but I have had these thing start toning like that really quick when left in a ziplock bag.

Must have been a little moisture.

The ones in my dansco album start toning (darker not blue) within a couple of days.

I guess I am just saying these things seem to react quickly to the elements.

Russ · February 21, 2008 11:05AM

<< I guess I am just saying these things seem to react quickly to the elements. >>

They do, indeed. So do Sacs. I've seen some VERY weird color on the latter in album sets.

Russ, NCNE

ahooka454 · February 21, 2008 11:05AM

<<ah braddick. still trying to make money off the less educated eh?

i am proud to be on your banned list on ebay. i will still always lump
you in with the dealers trying to make a fast buck.

i do not care if you AT it or not. you should be embarrassed to even
be selling it. 275 dollars huh? i laugh. at you and that coin>>

Flame away for my popcorn.

fc · February 21, 2008 11:08AM

i did already flame away. i already guessed who was selling the coin
before even opening the ebay link.

AT + ebay = guess who!

UtahCoin · February 21, 2008 11:15AM

I have a hypothesis that I think is plausible. This is based on the assumption that we all know that PCGS would not grade a new coin with that color. And I don't think gassing it would work to that degree. I'm starting to think that the coin is being treated with some type of slow reacting agent, then perhaps immediately being submitted at a show for overnight grading. Then whatever slow reacting agent that is on the coin starts to toned it in a short time (be it hours, days or a couple of weeks). Think about using MS70 on new copper and having it tone a few days later. Just a thought.

This scenario would certainly answer the questions we all have about these types of modern toned coins in top tier holders.

Mark · February 21, 2008 11:34AM

UtahCoin:

A slow acting reagent is an interesting idea. Aside from the fact I have no idea what might be used, any such reagent would need to be absolutely colorless and orderless. And, given that the graders handle the coin by the edges with their fingers, it would also need to undectable by touch. I guess such a reagent could exist. However I still think a gas is more likely, simply because I already know that the holders are not air tight and I already know that some gases can tone coins. And, at the risk of bringing up a locked thread, I think Occam's razor favors a gas.

That said, I have always wondered how MOC managed to tone his coins in the old rattler holders. I hasten to add that I've wondered from a theoretical standpoint not a pratical standpoint.

In his case, I was unsure if he had managed to introduce a liquid to the coin or if he also used a gas.

UtahCoin · February 21, 2008 11:36AM

<< I have always wondered how MOC managed to tone his coins in the old rattler holders. >>

I'm sure it was gas

Mark · February 21, 2008 11:42AM

UtahCoin:

I think a gas is a possiblity. But as I recall, the demarcation between the toning and the "white" part of the coin was fairly sharp. I always wondered how a gas could leave such a sharp line--I would think that the line between toned and non-toned would be more amorphous with a gas and sharper with a liquid. But I sure don't know (shrug) and unless MOC wants to pm to us how he did it, I think I'll always be uncertain.

robkool · February 21, 2008 11:49AM

That's just an ugly look'n dollar in my opinion...

MrSpud · February 21, 2008 11:50AM

Heat?

or chemicals?

harvey85422458 · February 21, 2008 11:53AM

I know I'm in the minority but that red is pretty sharp

JRocco · February 21, 2008 1:14PM

Bad stuff.

This makes EVERYONE look bad.

ozzyfan269 · February 21, 2008 1:25PM

Only a moron would buy that piece of crap!

mcheath · February 21, 2008 1:55PM

>>>>>>>Pat Braddick is an honest man who sell's great coins I HIGHLY doubt that he had any part in doctoring this coin>>>>>>>>>

If making money selling ATed crap at the expense of less knowledgable individuals is honest then count me out. He does mention that this is probably ATed, but that won't stop him from making a quick buck or two. I can count quite a few ATed coins for sale in his store.

ArizonaJack · February 21, 2008 2:17PM

WOW...someone actually put that up for sale, AT description included? I know the seller is respected here and all, but that just reaks.....in fact it stinks

Elcontador · February 21, 2008 5:45PM

The heat-treated coins I've seen were fairly uniform in color, unless something else was put onto the surfaces of the coin before it was baked.

Zoins · February 21, 2008 6:39PM

Is mentioning a coin is probably AT better than not mentioning a coin is counterfeit?

Some people think dealers don't need to be accountable for educating their customers. Should this be any different here?

seatedcoins · February 21, 2008 7:16PM

<< ah braddick. still trying to make money off the less educated eh?

i am proud to be on your banned list on ebay. i will still always lump
you in with the dealers trying to make a fast buck.

i do not care if you AT it or not. you should be embarrassed to even
be selling it. 275 dollars huh? i laugh. at you and that coin. >>

Bash away

Gemini · February 21, 2008 7:57PM

I guess its a case of when in Rome do as the Romans do.

airedale · February 21, 2008 9:59PM

Same old Pea*ock Coins, different day. Surely someone would not buy that coin. Will PCGS do anything about this, someone from there does monitor this forum?

rgCoinGuy · February 21, 2008 10:07PM

These were baked to see how they would come out, my question is, if you baked one in a slab (I don't have any to experiment on of these) would the chemicals in the slab itself possibly combine with the heat to possibly look more like this on in the OP? Or would the slab melt? And no, I don't sell my experiments, but I did put these in my Presidential Dansco album because I think they look cool!

mr1931S · February 21, 2008 11:05PM

No way would PCGS holder a coin that looks this crappy. As for making a buck off the uneducated...if it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck...

jhusman · February 22, 2008 12:25AM

I have baked a few, just for fun, and that is what they come out like. I dont' know if you could bake in the slab becasue of melting.

ahooka454 · February 22, 2008 12:32AM

<<Same old Pea*ock Coins, different day. Surely someone would not buy that coin. Will PCGS do anything about this, someone from there does monitor this forum?>>

Why should PCGS do anything? He states very clearly they are AT. Its the dealers that are not being honest I want them to go after.

moonshine · February 22, 2008 12:32AM

Peacoc k coins always sells coins that are 'colorful'. I have always wondered where he gets them all.

Forum member - or not ..... there have been more than just this one questionable coin that I have seen him selling on eBay.

If it walks like a duck . . .

ormandh · February 22, 2008 12:47AM

<< <<Same old Pea*ock Coins, different day. Surely someone would not buy that coin. Will PCGS do anything about this, someone from there does monitor this forum?>>

Why should PCGS do anything? He states very clearly they are AT. Its the dealers that are not being honest I want them to go after. >>

Well, in order for PCGS to keep their reputation they should police their own slabbed coins. There is an image to uphold and integrity for their product. How that coin got into that particular slab is beyond me, but if I were PCGS I would definitely recall that # and make it void.

I am not bashing, just opining on the very crucial point that the coin in question should not be sold in a slab. -Dan

Zoins · February 22, 2008 12:50AM

<< 

<< 

<< Same old Pea*ock Coins, different day. Surely someone would not buy that coin. Will PCGS do anything about this, someone from there does monitor this forum? >>

Why should PCGS do anything? He states very clearly they are AT. Its the dealers that are not being honest I want them to go after. >>

Well, in order for PCGS to keep their reputation they should police their own slabbed coins. There is an image to uphold and integrity for their product. How that coin got into that particular slab is beyond me, but if I were PCGS I would definitely recall that # and make it void.

I am not bashing, just opining on the very crucial point that the coin in question should not be sold in a slab. -Dan >>

The blue one or the ASE? Technically he says his opinion is that it's QT and some think the coin is AT, he wrote:

<< Questionable toning (with some school of thought being outright AT), to be sure >>

eCoinquest · February 22, 2008 1:02AM

Actually, I have a few new coins in the oven now. OH, it sounds like they are burning, will have to go save them. The kids don't like burned coins..

This coin has to be doctored! Its to new!!???

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