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Does it sound like NGC and PCGS are scared of the coin doctors????
Newcomp103
Posts: 2,223 ✭
Let me just say before I start this...I am 100% against anyone altering a coin in any way, shape of form. I read the statements issued by the top 2 grading services and to be honest, I think they are questioning their own abilities at this point! I do not consider myself to be an expert in any coin related field...I am just a humble collector. They compared the coin doctoring techniques to that of computer viruses and hackers...well...the difference to me is this...the anti-virus and security people are constantly making adjustments to improve themselves....and yes...the TPGs(if they want to maintain their reputations) need to do the same. This is happening constantly in society...I work in a financial setting...I have to deal with fraud and deception daily...and I have to improve my understanding and act accordingly... Criminals advance...which means law enforcement does too. There are MANY more areas that have these struggles...but getting back to the topic...PCGS and NGC just need to step up their game, instead of pointing fingers at the problem and expecting it will just go away...it wont!
BTW...I hope that my opinion does not lead to me being banned, but if it does, I have enjoyed being here and thank each one of you for your contribution!!!
Shawn
BTW...I hope that my opinion does not lead to me being banned, but if it does, I have enjoyed being here and thank each one of you for your contribution!!!
Shawn
0
Comments
No, it sounds like they are pissed off and they ain't gonna take it anymore!
<< PCGS and NGC just need to step up their game, instead of pointing fingers at the problem and expecting it will just go away...it wont! >>
They need to point fingers, but they need to do it by outing the Doctors so we know whose stuff to avoid.
So are they scared? maybe, maybe not. PO'd, for sure. I would think fake slabs would be more worrisome in the long run, though. At least a doctored coin is (presumably) a genuine coin.
The name is LEE!
<< <i>that's straight to the point
Yep, and some good points regardless of what some may think. A few people above me have good points also. Out the known ones and refresh and upgrade the Grader's knowledge. Maybe build a computer that'll do a "sniff test" for chemically altered coins?
I'm like Ziggy on the "Fake Slab" issue. That would be a BIG problem.
wes
Too many positive BST transactions with too many members to list.
<< <i>They already body bag coins that are doctored, right???...are they now saying that they are unsure of their ability to detect them? I just dont understand. >>
Careful.... I basically had the same point a few days ago, and I was ripped to shreds. The counterpoint seems to be "who cares, as long as YOU didnt doctor the coin, the TPG will make YOU whole if you happen to get stuck with an altered coin". In my mind, im with you. As much as some people see these recent announcements as being "way to finally stop the doctoring PCGS/NGC", I view it as a sign of lack of confidence, or downright incompetence on the part of the TPG's. Here comes the flames, but Im use to it by now.
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<< <i>They already body bag coins that are doctored, right???...are they now saying that they are unsure of their ability to detect them? I just dont understand. >>
Careful.... I basically had the same point a few days ago, and I was ripped to shreds. The counterpoint seems to be "who cares, as long as YOU didnt doctor the coin, the TPG will make YOU whole if you happen to get stuck with an altered coin". In my mind, im with you. As much as some people see these recent announcements as being "way to finally stop the doctoring PCGS/NGC", I view it as a sign of lack of confidence, or downright incompetence on the part of the TPG's. Here comes the flames, but Im use to it by now.
Nothing wrong with this opinion. Stating it in an excitable and inflammatory manner along with stating the TPG's are voiding their guaranty is what got you 'ripped to shreds'.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>Scared? No. Angry and frustrated. Probably. >>
They are a business...anger and frustration come with that responsibility!
scared? no! ANNOYED? YES!
<< <i>Does it sound like NGC and PCGS are scared of the coin doctors???? >>
No.....Pissed....YES....!!!
If a coin gets through after the certifiers have inspected and graded it and in fact it has been messed with ...I'm sure they would not be delighted.In these modern days with available tools of lasars to modify coins to hide flaws it is a serious matter.The more scrutiny done to our coins to prove what they are such as labeling ..slabbing ..and stickering..the less enjoyable it is.I might as well just leave it be...!!! I know what it is and I don't have to prove anything to anyone....
<< <i>They already body bag coins that are doctored, right???...are they now saying that they are unsure of their ability to detect them? I just dont understand. >>
I don't think they're saying that at all.
It's not that the grading services can't spot doctored coins- they have to first recognize that something's been done to a coin before they can bb it. Once they've figured out that there's something funny going on, they'll know to look for it. But until then, there are going to be some coins which have already slipped through the cracks and made it into holders.
As long as collectors are willing to pay crazy money for wild toning or incrementally higher numbers on paper slab inserts, you can bet your azz there are people out there working on a way to supply that demand. And the people who are good at doctoring coins aren't stupid- when the grading services catch on to what's been done and how to spot it, the doctors will move on to something else.
And the cycle begins anew- lather, rinse, repeat...
The best one can do is buy time by putting new safeguards in place.
I don't envy the TPGs at all.
"Inspiration exists, but it has to find you working" Pablo Picasso
I think what happened about five years ago, the percentage of big ticket upgrades dropped noticeably. All of the crackout people complained about this bigtime on these boards. Not coincidentally, at that time, I started seeing far more coins with "questionable toning" (and I am being kind) making it into first tier slabs.
I think this problem has gotten so bad, that the majors decided to act, rather than risk the devaluation of their professional reputations, in addition to the possibility of making good on an increasing number of bad coins in their holders.
"Seu cabra da peste,
"Sou Mangueira......."
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<< <i>They already body bag coins that are doctored, right???...are they now saying that they are unsure of their ability to detect them? I just dont understand. >>
Careful.... I basically had the same point a few days ago, and I was ripped to shreds. The counterpoint seems to be "who cares, as long as YOU didnt doctor the coin, the TPG will make YOU whole if you happen to get stuck with an altered coin". In my mind, im with you. As much as some people see these recent announcements as being "way to finally stop the doctoring PCGS/NGC", I view it as a sign of lack of confidence, or downright incompetence on the part of the TPG's. Here comes the flames, but Im use to it by now.
Nothing wrong with this opinion. Stating it in an excitable and inflammatory manner along with stating the TPG's are voiding their guaranty is what got you 'ripped to shreds'. >>
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I think TDN has hit the nail on the head. They are NOT voiding their guarantee, they are not after coins doctored in 1897, but they are SICK and Tired of having to spend an hour on a coin making sure it's not altered. And for the life of me I don't understand why people get so excited over a very common date Morgan dollar with outstanding rainbow color bringing over $20,000 when, if dipped, it's worth $1,000 or less(see the 1880 $1881 S coins in Sunnywoods Morgan set or TDNS lovely tonedm monster raritys in his sets)
Note to exited people: The reason these "toners", be they Trade Dollars, Morgans or whatever is NOT the collectors being "Fooled" by a PCGS or NGC holder----The collectors/dealer rep.'s KNOW the real thing. THAT's WHY THEY ARE BID SO HIGH!!!!Anyone--I mean anyone-- who thinks they can detect doctoring from an Ebay photo is just nuts, and is wasting money.
Lastly the TPG's have thought about this a long time and they have every right to!
CLAMPING DOWN on dealers submitting gold coins that have been altered by micro lasers, spooned, or otherwise changed--then toned to hide the work that takes a microscope to see, saves the TPG's and collectors time and money. These denizens of EBAY and submittters of doctored cr@p are CRIMINALS commiting State fraud--plus the Federal crimes cited by Carol/PCGS
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>Does anyone think the FBI will care? Someone is coloring coins so they are going to pull resources from the war on terror and go after the coin doctors? >>
The govt does not care if you alter a coin unless you are trying to defraud by way of raising a coin or bills FACE value(like taking a one and turning it into a ten)! You can mutilate it all you want(like the machines at amusement parks that flatten and stamp), if you want to pay big money for flattened, stamped or colored coins, THATS YOUR PROBLEM, THE GOVT DOES NOT CARE!
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<< <i>Does anyone think the FBI will care? Someone is coloring coins so they are going to pull resources from the war on terror and go after the coin doctors? >>
The govt does not care if you alter a coin unless you are trying to defraud by way of raising a coin or bills FACE value(like taking a one and turning it into a ten)! You can mutilate it all you want(like the machines at amusement parks that flatten and stamp), if you want to pay big money for flattened, stamped or colored coins, THATS YOUR PROBLEM, THE GOVT DOES NOT CARE! >>
I disagree. If a coordinated scheme can be presented to the government by a public corporation, they will probably act.
to the TPG's: boby bag the coins and keep the submission fee (oh wait, that is what you do already, my bad).
to the collectors: educate, educate, educate yourselves (oh wait, we are too lazy to do that, my bad)
Say for example 5 years ago, someone submitted 10 proof Franklin half dollars that all were graded with DCAM designation and since then have botten 6 of these back because the coins were altered with something to make the DCAM frost
Or a fancy gold coin was sold in Heritage - and within a week submitted to PCGS raw from the purchaser - it grades MS67 because it is awesome
after a couple years, it is no longer awsome and there are a couple places on the field that look like putty is cracking
and PCGS has to buy the coin back for big bucks
they have always made lots of money from idiot beginners (like me) that submit coins that have been harshly cleaned with a steel wool pad or with a giant scratch that must have been made with a diamond or something or so blatantly AT'd that no one would buy it anyway
it is much cheaper I would imagine, to send the coin back with a sticker on the flip than have it go through the slabbing process
<< <i>sinin1 >>
Lets just say, from your example, a single coin has been graded by NGC and then PCGS and was deemed to be good enough for slabbing. Then, as you say, years later cracking putty has been found and the coin would now boddy bag at both services for doctoring of some sort.
Ok, so then how after X amount of years is PCGS or NGC going to punish said collector/dealer? There is no serial number on each coin that indicates where/who it came from before it was certified by PCGS or NGC. It has changed hands too many times to pin-point a culprit. And even if you could then it is he said/she said; you cannot prove it was their intent to decieve nor that they knew about said problem to begin with. Maybe someone passed this coin to them already doctored.
Bottom line; it is not possible folks and this is just posturing from a company, who understandably is frustrated, but has no power to effect any real change than to make a statement about their frustration.
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<< <i>sinin1 >>
Lets just say, from your example, a single coin has been graded by NGC and then PCGS and was deemed to be good enough for slabbing. Then, as you say, years later cracking putty has been found and the coin would now boddy bag at both services for doctoring of some sort.
Ok, so then how after X amount of years is PCGS or NGC going to punish said collector/dealer? There is no serial number on each coin that indicates where/who it came from before it was certified by PCGS or NGC. It has changed hands too many times to pin-point a culprit. And even if you could then it is he said/she said; you cannot prove it was their intent to decieve nor that they knew about said problem to begin with. Maybe someone passed this coin to them already doctored.
Bottom line; it is not possible folks and this is just posturing from a company, who understandably is frustrated, but has no power to effect any real change than to make a statement about their frustration. >>
No, there is no way to go after the submitter on that particular coin, but it does give them a name to more closely check future submissions against. Habitual offenders will be eventually found out. This is a GOOD THING!
<< <i>This is a GOOD THING! >>
Possibly, unfortunately only time will tell.
but what if say in the last 6 months they bought back 100 coins and paid out $250,000 in restitution
and from those 100 coins,
37 were submitted by 1 person
23 were submitted by 1 person
the rest submitted by people that had no more than 2 coins on the list
now even though the 2 people who submitted 60 of the bought back coins submit alot
they do well less than 0.01% of PCGS submission volume
do you feel this would be significant and maybe needs looking into?
<< <i>I agree, 1 coin does not make an obvious criminal
but what if say in the last 6 months they bought back 100 coins and paid out $250,000 in restitution
and from those 100 coins,
37 were submitted by 1 person
23 were submitted by 1 person
the rest submitted by people that had no more than 2 coins on the list
now even though the 2 people who submitted 60 of the bought back coins submit alot
they do well less than 0.01% of PCGS submission volume
do you feel this would be significant and maybe needs looking into? >>
When the collector is duped, the TPG is duped and the market gets a black eye, the responsibility is to be proactive. I see no fear in the eyes of those with integrity.
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
<< <i>I see no fear in the eyes of those with integrity. >>
Yes, it makes you wonder about those who are making the most noise . . .
<< <i>I agree, 1 coin does not make an obvious criminal
but what if say in the last 6 months they bought back 100 coins and paid out $250,000 in restitution
and from those 100 coins,
37 were submitted by 1 person
23 were submitted by 1 person
the rest submitted by people that had no more than 2 coins on the list
now even though the 2 people who submitted 60 of the bought back coins submit alot
they do well less than 0.01% of PCGS submission volume
do you feel this would be significant and maybe needs looking into? >>
Yes, I do. It has nothing to do with the percentage of overall volume submitted, only the percentage of doctored coins submitted. If 60 percent of PCGS's buybacks over a six month period came from only 2 dealers then there is definitely a problem with those 2 dealers and as a publicly traded company PCGS has a responsiblity to protect its interests from that problem.
I have no idea of what the actual numbers are
or how often they buy back coins
sure some heavily publicized coins make headlines, but many little $200-$400 coins are probably absorbed as well
<< <i>Some have thought that it is fair game to doctor coins, and if the they slip though, there are no consequences. An anology would be that people with hepatitis or AIDS are banned from donating blood, but doing so anyway and forcing the blood bank to "do their job" of detecting it. >>
I would certainley hope that a blood bank "does their job" in detecting problem blood donations, rather than just take the donor's word on it!!! In the same regards, with the high price of submission fees ($25 for 15-20 seconds) I would expect the TPG's to do their jobs by bagging ANY questionable coins. If you are a doctor, and you get 99 out of every 100 subs bagged, guess what? You search the classifieds for a new line of work! Im sick of hearing "this doesnt affect the customer, just crooked dealers/doctors". Thats bullchit. It does affect me as a NON dealer/doctor, and strictly a collector. If I accumulate over the course of the next 20 years, $50,000 worth of slabbed problem coins because I had faith in the TPG's abilities to keep such crap out of their plastic, then what? Can anyone in this forum UNCONDITIONALLY GUARANTEE to me that PCGS/NGC will still be a profitable, or even an existing business that far down the road? Also, as another member pointed out in this thread, the new/reiteration of policies on this subject by NGC/PCGS could be a weakening of their buyback guarantees, with new policies down the road that may even completely absolve them of any liability to ANYONE concerning doctored coins. Its the ole "foot in the door" syndrome. By shifting financial liability today that just would affect dealers/doctors, they have opened the possibility of shifting any liability whatsoever in the future on this topic. And that my friends is one scary thought!
Edited to add: TDN wont be happy with me!!!
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<< <i>Some have thought that it is fair game to doctor coins, and if the they slip though, there are no consequences. An anology would be that people with hepatitis or AIDS are banned from donating blood, but doing so anyway and forcing the blood bank to "do their job" of detecting it. >>
I would certainley hope that a blood bank "does their job" in detecting problem blood donations, rather than just take the donor's word on it!!! In the same regards, with the high price of submission fees ($25 for 15-20 seconds) I would expect the TPG's to do their jobs by bagging ANY questionable coins. If you are a doctor, and you get 99 out of every 100 subs bagged, guess what? [etc....] >>
If you are a collector who gets 99 out of every 100 album-toned coins bagged, you'll be expressing a whole 'nother level of frustration.
You seem confident that these announcements -- really just "reinforc[ing]" messages -- reveal a sense of helplessness on the part of the TPGs. I don't know how you got there. Have you been burned? How many coins do you have in your slabbed collection that you now believe are AT'd?
You're concerned that the TPGs won't be around decades and decades down the road to bail you out of a doctored coin that has sat -- undetected -- in your lifetime collection. Well, no, to answer your red-herring question, nobody is going to guarantee that your heirs won't get a dealer turning up his nose at pieces in your sets.
The real solution for your anxiety is to empower yourself with some knowledge. Learn the basics yourself, instead of blaming someone else for a lack of confidence. (There are plenty of books, videos and courses out there on grading and detection of problem coins.) Absent any evidence in your doom-and-gloom posts that show that the TPGs have refused to investigate and then compensate for mistakenly slabbed "doctored" coins, it seems that it is you that's helpless -- not PCGS and NGC.
All yea saw a 1885-o ms63 for you ready!!!!BIN $3995 buck's, i have seen it all
<< <i>I could be off here, but has anyone noticed how much alot of older and newer slabbed toner's are going for these day's? The morgan's are down right pitiful, alot of commen stuff going for sky high price's in lower grade's ms60-64 l mean like three or more time's the value. I was on the bay before christmas and there was this 83 morgan graded ms-63, was nice looking, nice color's so i bid maybe alittle over value (i liked the color) with two minutes two go the price started climbing and went up and up, winner paid something like $279 for and my jaw hit the floor because i allso had a bid in on a 81-s pcgs ms65 with a real nice crescent on the reverse and had a strong bid in, got it for $95 bucks go figure, what i'm getting at is this, with the strong prices SUCKER'S are willing to to pay i would guess everyone and there mom are submitting any and all nt,at,tt,AND BBSTC, and they the grader's are getting sick of it (and all the other doctered stuff too!) just a thoult
All yea saw a 1885-o ms63 for you ready!!!!BIN $3995 buck's, i have seen it all >>
The graders are getting "sick of it"? Thats their job. If a coin comes into a TPG and after 1 minute of deliberations the color is questionable, BODYBAG THAT NASTY DOG! So lets see, lets do some quick math. $25 for the submission, 1 minute to see its been doctored, thats a $1,500/hour rate for the TPG. Now tell me again where the problem is?
Gecko - try as they might, the TPG's will never fully replace a trusted expert set of eyes. Errors and benefits of the doubt have accumulated for too many years. Anyone spending significant money on coins would do well to associate with a competent dealer who can screen out bad coins for them ... until such a time as they've seen enough to do it themselves. FWIW, I've collected for 40 years and won a grading contest and don't feel I can do that yet.
<< <i>I believe that there's one more added effect behind the scenes of this announcement. IIRC, on this forum HRH stated that coins were bagged only if they were sure they were AT. From this, we might presume the same philosophy has existed in the past for other forms of doctoring - they bagged them if they were sure. I would wager that they're now erring on the side of conservicity and bagging coins they're not sure about in either direction.
Gecko - try as they might, the TPG's will never fully replace a trusted expert set of eyes. Errors and benefits of the doubt have accumulated for too many years. Anyone spending significant money on coins would do well to associate with a competent dealer who can screen out bad coins for them ... until such a time as they've seen enough to do it themselves. FWIW, I've collected for 40 years and won a grading contest and don't feel I can do that yet. >>
Well put TDN. Unfortunately in my case, and I dont mean to sound paranoid at all, but every coin dealer I have dealt with locally is about as trustworthy as a used car salesman. I refuse to "out" any of them, but lets just say that even after repeated visits in my earlier collecting days, I have been sold chit coins. It would be some foreign concept to me to have a dealer actually "on my side" for a change. All the ones I have dealt with seem more interested in short term gains by selling, or offering me crap just to make their quick buck. I can actually not once recall any single instance where I asked to see a coin in a case and the dealer steered me clear of making the purchase! Lets face it, dealers dont want to be friends with me, they want my FRN's, pure and simple. Is there any dealer in the Chicago area who you could refer me to that would actually care more about a lasting customer relationship rather than how much he can rip from me on a raw, severly overgraded Isabella quarter?
Send Saintguru a PM for other good names in that area.
Not sure they are dialed in just yet.
<< <i>I would think that the resubmishion's and crossover's on coin's allready graded would be, hum let's see we said it was ok then but now we say bb,what's the value of this coin at the grade we gave it before." gulp" the boss ain't going to like this, i'm not for sure and i'm just tossing stuff out there don't mean to upset anyone with my comment's >>
I cant speak for everyone, but you are in no way upsetting me at all. I love to discuss ideas and opinions with others in a respectful manner. You have touched on the very reason for this "new" crackdown on doctored coins, and thats financial liability. I dont blame PCGS/NGC not wanting to foot the bill on "mistakes" that slipped by their graders at all! But I think fewer mistakes would be made if they would maybe just slow down a tad rather than look at a coin for 10-20 seconds and slab it. And if there is any doubt what-so-ever about the coin's originality, then BB it. Its that simple. What really frightens me is that PCGS/NGC must really be making alot of mistakes, and alot of costly buybacks, for them to have made these announcements this week. As a collector/consumer, that worries me deeply. Now I have to make my own determination about the originality of a PCGS slabbed coin at the next show I go to? Isnt that why I buy slabbed rather than raw coins in the 1st place? So I dont have to worry if a mint mark will fall off my coin in 5 years? I can fairly accurately give a technical grade on just about ANY coin at this stage in my collecting "career". But very few people, including myself, can accurately tell a counterfeit coin from a real one in all instances. Or an altered coin from an original one in all instances, and apparently even top dog $200,000+/ year coin graders cant either!
<< <i>Gecko - contact Mike Printz at Whitlow. They deal mainly in PCGS coins and have quality product.
Send Saintguru a PM for other good names in that area. >>
Thanks Bruce. I'll check into that! By the way, im a small timer. I buy stuff like MS64 seated coins, large cents, and other type coins. Do those guys have the patience for someone who might spend only $1,000 at a crack?