So I guess this means the seller can still do a reply to a neg feedback which won't affect the buyers score but at least you get to tell your side. That is if you can in 4 characters
CNN article of relevence CNN Link. Note the last paragraph, while in theory, that would be a good thing, the points brought up in the post make it bad....
As I see it...This move by ebay will be enough to push me out of their playhouse...
No FB for buyers...possible delayed receipt of payments...higher final value fees...No Way I'd attempt to do business in such an environment...
Soooo...I won't be able to sell there...and if these new policies chase other quality sellers off, I won't be able to buy there, either...
...because ebay may become what they've perhaps always wanted to be... a garage sale/flea market devoid of quality or integrity...
Re: Slabbed coins - There are some coins that LIVE within clear plastic and wear their labels with pride... while there are others that HIDE behind scratched plastic and are simply dragged along by a label. Then there are those coins that simply hang out, naked and free
<< <i>Here's the reason: "No negative or neutral Feedback for buyers The current system prevents buyers from leaving honest Feedback as they fear retaliation from the sellers if they leave a negative. This makes it hard for buyers to distinguish between sellers while making bidding or buying decisions. In addition, when buyers receive negative Feedback, they reduce their activity in the marketplace, which in-turn harms all sellers."
The first reason was also why they started the star system. I guess that it didn't help too much.
Sorry guys, I disagree with most of you here...I think they have a point >>
This is an interesting thought, and I agree with you on their reasoning. Unfortunately, as others have mentioned buyers are now wide open to extort feedback from sellers. I guess the only saving grace is the feedback will only stay visible for 12 months. Should be interesting. This will definately hurt the bad sellers, that is the only saving grace I can find in this change.
<< <i>The more sellers leaving, the better for the sellers remaining. I think that might bring other sellers back >>
That's only true for people selling widgets. If you have a scarce coin that only comes on eBay maybe once a month, but don't want to sell on eBay because of the higher fees and Feedback F-Up (now known as the FFU®) that coin isn't available to eBay buyers. Buyers looking for scarce coins will leave...ripple effect...sellers leave....more buyers leave and so on...
Positive BST transactions with: too many names to list! 36 at last count.
<< <i>So, you are saying that a Seller's feedback is important, and the Buyer's feedback is irrelevant. >>
Not exactly- I mean that a buyer's feedback is less important (*not* irrelevant, at least until the new change occurs) than a seller's feedback.
<< <i>Why do you care about Buyer's feedback? >>
For the most part, I don't, really. Unless maybe he has lots of feedback for non-payment or some other sort of problem. Problem is...
<< <i>Does anyone check Buyer's feedback and cancel their bids if it's not acceptable? >>
Not me. Who has the time for that? Most bidders aren't any trouble at all, so it doesn't pay to spend time trying to track down that 1 in 1,000 who is.
So - the change in feedback policy and the new fee structure are linked - powersellers with high feedback get a discount...so feedback really does matter now...
* If you are a PowerSeller and all four of your detailed seller ratings (DSRs) for the past 30 day period are 4.6 or higher, you qualify for a 5% discount on Final Value Fees * If you are a PowerSeller and all four of your detailed seller ratings (DSRs) for the past 30 day period are 4.8 or higher, you qualify for a 15% discount on Final Value Fees
<< <i>So - the change in feedback policy and the new fee structure are linked - powersellers with high feedback get a discount...so feedback really does matter now...
* If you are a PowerSeller and all four of your detailed seller ratings (DSRs) for the past 30 day period are 4.6 or higher, you qualify for a 5% discount on Final Value Fees * If you are a PowerSeller and all four of your detailed seller ratings (DSRs) for the past 30 day period are 4.8 or higher, you qualify for a 15% discount on Final Value Fees >>
AHA!!!! You may have stumbled on the reason why ebay wants to let buyers knock down sellers ratings with no consequences, higher fees for ebay!!! It is still idiotic and in the end biting the hand(s) that feeds them.
<< <i>So - the change in feedback policy and the new fee structure are linked - powersellers with high feedback get a discount...so feedback really does matter now... >>
For sellers, feedback mattered before- if you had crappy feedback, you got fewer bids.
<< <i>* If you are a PowerSeller and all four of your detailed seller ratings (DSRs) for the past 30 day period are 4.8 or higher, you qualify for a 15% discount on Final Value Fees >>
BFD. I offer free shipping for auction buyers who pay by check/money order and my "Shipping and handling charges" rating is at 4.7. You think maybe I need to pay people to take stuff off my hands instead of charging them for the things they bid on to jack my percentage up?
<< Sellers will no longer be able to leave negative or neutral Feedback for buyers. This change will occur in May, 2008. >>
Heck, I could have told you this was going to happen. When ebay took away my right to leave myself a negative feedback for a non-transaction, I knew ebay was going downhill!!
Indeed, I left myself two negative and one neutral feedback to myself back in 1998-1999. Check it out. Look at my user name oreville.
Our redesigned site will be up and running within the next week...everyone is welcome!
You Suck! Awarded 6/2008- 1901-O Micro O Morgan, 8/2008- 1878 VAM-123 Morgan, 9/2022 1888-O VAM-1B3 H8 Morgan | Senior Regional Representative- ANACS Coin Grading. Posted opinions on coins are my own, and are not an official ANACS opinion.
Here's my plan. I'm not going to sell anything on ebay once the rule takes effect. I'm going to bid on anything that's a remotely good bargain. I'll decide after I've won the item whether or not it actually was a good purchase. If not, I won't pay for it. If I need to veiw the coin in hand to determine that it's not, then I'll just do a Chargeback. Meanwhile, I'll keep building up my 100% feedback until Ebay has driven away so many Sellers that the pendulm swings in favor of the Seller, then I'll start selling all my bargains with my huge 100% feedback rating.
I LOVE IT. Yep, this is great move Ebay.
*****Indeed, I left myself two negative and one neutral feedback to myself back in 1998-1999. Check it out. Look at my user name oreville. ******
This effectively eliminates it but does not change the content of Positive Feedback. So the numbers will be unchanged but the content could define a whole new story.
I decided to change calling the bathroom the John and renamed it the Jim. I feel so much better saying I went to the Jim this morning.
<< <i>With this change I would expect that an excellent seller will have a positive FB rating in the 90-95% percentile. This will not instill confidence in bidders and will likely lead to fewer sales and lower closing prices and fees that is of concern to eBay now. I would also expect to receive the thinly veiled extortion attempts that are currently prevalent to sellers that leave FB first.
As time progresses it seems that eBay understands less and less about their business model. >>
They absolutely understand their business model. It seems from the responses I've seen here that none of you have worked in a corporate environment. You are actually addressing the arguments made in their statement as though these were their actual justifications. Doing this puts you in danger of overlooking the real insiduous nature of these proposed changes. My argument is that they know exactly what they are doing, and are doing so to maximize their profit. They are in essence moving the entire business model from an auction format into more of a storefront format with the illusion of an auction format and here's why:
1. They are taking actions to maximize the number of bidders/buyers and their willingness to bid and buy. Less fear of retaliation means less fear for sloppy buying habits. Besides, buyers are used to online shopping in this day and age and as such are beginning to expect the same types of services as they would expect from any online vendor. Since eBay doesn't need to worry about offering those services, they are effectively increasing the buying base without adding any cost to their business. In addition, they are reducing insertion fees (while raising final value fees! (something I think you all would have more beef with than the seller feedback issue). So, not only are they increasing the number of buyers coming into the store, they are increasing the amount of product available. And when that product sells, they make more money off of it! How is this not a good business idea for them?
2. Note the major changes on the seller's side of the house. These are designed to consolidate and prioritize selling to high volume vendors rather than more infrequent ones. They have explicitly targeted powersellers and are offerring extended services to them (including final value fee discounts) and are raising the bar for entry for them. They are also changing search algorithms to prioritize high volume dealers (those who are constantly doing business to keep up their feedback and rating status per the new time frames for rating). This means the little guy won't have the same chance to sell a coin as the big guy. The big guy will get priority hits against their auctions. From a business perspective, they are basically consolidating their distribution centers (read powersellers) for a more dependable and stable source of income. And while they're taking away the neg and neutral feedback options for sellers, they offering powersellers far more protection against unpaying buyers and automatic chargebacks. For the little guy...no such thing. Think hard about this, what does eBay care how many little sellers there are. Since they are raising final value fees, they are only concerned with volume, not cross-sectional diversity. Again, how is this not a good business idea for them?
With the prevalence of sniping programs, and the tendency to not bid up an item, but rather to wait to the last minute to enter a bid among buyers, how, I ask you all, is this not becoming more like a storefront rather than an auction house? Why keep the auction format you might ask? Because people have all sorts of emotional weather surronding auctions. The sense of scoring a rip, of competition, of searching for treasure, these are powerful motivations for many buyers. I would expect that many of us who have listed items as either BIN or in eBay stores have watched the same items sell for equal or greater values when in the bidding format.
We should all beware of not the inability to neg a buyer, but of being pushed out of, for many of us, our largest selling venue.
<< <i>they are increasing the amount of product available. >>
I disagree....in the long term anyway. People will list more in the short term because of the lower listing fees, but soon - and it will be very soon - when sellers realize they are paying more on the backend AND giving the buyer 100% of the power to do whatever the heck he wants, sellers will leave eBay. When sellers leave, bidders will leave because quality product won't be there. This is why eBay isn't following a good long term business model. I would predict profits will fall quite a bit in 2009.
Positive BST transactions with: too many names to list! 36 at last count.
Looks like a door opening if PCGS wants to create their own non-partisan coin auction site. The BST forum here already has a lot of confidence between buyers and sellers, an alternative here probably could work. I guarantee I would use it over eBay.
<< <i>they are increasing the amount of product available. >>
I disagree....in the long term anyway. People will list more in the short term because of the lower listing fees, but soon - and it will be very soon - when sellers realize they are paying more on the backend AND giving the buyer 100% of the power to do whatever the heck he wants, sellers will leave eBay. When sellers leave, bidders will leave because quality product won't be there. This is why eBay isn't following a good long term business model. I would predict profits will fall quite a bit in 2009. >>
I was speaking as the devil's advocate here. I actually agree with you here, but I wonder if time will prove us correct or not. eBay must be banking on the fact that they have no competition. Where are all of these sellers going to go? Where will we go? Are the fees less on teletrade or heritage? Not at all.
malachi555 - excellent reasoning. It does seem like they are squeezing out the little guys and shifting their business model. Powersellers are in essence eBay's salespeople and high performers always garner the lion's share of the incentives and perks. It's just ashame that folks like me who may list items once or twice a month are essentially being told that we don't matter because we aren't Powersellers.
I turned down Powerseller status mainly because I list when I want to, not because I feel compelled to list to hold my Powerseller status.
eBay grew to what it is because it was a great venue for the everyday Joe to sell stuff. Now that they're a behemoth, sellers like me seem to be a waste of their time.
Consumers want the thrill of treasure hunting on Ebay with the safety of shopping on amazon.com or some other storefront site.
Ebay will continue to have the illusion of being an auction site (and they actively market themselves as such), but the good old days of Ebay are long gone, and the wide open auction days are over.
What would help is if Ebay had a time limit within which payment has to be received. To successfully convert to an 'auction-storefront' format, they are going to have to make payment due at the end of the auction. If you want something from an online store, you have to pay for it first. This will drive sellers away from accepting checks and money orders, which significantly delay the completion of a transaction, and carry additional risks of fraud. This move will push more and more business to Paypal, which further increases Ebay's bottom line.
Set yourself up a merchant account to start taking your own credit card payments.
I guess the bottom line is that selling on Ebay means doing business. And the First Rule of Business? The Customer is ALWAYS Right!
<< <i>Where will we go? Are the fees less on teletrade or heritage? Not at all. >>
This is true. Thankfully, I'm more of a small time collector...certainly not a dealer. I sell just a few coins a month on eBay. I can use the BST quite successfully. I think the BST will see quite an increase in items due to eBay's new policies. Will the BST ever have an auction venue? Probably not and a few years down the road it could have all the same problems eBay does. There's no easy answer I guess. Maybe eBay is banking on the fact that they have very little, if any, competition....of course, that competition could come at any time
Positive BST transactions with: too many names to list! 36 at last count.
<< <i>Where will we go? Are the fees less on teletrade or heritage? Not at all. >>
This is true. Thankfully, I'm more of a small time collector...certainly not a dealer. I sell just a few coins a month on eBay. I can use the BST quite successfully. I think the BST will see quite an increase in items due to eBay's new policies. >>
For now, this is the attitude eBay can (probably correctly) bank on -- they'll assume that sellers have no real alternatives, so they'll bend over and take it.
I think they may overestimate the number of times they can work this golden goose without killing it, though. I used the BST extensively when I sold my type set here last year, and this certainly makes it much more likely that BST will be my first choice again in the future -- especially since I sold something like 30 coins in 20 transactions on BST and every sale went off cleanly, flawlessly and without a hitch.
I believe everyone is overlooking some of the other provisions. With the new system if a Buyer leaves a negative and has not paid for the item or the seller can show proof of delivery the negative will be automatically removed. This policy also applies to buyers who do not respond to "Item not Paid" notices. Plus any negatives left by NARUD buyers will also be removed.
I really don't believe it's a case of the sky is falling - except for some of the sleaze bags. Those sellers that automatically leave negs or neutral when they get one won't be able to do that anymore.
I for one like the new rule. I have posted this before, but have a situation right now where I should leave a seller a negative for not delivering a coin. I'm positive if I neg him he will respond with a neg. I used the BIN and paid instantly - three days later the seller says he can't find the coin and thinks he might have sold it. Looking at his feed back it's not the first time he's done this.
He then had the gall to file an unpaid item dispute saying we had agreed to cancel the transaction. If I agreed he would get his listing fees back. I did not agree that we canceled the transaction - I think it's seller non-performance just like a non-paying buyer.
He refunded my money, but he should still get a negative which means I will get an undeserved negative.
Who is General Failure, and why is he reading my hard drive?
Excellent news! I have been an advocate for this for a long time! Sellers should not be able to leave any feedback, good or bad for a buyer. All allowing that does is to promote feedback extortion and skewed feedback numbers for the people that need to have feedback left for them, the sellers.
I DO NOT care what other buyers feedback is, I am not buying from them. I only want to know how a seller treats people. The VERY few deserved negatives on buyers by sellers do not make up for the fact that buyers do not leave deserved negative or neutral feedback on sellers for fear of retalitory feedback. If you are a seller and cannot handle a couple of bad transactions from sellers that you would rather not do business with, you should think about quitting your business and getting into another industry.
Wow...eBay is really focking sellers who aren't Powersellers... looks like they want to make it a venue for importers and drop-shippers of cheap consumer goods and drive out the hobbyists and collectible sellers.
<< <i>Given all the complaints and rage on this thread, I bet most, if not all of you will still sell on ebay after the new FB system kicks in. >>
I for one, DID respond to ebay with my feelings, I am sure several others also did. You are correct, that I will still sell on ebay, but only until it becomes a negative cash flow issue. I do not make money on ebay, I sell my extra coins there. I also charge $1.00 shipping on most things, and went through a patch where somehow it seemed buyers got wind of me not using delivery confirmation, took advantage of my shipping breaks to them (I can ship 2-3 coins for that same dollar, and give buyers a break), but got a RASH of "I didn't receive my items" it seemed like all in a row. It WASN'T the USPS. It was what we who are negative about this change fear. Buyers on ebay are bargain hunters, and a few are outright theives and con artists. I made everyone who didn't recieve their products right, then changed my listings and how I ship (still through the PO but with del conf where I thought I should use it). No more "I didn't get my items". Would you pay top dollar for someone with 95% feedback? 97%? 90%? 85%? If your item is damaged in the mail, or lost in the mail, and you are a buyer, why go through contacting me to fix it if you can just NEG me and file a Never Received or Not Recieved as promised dispute? So at what point will the bad buyers ruin my seller rating enough that it is not worth it for me to sell there anymore? We as sellers just know what is coming, and the only thing I have read through these comments today that makes sense is that PAYPAL may be the only way to accept payments through ebay anymore, and EVERYTHING ebay is doing is to increase their TAKE on sales.
<< <i>Excellent news! I have been an advocate for this for a long time! Sellers should not be able to leave any feedback, good or bad for a buyer. All allowing that does is to promote feedback extortion and skewed feedback numbers for the people that need to have feedback left for them, the sellers.
I DO NOT care what other buyers feedback is, I am not buying from them. I only want to know how a seller treats people. The VERY few deserved negatives on buyers by sellers do not make up for the fact that buyers do not leave deserved negative or neutral feedback on sellers for fear of retalitory feedback. If you are a seller and cannot handle a couple of bad transactions from sellers that you would rather not do business with, you should think about quitting your business and getting into another industry.
BRAVO Ebay!
>>
Geez, that was about as stupid a thing I’ve heard other than the stupid crap Ron Paul spews. Sellers want to know because they don't want to sell to dead beats, period. In case you haven’t noticed there are a lot of scam artists on eBay and they are both sellers and BUYERS! Maybe you aren't a seller so you don't care. I have yet to leave a single negative for a buyer but I certainly want to be able to if they are unfair and at times many were but I was always able to work it out or I just don’t leave any feedback.
What makes you think that this makes any sense? "If you are a seller and cannot handle a couple of bad transactions from sellers that you would rather not do business with, you should think about quitting your business and getting into another industry".
Chill out. If sellers leave eBay then what will the buyers buy?
Starting in February, PayPal will dramatically improve seller protection for PowerSellers. Currently, PowerSellers are already protected against unauthorized and non-receipt claims and chargebacks. With expanded seller protection:
PayPal will no longer require that PowerSellers ship to confirmed addresses for items sold on eBay. Every address in the PayPal system will be considered a confirmed address for PowerSellers.
For PowerSellers there will no longer be an annual $5,000 limit on seller protection...you'll have unlimited protection coverage.
Also starting in February – seller protection will be extended to cover transactions with buyers in many markets around the world (instead of only to US, Canada and the UK). Now PowerSellers can sell with confidence to a much larger group of buyers.
"Bongo drive 1984 Lincoln that looks like old coin dug from ground."
<< <i>Another thought for those of you partial to conspiracies- maybe the feedback policy is being changed this way because eBay figures that outrage over it will draw attention away from the fee increases... >>
Bingo!!
I never thought that growing old would happen so fast. - Jim
<< <i>"In addition, when buyers receive negative Feedback, they reduce their activity in the marketplace, which in-turn harms all sellers." >>
Not to mention that "it hurts our eBay profits", right?
I guess it hasn't dawned on them that their profits will be cut drastically because of much fewer items being listed by sellers due to this new unfair "feedback" policy change?
I never thought that growing old would happen so fast. - Jim
I think this will end my selling on Ebay. I'll see what happens between now and May but I think this is ridiculous. Ebay will drive away sellers with this one sided feedback system and higher fees plus their revenues will drop. The BST here, Teletrade, and Heritage are good places to sell most of the items I list on Ebay.
<< <i>Starting in February, PayPal will dramatically improve seller protection for PowerSellers. Currently, PowerSellers are already protected against unauthorized and non-receipt claims and chargebacks. With expanded seller protection:
PayPal will no longer require that PowerSellers ship to confirmed addresses for items sold on eBay. Every address in the PayPal system will be considered a confirmed address for PowerSellers.
For PowerSellers there will no longer be an annual $5,000 limit on seller protection...you'll have unlimited protection coverage. >>
Sounds nice, but in reality it's a load of crap. I was talking to a Powerseller today, somebody who has perfect feedback across thousands of transactions and does about a million dollars a year, and he just got hosed out of $1300 by PayPal when the buyer filed a chargeback. Why? Because even though he followed all the rules - shipped to the confirmed address, used signature confirmation, etc - the name of the person who signed for the item was different than the name on the PayPal account.
Fact of the matter is, we all are thinking about this change for 2 hours at most. eBay execs spent days and weeks thinking about these changes. I'm sure the odds are that this will benefit eBay's bottom line. Who cares about buyers? Who gives a hoot about sellers? It's all about the shareholders!
<< <i>Starting in February, PayPal will dramatically improve seller protection for PowerSellers. Currently, PowerSellers are already protected against unauthorized and non-receipt claims and chargebacks. With expanded seller protection:
PayPal will no longer require that PowerSellers ship to confirmed addresses for items sold on eBay. Every address in the PayPal system will be considered a confirmed address for PowerSellers.
For PowerSellers there will no longer be an annual $5,000 limit on seller protection...you'll have unlimited protection coverage. >>
Sounds nice, but in reality it's a load of crap. I was talking to a Powerseller today, somebody who has perfect feedback across thousands of transactions and does about a million dollars a year, and he just got hosed out of $1300 by PayPal when the buyer filed a chargeback. Why? Because even though he followed all the rules - shipped to the confirmed address, used signature confirmation, etc - the name of the person who signed for the item was different than the name on the PayPal account.
Russ, NCNE >>
Russ what is the crap they're talking about "preventing auto chargebacks." I've heard this type of thing where the seller gets screwed many times on this forum because of technicalities.
<< <i>Fact of the matter is, we all are thinking about this change for 2 hours at most. eBay execs spent days and weeks thinking about these changes. I'm sure the odds are that this will benefit eBay's bottom line. Who cares about buyers? Who gives a hoot about sellers? It's all about the shareholders! >>
The question is, are we talking about short-term shareholders or long-term shareholders? I have little doubt that a little revenue goose will benefit short-term shareholders. But I'm not convinced long-term shareholders are best served with this.
Then again, that's a long-standing issue I've had with Wall Street and public companies -- too much emphasis on the next couple of quarters and not enough emphasis on the next 5, 10 or 20 years.
<< <i> And the First Rule of Business? The Customer is ALWAYS Right! >>
That was generally accepted by businesses when I was growing up (decades ago) but try explaining that principle to local supermarket cashiers, etc. nowadays. Instead of a "thank you", you get "here's your change". After getting home and noticing that they overcharged you $2.50 for an item and wasting your time and gas taking it back to the store with receipt in hand, instead of an apology they usually give you an irritated look as if it was all YOUR fault.
I never thought that growing old would happen so fast. - Jim
Comments
So, you are saying that a Seller's feedback is important, and the Buyer's feedback is irrelevant.
Why do you care about Buyer's feedback? Does anyone check Buyer's feedback and cancel their bids if it's not acceptable?
Edited cuz I can't spell
My World Coin Type Set
No FB for buyers...possible delayed receipt of payments...higher final value fees...No Way I'd attempt to do business in such an environment...
Soooo...I won't be able to sell there...and if these new policies chase other quality sellers off, I won't be able to buy there, either...
...because ebay may become what they've perhaps always wanted to be... a garage sale/flea market devoid of quality or integrity...
<< <i>Here's the reason:
"No negative or neutral Feedback for buyers
The current system prevents buyers from leaving honest Feedback as they fear retaliation from the sellers if they leave a negative. This makes it hard for buyers to distinguish between sellers while making bidding or buying decisions. In addition, when buyers receive negative Feedback, they reduce their activity in the marketplace, which in-turn harms all sellers."
The first reason was also why they started the star system. I guess that it didn't help too much.
Sorry guys, I disagree with most of you here...I think they have a point >>
This is an interesting thought, and I agree with you on their reasoning. Unfortunately, as others have mentioned buyers are now wide open to extort feedback from sellers. I guess the only saving grace is the feedback will only stay visible for 12 months. Should be interesting.
This will definately hurt the bad sellers, that is the only saving grace I can find in this change.
<< <i>The more sellers leaving, the better for the sellers remaining. I think that might bring other sellers back >>
That's only true for people selling widgets. If you have a scarce coin that only comes on eBay maybe once a month, but don't want to sell on eBay because of the higher fees and Feedback F-Up (now known as the FFU®) that coin isn't available to eBay buyers. Buyers looking for scarce coins will leave...ripple effect...sellers leave....more buyers leave and so on...
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars • Variety Attribution
<< <i>So, you are saying that a Seller's feedback is important, and the Buyer's feedback is irrelevant. >>
Not exactly- I mean that a buyer's feedback is less important (*not* irrelevant, at least until the new change occurs) than a seller's feedback.
<< <i>Why do you care about Buyer's feedback? >>
For the most part, I don't, really. Unless maybe he has lots of feedback for non-payment or some other sort of problem. Problem is...
<< <i>Does anyone check Buyer's feedback and cancel their bids if it's not acceptable? >>
Not me. Who has the time for that? Most bidders aren't any trouble at all, so it doesn't pay to spend time trying to track down that 1 in 1,000 who is.
* If you are a PowerSeller and all four of your detailed seller ratings (DSRs) for the past 30 day period are 4.6 or higher, you qualify for a 5% discount on Final Value Fees
* If you are a PowerSeller and all four of your detailed seller ratings (DSRs) for the past 30 day period are 4.8 or higher, you qualify for a 15% discount on Final Value Fees
National Treasure Shop
<< <i>So - the change in feedback policy and the new fee structure are linked - powersellers with high feedback get a discount...so feedback really does matter now...
* If you are a PowerSeller and all four of your detailed seller ratings (DSRs) for the past 30 day period are 4.6 or higher, you qualify for a 5% discount on Final Value Fees
* If you are a PowerSeller and all four of your detailed seller ratings (DSRs) for the past 30 day period are 4.8 or higher, you qualify for a 15% discount on Final Value Fees >>
AHA!!!! You may have stumbled on the reason why ebay wants to let buyers knock down sellers ratings with no consequences, higher fees for ebay!!! It is still idiotic and in the end biting the hand(s) that feeds them.
<< <i>Given eBay's historically demonstrated boundless capacity for stupidity, does this really shock anyone? >>
I'm not sure it's all stupidity. I think some of it is just plain arrogance. They are a de facto monopoly if not an actual one and they know it.
I think at least some of what they are doing is being done because they don't fear competition.
Russ, NCNE
<< <i>So - the change in feedback policy and the new fee structure are linked - powersellers with high feedback get a discount...so feedback really does matter now... >>
For sellers, feedback mattered before- if you had crappy feedback, you got fewer bids.
<< <i>* If you are a PowerSeller and all four of your detailed seller ratings (DSRs) for the past 30 day period are 4.8 or higher, you qualify for a 15% discount on Final Value Fees >>
BFD. I offer free shipping for auction buyers who pay by check/money order and my "Shipping and handling charges" rating is at 4.7. You think maybe I need to pay people to take stuff off my hands instead of charging them for the things they bid on to jack my percentage up?
<< Sellers will no longer be able to leave negative or neutral Feedback for buyers. This change will occur in May, 2008. >>
Heck, I could have told you this was going to happen. When ebay took away my right to leave myself a negative feedback for a non-transaction, I knew ebay was going downhill!!
Indeed, I left myself two negative and one neutral feedback to myself back in 1998-1999. Check it out. Look at my user name oreville.
Here's my plan. I'm not going to sell anything on ebay once the rule takes effect. I'm going to bid on anything that's a remotely good bargain. I'll decide after I've won the item whether or not it actually was a good purchase. If not, I won't pay for it. If I need to veiw the coin in hand to determine that it's not, then I'll just do a Chargeback. Meanwhile, I'll keep building up my 100% feedback until Ebay has driven away so many Sellers that the pendulm swings in favor of the Seller, then I'll start selling all my bargains with my huge 100% feedback rating.
I LOVE IT. Yep, this is great move Ebay.
*****Indeed, I left myself two negative and one neutral feedback to myself back in 1998-1999. Check it out. Look at my user name oreville. ******
EBay will still have the policy of NARU'ing bidders that don't pay. Your 100% feedback will be useless.
My World Coin Type Set
You multiple that sentence by 5,000 and you'll know why their stock has been dead money for 4 years.
RETALITORY FEEDBACK
This effectively eliminates it but does not change the content of Positive Feedback. So the numbers will be unchanged but the content could define a whole new story.
The name is LEE!
<< <i>With this change I would expect that an excellent seller will have a positive FB rating in the 90-95% percentile. This will not instill confidence in bidders and will likely lead to fewer sales and lower closing prices and fees that is of concern to eBay now. I would also expect to receive the thinly veiled extortion attempts that are currently prevalent to sellers that leave FB first.
As time progresses it seems that eBay understands less and less about their business model. >>
They absolutely understand their business model. It seems from the responses I've seen here that none of you have worked in a corporate environment. You are actually addressing the arguments made in their statement as though these were their actual justifications. Doing this puts you in danger of overlooking the real insiduous nature of these proposed changes. My argument is that they know exactly what they are doing, and are doing so to maximize their profit. They are in essence moving the entire business model from an auction format into more of a storefront format with the illusion of an auction format and here's why:
1. They are taking actions to maximize the number of bidders/buyers and their willingness to bid and buy. Less fear of retaliation means less fear for sloppy buying habits. Besides, buyers are used to online shopping in this day and age and as such are beginning to expect the same types of services as they would expect from any online vendor. Since eBay doesn't need to worry about offering those services, they are effectively increasing the buying base without adding any cost to their business. In addition, they are reducing insertion fees (while raising final value fees! (something I think you all would have more beef with than the seller feedback issue). So, not only are they increasing the number of buyers coming into the store, they are increasing the amount of product available. And when that product sells, they make more money off of it! How is this not a good business idea for them?
2. Note the major changes on the seller's side of the house. These are designed to consolidate and prioritize selling to high volume vendors rather than more infrequent ones. They have explicitly targeted powersellers and are offerring extended services to them (including final value fee discounts) and are raising the bar for entry for them. They are also changing search algorithms to prioritize high volume dealers (those who are constantly doing business to keep up their feedback and rating status per the new time frames for rating). This means the little guy won't have the same chance to sell a coin as the big guy. The big guy will get priority hits against their auctions. From a business perspective, they are basically consolidating their distribution centers (read powersellers) for a more dependable and stable source of income. And while they're taking away the neg and neutral feedback options for sellers, they offering powersellers far more protection against unpaying buyers and automatic chargebacks. For the little guy...no such thing. Think hard about this, what does eBay care how many little sellers there are. Since they are raising final value fees, they are only concerned with volume, not cross-sectional diversity. Again, how is this not a good business idea for them?
With the prevalence of sniping programs, and the tendency to not bid up an item, but rather to wait to the last minute to enter a bid among buyers, how, I ask you all, is this not becoming more like a storefront rather than an auction house? Why keep the auction format you might ask? Because people have all sorts of emotional weather surronding auctions. The sense of scoring a rip, of competition, of searching for treasure, these are powerful motivations for many buyers. I would expect that many of us who have listed items as either BIN or in eBay stores have watched the same items sell for equal or greater values when in the bidding format.
We should all beware of not the inability to neg a buyer, but of being pushed out of, for many of us, our largest selling venue.
<< <i>they are increasing the amount of product available. >>
I disagree....in the long term anyway. People will list more in the short term because of the lower listing fees, but soon - and it will be very soon - when sellers realize they are paying more on the backend AND giving the buyer 100% of the power to do whatever the heck he wants, sellers will leave eBay. When sellers leave, bidders will leave because quality product won't be there. This is why eBay isn't following a good long term business model. I would predict profits will fall quite a bit in 2009.
<< <i>
<< <i>they are increasing the amount of product available. >>
I disagree....in the long term anyway. People will list more in the short term because of the lower listing fees, but soon - and it will be very soon - when sellers realize they are paying more on the backend AND giving the buyer 100% of the power to do whatever the heck he wants, sellers will leave eBay. When sellers leave, bidders will leave because quality product won't be there. This is why eBay isn't following a good long term business model. I would predict profits will fall quite a bit in 2009. >>
I was speaking as the devil's advocate here. I actually agree with you here, but I wonder if time will prove us correct or not. eBay must be banking on the fact that they have no competition. Where are all of these sellers going to go? Where will we go? Are the fees less on teletrade or heritage? Not at all.
I turned down Powerseller status mainly because I list when I want to, not because I feel compelled to list to hold my Powerseller status.
eBay grew to what it is because it was a great venue for the everyday Joe to sell stuff. Now that they're a behemoth, sellers like me seem to be a waste of their time.
Consumers want the thrill of treasure hunting on Ebay with the safety of shopping on amazon.com or some other storefront site.
Ebay will continue to have the illusion of being an auction site (and they actively market themselves as such), but the good old days of Ebay are long gone, and the wide open auction days are over.
What would help is if Ebay had a time limit within which payment has to be received. To successfully convert to an 'auction-storefront' format, they are going to have to make payment due at the end of the auction. If you want something from an online store, you have to pay for it first. This will drive sellers away from accepting checks and money orders, which significantly delay the completion of a transaction, and carry additional risks of fraud. This move will push more and more business to Paypal, which further increases Ebay's bottom line.
Set yourself up a merchant account to start taking your own credit card payments.
I guess the bottom line is that selling on Ebay means doing business. And the First Rule of Business? The Customer is ALWAYS Right!
<< <i>Where will we go? Are the fees less on teletrade or heritage? Not at all. >>
This is true. Thankfully, I'm more of a small time collector...certainly not a dealer. I sell just a few coins a month on eBay. I can use the BST quite successfully. I think the BST will see quite an increase in items due to eBay's new policies. Will the BST ever have an auction venue? Probably not and a few years down the road it could have all the same problems eBay does. There's no easy answer I guess. Maybe eBay is banking on the fact that they have very little, if any, competition....of course, that competition could come at any time
<< <i>
<< <i>Where will we go? Are the fees less on teletrade or heritage? Not at all. >>
This is true. Thankfully, I'm more of a small time collector...certainly not a dealer. I sell just a few coins a month on eBay. I can use the BST quite successfully. I think the BST will see quite an increase in items due to eBay's new policies. >>
For now, this is the attitude eBay can (probably correctly) bank on -- they'll assume that sellers have no real alternatives, so they'll bend over and take it.
I think they may overestimate the number of times they can work this golden goose without killing it, though. I used the BST extensively when I sold my type set here last year, and this certainly makes it much more likely that BST will be my first choice again in the future -- especially since I sold something like 30 coins in 20 transactions on BST and every sale went off cleanly, flawlessly and without a hitch.
I really don't believe it's a case of the sky is falling - except for some of the sleaze bags. Those sellers that automatically leave negs or neutral when they get one won't be able to do that anymore.
I for one like the new rule. I have posted this before, but have a situation right now where I should leave a seller a negative for not delivering a coin. I'm positive if I neg him he will respond with a neg. I used the BIN and paid instantly - three days later the seller says he can't find the coin and thinks he might have sold it. Looking at his feed back it's not the first time he's done this.
He then had the gall to file an unpaid item dispute saying we had agreed to cancel the transaction. If I agreed he would get his listing fees back. I did not agree that we canceled the transaction - I think it's seller non-performance just like a non-paying buyer.
He refunded my money, but he should still get a negative which means I will get an undeserved negative.
I DO NOT care what other buyers feedback is, I am not buying from them. I only want to know how a seller treats people. The VERY few deserved negatives on buyers by sellers do not make up for the fact that buyers do not leave deserved negative or neutral feedback on sellers for fear of retalitory feedback. If you are a seller and cannot handle a couple of bad transactions from sellers that you would rather not do business with, you should think about quitting your business and getting into another industry.
BRAVO Ebay!
What an unmitigated mess.
1/2 Cents
U.S. Revenue Stamps
<< <i>Given all the complaints and rage on this thread, I bet most, if not all of you will still sell on ebay after the new FB system kicks in. >>
I for one, DID respond to ebay with my feelings, I am sure several others also did. You are correct, that I will still sell on ebay, but only until it becomes a negative cash flow issue. I do not make money on ebay, I sell my extra coins there.
I also charge $1.00 shipping on most things, and went through a patch where somehow it seemed buyers got wind of me not using delivery confirmation, took advantage of my shipping breaks to them (I can ship 2-3 coins for that same dollar, and give buyers a break), but got a RASH of "I didn't receive my items" it seemed like all in a row. It WASN'T the USPS. It was what we who are negative about this change fear.
Buyers on ebay are bargain hunters, and a few are outright theives and con artists. I made everyone who didn't recieve their products right, then changed my listings and how I ship (still through the PO but with del conf where I thought I should use it). No more "I didn't get my items". Would you pay top dollar for someone with 95% feedback? 97%? 90%? 85%? If your item is damaged in the mail, or lost in the mail, and you are a buyer, why go through contacting me to fix it if you can just NEG me and file a Never Received or Not Recieved as promised dispute? So at what point will the bad buyers ruin my seller rating enough that it is not worth it for me to sell there anymore?
We as sellers just know what is coming, and the only thing I have read through these comments today that makes sense is that PAYPAL may be the only way to accept payments through ebay anymore, and EVERYTHING ebay is doing is to increase their TAKE on sales.
<< <i>Excellent news! I have been an advocate for this for a long time! Sellers should not be able to leave any feedback, good or bad for a buyer. All allowing that does is to promote feedback extortion and skewed feedback numbers for the people that need to have feedback left for them, the sellers.
I DO NOT care what other buyers feedback is, I am not buying from them. I only want to know how a seller treats people. The VERY few deserved negatives on buyers by sellers do not make up for the fact that buyers do not leave deserved negative or neutral feedback on sellers for fear of retalitory feedback. If you are a seller and cannot handle a couple of bad transactions from sellers that you would rather not do business with, you should think about quitting your business and getting into another industry.
BRAVO Ebay!
Geez, that was about as stupid a thing I’ve heard other than the stupid crap Ron Paul spews. Sellers want to know because they don't want to sell to dead beats, period. In case you haven’t noticed there are a lot of scam artists on eBay and they are both sellers and BUYERS! Maybe you aren't a seller so you don't care. I have yet to leave a single negative for a buyer but I certainly want to be able to if they are unfair and at times many were but I was always able to work it out or I just don’t leave any feedback.
What makes you think that this makes any sense? "If you are a seller and cannot handle a couple of bad transactions from sellers that you would rather not do business with, you should think about quitting your business and getting into another industry".
Chill out. If sellers leave eBay then what will the buyers buy?
Starting in February, PayPal will dramatically improve seller protection for PowerSellers. Currently, PowerSellers are already protected against unauthorized and non-receipt claims and chargebacks. With expanded seller protection:
PayPal will no longer require that PowerSellers ship to confirmed addresses for items sold on eBay. Every address in the PayPal system will be considered a confirmed address for PowerSellers.
For PowerSellers there will no longer be an annual $5,000 limit on seller protection...you'll have unlimited protection coverage.
Also starting in February – seller protection will be extended to cover transactions with buyers in many markets around the world (instead of only to US, Canada and the UK). Now PowerSellers can sell with confidence to a much larger group of buyers.
<< <i>Another thought for those of you partial to conspiracies- maybe the feedback policy is being changed this way because eBay figures that outrage over it will draw attention away from the fee increases...
Bingo!!
- Jim
<< <i>"In addition, when buyers receive negative Feedback, they reduce their activity in the marketplace, which in-turn harms all sellers." >>
Not to mention that "it hurts our eBay profits", right?
I guess it hasn't dawned on them that their profits will be cut drastically because of much fewer items being listed by sellers due to this new unfair "feedback" policy change?
- Jim
"ebay is not for everyone"... MegWhitman
I say : "eBay is not for EVERYTHING".... especially things in a Whitman.
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
<< <i>Starting in February, PayPal will dramatically improve seller protection for PowerSellers. Currently, PowerSellers are already protected against unauthorized and non-receipt claims and chargebacks. With expanded seller protection:
PayPal will no longer require that PowerSellers ship to confirmed addresses for items sold on eBay. Every address in the PayPal system will be considered a confirmed address for PowerSellers.
For PowerSellers there will no longer be an annual $5,000 limit on seller protection...you'll have unlimited protection coverage. >>
Sounds nice, but in reality it's a load of crap. I was talking to a Powerseller today, somebody who has perfect feedback across thousands of transactions and does about a million dollars a year, and he just got hosed out of $1300 by PayPal when the buyer filed a chargeback. Why? Because even though he followed all the rules - shipped to the confirmed address, used signature confirmation, etc - the name of the person who signed for the item was different than the name on the PayPal account.
Russ, NCNE
<< <i>
<< <i>Starting in February, PayPal will dramatically improve seller protection for PowerSellers. Currently, PowerSellers are already protected against unauthorized and non-receipt claims and chargebacks. With expanded seller protection:
PayPal will no longer require that PowerSellers ship to confirmed addresses for items sold on eBay. Every address in the PayPal system will be considered a confirmed address for PowerSellers.
For PowerSellers there will no longer be an annual $5,000 limit on seller protection...you'll have unlimited protection coverage. >>
Sounds nice, but in reality it's a load of crap. I was talking to a Powerseller today, somebody who has perfect feedback across thousands of transactions and does about a million dollars a year, and he just got hosed out of $1300 by PayPal when the buyer filed a chargeback. Why? Because even though he followed all the rules - shipped to the confirmed address, used signature confirmation, etc - the name of the person who signed for the item was different than the name on the PayPal account.
Russ, NCNE >>
Russ what is the crap they're talking about "preventing auto chargebacks." I've heard this type of thing where the seller gets screwed many times on this forum because of technicalities.
<< <i>Power Sellers need to be calling their managers today.
We could use a rating system for buyers too, just as they rate sellers.
I saw one suggestion of rating how long it took to pay. That could be broken down to:
Within 24 hours
1-3 days
4-7 days
7-10 days
More than 10 days
How about communication, just as sellers are rated... it should be a 2-way street.
Any other ideas on what ratings buyers could be given? >>
payment speed and communication aboslutely should be available to sellers....why should the seller have to deal with the deadbeat?
next eBay will remove the "bocked bidder's list"
WHOSE HAND IS e'bay BITING here?
<< <i>Fact of the matter is, we all are thinking about this change for 2 hours at most. eBay execs spent days and weeks thinking about these changes. I'm sure the odds are that this will benefit eBay's bottom line. Who cares about buyers? Who gives a hoot about sellers? It's all about the shareholders! >>
The question is, are we talking about short-term shareholders or long-term shareholders? I have little doubt that a little revenue goose will benefit short-term shareholders. But I'm not convinced long-term shareholders are best served with this.
Then again, that's a long-standing issue I've had with Wall Street and public companies -- too much emphasis on the next couple of quarters and not enough emphasis on the next 5, 10 or 20 years.
<< <i> And the First Rule of Business? The Customer is ALWAYS Right! >>
That was generally accepted by businesses when I was growing up (decades ago) but try explaining that principle to local supermarket cashiers, etc. nowadays. Instead of a "thank you", you get "here's your change". After getting home and noticing that they overcharged you $2.50 for an item and wasting your time and gas taking it back to the store with receipt in hand, instead of an apology they usually give you an irritated look as if it was all YOUR fault.
- Jim
Steve