Realone, you are wrong brother. The 1909 mattes (VDB and non-VDB) run the gamuts from R-6.0 (451-500) to R-9.5 (10-12). Conditionally some of these coins are unique. These coins are rare. Go to any major coin show and look for MPLs. I've done it and they are not in abundance. I spoke with a local dealer frend of mine who has been in the business for four decades and he told me that he cannot remember one time in all those years that he saw an MPL at a local show.
<< <i>These are not R-7 coins but they are selling as if they were. >>
I disagree. These are (arguably) about R-4 coins (using the Sheldon Scale). I think they have the illusion of going for R-7 money because this is the most popular series of American coinage for collectors. The extremely high demand for the entire series distorts prices for even the most common coins. Take the 1909-S VDB. Definitely an R-1 coin but the high demand for the piece pushes the price up and up. The regular 1909 VDB in low grades is dirt, dirt common and should no way be a $10-15 coin. Truly demand distorts the prices.
Now, take that demand and push it into a segment of the series that has long gone over looked, and the recent push in prices for MPLs seems long overdue and not unreasonable at all.
i know rarity adds alot to a coin, but sheer avalibility plays an even bigger factor sometimes. like now with these coins. I have looked at Baltimore the last three shows,(one of the few i can get to), and everytime i asked for a matte, i was looked at like i had a butt growing off my head or something. and thats when they were under a grand for most of them. at the same time the 09svdb is the big known key, but at the shows i found maybe 10-015 gem red pieces. i know we can argue over actual rarity, but how many really sit in the hands of a collector, raw? if 2000 people collect lincolns and want a full set, well there just isnt enough.
ill tell ya what, this is a very informative thread. one of the best for this series yet, i think.
Thank you for the scale, RealOne. I edited my above post because I didn't have population numbers and mistakingly guessed an S-VDB might be an R-2 coin, which it is not.
<< <i>Realone, you are wrong brother. The 1909 mattes (VDB and non-VDB) run the gamuts from R-6.0 (451-500) to R-9.5 (10-12). Conditionally some of these coins are unique. These coins are rare. Go to any major coin show and look for MPLs. I've done it and they are not in abundance. I spoke with a local dealer frend of mine who has been in the business for four decades and he told me that he cannot remember one time in all those years that he saw an MPL at a local show. >>
Curly, I hear that. I go to mostly small local shows, but I always ask a bunch of dealers if they have any MPLs and a lot of them say "Kid, I've never even seen one." Of course, I whip out a few of mine and let them drool.
As with any series, condition rarity is where it's at. As an example, PCGS has had a total of 8 1909 BN submissions. Using the Coinfacts Rarity Scale that's a 9.6. Remember that's submissions, not the actual pop. The big secret in TPGs is that the count is skewed. I've seen tags that haven't been turned in and that makes the count higher than it actually is.
Let's look at the 1916-D Mercury dime. In MS67 FB the PCGS guide has it valued at $140,000. There is a population in this grade of 6. 1909 VDB Matte Proof, let's see, hmm, all I see is 2 graded 67RD. Less than 90 VDB's have been certified by PCGS, while a mere 3,670 1916-D Mercury dimes have been certified.
I have never had the 1909 VDB MPL in hand and don't know if it is just me but the crescent to the right of UNUM is extremely hard to see. Is it more visible on the actual coin?
BTW that is a gorgeous set curly, thanx for the link.
My 9 year old son Mike just started collecting Lincoln cents. At the recent Tucson show I let him sell a SOL 3-piece set and keep the profit. With $40 in his hand he bought up some terrific Lincolns. All choice AU58 and uncleaned. 1909, 1909 VDB, 1917-S, 1919-D, 1920-S,1926, 1926-S (VF) and some later dates. He's a tough negotiator - Any dealer selling to this cute 9-year old carefully choosing great coins to buy would naturally give huge breaks, and they did.
I brought home an album for him and he put them in and tonight we dumped out the coin jar (which was salted with AU/BU cents from the 1960's - any earlier and he would have known they were planted).
He is now avidly reading the new Whitman Lincoln cent book, By Dave Bowers. (he's not impressed when I tell him I'm friends with the author and the guy who wrote the forward, let alone the guy who has the top set of all time!)
So tonight he asks me "daddy, what's a Matt-E". I say it's pronounced "Mat", and tell him all about them. "Cool!" he said. Where can I get one? I said, you remember Brian, don't you. He has real nice ones! "Cool!"
Rick, you have just created a monster. they are addicting, and it sounds like he has a great eye. better watch your wallet at shows. he may need to borrow some green for a matte. great story btw.
<< <i>Ok, let’s cut to the quick here folks. If any body is promoting MPL’s, its ME! A while back when I was trying to find these coins, I found it darn near impossible and frustrating to locate them. As the Boards began to talk more about the MPL’s I came up with the idea of assisting other collectors by making a weekly list and posting it in the Registry Forum. My first list included a disclaimer that I was not taking any payola nor was I promoting one dealer over another. In fact, I was a bit hesitant because the list did allow someone to comparison shop for a similar coin by seeing what everyone was asking for a similar coin and grade. I was also concerned that the narrow minded would get ticked thinking that any MPL they “found” was “theirs” and that I was screwing up their bidding/buying opportunities. I have to mention the first week was poofed by the moderators for a short period and I thought it was because we were promoting other TPG coins. But it returned within hours. Week after week I am thanked for putting the list together and have yet to have but one single person tell me they thought it was not a good idea. Ironically this week BRWC does not even have a coin for sale. Was it because of the list? Nope, it was because he has a much larger business than just some funky list posted on a forum.
Three months later I still look forward to “promoting” the list and making a commentary of the MPL market. I think there is even a small fan club waiting each week for the List to be posted. I feel it provides a real service to the members here and wish other coins list would get started to help all fellow collectors find what they are looking for.
WS >>
Watersport I think what you are doing is an admiral endeavor and you should be commended for it. I wasn't necessarily directing my comments at any one indivdual. The OP question was why are they so hot and some of it is due to promoting them, which I don't find to be out of line but none the less it is happening. IHC's and Lincolns are by far my favorite coin series and the photos of the MPL's that are posted are remarkable to gaze at. I look forward to seeing them. We all make decisions on how much we want to spend on a coin based upon varied circumstances and one of my beliefs is to be very cautious in purchasing a hobby item in an up market. If you can't take a financial hit in the shins be careful or if your ego like mine requires you buy something at a reasonable or bargain price then now its maybe not the time. Of course history shows I could be wrong.
IrishMike, I may have jumped the gun myself by misunderstanding the thread, but I am a promoter of the Mattes just the same. I, think any Lincoln collector should have at least one example.
This week I made a prediction that despite the horrific economic mess, I think MPL’s will be a safe buy since 2009 should have a bigger impact on their demand. But I guess we will just have to wait a couple of years to find out.
WS
Proud recipient of the coveted PCGS Forum "You Suck" Award Thursday July 19, 2007 11:33 PM and December 30th, 2011 at 8:50 PM.
This thread seems like a good place to republish my November 6th, 2007 statistics on Matte proof Lincoln cents. Since then and thru today exactly 15 more Matte proof Lincoln cents have been slabbed by PCGS & NGC combined. (PCGS + 17, NGC - 2)
With the current interest on MPL's, I thought you might like an update on third party grading services population numbers. PCGS & NGC numbers are as of today 11/06/07 and ANACS numbers are as of 9/17/07 although a brief review of their numbers today shows no change.
So, in about three and one half years, the three grading services added 712 MPL's. Obviously, some were resubmissions. Only 17 of the 1909VDB Matte proofs were added, 13 by PCGS and 4 by NGC. This 3 1/2 year period occurred during a very strong coin market. The fact that so few MPL's were slabbed by the major TPG's attests to the scarcity of these coins.
The answer is simple. One of the elements you need for a coin promotion is to have enough in stock to market them. The Matte Proof Lincolns are just scarce enough to generate interest, but they are common enough to have something to sell.
No big dealer would ever bother to promote early half dimes because there are not enough of them to keep a marketing campaign going.
Also if you are doing a Proof type set like the one the NGC registry his, you need a Matte Proof Lincoln cent. I bought my 1913 to go with my Buffalo nickels, and maybe some day I'll add the silver coins to the set. But that will take a while.
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
Tough to say exactly what is producing the mania and rising prices. I see a little of all the arguments at work. I see promotion, I see scarcity (not rarity), I see the registry (in a big way), all at work to produce the current escalation. Will it last? Who knows? I do remember around 2000-2001 when MS Lincolns took off. At the time, Stewart said it was all Gerry's fault. In some ways, it was. Tom Mershon and Gerry produced demand with no apparent ceiling on price. Most thought this was crazy buying and that the prices would fall back to earth eventually. Well, I'm still waiting. So, is the same thing happening with MPLs? Probably...
I have to agree that the 8 Matte proofs )1909-1916 can be gotten from key dealers like Brian for the "right" money. Promotion is only as good as demand. The demand for these coins is there right now. If the economy goes into the furnace, then maybe the demand will dry up and the prices for these coins will go down. The 1909VDB is a DIFFERENT story. The coin is currently completely in the hands of collectors who fully understand its rarity. I'd say that 95% of those collectors want to continue holding on to their coins at this time. That leaves maybe 5% or 10 actual coins available for auction. One went at FUN for almost $35k. One is up for auction at Long Beach. When these coins come up for auction they will sell at a price that the owner wants for the coin, or they won't sell. JMHO. Steve
<< <i>"That leaves maybe 5% or 10 actual coins available for auction"
It is in many ways a 'generational' coin, that comes to market only through estates, greed or financial misfortune of the owner. >>
You may be right regarding the 09VDB, although I fail to see how greed plays in.
As regards the other 8 mattes, I would guess that most owners of these coins are more willing to sell for the "right" price. I don't think the other 8 have the same special feeling of rarity that the 09VDB has and therefore I believe much more than 5% of these other mattes that are in collectors hands can be and are traded. Steve
The 1916 MPL is extremely hard to find in any grade let alone high grades. I don't think the numbers minted reflect the quantity available on the market.
Greed comes into play when Mr. Wilson who has owned his VDB proof since 1992 finally decides the prices have risen to the level he is comfortable selling.
From those whose portraits I have seen on various auction archives, it looks like the 1916 has the sharpest most defined strike of any MPL.
think how many lincoln collectors there are. now think of that 200+ number. .how many lincoln registry set are there? 200+ is not alot. im not talking about rarity, just plain avalibility. if none are for sale, the prices will go up if people want and need them. i see no negetive promoting, just people clued in to what is hot and what they need. a complete set is not complete with out them. period.
<< <i>Greed comes into play when Mr. Wilson who has owned his VDB proof since 1992 finally decides the prices have risen to the level he is comfortable selling.
From those whose portraits I have seen on various auction archives, it looks like the 1916 has the sharpest most defined strike of any MPL. >>
David Lange (2005) notes that: "The new obverse master hub introduced this year greatly enhanced the already rich detailing of Lincoln's hair and beard, making proofs of this date perhaps the most desirable from a technical and aesthetic standpoint."
Brian Wagner Rare Coins, Specializing in PCGS graded, Shield, Liberty and Buffalo Nickels varieties.
<< <i>think how many lincoln collectors there are. now think of that 200+ number. .how many lincoln registry set are there? 200+ is not alot. im not talking about rarity, just plain avalibility. if none are for sale, the prices will go up if people want and need them. i see no negetive promoting, just people clued in to what is hot and what they need. a complete set is not complete with out them. period. >>
<< <i>think how many lincoln collectors there are. now think of that 200+ number. .how many lincoln registry set are there? 200+ is not alot. im not talking about rarity, just plain avalibility. if none are for sale, the prices will go up if people want and need them. i see no negetive promoting, just people clued in to what is hot and what they need. a complete set is not complete with out them. period. >>
Adam,
Welcome back. Steve >>
Before you people get totally carried away, most Lincoln cent collectors do not collect the Proof coins. And that comment applies in spades for the Matte Proofs.
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
really, my 09svdb grem red never gets offers, but my mattes always get big ones. i agree to some extent but if your on a registry set goal, you NEED them. Not to mention if you as a collector want a full set of all the coins, you gotta have em.
i understand all the opinions here but still think they have much more room for growth. i know ill pay for the nice ones.
I am still waiting for the first TPG graded 1917 MPL Lincoln to surface. Do not know if it will ever happen, but it is an interesting topic for discussion and for imagining all of the hub-bub that will take place if it ever does happen.
I have never seen an MPL and a B&M shop. However, with the forums, I get to see all sorts of them for free. That is a great deal, quality, rarity and its all free with the click of a mouse.
Saw the same thing happen re Bust $s about 10 years ago. Inside a short period of time, prices pretty much doubled in the grades that interested me. Ever since, they're not difficult to find, but at these price levels, I'm not interested.
"Vou invadir o Nordeste, "Seu cabra da peste, "Sou Mangueira......."
And with three full weeks before the auction and two full weeks before the reserve is posted, the subject of this thread as posted by Stewart is still awaiting an answer. Right now someone has bid $46k for this 09VDB. My question is will there be a reserve, and if so, what will it be? Stay tuned. Steve
Comments
Realone, you are wrong brother. The 1909 mattes (VDB and non-VDB) run the gamuts from R-6.0 (451-500) to R-9.5 (10-12). Conditionally some of these coins are unique. These coins are rare. Go to any major coin show and look for MPLs. I've done it and they are not in abundance. I spoke with a local dealer frend of mine who has been in the business for four decades and he told me that he cannot remember one time in all those years that he saw an MPL at a local show.
<< <i>These are not R-7 coins but they are selling as if they were. >>
I disagree. These are (arguably) about R-4 coins (using the Sheldon Scale). I think they have the illusion of going for R-7 money because this is the most popular series of American coinage for collectors. The extremely high demand for the entire series distorts prices for even the most common coins. Take the 1909-S VDB. Definitely an R-1 coin but the high demand for the piece pushes the price up and up. The regular 1909 VDB in low grades is dirt, dirt common and should no way be a $10-15 coin. Truly demand distorts the prices.
Now, take that demand and push it into a segment of the series that has long gone over looked, and the recent push in prices for MPLs seems long overdue and not unreasonable at all.
-Paul
ill tell ya what, this is a very informative thread. one of the best for this series yet, i think.
thanks everyone.
-Paul
<< <i>My logic is if a 1909 S VDB in ms 67 red will bring $150,000 and is a pop 9 coin with about 100 graded as ms 66 red.
A 1909 VDB MPL PR 66 red with a pop 6 should be worth about the same.
Thererfore I predict the 1909 VDB PR 66 red in the Heritage coin auction should bring more than $100,000
Stewart >>
I will join Stewart in his well thought out opinion of the 1909 VDB MPL cent as stated earlier in this post.
<< <i>Realone, you are wrong brother. The 1909 mattes (VDB and non-VDB) run the gamuts from R-6.0 (451-500) to R-9.5 (10-12). Conditionally some of these coins are unique. These coins are rare. Go to any major coin show and look for MPLs. I've done it and they are not in abundance. I spoke with a local dealer frend of mine who has been in the business for four decades and he told me that he cannot remember one time in all those years that he saw an MPL at a local show. >>
Curly, I hear that. I go to mostly small local shows, but I always ask a bunch of dealers if they have any MPLs and a lot of them say "Kid, I've never even seen one." Of course, I whip out a few of mine and let them drool.
-Paul
As with any series, condition rarity is where it's at. As an example, PCGS has had a total of 8 1909 BN submissions. Using the Coinfacts Rarity Scale that's a 9.6. Remember that's submissions, not the actual pop. The big secret in TPGs is that the count is skewed. I've seen tags that haven't been turned in and that makes the count higher than it actually is.
- Bob -
MPL's - Lincolns of Color
Central Valley Roosevelts
BTW that is a gorgeous set curly, thanx for the link.
John
I brought home an album for him and he put them in and tonight we dumped out the coin jar (which was salted with AU/BU cents from the 1960's - any earlier and he would have known they were planted).
He is now avidly reading the new Whitman Lincoln cent book, By Dave Bowers. (he's not impressed when I tell him I'm friends with the author and the guy who wrote the forward, let alone the guy who has the top set of all time!)
So tonight he asks me "daddy, what's a Matt-E". I say it's pronounced "Mat", and tell him all about them. "Cool!" he said. Where can I get one? I said, you remember Brian, don't you. He has real nice ones! "Cool!"
<< <i>Ok, let’s cut to the quick here folks. If any body is promoting MPL’s, its ME! A while back when I was trying to find these coins, I found it darn near impossible and frustrating to locate them. As the Boards began to talk more about the MPL’s I came up with the idea of assisting other collectors by making a weekly list and posting it in the Registry Forum. My first list included a disclaimer that I was not taking any payola nor was I promoting one dealer over another. In fact, I was a bit hesitant because the list did allow someone to comparison shop for a similar coin by seeing what everyone was asking for a similar coin and grade. I was also concerned that the narrow minded would get ticked thinking that any MPL they “found” was “theirs” and that I was screwing up their bidding/buying opportunities. I have to mention the first week was poofed by the moderators for a short period and I thought it was because we were promoting other TPG coins. But it returned within hours. Week after week I am thanked for putting the list together and have yet to have but one single person tell me they thought it was not a good idea. Ironically this week BRWC does not even have a coin for sale. Was it because of the list? Nope, it was because he has a much larger business than just some funky list posted on a forum.
Three months later I still look forward to “promoting” the list and making a commentary of the MPL market. I think there is even a small fan club waiting each week for the List to be posted. I feel it provides a real service to the members here and wish other coins list would get started to help all fellow collectors find what they are looking for.
WS >>
Watersport I think what you are doing is an admiral endeavor and you should be commended for it. I wasn't necessarily directing my comments at any one indivdual. The OP question was why are they so hot and some of it is due to promoting them, which I don't find to be out of line but none the less it is happening. IHC's and Lincolns are by far my favorite coin series and the photos of the MPL's that are posted are remarkable to gaze at. I look forward to seeing them. We all make decisions on how much we want to spend on a coin based upon varied circumstances and one of my beliefs is to be very cautious in purchasing a hobby item in an up market. If you can't take a financial hit in the shins be careful or if your ego like mine requires you buy something at a reasonable or bargain price then now its maybe not the time. Of course history shows I could be wrong.
This week I made a prediction that despite the horrific economic mess, I think MPL’s will be a safe buy since 2009 should have a bigger impact on their demand. But I guess we will just have to wait a couple of years to find out.
WS
With the current interest on MPL's, I thought you might like an update on third party grading services population numbers. PCGS & NGC numbers are as of today 11/06/07 and ANACS numbers are as of 9/17/07 although a brief review of their numbers today shows no change.
Date..........Pcgs.......Ngc........Anacs........Total.......Mintage........%
1909VDB......97.........47............23............167...........420......39.8%
1909..........390.......203............95............688.........2198......31.3%
1910..........331.......215..........119............665.........2405......27.7%
1911..........320.......167..........112............599.........1733......34.6%
1912..........324.......181..........112............617.........2145......28.8%
1913..........416.......275..........123............814.........2848......28.6%
1914..........273.......149............85............507.........1365......37.1%
1915..........220.......107............65............392.........1150......34.1%
1916..........169.........85............46............300.........1050......28.6%
TOTALS.....2540.....1429..........780..........4749.......15314......31.0%
Back on April 14, 2004 I compiled a similar listing.
1909VDB......84.........43............23............150
1909..........337.......171............93............601
1910..........279.......177..........111............567
1911..........275.......137............93............505
1912..........266.......144..........101............511
1913..........366.......227..........108............701
1914..........229.......125............74............428
1915..........189.........90............57............336
1916..........121.........73............44............238
TOTALS....2146......1187.........704..........4037
So, in about three and one half years, the three grading services added 712 MPL's. Obviously, some were resubmissions. Only 17 of the 1909VDB Matte proofs were added, 13 by PCGS and 4 by NGC. This 3 1/2 year period occurred during a very strong coin market. The fact that so few MPL's were slabbed by the major TPG's attests to the scarcity of these coins.
Steve
My Complete PROOF Lincoln Cent with Major Varieties(1909-2015)Set Registry
No big dealer would ever bother to promote early half dimes because there are not enough of them to keep a marketing campaign going.
Also if you are doing a Proof type set like the one the NGC registry his, you need a Matte Proof Lincoln cent. I bought my 1913 to go with my Buffalo nickels, and maybe some day I'll add the silver coins to the set. But that will take a while.
Tough to say exactly what is producing the mania and rising prices. I see a little of all the arguments at work. I see promotion, I see scarcity (not rarity), I see the registry (in a big way), all at work to produce the current escalation. Will it last? Who knows? I do remember around 2000-2001 when MS Lincolns took off. At the time, Stewart said it was all Gerry's fault. In some ways, it was. Tom Mershon and Gerry produced demand with no apparent ceiling on price. Most thought this was crazy buying and that the prices would fall back to earth eventually. Well, I'm still waiting. So, is the same thing happening with MPLs? Probably...
Jack
i'm just happy my lil count of um is up to 5
peace
My Complete PROOF Lincoln Cent with Major Varieties(1909-2015)Set Registry
It is in many ways a 'generational' coin, that comes to market only through estates, greed or financial misfortune of the owner.
<< <i>"That leaves maybe 5% or 10 actual coins available for auction"
It is in many ways a 'generational' coin, that comes to market only through estates, greed or financial misfortune of the owner. >>
You may be right regarding the 09VDB, although I fail to see how greed plays in.
As regards the other 8 mattes, I would guess that most owners of these coins are more willing to sell for the "right" price. I don't think the other 8 have the same special feeling of rarity that the 09VDB has and therefore I believe much more than 5% of these other mattes that are in collectors hands can be and are traded. Steve
My Complete PROOF Lincoln Cent with Major Varieties(1909-2015)Set Registry
From those whose portraits I have seen on various auction archives, it looks like the 1916 has the sharpest most defined strike of any MPL.
<< <i>Greed comes into play when Mr. Wilson who has owned his VDB proof since 1992 finally decides the prices have risen to the level he is comfortable selling.
From those whose portraits I have seen on various auction archives, it looks like the 1916 has the sharpest most defined strike of any MPL. >>
David Lange (2005) notes that: "The new obverse master hub introduced this year greatly enhanced the already rich detailing of Lincoln's hair and beard, making proofs of this date perhaps the most desirable from a technical and aesthetic standpoint."
<< <i>think how many lincoln collectors there are. now think of that 200+ number. .how many lincoln registry set are there? 200+ is not alot. im not talking about rarity, just plain avalibility. if none are for sale, the prices will go up if people want and need them. i see no negetive promoting, just people clued in to what is hot and what they need. a complete set is not complete with out them. period. >>
Adam,
Welcome back.
Steve
My Complete PROOF Lincoln Cent with Major Varieties(1909-2015)Set Registry
<< <i>
<< <i>think how many lincoln collectors there are. now think of that 200+ number. .how many lincoln registry set are there? 200+ is not alot. im not talking about rarity, just plain avalibility. if none are for sale, the prices will go up if people want and need them. i see no negetive promoting, just people clued in to what is hot and what they need. a complete set is not complete with out them. period. >>
Adam,
Welcome back.
Steve
Before you people get totally carried away, most Lincoln cent collectors do not collect the Proof coins. And that comment applies in spades for the Matte Proofs.
i understand all the opinions here but still think they have much more room for growth. i know ill pay for the nice ones.
I don't even like them
But I had to pay insane prices to complete top grade
Mint Sets for my family and my own birthday Mint Sets
It's not just Lincoln collectors IMHO--don't forget Mint Set Collectors too. The are a number of us
gobbling up examples they aren't even interested in, to complete oyjerwise top grade and/or
eye appealing other denominations in the sets---
I have never seen an MPL and a B&M shop. However, with the forums, I get to see all sorts of them for free. That is a great deal, quality, rarity and its all free with the click of a mouse.
"Seu cabra da peste,
"Sou Mangueira......."
My Complete PROOF Lincoln Cent with Major Varieties(1909-2015)Set Registry
HOT MPL