Guess the grades: two 1797 half dimes
rhedden
Posts: 6,636 ✭✭✭✭✭
Here are two 1797 H10c, the commoner "15 stars" variety, and the very rare (R6) "13 stars" variety. Both of these went to PCGS in December, and I just got the grades (or bodybags perhaps?). Guess the grade on each. And if you guess "bodybag," you are obligated to clearly state the reason for your assessment.
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Comments
VG-8 (possibly a details notation)
BTW- very nice coins
2. BB for environmental damage...if not, then VG8
An authorized PCGS dealer, and a contributor to the Red Book.
F-12 obv. looks a little grainy.
I think they both slabbed, though.Nice early half dimes.
VG08 details... Corroded/cleaned (BB).
VG-10
Nice coins, are they available?
RE the 13 stars, I'm gonna say that one was BB'd due to cleaning.,, otherwise a VG-8 coin.
'dude
VG-10 or bodybag. Can't tell.
A surprise? Both?
K
My 1866 Philly Mint Set
Ah, refreshing honesty!
Nice coins, are they available?
These are remaining in my collection for now. Just posting these to give forum members an unusual grading challenge.
15 star - Fine-12
13 star - VG-7
Slab Grades
15 Star - Fine -15
13 Star - VG sharpness, body bagged for damage and cleaning. BTW this is a very scarce variety. There are only about 50 to 60 of these known in all grades.
For a coin to go F-12 or higher, one needs to see atleast some wing detail on the reverse. That said, the 15 star reverse coin shows exceptionally clean surfaces, has F-12/F-15 obverse detail, but the reverse holds it back to the VG-8/VG-10 grade.
And for the 13 star reverse coin, I gave it a 20% chance that it could get holdered. The details on this coin are the reverse of the 15 star coin, in that the obverse has less detail than the reverse. That said, I would have expected this coin to get a F-12/F-15, but dropped down to a net grade of VG because of the contact marks.
Still some great looking coins there
That would bring rhyme to the reason.
'dude
Here's another 13 star that I picked up a couple years ago, have shown it before but ANACS gave it a grade of "fine details, holed, net Fair-2"
I just love the detail and surfaces on this tiny coin, and surprisingly, don't mind the hole much, as that's what saved the coin (probably as a charm on a bracelet) from almost certain loss or destruction to circulation.
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
NGC graded this 1797 16 star coin VF-20. My grade is "the finest Fine-12 on the planet."
NGC graded this 1796 over 5 VG-8. I agree with the grade. By the way, this is the poorest 1796 over 5 half dime that NGC has graded.
NGC body bagged this 1796 "LIHERTY" hafl dime as "damaged."
I hope these grades and pictures provide some insights for collectors.
An authorized PCGS dealer, and a contributor to the Red Book.
ah, the highest praise to a collector's ears!
All three of us have tended to give the same answer to inquiries like this: "it will be available when I've purchased a better one!"
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
I bought that coin in 1999, and I'm still buried in it. It's part of my early half dime set, which is the #2 set across the street. I may be #2 but I try harder. I've got pictures of descriptions of every piece. The guy ahead of me has no pictures and descriptions and his set is less complete than mine. I need a 1796 "LIHERTY" (Is it realy different from the "regular" die state?) and the of course the 1802.
Still posting pictures and comments does have its rewards. I won the award for best presented set a couple years ago.
An authorized PCGS dealer, and a contributor to the Red Book.
IIRC, there have been at least seven or eight offered at auction in the past year.
It seems hard to believe that if only 30 exist (the upper limit of R6) that about a quarter of the entire population would come up for sale in a single year.
It would make more sense if the population was greater than 30 (like an R5).
I would love to hear what evidence you have that the 1797 LM-4/V1 13 star half dime is an R5. I am just beginning to compile the JRCS 2008 Bust half dime census survey, and would be all ears to any evidence that there are more than thirty confirmed specimens of this die marriage. I understand your thinking about the number that have recently come to public auction, but I am duty bound to report only actual, confirmed specimens, either those actually reported in this census or at least seen by myself or others.
As the underbidder for both the William A. Harmon and the Jules Reiver specimens, I can attest to the extreme demand for nice examples. Perhaps it is just a case of historically high market prices for rare coins bringing out closely held pieces from collections.
<< <i>I would love to hear what evidence you have that the 1797 LM-4/V1 13 star half dime is an R5. I am just beginning to compile the JRCS 2008 Bust half dime census survey, and would be all ears to any evidence that there are more than thirty confirmed specimens of this die marriage. I understand your thinking about the number that have recently come to public auction, but I am duty bound to report only actual, confirmed specimens, either those actually reported in this census or at least seen by myself or others. >>
This is an issue I have had with rarity ratings. Lets say there are 29 confirmed examples of a variety. Should it be called an R-6-, or should it be assumed there are 2 examples "out there" that have not surfaced? (which would give an "estimated" rarity of R-5+)
If confirmed examples of a variety are needed to establish rarity, then half dollars 1795 o-128, 1805 O-107, 1805 O-110, 1806 O-113 (all currently R-5's), and possibly others, would be R-6, which would greatly affect their value. There are less than 30 of each that can be traced from known sources. However, if all examples were accounted for, there are probably more than 30 for each variety, except 1806 O-113, which I think is a true R-6.
Didn't wanna get me no trade
Never want to be like papa
Working for the boss every night and day
--"Happy", by the Rolling Stones (1972)
Only missed two out of two.
I have been charged by the JRCS with the responsibility of compiling a census of the Bust half dimes in the hands of member collectors. In a discussion with other Board of Directors, I asked what my limitations and responsibilities would be. I was a bit surprised at the response, which was something like "Hey, it's your census. You can do whatever you'd like". In my mind, if I were to simply apply a very subjective analysis, based upon my many years of looking at many thousands of half dimes, there would be no accurate way to assign empirical numbers to the various levels of rarity. Precedent alone would dictate that I must apply a more objective analysis, based upon hard counts of coins reported by members, and taken as a 'snapshot' at one point in time. If I were to make conjecture about additional examples that I thought "surely must exist", the accuracy would go down. And if I were to arbitrarily add additional examples that I may have seen in the past, there is no way to determine if there is redundancy in the census, as these may already be included in the reported collections.
No census survey will ever be completely 'accurate', and they should all be taken with a large grain of salt. To use Nysoto's example, if an actual count of 29 examples of a particular variety were reported, I would list that die marriage as R6-, and make a notation that it is likely to go to R5 soon. I am not clairvoyant, and do not have some secret source of information that others do not. Indeed, I rely completely on the information supplied by others. The best we can do is to work hard to encourage broad participation, report all of the examples that we have in our collections (including duplicates), and when the surveys are compiled and reported, avoid the temptation to assign too much significance to the results.
Thanks for your response. With R-4 and more common varieties, the dividing line between rarity categories is more obscure, but of less impact to price. With R-5 to R-8, it is important to use all sources such as auction records, collectors, and ebay appearances (with image printouts for documentation). I think it is also beneficial, as you mentioned, to explain when an R-7 or R-6 variety is getting close to the next lower rarity level.