"It's just bullion"...
MrEureka
Posts: 24,333 ✭✭✭✭✭
Some people bash American Eagles because "they're just bullion". True enough, but is bullion a bad thing? Is there any good reason to think less of bullion coins than other coins?
Andy Lustig
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
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Didn't wanna get me no trade
Never want to be like papa
Working for the boss every night and day
--"Happy", by the Rolling Stones (1972)
You could make the same argument about Lincoln cents. Right?
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
The name is LEE!
<< <i>Wasn't silver dimes, quarters and halves bullion coins (more or less) at one time? >>
I don't think so, but dollars were. If you read the article in the new issue of the Numismatist about the history of dollars it makes a pretty strong case they were primarily bullion.
<< <i>So long as bullion is referred to as bullion, then I don't have a problem with it. When we start to talk about "condition rarities" for bullion coins, then it gets a little silly in my opinion. It's still bullion. >>
If it's an ASE or AGE, it's still a coin.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>When we start to talk about "condition rarities" for bullion coins, then it gets a little silly in my opinion.
You could make the same argument about Lincoln cents. Right? >>
Or Morgan Dollars.
<< <i>Is there any good reason to think less of bullion coins than other coins? >>
For some reason just the thought of a truley low mintage bullion coin seems to really pisses the modern coin bashers off. They seem to want the bullion coins to only be worth bullion prices.
GAE's and SAE's are coins and bullion all at the same time.
Straight bullion would be Silver Bars, rounds, etc.
Coins would be anything that has a face value IMO. Like the SAE's have a $1 face value amount.
wes
Too many positive BST transactions with too many members to list.
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<< <i>Is there any good reason to think less of bullion coins than other coins? >>
The difference is that the bullion rounds produced by the mint today are not coins as they were never meant to be used in everyday commerce.
Are they collectable? Sure, they are. They even have numismatic value as exomania.
<< <i>
<< <i>When we start to talk about "condition rarities" for bullion coins, then it gets a little silly in my opinion.
You could make the same argument about Lincoln cents. Right? >>
Or Morgan Dollars. >>
Or Barbie Dolls, or Beanie Babies, or tea cups or any number or other things that folks seriously collect.
I think the real differentiation lies in whether you are a coin collector (in the traditional sense) versus a collector. Certainly Silver/Gold/Platinum Eagles are not coins in the generally accepted sense. They are not used in day to day transactions and you cannot go to your local bank and pick one up at say face value.
Coin Collecting for many starts as searching through pocket change to fill holes in some Whitman folder and then, for the serious OCD collectors, eventually graduates into buying rolls or bags to broaden the search. All these being purchased at face value and not "perceived" or "collector's" value. Traditional Coin Collecting is for the day-today average Joe thats watches his pocket change.
Eagles , on the other hand, must be purchased as perceived values that are based upon current market trends based in supply and demand. Definitely a different cat and definitely not a coin in the traditional sense. No more a traditional coin than the Presidential Bronze medals that the mint sells. Someone who only purchased those would not refer to them as a "coin collection" becasue its obvious that they are not coins.
Bullion is in the same league as medals in that the average Joe doesn't even know that they exist yet everybody is aware of "coins".
Just some rambling thoughts......
The name is LEE!
<< <i>
<< <i>Is there any good reason to think less of bullion coins than other coins? >>
For some reason just the thought of a truley low mintage bullion coin seems to really pisses the modern coin bashers off. They seem to want the bullion coins to only be worth bullion prices. >>
Well, of course. The thought that people could be, at low prices, collecting series that, in twenty years, are going to be almost as sought-after as older, far more expensive series...well, well, it just isn't FAIR!
<< <i>Some people bash American Eagles because "they're just bullion". True enough, but is bullion a bad thing? Is there any good reason to think less of bullion coins than other coins? >>
$labing of bullion is what deserves to get trashed
K S
Let me be the first to go on record to state that I have never found or received in daily transactions a: St. Gaudens Double Eagle, a Morgan Dollar, an Indian Cent, a Three Cent Piece, a Large Cent, a $10.00 Indian, a Peace Dollar, a Bust Half, a V-Nickel, a Half Dime, or even a Flowing Hair Silver Dollar. I did get a Morgan Dollar at the bank for face once, however.
This way of defining a "coin" by it's being used in circulation is a bit off, never mind that the authorizing body (Congress) defines AGEs, ASEs and APEs as "coins." I know - details, just minor details. But, that never makes a difference when an irrational argument is being floated.
Oh - the "condition rarity" thing? As I recall, this is a "made-up" term that came into use after TPGs got their hands on the coin market. So, who's making the rules about when this term can and cannot be used? If you must classify some coins as unworthy of the same types of considerations in terms of rarity as other coins, perhaps you don't really understand coin collecting and are relying too much on what other people have to say about your collecting.
Perhaps you've been sold a certain point of view and need a justification for the pile of money you've spent on a "condition rarity" that only rates MS-63 and you can't stand some rookie collectors oogling a coin that has nicer surfaces and a market value well over face, even though it's 100 years newer than your nicked up, baggy specimen that's only been cleaned once, but is now nicely re-toned.
Once again, I said - what's the BFD? Why is there so much condescension toward MS-69 and MS-70 Moderns? Is it because "classics" collectors simply can't appreciate a coin that approaches perfection? Or, is it because after looking at dipped and puttied coins for a certain length of time, they just can't recognize an original surface? I know this sounds like bashing, and it's basically tit for tat, as far as I'm concerned.
I knew it would happen.
<< <i> If you read the article in the new issue of the Numismatist about the history of dollars it makes a pretty strong case they were primarily bullion. >>
That is a great article. Really a nice read.
<< <i>Certainly Silver/Gold/Platinum Eagles are not coins in the generally accepted sense. They are not used in day to day transactions and you cannot go to your local bank and pick one up at say face value. >>
The same could be said for this (even in the year it was made):
Is it not a coin in the generally accepted sense?
<< <i>
<< <i>Certainly Silver/Gold/Platinum Eagles are not coins in the generally accepted sense. They are not used in day to day transactions and you cannot go to your local bank and pick one up at say face value. >>
The same could be said for this (even in the year it was made):
Is it not a coin in the generally accepted sense? >>
That is a false statement. They were used everyday where I live. (as were Silver Dollars)
<< <i>That is a false statement. They were used everyday where I live. (as were Silver Dollars) >>
You got proof coins from the bank at face value and used them in everyday business? I'm guessing not.
<< <i>Collecting bullion is like collecting sand on the beach. The only requirement is a big bucket. >>
Tell me where that beach is. I've got plenty of buckets. We'll just keep the location between ourselves. Thanks.
John Marnard Keynes, The Economic Consequences of the Peace, 1920, page 235ff
<< <i>mrpotatoheadd was waiting for that one like a hungry spider watching his web.
You know, the Proof Bank. They were all over back during the depression.
John Marnard Keynes, The Economic Consequences of the Peace, 1920, page 235ff
<< <i>mrpotatoheadd was waiting for that one like a hungry spider watching his web.
Well, it was sort of a trick question to make a point.
I guess it's just that I find it disappointing to see people get put down for the things they collect, as if their choices aren't worthy of a Real Collector. As far as bullion coinage goes, I have no interest in collecting it myself (nor am I interested in collecting Bust halves or southern gold or any number of other things), but it's still interesting to hear what the people who do collect those things have to say about them.
edited... spelling.
Let me be the first to go on record to state that I have never found or received in daily transactions a: St. Gaudens Double Eagle, a Morgan Dollar, an Indian Cent, a Three Cent Piece, a Large Cent, a $10.00 Indian, a Peace Dollar, a Bust Half, a V-Nickel, a Half Dime, or even a Flowing Hair Silver Dollar. I did get a Morgan Dollar at the bank for face once, however.
Might as well add recent Sacagawea Dollars and Kennedy Half Dollars, only obtainable from sets sold to collectors. And almost all commemorative coins.
"Collecting" implies a degree of rarity. So yes it's true, bullion is NOT worthy of a "Real Collector." If someone is just trying to turn a profit or invest, that's not collecting and totally understandable! If you "collect" something that's readily available and not rare (bullion!), that's simply called "buying a lot of gold" or "buying a lot of silver." I think it's just semantics.
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<< <i>
<< <i>Certainly Silver/Gold/Platinum Eagles are not coins in the generally accepted sense. They are not used in day to day transactions and you cannot go to your local bank and pick one up at say face value. >>
The same could be said for this (even in the year it was made):
Is it not a coin in the generally accepted sense? >>
That is a false statement. They were used everyday where I live. (as were Silver Dollars) >>
No kidding? 1936 Proof Walkers were used everyday? Maybe you shoulda snagged a few.
My icon IS my coin. It is a gem 1949 FBL Franklin.
<< <i>Certainly Silver/Gold/Platinum Eagles are not coins in the generally accepted sense. They are not used in day to day transactions and you cannot go to your local bank and pick one up at say face value.
Let me be the first to go on record to state that I have never found or received in daily transactions a: St. Gaudens Double Eagle, a Morgan Dollar, an Indian Cent, a Three Cent Piece, a Large Cent, a $10.00 Indian, a Peace Dollar, a Bust Half, a V-Nickel, a Half Dime, or even a Flowing Hair Silver Dollar. I did get a Morgan Dollar at the bank for face once, however.
This way of defining a "coin" by it's being used in circulation is a bit off, never mind that the authorizing body (Congress) defines AGEs, ASEs and APEs as "coins." I know - details, just minor details. But, that never makes a difference when an irrational argument is being floated.
Oh - the "condition rarity" thing? As I recall, this is a "made-up" term that came into use after TPGs got their hands on the coin market. So, who's making the rules about when this term can and cannot be used? If you must classify some coins as unworthy of the same types of considerations in terms of rarity as other coins, perhaps you don't really understand coin collecting and are relying too much on what other people have to say about your collecting.
Perhaps you've been sold a certain point of view and need a justification for the pile of money you've spent on a "condition rarity" that only rates MS-63 and you can't stand some rookie collectors oogling a coin that has nicer surfaces and a market value well over face, even though it's 100 years newer than your nicked up, baggy specimen that's only been cleaned once, but is now nicely re-toned.
Once again, I said - what's the BFD? Why is there so much condescension toward MS-69 and MS-70 Moderns? Is it because "classics" collectors simply can't appreciate a coin that approaches perfection? Or, is it because after looking at dipped and puttied coins for a certain length of time, they just can't recognize an original surface? I know this sounds like bashing, and it's basically tit for tat, as far as I'm concerned. >>
You may not have been able to obtain a "St. Gaudens Double Eagle, a Morgan Dollar, an Indian Cent, a Three Cent Piece, a Large Cent, a $10.00 Indian, a Peace Dollar, a Bust Half, a V-Nickel, a Half Dime, or even a Flowing Hair Silver Dollar" in a daily transaction but when those coins were circulating those that could afford them certainly did.
But, I did not state that circulation defines whether something is or is not a coin. I stated "Certainly Silver/Gold/Platinum Eagles are not coins in the generally accepted sense."
This, meaning that these are specialized items that you will not receive in change at the corner grocery or market, or local gas station and certainly not at your local bank when you cash your paycheck. In the traditional sense they are not coins but a commodity that is produced in such a manner as to make them collectible. We as coin collectors refer to them, in addition to the US Mint, as coins.
For young collectors, I can certainly understand why they are referred to as coins but for older collectors that specialize in a particular type or series of coins, I can also understand why they do not refer to them as coins.
Like I said in an earlier post: Here we go again...................
And for the Record, I like my collection of Silver Eagle (insert whatever name you want here) as well as my First Strike™ Silver Eagle (insert whatever name you want here)!
One last thing about Proofs. You should not even bring proofs into the question since these are reproductions of current circulating coinage.
Its a good thing the US Mint doesn;t sell Trading Cards. But wait! I think they do something similar for the State Quarters don't they?
Well, collectible spoons at least.
The name is LEE!
<< <i>Some people bash American Eagles because "they're just bullion". True enough, but is bullion a bad thing? Is there any good reason to think less of bullion coins than other coins? >>
Are they considered numismatic?
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
<< <i>Let me be the first to go on record to state that I have never found or received in daily transactions a: St. Gaudens Double Eagle, a Morgan Dollar, an Indian Cent, a Three Cent Piece, a Large Cent, a $10.00 Indian, a Peace Dollar, a Bust Half, a V-Nickel, a Half Dime, or even a Flowing Hair Silver Dollar. I did get a Morgan Dollar at the bank for face once, however. >>
No, you very well may not have. However, you easily could have when those particular coins were current. That is the difference. Coins are made for use in commerce. Bullion isn't. When gold, silver, and/or platinum eagles get released by the mint into general circulation then and only then will they truly become coins, ie, monitized.
Edit to add: Actually, with the exception of the gold and the FH dollar I HAVE received all of the coins you mention in circulation at one time or another--and other than the 1964 Peace dollar, no, I am not old enough to have been around when they were current.
<< <i>"Collecting" implies a degree of rarity. >>
You couldn't be more wrong. How many people are collecting state quarters? Millions?
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Repetition of ignorance is ignorance raised to the power two.
You couldn't be more wrong. How many people are collecting state quarters? Millions?
I say they're just trading circulated money for uncirculated money.
<< <i>Coins are made for use in commerce. Bullion isn't. When gold, silver, and/or platinum eagles get released by the mint into general circulation then and only then will they truly become coins, ie, monitized. >>
"Coins sold as numismatic products are monetized when the Mint's Sales and Marketing Business Unit buys the coin from the Manufacturing Business Unit at face value," [Mint spokesman Doug] Hecox says.
This rationale covers the annual Uncirculated Mint sets, clad Proof and silver Proof sets, other special collector sets, commemorative coins, Proof American Eagles and circulation-quality coins sold in bags and rolls (State quarters, Sacagawea dollars and 2002-P and 2002-D Kennedy half dollars).
When does money become money?
Bullion is bullion
Real coins minted for commerce are real coins
Simple.
And if you can't appreciate your bullion in the protective government issued holders, then pay someone to put it into another protective plastic holder, your money your option.
Edited to add......all of the above are collectible in my opinion.
<< <i>
<< <i>Coins are made for use in commerce. Bullion isn't. When gold, silver, and/or platinum eagles get released by the mint into general circulation then and only then will they truly become coins, ie, monitized. >>
"Coins sold as numismatic products are monetized when the Mint's Sales and Marketing Business Unit buys the coin from the Manufacturing Business Unit at face value," [Mint spokesman Doug] Hecox says.
This rationale covers the annual Uncirculated Mint sets, clad Proof and silver Proof sets, other special collector sets, commemorative coins, Proof American Eagles and circulation-quality coins sold in bags and rolls (State quarters, Sacagawea dollars and 2002-P and 2002-D Kennedy half dollars).
When does money become money? >>
Tell that to the Treasury Dept.'s Legal section. They specifically stated the opposite when declaring the 1933 double eagle to be contraband.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Certainly Silver/Gold/Platinum Eagles are not coins in the generally accepted sense. They are not used in day to day transactions and you cannot go to your local bank and pick one up at say face value. >>
The same could be said for this (even in the year it was made):
Is it not a coin in the generally accepted sense? >>
That is a false statement. They were used everyday where I live. (as were Silver Dollars) >>
No kidding? 1936 Proof Walkers were used everyday? Maybe you shoulda snagged a few.
Missed the "proof" part. I suspect a much greater percentage of classic proofs were circulated as common currency than any modern bullion coin.
The bottom line is who cares? If you don't like it don't buy it. If you only collect "coins" then don’t buy them, if you consider them trash then don't buy them. Who cares? I'm sure you have a great collection of whatever you focus on and more power to you. I like modern eagles and if you don't that's okay too. If you want to call them bullion then that's okay, who cares? They are worth what they are worth and trying to find some fault with them isn't going to change it.
What I like about them is this is the first time in my lifetime that you could buy a US coin that had an intrinsic metal value that allows me to make a purchase that has some guarantee in its value despite economic downturns. Is that a bad thing? If so, for who? It is amazing how many people want the US coin market to remain the same stale and crusty market it was for the past 200 years. Anything new is bad, anything with value is worse. These are the people who still have a cassette collection and think the Walkman is a little on the bleeding edge.
<< <i>Some people bash American Eagles because "they're just bullion". True enough, but is bullion a bad thing? Is there any good reason to think less of bullion coins than other coins? >>
I like my coins to have a good amount of individual character and at least a bit of history to them. I don't see these bullion coins as having either. That doesn't mean they really don't have these characteristics, just that I don't accept them as having these. They could be totally meaningful to others for countless different reasons. I don't think I can apply my idea of right and wrong to others' beliefs about stuff like this. I don't think most everyday situations are either right or wrong, they're just completely arbitrary matters of taste, little waves in an endless sea of ephemeral irrelevance. OK, there may well be absolutes for moral issues of great import, but no...not for coins and which coin is better than another.
So what I'm saying is, I think they suck. But I believe the opposite opinion is completely and equally valid, and neither is right nor wrong because coins are cute but inherently meaningless little trinkets and anyone who doesn't agree with me is smoking crack
All that said, I have a number of American Eagles in my collection, and I like the ones I have. I guess I'm full of it. I'm completely unconflicted about it, though.
All that said, I have a number of American Eagles in my collection, and I like the ones I have. I guess I'm full of it. I'm completely unconflicted about it, though.
Totally makes sense to me!
Karl's got it.
"Seu cabra da peste,
"Sou Mangueira......."
<< <i>$labing of bullion is what deserves to get trashed
Karl's got it. >>
All my "bullion" coins are slabbed. I think it makes sense to those that collect "bullion" coins.
Which set do you think was more enjoyable to "collect".
For the Silver eagles, I would go down to the local shop during the first part of the year and pick up the new issue. This set was easy, fairly cheap, a no brainer to collect.
For the Large Cents, I would spend hours going through auction catalogs to figure out characteristics of each Newcomb or Sheldon type and try to match them up on raw coins on Ebay. And then spend months and months hoping certain varieties would come up for sale.
There is no comparison to me between the two coins, but that is me. One I collected because it was easy, the other because it was enjoyable.
Everyone should collect what they like for what ever reason they come up with.
If no one out there can take these "bullion" coins and turn $1,800 in $20,000 next week, then at least begin to appreciate the challenge these coins pose to find the "perfect" bullion coins. Who out there can turn $1,800 in "bullion" into an easy $20,000 next week?
Wondercoin
<< <i>I once had to slab an entire driveway. >>
That's nothing. I've slabbed acres and acres of parking lots over the years.
I think a coin is a coin if the US mint says so. If it's legal tender, it's a coin. Or a paper bill, but that's for another forum.
A 100 ounce silver bar is bullion, an ASE is a coin. Enough!
This is just another wing of the modern bashers and they can't even come to a consensus on what a modern is. It's really getting tiresome.
John Marnard Keynes, The Economic Consequences of the Peace, 1920, page 235ff