When did MS70 come to mean absolute theoretical perfection?

MrEureka · November 30, 2007 2:24PM

Sheldon certainly considered 70 a real, attainable grade. EAC'ers still do.

In the early 70's when I started reading coin ads, dealers called coins MS 70. (Actually, they called LOTS of coins 70!)

Grading services used and still use the grade.

But some people, at some point in time, came to believe that a coin could never reach that supreme grade. How did that start?

GoldenEyeNumismatics · November 30, 2007 2:43PM

Possibly when the ANA wrote up their standards? (When was their first time doing so? 1974? Not sure)

I'm sure the slabbing companies int he '80s helped to promote this theory.

OneCent · November 30, 2007 2:45PM

When TPG's started grading coins a 70 and they became valued at 20x's that of a 69

?

CaptHenway · November 30, 2007 2:47PM

<< Sheldon certainly considered 70 a real, attainable grade. EAC'ers still do.

In the early 70's when I started reading coin ads, dealers called coins MS 70. (Actually, they called LOTS of coins 70!)

Grading services used and still use the grade.

But some people, at some point in time, came to believe that a coin could never reach that supreme grade. How did that start? >>

Back when I was the keeper of the flame at ANACS, we considered a 70 grade to be tough but attainable. I remember one Proof Saint we got in that was indeed perfect, and we certified it as a Proof-70.

However, a few months later I saw the submittor (a large firm in New England) put it in one of their auctions as a Proof-69, with no mention of the ANACS Proof-70 grade. When one of the bigwigs of the firm came out for the Summer Seminar a few months later, I asked him why they had ditched the Proof-70 certificate, and he said that they were afraid that nobody would believe the coin could be perfect, so they decided to run it as a Proof-69 instead.

TD

BECOKA · November 30, 2007 3:05PM

I don't know but it does seem silly. To me a 70 is as struck and very attainable.. Perfect is just a dream.

Doogy · November 30, 2007 3:10PM

<< Sheldon certainly considered 70 a real, attainable grade. EAC'ers still do.

In the early 70's when I started reading coin ads, dealers called coins MS 70. (Actually, they called LOTS of coins 70!)

Grading services used and still use the grade.

But some people, at some point in time, came to believe that a coin could never reach that supreme grade. How did that start? >>

when the TPGs wanted to start grading bullion, and thought the "perfect" coin mystique would drive people into a froth to submit it in bulk, they latched upon this as a cash cow marketing tool. This whole 69/70 thing have been in a downward spiral ever since.

notwilight · November 30, 2007 3:18PM

CaptHenway · November 30, 2007 3:18PM

By the way, the above-mentioned incident happened circa 1979-1981.
TD

Griv · November 30, 2007 3:28PM

<< I don't know but it does seem silly. To me a 70 is as struck and very attainable.. Perfect is just a dream. >>

You wish.

JoeLewis · November 30, 2007 5:08PM

<< I don't know but it does seem silly. To me a 70 is as struck and very attainable.. Perfect is just a dream. >>

Even if "as struck" was on an inferior planchet, or with a mushy strike?

TwoSides2aCoin · November 30, 2007 10:44PM

It takes a lot of planchets to make coins. How many are blemish free before striking. How perfect are the dies/hubs ? Then the handling process to packaging and through shipping.

Less than one tenth of one percent of production is an attainable number if you asked me.

LeeG · November 30, 2007 10:58PM

Per the PCGS "Lingo" Page:

MS-70
This is for "Mint State" (the grade) and "70" (the numerical designation of that grade). A perfect coin! Even with 5X magnification there are no marks, hairlines or luster breaks in evidence. The luster is vibrant, the strike is razor-sharp, and the eye appeal is the ultimate. Note: Minor die polish and light die breaks are not considered to be defects on circulation strike coins.

I feel alot depends on your definition of "perfect". These coins can be found but I would want to see it in-hand before I pay the multiples required for them. I want to decide for myself if it's "perfect".

I currently don't own any coins grade 70. When I got into collecting I did own a 1983 Kennedy in PCGS PR70 DCAM. It was "perfect".

gecko109 · November 30, 2007 11:14PM

<< It takes a lot of planchets to make coins. How many are blemish free before striking. How perfect are the dies/hubs ? Then the handling process to packaging and through shipping.

Less than one tenth of one percent of production is an attainable number if you asked me. >>

Really? Because my PCGS pop report for 2006-W $10 platinum shows a total of 873 pieces graded, and 288 making the 70. Thats about 1/3 of the pop. Or 33%. Where did you get the one tenth of one percent figure?

MrEureka · November 30, 2007 11:21PM

Back when I was the keeper of the flame at ANACS, we considered a 70 grade to be tough but attainable. I remember one Proof Saint we got in that was indeed perfect, and we certified it as a Proof-70.

Tom - Was that the 1910 that ended up in the NERCA sale in early 1980? I was blown away by that coin at the time. Later, it graded 68 at PCGS or NGC, long before that was a reasonably attainable grade.

roadrunner · November 30, 2007 11:24PM

Perfect with a 5X glass doesn't imply one way or the other if the coin should still be perfect under increased magnification. But then tossing in minor mint made imperfections like "striations" muddies the waters further. But since PCGS stated "perfect" that's what I consider the standard to be. There was also another guide that stated "once in a while, a perfect coin is graded/sold." Sheldon also never envisioned each grading point doubling the price. And then going from 69 to 70 is often a factor a 10X to 100X.

I just don't buy gradations in a 70 grade. If it's not perfect, then it's not 70. If you can find one flaw (graze, wipe line, tic, scuff, spot, rub, etc) then it's not perfect. I also concede mint made "flaws" as not part of the equation as long as they are exceptionally minor. And it should not matter how long you search and how much magnification you use. But in my case, I would concede that I would be happy with "perfect" if allowed to search for 10-15 minutes under 16X. To date I've never seen a perfect coin even under 5X.

roadrunner

MrEureka · November 30, 2007 11:33PM

Actually, if you accept the grade of 70, and if you deny that absolute perfection is possible, then you must accept that the grade of 70 is part of the continuum of grades (and not an unattainable endpoint to the continuum), and then you have no choice but to accept that low end and high end 70's must exist, even if you can't see the difference.

CaptHenway · December 1, 2007 12:10AM

<< Back when I was the keeper of the flame at ANACS, we considered a 70 grade to be tough but attainable. I remember one Proof Saint we got in that was indeed perfect, and we certified it as a Proof-70.

Tom - Was that the 1910 that ended up in the NERCA sale in early 1980? I was blown away by that coin at the time. Later, it graded 68 at PCGS or NGC, long before that was a reasonably attainable grade. >>

Probably. A real monster coin.
And people said I graded too conservatively..........

jessewvu · December 1, 2007 12:18AM

IMO, a 70 simply means the best possible. It is a grading SCALE. If the scale didn't have bounds (low and high), the in between grades would not mean anything. So, if a 70 is the best you can get so be it. And if a 70 is the best you can get, then the coin thus must be perfect.

CaptHenway · December 1, 2007 12:42AM

<< 

<< Back when I was the keeper of the flame at ANACS, we considered a 70 grade to be tough but attainable. I remember one Proof Saint we got in that was indeed perfect, and we certified it as a Proof-70.

Tom - Was that the 1910 that ended up in the NERCA sale in early 1980? I was blown away by that coin at the time. Later, it graded 68 at PCGS or NGC, long before that was a reasonably attainable grade. >>

Probably. A real monster coin.
And people said I graded too conservatively..........

>>

Check the catalogue to see if it was listed as a Proof-69. If so, that was it.
TD

Gemineye · December 1, 2007 12:57AM

<< When did MS70 come to mean absolute theoretical perfection? >>

Grading is subjective and argumentative.There has to be a comparison in order to reach a proper conclusion.The coins today produced by the mint are indeed the best they have ever minted...Are the perfect..??...Close to it...!!!!.....Why....???
The coins at the Mint Fifty years ago were indeed the best coins produced at the Mint..Were they perfect..??...Close to it...!!!
One has to question ....are they Equal or Perfect....???.
Conclusion ..Perfection can never be achieved because of technology and time.Over time some coins might develop some harmful deposits that can damage the surface as we have seen.Improvements to coin production and processes make coins ..Appear to be better than years before.
Perfection is an ...Illusion.....!!!

roadrunner · December 1, 2007 1:06AM

I don't agree with 70 as a reachable standard, and my own years of experience have yet to find a true perfect "70" coin. But since someone else has published a "70" grade...that's their problem.
They can call it what they like...and in this case PCGS has stated it is perfection. When I eventually find a perfect coin maybe I'll change my opinion. But for now, there are no 70's in my mind regardless of that is in holders. To me, a 70 grade is another continuation of the imperfect 69 grade.

roadrunner

ricko · December 1, 2007 1:22AM

If 70 is perfection (and since that is our scale, we must accept it as such), then those who are fixated on grades in their collection have an impossible task - that of acquiring 'all' 70's. I do not subscribe to this path... yes, I like nice coins in the venue I patronize. That said, it is the collection I focus on and not the perfection of my pieces. That said, I do own one graded 70 - purchased as such. It is a beautiful coin, and I have not tried to 'second guess' the TPG. I believe the satisfaction from a collection, comes from acquiring and appreciating those coins you can obtain. Cheers, RickO

Longacre · December 1, 2007 1:26AM

Perfection is unattainable. There will always be some flaw that someone can find. It's sort of like infinity in numbers. You never get to the end, be it the last number in the universe or what we think should be a "70" grade.

Frankcoins · December 1, 2007 1:31AM

<< the coin should still be perfect under increased magnification. I just don't buy gradations in a 70 grade. If it's not perfect, then it's not 70. If you can find one flaw (graze, wipe line, tic, scuff, spot, rub, etc) then it's not perfect. >>

Even with a Scanning Electron Microscope?

When did MS70 come to mean absolute theoretical perfection?

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