<< <i>I'll bite, give me the reason back in the day to put reeded edges on coins? >>
To stop people from scraping an edge of a thousand coins and accumulating the precious metals. >>
It is called clipping and it was a real problem at one time.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Since the market has grown so much in the past ten years, I'm surprised that there hasn't been a significant increase in the number of Brick & Mortar coin shops. Can you explain this? >>
Who wants to be inside the fishbowl all day with an even greater increase in the number of dirtbags looking to target coin dealers etc. And if not us, our Wifes and other family members.
Personally I would LOVE to have a shop again but no way would I take that type of risk.....least not in South Fla. Maybe its not as risky elsewhere but look at even that poor guy in Utah.
<< <i>Arizonadesertrat - let me ask you something. Have you ever actually tried to resell to Rick?
The PhotoSeal buyers warranty is a good one, in theory. >>
Yes. I did not mean to imply that his model is necessarily the best for all dealers. He wants top dollar for coins in his inventory, and some collectors won't buy from him for that reason alone. But, I keep an eye out for his new inventory posts on his website---it's clear that he constantly brings in good coins, including plenty of buy-backs. Rick will give you an up-front opinion of the grade (posted on his website, with nice photos, and yes, nice prices) of anything he sells, unlike some dealers who are coy and will only list a price.
Is it true that some submitters to TPG companies (not singling any company out) tend to get borderline coins holdered when the average collector who sends a dozen coins a year in tends to get those borderline coins bagged?
By borderline, I am talking questionable color or altered surfaces, or coins with rim bumps/scratches.
I've never seen any evidence that any submitters get favored treatment with respect to grades and bodybags. However, the biggest submitters tend to submit coins as many times as it takes to get the desired grade, at least for coins with significant value. So when you look through their coins, it seems like they get grades you're not getting. Of course, innocent or not, the end result is the same.
I agree with Andy. Say 10% of the coins in TPG holders are overgraded, or shouldn't be in the holder in the first place. If you submit 3,000 coins, you're going to see more of these 'gifts' then if you're like me and maybe submit two coins in a year.
"Vou invadir o Nordeste, "Seu cabra da peste, "Sou Mangueira......."
How OFTEN, and maybe roadrunner can assist me on this, has Jim Sinclair been right? I have watched his Mineset Site for the past year or so. I knew nothing of him before that time.
<< <i>My question: Why is the Coin Dealer Newsletter availible to people who are not dealers? .........so why do people show up at coin shows, pull out grey sheets and expect that they should pay sheet for a coin? >>
When collectors approach dealers with coins to sell, isn't that what most dealers will do? It seems to me that you want a very unequal playing field. Dealers already have the upper hand (most of the time) regarding grade evaluation, simply because dealers see more coins than all but a few collectors. Any collector who walks into a coin shop without the most up-to-date pricing knowledge might as well wear a T-shirt that says 'Willing to Overpay for Coins.'
There will always be people who try to nickel and dime (that works for both buyers and sellers), and if the buyer's upper price limit isn't enough for a dealer, no sale is made. Big deal. However, if the coin was really nice for the grade and the customer acted this way, I would say he made a mistake. Really nice coins command nice prices, especially in this bull market. Collectors who aren't willing to ante up for PQ material will end up with collections full of ho-hum coins. The flip side of this issue is that some dealers act as though ALL of their inventory items are PQ (and price them accordingly), which is usually very unrealistic.
The business I think I understand quite well. It's many of the people I don't understand at all.
1) I don't understand why a collector with means will write a blank check for a coin which is not something like TDN, Sunnywood, or Tahoe Dale material. Ie., I'm talking about some of the people who assemble expensive registry sets in 18 to 24 months. While these coins are all in the 'right' holders, a number of them, shall I say, are underwhelming for the grade, and I'm sure top dollar was paid for them.
Why don't such people spend more time looking for the coins, say spend 3 to 5 years assembling such a set, and in the process, probably get nicer coins for the grade and pay significantly less for it?
2) I don't understand some dealers who buy nice for the grade, but not PQ type coins, and price them so high, that no one in their right mind is interested in them. After keeping them in inventory for about a year, these dealers will then try to sell them at auction, reserving them at the same price at which they had unsuccessfully tried to sell them for a year, and of course, they go unsold. At that point, they are probably quietly sold to a wholesaler -- probably at cost -- as we don't see them any longer.
Why don't such people realize that after about a year, if they want to sell coin, they need to lower its price (unless they plan on dying and being buried with the coin, which I supposed is a possibility) if they want to sell it to a collector.
Ie., I picked a coin so described for $4,000 less than one such dealer offered it to the public. I'm talking same series, date, year, mintmark, grade and holder.
3) I don't understand why an auction house (no, I will not name them) would keep a consignor's coins which did not meet reserve for nearly two months after the auction closed. During this time, they lied to the consignor when he repeatedly asked for this coins to be returned. Rather, they spent this time trying to upgrade these coins. When the consignor got ugly and as a result, got his coins back, lo and behold, they were all in new holders, and one of them did upgrade.
I don't understand why a place like this isn't shut down or heavily fined, and the individuals responsible for the above activity are not in jail.
"Vou invadir o Nordeste, "Seu cabra da peste, "Sou Mangueira......."
<< <i>How can many dealers look themselves in the mirror when they rip old widows and cripples? And no, I'm not being funny. >>
Gee, I'm a coin dealer and what you call a "cripple," so do you love me and hate me out of the same side of your mouth? TD
Numismatist. 54 year member ANA. Former ANA Senior Authenticator. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and ANA Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Also won the PNG's Robert Friedberg Award for "The Enigmatic Lincoln Cents of 1922," Available now from Whitman or Amazon.
Answer-- CDN will sell to anyone for a subscription price . Non dealers fail to read or heed the INVESTOR/ COLLECTOR NOTE:: The prices in this newsletter are from dealer to dealer transactions, you should expect to pay a premium above ASK when purchasing coins in a retail transaction .
Question--If there is little retail in the market , then where or who do dealers sell to at coin shows? It must be other dealers . It seems like tumbleweed . One week dealer A sells to dealer B to raise money . Next show, dealer B sells to dealer C to raise money . Now C needs money, and dealer A has money from sales from B , and buys from dealer C , only to sell to dealer D who sold to dealer E to raise money . Or something like that . It's tumbleweed!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!. Occasionally dealer A,B,C or M,R Y sell to retail . Then depending on who has the cash or inventory, the TUMBLEWEED cycle starts again . Hello , welcome to the world of coins!
Andy....here's a question for you.....how many self-righteous hypocrites does it take to cast the first stone???? TD
Numismatist. 54 year member ANA. Former ANA Senior Authenticator. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and ANA Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Also won the PNG's Robert Friedberg Award for "The Enigmatic Lincoln Cents of 1922," Available now from Whitman or Amazon.
<< <i>Why would a dealer second guess the grade of a coin in an accepted TPG's holder? *thus telling you it is not a msXX but a msWW(lower). Without an independent Certifying Authenticating companies word. >>
Because people (both dealers and collectors) tend to keep the nice stuff and try to get rid of the problem stuff? TD
Numismatist. 54 year member ANA. Former ANA Senior Authenticator. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and ANA Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Also won the PNG's Robert Friedberg Award for "The Enigmatic Lincoln Cents of 1922," Available now from Whitman or Amazon.
Where are the ladies? (locally- regionally- nationally)
When the U.S. Mint Director mentioned dressing Lady Liberty in Vera Wang, did 85% of collectors understand his comment?
Why are there not more YN's?
Why do so many of the people who take the time to rant and rave in their letters to the editors of CoinWorld and Numismatic News, not take the time to first inform themselves about the issues?
Why don't more people make good use of ANA resources such as the correspondence courses and library?
<< <i>Arizonadesertrat - let me ask you something. Have you ever actually tried to resell to Rick?
The PhotoSeal buyers warranty is a good one, in theory.
Yes.
Yes, what?
You've never actually tried to resell to Rick, have you.
Rick's model is a good one. In theory. >>
Yes, and I had no problems (but it wasn't a big-ticket Flyer). I have dealt with him in person in Tucson, as his office suite is only 20 min away. If you have had a problem, I would be curious to know what happened (so that something similar doesn't happen to me).
<< <i>I'll bite, give me the reason back in the day to put reeded edges on coins? >>
To stop people from scraping an edge of a thousand coins and accumulating the precious metals. >>
It is called clipping and it was a real problem at one time. >>
I have heard about this for a long time but haven't seen the market flooded with edged (mainly) gold and silver coins. Where are these thousands? In holders rattling around? On a similar topic, I remember back in the 70s those racketeer nickels (plated 1883 N/C V Liberty) were encountered much more frequently than these days. Did they all retire to Florida?
Here is another question. Nowadays, with many collectors involved in the auctions where only top collectors and dealers pretty much played in the past, and with greysheets in everyone's hands and a lot more transparnecy, not to mention the proliferation of the collector/dealer and vestpocket dealers, how and why do so many coin dealers stay in the game. The margins have to be lousy and hard to put a turkey on the table for Thanksgiving. Remember when they had the benefit of selling things at redbook or trends with a 20% or so markup?
<< <i>How can many dealers look themselves in the mirror when they rip old widows and cripples? And no, I'm not being funny. >>
Gee, I'm a coin dealer and what you call a "cripple," so do you love me and hate me out of the same side of your mouth? TD >>
No insult meant. I am "disabled" as well (in the eyes of the ADA), albeit not mentally - unless that would include occasional insensitive political incorrectness.
Also, please note the term "many". It is that small four letter word in my original sentence, three words from the beginning. I know several, perhaps many, fine coin dealers.
<< <i>Here is another question. Nowadays, with many collectors involved in the auctions where only top collectors and dealers pretty much played in the past, and with greysheets in everyone's hands and a lot more transparnecy, not to mention the proliferation of the collector/dealer and vestpocket dealers, how and why do so many coin dealers stay in the game. >>
Since enough collectors seem to expect to be able to buy at greysheet bid (or under), dealers compensate by offering less than bid when they buy.
Of course, dealers do get slammed for ripping off cripples and children when those same collectors go to sell, and can't get bid for their coins.
<< <i>WOW. Thank you for agreeing with me Jon. Especially with classic type coins, where can you buy choice original AU Bust anything for anywhere close to sheet. And the modern crap is overpriced. As a seller, I cannot get anywhere near 10% back of bid on some of this stuff, and collectors know that now. How are dealers supposed to make money if the public has access to the same information as dealers. >>
I would be surprised if dealers make money on a commodity except in volume, now a good coin is another matter.
I manage money. I earn money. I save money . I give away money. I collect money. I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
I think it's largely evolution. People hunted in groups and lived in families and clans. They owed allegiance to the tribe which cared for them when they were sick. When agriculture arose cities followed and rules and law became increasingly complex to protect individuals and society as a whole. Those who choose to live separate have always been less likely to thrive. Humans are simply a social animal.
We tend to want to please our mentors and impress the neighbors. We hate to miss out on a good thing so jump on any bandwagon so as not to be left behind. When others panic we come to believe there must be great danger and the best course of action is unreas- oned flight or a duplication of whatever others are doing. It's far easier to allow others to do our thinking than to do it ourselves. We follow leaders even as the gas chambers are fired up. Few of us can step out of our time and place and see the bigger picture. We're as likely to follow the devil as an angel for this reason. But we'd often rather be in the majority than be right.
"(whoo whoo, whoo whoo) I watched with glee While your kings and queens (whoo whoo) Fought for ten decades (whoo whoo) For the gods they made (whoo whoo)
I shouted out, (whoo whoo) "Who killed the Kennedys?" (whoo whoo) When after all (whoo whoo) It was you and me (whoo whoo)"
<< <i>WOW. Thank you for agreeing with me Jon. Especially with classic type coins, where can you buy choice original AU Bust anything for anywhere close to sheet. And the modern crap is overpriced. As a seller, I cannot get anywhere near 10% back of bid on some of this stuff, and collectors know that now. How are dealers supposed to make money if the public has access to the same information as dealers. >>
How big a spread do you have on your coins?
I manage money. I earn money. I save money . I give away money. I collect money. I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
I'm surprised as well by the tiny increase in the number of coin shops. Obviously ebay and the net are eating the dealers' lunch but I expected a substantial increase in the number of small low overhead shops catering to those with an interest in beginner coins and supplies. There are places with very high pedestrian volume that I'd have expected to be ideal for such shops.
<< <i>While the subject of grading is being discussed here-
I'd like to see more examples of submission sheets for PCGS grading. It's kinda hard for a newer collector like me to try (heh... I say TRY) to make out the submission sheet properly. I have a hard time finding the correct info for some of the lines on the PCGS form. Anyone have a more complete form posted somewhere on this forum, or on your own website, maybe?
What I'm asking for is "PCGS Submissions for Dummies", so any help is appreciated. I know I'm not the only one that needs help, too!! >>
Al, I'd be happy to help you fill it out. PM me when you get a chance, and we can go through it item by item.
Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
Apropos of the coin posse/aka caca: "The longer he spoke of his honor, the tighter I held to my purse."
<< <i>How are dealers supposed to make money if the public has access to the same information as dealers? >>
I must say this comment stopped me in my tracks, and is not likely to gain much sympathy here in the chatroom (nor should it).
IMO, dealers (or any other people working in any other profession) aren't 'supposed' to make money. In other words, it's not a birthright.
Dealers can earn money by having expertise or providing a service which is sufficiently valuable to their customers that they are willing to will pay for it.
If a dealer's business model relies entirely on them having access to the CDN (while keeping it out of the hands of the public), I don't think they really deserve to make money.
As I read through this thread it seemed like this was a whole bunch of loose threads, but looking at MrEureka's original question I can see the "common thread".
There are a lot of aspects of our hobby/business that are poorly understood by many members, especially me. I appreciate all of the questions and the offered answers by many knowledgeable posters. This is a great forum and a real education. Thanks to all.
The Golden Rule: Those with the gold make the rules.
There's no problem with anyone have a greysheet. If they expect wholesale prices you can certainly ask for their state resale #. If they don't have one, ask them to either pony up or go elsewhere.
The fact that the CDN's prices for anything but the most common of coins is generally in disarray, once again leaves the advantage to the dealers....and maybe more so than when only dealers bothered to pay for the CDN. This could be another reason why the editors don't bother to update it very often.
<< <i>There's no problem with anyone have a greysheet. If they expect wholesale prices you can certainly ask for their state resale #. If they don't have one, ask them to either pony up or go elsewhere. >>
That's a pretty rude attitude to have toward a potential customer who's just looking for a bargain, IMHO. Whenever I see a dealer belittling a customer like that, you can be sure I won't stop by his table at all.
<< <i>Why are there not more YN's? >>
Because the media is brainwashing today's youth into believing coin collecting (or any form of collecting, for that matter) is uncool and for nerds. It's a shame, because without young people's interest, the hobby would eventually die out.
There are many things I don't understand...here are a couple of them:
1) As already discussed, pricing. As a collector I feel I just don't have enough up to date info to make a informed decision or pricing offer when presented with a coin I am interested in. Sort of at the mercy of the dealer to an extent. FYI this is not a rant against dealers, just lack of pricing info for the consumer, even on widgets (although I know the price range for some of them that I have bought before).
2) I was at a show and overheard a couple of guys talking about reading about coins, well I do spend a fair amount of time reading but what I don't understand is how the heck some people get so much knowledge? Do they have a mentor of what? I read, go to coin shows, etc. but man some folks are light years ahead...plus just from reading I don't have the confidence I need to acquire really good coins...
3) Why the heck the Mint can produce such good products (look at the number of 70 Pres Spouse coins) and such poor quality products such as the milk spotted 20th Anniversary ASE sets not to mention the IMO, lack of originality in the artwork overall? Let's go back to Liberty as a primary motif please! It is the primary foundation of our country...
That is about it for now...like I mentioned, there are many things I don't understand but will continue to try to figure them out!! Have a great evening!
Because the media is brainwashing today's youth into believing coin collecting (or any form of collecting, for that matter) is uncool and for nerds. It's a shame, because without young people's interest, the hobby would eventually die out. >>
Huh... So nothin' much has changed since I was a kid, yet there are still coin collectors
BTW, I really liked CCU's post. It is interesting that this basic mentality cuts across all lines of business.
Andy, thanks for your willingness to express your expertise on these boards - 2 questions
1 - You said that you would have no problem getting into the coin business with only $5 K to your name. What would you do - type of coins to buy (values and series), how quick to turn them over, only work big shows or auctions (big, medium, small). Please answer with respect to high travel and increasing certifying costs with longer time involved. ( I met you about 5 years ago at an auction and saw you buy $60K+ in coins that was over 20% of auction gross if my memory is correct)
2 - Where do all the PCGS PR69 DCAMs from the 90's go? There are quite a few coins/series with populations over 3500. Considering that there are probably thousands more raw in as good of condition, are these traded freely by the hundreds or are there a few submitters that have warehouses full of them?
“A nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it cannot survive treason from within. An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and carries his banner openly."
Because the media is brainwashing today's youth into believing coin collecting (or any form of collecting, for that matter) is uncool and for nerds. It's a shame, because without young people's interest, the hobby would eventually die out. >>
Huh... So nothin' much has changed since I was a kid, yet there are still coin collectors
BTW, I really liked CCU's post. It is interesting that this basic mentality cuts across all lines of business. >>
I believe that it is true that coin collecting has been stigmatised by popular media, but that isn't exclusive to numismatics. Sci-Fi, comic book collecting, and computer programming have also been labled as being "dorky" by the media, yet there are people who are willing to take part in all those genres.
The hobby of comics is defintely nerdy, but at least they have famous personalities such as Angelina Jolie and Jessica Alba guest attending their largest convention of the year whereas the numismatics hobby, instead of Angelina Jolie, has the privilege of fantasizing about the likes of Q.D.B. and Don Kagin.
Follow me on Twitter @wtcgroup Authorized dealer for PCGS, PCGS Currency, NGC, NCS, PMG, CAC. Member of the PNG, ANA. Member dealer of CoinPlex and CCE/FACTS as "CH5"
You said that you would have no problem getting into the coin business with only $5 K to your name. What would you do - type of coins to buy (values and series), how quick to turn them over, only work big shows or auctions (big, medium, small). Please answer with respect to high travel and increasing certifying costs with longer time involved.
First, to be clear, I said I could do that. Someone else might need more capital, depending on his skills, experience, customer list, and business plan.
That said, I'd attend as many large and small shows and auctions as possible, and I'd buy absolutely anything that I thought I could resell for a quick profit.
I wouldn't buy anything for "retail stock", as that moves slowly. Instead, almost everything purchased with my own money would be available for immediate resale, primarily to other dealers. I'd also offer auction representation and want list services to collectors and other dealers, especially retailers, as that requires no capital.
Beyond that, I'd use "other people's money" to increase my volume. Most of this action would be in the form of joint ventures, with me finding the coins and the partners putting up the capital. This is very common practice in the industry.
As for grading costs and turnover time, I'd keep it all to a minimum. Again, almost everything purchased would get offered for immediate resale, even if undergraded. (Doesn't mean the price charged wouldn't reflect the upgrade potential.)
Edited to add that travel costs can be very modest if you make the effort to save money.
Where do all the PCGS PR69 DCAMs from the 90's go?
I have no idea, but I hope it's far, far away.
Andy Lustig
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
This is not meant as a blanket statement....there are MANY dealers that do not conduct business in this way....but I think the reason why the public has access to the greysheets(other than the money that is made on the sales) is that dealers have become obsessed with making a huge profit on every coin they sell! They pay sometimes 30% or more behind bid....then say it is a grade higher whether raw or slabbed and sell for way above ask! At the Whitman show in Atlanta last month, CDNs were on the free literature table! I think collectors are tired of being taken advantage of in this way...the bottom line is that coins are worth what someone is willing to pay for them. Period! The greysheet, redbook, coin world, internet pricing, etc...is there only to report some highs and lows!
I know a dealer who often sells below greysheet offers and who often sells below prices realized on ebay or teletrade in order to move his product. I don't know why everyone is so hard on dealers. They offer to buy and they offer to sell. So there's a spread between the two? So what?
"Poets are the unacknowledged legislators of the world." PBShelley
"All right- here's one some of you metal detector guys can answer. I have occasionally seen a coin described as looking as if "it had been in the ground awhile." How can you tell? Does that mean the surface of the coin is porous? If so, why would being "in the ground" cause this to happen to silver or gold coins? (OK, I know that's 3 questions- I'll stop now)."
I found a great many silver coins that had been in the ground. The coins would always have very fine lines going in different directions that were most obvious under magnification. Sometimes one could see areas of the coin's surface appearing brighter than other areas,without magnification. The lines are scratches imparted to the coin by its contact with abrasives in the soil as it sinks into the ground. The same thing would happen to a gold coin that has been in the ground although I never found a gold coin with my metal detector.
The measure of intelligence is the ability to change.
Albert Einstein (14 March 1879--18 April 1955)
Comments
<< <i> RTS - Do you understand the preoccupation with quality. >>
I may not.
<< <i>I'll bite, give me the reason back in the day to put reeded edges on coins? >>
To stop people from scraping an edge of a thousand coins and accumulating the precious metals.
<< <i>
<< <i>I'll bite, give me the reason back in the day to put reeded edges on coins? >>
To stop people from scraping an edge of a thousand coins and accumulating the precious metals. >>
It is called clipping and it was a real problem at one time.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Back before coins were reeded people could scrape off silver or gold from the coin and thus could make another coin if they did that to enuff coins.
ooops Perry beat me to it.
Steve
<< <i>
I'll start:
Since the market has grown so much in the past ten years, I'm surprised that there hasn't been a significant increase in the number of Brick & Mortar coin shops. Can you explain this? >>
Who wants to be inside the fishbowl all day with an even greater increase in the number of dirtbags looking to target coin dealers etc. And if not us, our Wifes and other family members.
Personally I would LOVE to have a shop again but no way would I take that type of risk.....least not in South Fla. Maybe its not as risky elsewhere but look at even that poor guy in Utah.
Society is different .
Coin's for sale/trade.
Tom Pilitowski
US Rare Coin Investments
800-624-1870
Because the people the own the CDN want the subscription dollars, of course.
Edited to say that most collectors would drop their subscriptions if the cost tripled. Is that what you want? If so, I'm glad it's not up to you.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
<< <i>Arizonadesertrat - let me ask you something. Have you ever actually tried to resell to Rick?
The PhotoSeal buyers warranty is a good one, in theory. >>
Yes. I did not mean to imply that his model is necessarily the best for all dealers. He wants top dollar for coins in his inventory, and some collectors won't buy from him for that reason alone. But, I keep an eye out for his new inventory posts on his website---it's clear that he constantly brings in good coins, including plenty of buy-backs. Rick will give you an up-front opinion of the grade (posted on his website, with nice photos, and yes, nice prices) of anything he sells, unlike some dealers who are coy and will only list a price.
tend to get borderline coins holdered when the average collector who sends a dozen coins a year
in tends to get those borderline coins bagged?
By borderline, I am talking questionable color or altered surfaces, or coins with rim bumps/scratches.
I've never seen any evidence that any submitters get favored treatment with respect to grades and bodybags. However, the biggest submitters tend to submit coins as many times as it takes to get the desired grade, at least for coins with significant value. So when you look through their coins, it seems like they get grades you're not getting. Of course, innocent or not, the end result is the same.
I agree with Andy. Say 10% of the coins in TPG holders are overgraded, or shouldn't be in the holder in the first place. If you submit 3,000 coins, you're going to see more of these 'gifts' then if you're like me and maybe submit two coins in a year.
"Seu cabra da peste,
"Sou Mangueira......."
I have watched his Mineset Site for the past year or so. I knew nothing of him before that time.
Miles
<< <i>My question: Why is the Coin Dealer Newsletter availible to people who are not dealers?
.........so why do people show up at coin shows, pull out grey sheets and expect that they should pay sheet for a coin? >>
When collectors approach dealers with coins to sell, isn't that what most dealers will do? It seems to me that you want a very unequal playing field. Dealers already have the upper hand (most of the time) regarding grade evaluation, simply because dealers see more coins than all but a few collectors. Any collector who walks into a coin shop without the most up-to-date pricing knowledge might as well wear a T-shirt that says 'Willing to Overpay for Coins.'
There will always be people who try to nickel and dime (that works for both buyers and sellers), and if the buyer's upper price limit isn't enough for a dealer, no sale is made. Big deal. However, if the coin was really nice for the grade and the customer acted this way, I would say he made a mistake. Really nice coins command nice prices, especially in this bull market. Collectors who aren't willing to ante up for PQ material will end up with collections full of ho-hum coins. The flip side of this issue is that some dealers act as though ALL of their inventory items are PQ (and price them accordingly), which is usually very unrealistic.
1) I don't understand why a collector with means will write a blank check for a coin which is not something like TDN, Sunnywood, or Tahoe Dale material. Ie., I'm talking about some of the people who assemble expensive registry sets in 18 to 24 months. While these coins are all in the 'right' holders, a number of them, shall I say, are underwhelming for the grade, and I'm sure top dollar was paid for them.
Why don't such people spend more time looking for the coins, say spend 3 to 5 years assembling such a set, and in the process, probably get nicer coins for the grade and pay significantly less for it?
2) I don't understand some dealers who buy nice for the grade, but not PQ type coins, and price them so high, that no one in their right mind is interested in them. After keeping them in inventory for about a year, these dealers will then try to sell them at auction, reserving them at the same price at which they had unsuccessfully tried to sell them for a year, and of course, they go unsold. At that point, they are probably quietly sold to a wholesaler -- probably at cost -- as we don't see them any longer.
Why don't such people realize that after about a year, if they want to sell coin, they need to lower its price (unless they plan on dying and being buried with the coin, which I supposed is a possibility) if they want to sell it to a collector.
Ie., I picked a coin so described for $4,000 less than one such dealer offered it to the public. I'm talking same series, date, year, mintmark, grade and holder.
3) I don't understand why an auction house (no, I will not name them) would keep a consignor's coins which did not meet reserve for nearly two months after the auction closed. During this time, they lied to the consignor when he repeatedly asked for this coins to be returned. Rather, they spent this time trying to upgrade these coins. When the consignor got ugly and as a result, got his coins back, lo and behold, they were all in new holders, and one of them did upgrade.
I don't understand why a place like this isn't shut down or heavily fined, and the individuals responsible for the above activity are not in jail.
"Seu cabra da peste,
"Sou Mangueira......."
<< <i>How can many dealers look themselves in the mirror when they rip old widows and cripples? And no, I'm not being funny. >>
Gee, I'm a coin dealer and what you call a "cripple," so do you love me and hate me out of the same side of your mouth?
TD
Answer-- CDN will sell to anyone for a subscription price .
Non dealers fail to read or heed the INVESTOR/
COLLECTOR NOTE:: The prices in this newsletter
are from dealer to dealer transactions, you should
expect to pay a premium above ASK when purchasing
coins in a retail transaction .
Question--If there is little retail in the market , then where or who
do dealers sell to at coin shows? It must be other dealers .
It seems like tumbleweed . One week dealer A sells to dealer B
to raise money . Next show, dealer B sells to dealer C to raise
money . Now C needs money, and dealer A has money from
sales from B , and buys from dealer C , only to sell to dealer D
who sold to dealer E to raise money . Or something like that .
It's tumbleweed!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!. Occasionally dealer A,B,C or M,R Y
sell to retail . Then depending on who has the cash or inventory,
the TUMBLEWEED cycle starts again .
Hello , welcome to the world of coins!
The PhotoSeal buyers warranty is a good one, in theory.
Yes.
Yes, what?
You've never actually tried to resell to Rick, have you.
Rick's model is a good one. In theory.
TD
One, unless they're Siamese twins.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
<< <i>Why would a dealer second guess the grade of a coin in an accepted TPG's holder?
*thus telling you it is not a msXX but a msWW(lower).
Without an independent Certifying Authenticating companies word. >>
Because people (both dealers and collectors) tend to keep the nice stuff and try to get rid of the problem stuff?
TD
Where are the ladies? (locally- regionally- nationally)
When the U.S. Mint Director mentioned dressing Lady Liberty in Vera Wang, did 85% of collectors understand his comment?
Why are there not more YN's?
Why do so many of the people who take the time to rant and rave in their letters to the editors of CoinWorld and Numismatic News, not take the time to first inform themselves about the issues?
Why don't more people make good use of ANA resources such as the correspondence courses and library?
<< <i>Arizonadesertrat - let me ask you something. Have you ever actually tried to resell to Rick?
The PhotoSeal buyers warranty is a good one, in theory.
Yes.
Yes, what?
You've never actually tried to resell to Rick, have you.
Rick's model is a good one. In theory. >>
Yes, and I had no problems (but it wasn't a big-ticket Flyer). I have dealt with him in person in Tucson, as his office suite is only 20 min away. If you have had a problem, I would be curious to know what happened (so that something similar doesn't happen to me).
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>I'll bite, give me the reason back in the day to put reeded edges on coins? >>
To stop people from scraping an edge of a thousand coins and accumulating the precious metals. >>
It is called clipping and it was a real problem at one time. >>
I have heard about this for a long time but haven't seen the market flooded with edged (mainly) gold and silver coins. Where are these thousands? In holders rattling around? On a similar topic, I remember back in the 70s those racketeer nickels (plated 1883 N/C V Liberty) were encountered much more frequently than these days. Did they all retire to Florida?
Here is another question. Nowadays, with many collectors involved in the auctions where only top collectors and dealers pretty much played in the past, and with greysheets in everyone's hands and a lot more transparnecy, not to mention the proliferation of the collector/dealer and vestpocket dealers, how and why do so many coin dealers stay in the game. The margins have to be lousy and hard to put a turkey on the table for Thanksgiving. Remember when they had the benefit of selling things at redbook or trends with a 20% or so markup?
NSDR - Life Member
SSDC - Life Member
ANA - Pay As I Go Member
<< <i>
<< <i>How can many dealers look themselves in the mirror when they rip old widows and cripples? And no, I'm not being funny. >>
Gee, I'm a coin dealer and what you call a "cripple," so do you love me and hate me out of the same side of your mouth?
TD >>
No insult meant. I am "disabled" as well (in the eyes of the ADA), albeit not mentally - unless that would include occasional insensitive political incorrectness.
Also, please note the term "many". It is that small four letter word in my original sentence, three words from the beginning. I know several, perhaps many, fine coin dealers.
Check out my current listings: https://ebay.com/sch/khunt/m.html?_ipg=200&_sop=12&_rdc=1
<< <i>Here is another question. Nowadays, with many collectors involved in the auctions where only top collectors and dealers pretty much played in the past, and with greysheets in everyone's hands and a lot more transparnecy, not to mention the proliferation of the collector/dealer and vestpocket dealers, how and why do so many coin dealers stay in the game. >>
Since enough collectors seem to expect to be able to buy at greysheet bid (or under), dealers compensate by offering less than bid when they buy.
Of course, dealers do get slammed for ripping off cripples and children when those same collectors go to sell, and can't get bid for their coins.
<< <i>My question: Why is the Coin Dealer Newsletter availible to people who are not dealers?
I honestly agree with you..... CDN should be only to real dealers not the buying public.... but in todays world information is easily obtained
however I do not see people going to supermarkets tu buy milk and showing up with the USDA Class and Producer Prices and Component Prices
nor do I see people going to the gas pumps and pulling out their copies of OPEC basket price
so why do people show up at coin shows, pull out grey sheets and expect that they should pay sheet for a coin? >>
Coins should not be compared to the price of eggs and milk.
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
<< <i>WOW. Thank you for agreeing with me Jon. Especially with classic type coins, where can you buy choice original AU Bust anything for anywhere close to sheet. And the modern crap is overpriced. As a seller, I cannot get anywhere near 10% back of bid on some of this stuff, and collectors know that now. How are dealers supposed to make money if the public has access to the same information as dealers. >>
I would be surprised if dealers make money on a commodity except in volume, now a good coin is another matter.
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
I think it's largely evolution. People hunted in groups and lived
in families and clans. They owed allegiance to the tribe which
cared for them when they were sick. When agriculture arose
cities followed and rules and law became increasingly complex
to protect individuals and society as a whole. Those who choose
to live separate have always been less likely to thrive. Humans
are simply a social animal.
We tend to want to please our mentors and impress the neighbors.
We hate to miss out on a good thing so jump on any bandwagon
so as not to be left behind. When others panic we come to believe
there must be great danger and the best course of action is unreas-
oned flight or a duplication of whatever others are doing. It's far
easier to allow others to do our thinking than to do it ourselves.
We follow leaders even as the gas chambers are fired up. Few of
us can step out of our time and place and see the bigger picture.
We're as likely to follow the devil as an angel for this reason. But
we'd often rather be in the majority than be right.
"(whoo whoo, whoo whoo)
I watched with glee
While your kings and queens (whoo whoo)
Fought for ten decades (whoo whoo)
For the gods they made (whoo whoo)
I shouted out, (whoo whoo)
"Who killed the Kennedys?" (whoo whoo)
When after all (whoo whoo)
It was you and me (whoo whoo)"
<< <i>WOW. Thank you for agreeing with me Jon. Especially with classic type coins, where can you buy choice original AU Bust anything for anywhere close to sheet. And the modern crap is overpriced. As a seller, I cannot get anywhere near 10% back of bid on some of this stuff, and collectors know that now. How are dealers supposed to make money if the public has access to the same information as dealers. >>
How big a spread do you have on your coins?
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
shops. Obviously ebay and the net are eating the dealers' lunch
but I expected a substantial increase in the number of small low
overhead shops catering to those with an interest in beginner
coins and supplies. There are places with very high pedestrian
volume that I'd have expected to be ideal for such shops.
<< <i>While the subject of grading is being discussed here-
I'd like to see more examples of submission sheets for PCGS grading. It's kinda hard for a newer collector like me to try (heh... I say TRY) to make out the submission sheet properly. I have a hard time finding the correct info for some of the lines on the PCGS form. Anyone have a more complete form posted somewhere on this forum, or on your own website, maybe?
What I'm asking for is "PCGS Submissions for Dummies", so any help is appreciated. I know I'm not the only one that needs help, too!! >>
Al, I'd be happy to help you fill it out. PM me when you get a chance, and we can go through it item by item.
Apropos of the coin posse/aka caca: "The longer he spoke of his honor, the tighter I held to my purse."
It's as easy as a phone call.
<< <i>How are dealers supposed to make money if the public has access to the same information as dealers? >>
I must say this comment stopped me in my tracks, and is not likely to gain much sympathy here in the chatroom (nor should it).
IMO, dealers (or any other people working in any other profession) aren't 'supposed' to make money. In other words, it's not a birthright.
Dealers can earn money by having expertise or providing a service which is sufficiently valuable to their customers that they are willing to will pay for it.
If a dealer's business model relies entirely on them having access to the CDN (while keeping it out of the hands of the public), I don't think they really deserve to make money.
There are a lot of aspects of our hobby/business that are poorly understood by many members, especially me. I appreciate all of the questions and the offered answers by many knowledgeable posters. This is a great forum and a real education. Thanks to all.
<< <i>Where is the best place to buy 17th century Swedish 1/6 Ore's in massive quantities? >>
Stockholm; about the year 1640.
The fact that the CDN's prices for anything but the most common of coins is generally in disarray, once again leaves the advantage to the dealers....and maybe more so than when only dealers bothered to pay for the CDN. This could be another reason why the editors don't bother to update it very often.
roadrunner
<< <i>There's no problem with anyone have a greysheet. If they expect wholesale prices you can certainly ask for their state resale #. If they don't have one, ask them to either pony up or go elsewhere. >>
That's a pretty rude attitude to have toward a potential customer who's just looking for a bargain, IMHO. Whenever I see a dealer belittling a customer like that, you can be sure I won't stop by his table at all.
<< <i>Why are there not more YN's? >>
Because the media is brainwashing today's youth into believing coin collecting (or any form of collecting, for that matter) is uncool and for nerds. It's a shame, because without young people's interest, the hobby would eventually die out.
1) As already discussed, pricing. As a collector I feel I just don't have enough up to date info to make a informed decision or pricing offer when presented with a coin I am interested in. Sort of at the mercy of the dealer to an extent. FYI this is not a rant against dealers, just lack of pricing info for the consumer, even on widgets (although I know the price range for some of them that I have bought before).
2) I was at a show and overheard a couple of guys talking about reading about coins, well I do spend a fair amount of time reading but what I don't understand is how the heck some people get so much knowledge? Do they have a mentor of what? I read, go to coin shows, etc. but man some folks are light years ahead...plus just from reading I don't have the confidence I need to acquire really good coins...
3) Why the heck the Mint can produce such good products (look at the number of 70 Pres Spouse coins) and such poor quality products such as the milk spotted 20th Anniversary ASE sets not to mention the IMO, lack of originality in the artwork overall? Let's go back to Liberty as a primary motif please! It is the primary foundation of our country...
That is about it for now...like I mentioned, there are many things I don't understand but will continue to try to figure them out!! Have a great evening!
K
<< <i>Why are there not more YN's?
Because the media is brainwashing today's youth into believing coin collecting (or any form of collecting, for that matter) is uncool and for nerds. It's a shame, because without young people's interest, the hobby would eventually die out. >>
Huh... So nothin' much has changed since I was a kid, yet there are still coin collectors
BTW, I really liked CCU's post. It is interesting that this basic mentality cuts across all lines of business.
Check out my current listings: https://ebay.com/sch/khunt/m.html?_ipg=200&_sop=12&_rdc=1
<< <i>Is there anything about our hobby or business that you truly don't understand? >>
The toning craze. So many are AT and everybody knows it, but people still want to hang on to the illusion that their toners got that way naturally.
1 - You said that you would have no problem getting into the coin business with only $5 K to your name. What would you do - type of coins to buy (values and series), how quick to turn them over, only work big shows or auctions (big, medium, small). Please answer with respect to high travel and increasing certifying costs with longer time involved. ( I met you about 5 years ago at an auction and saw you buy $60K+ in coins that was over 20% of auction gross if my memory is correct)
2 - Where do all the PCGS PR69 DCAMs from the 90's go? There are quite a few coins/series with populations over 3500. Considering that there are probably thousands more raw in as good of condition, are these traded freely by the hundreds or are there a few submitters that have warehouses full of them?
- Marcus Tullius Cicero, 106-43 BC
<< <i>
<< <i>Why are there not more YN's?
Because the media is brainwashing today's youth into believing coin collecting (or any form of collecting, for that matter) is uncool and for nerds. It's a shame, because without young people's interest, the hobby would eventually die out. >>
Huh... So nothin' much has changed since I was a kid, yet there are still coin collectors
BTW, I really liked CCU's post. It is interesting that this basic mentality cuts across all lines of business. >>
I believe that it is true that coin collecting has been stigmatised by popular media, but that isn't exclusive to numismatics. Sci-Fi, comic book collecting, and computer programming have also been labled as being "dorky" by the media, yet there are people who are willing to take part in all those genres.
The hobby of comics is defintely nerdy, but at least they have famous personalities such as Angelina Jolie and Jessica Alba guest attending their largest convention of the year whereas the numismatics hobby, instead of Angelina Jolie, has the privilege of fantasizing about the likes of Q.D.B. and Don Kagin.
Authorized dealer for PCGS, PCGS Currency, NGC, NCS, PMG, CAC. Member of the PNG, ANA. Member dealer of CoinPlex and CCE/FACTS as "CH5"
First, to be clear, I said I could do that. Someone else might need more capital, depending on his skills, experience, customer list, and business plan.
That said, I'd attend as many large and small shows and auctions as possible, and I'd buy absolutely anything that I thought I could resell for a quick profit.
I wouldn't buy anything for "retail stock", as that moves slowly. Instead, almost everything purchased with my own money would be available for immediate resale, primarily to other dealers. I'd also offer auction representation and want list services to collectors and other dealers, especially retailers, as that requires no capital.
Beyond that, I'd use "other people's money" to increase my volume. Most of this action would be in the form of joint ventures, with me finding the coins and the partners putting up the capital. This is very common practice in the industry.
As for grading costs and turnover time, I'd keep it all to a minimum. Again, almost everything purchased would get offered for immediate resale, even if undergraded. (Doesn't mean the price charged wouldn't reflect the upgrade potential.)
Edited to add that travel costs can be very modest if you make the effort to save money.
Where do all the PCGS PR69 DCAMs from the 90's go?
I have no idea, but I hope it's far, far away.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
I found a great many silver coins that had been in the ground. The coins would always have very fine lines going in different directions that were most obvious under magnification. Sometimes one could see areas of the coin's surface appearing brighter than other areas,without magnification. The lines are scratches imparted to the coin by its contact with abrasives in the soil as it sinks into the ground. The same thing would happen to a gold coin that has been in the ground although I never found a gold coin with my metal detector.
The measure of intelligence is the ability to change.
Albert Einstein (14 March 1879--18 April 1955)
<< <i>I'm surprised as well by the tiny increase in the number of coin
shops. Obviously ebay and the net are eating the dealers' lunch... >>
not to mention the US Mint.
NSDR - Life Member
SSDC - Life Member
ANA - Pay As I Go Member
Check out my current listings: https://ebay.com/sch/khunt/m.html?_ipg=200&_sop=12&_rdc=1
Check out my current listings: https://ebay.com/sch/khunt/m.html?_ipg=200&_sop=12&_rdc=1