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Paypal Chargeback Story
ipmman
Posts: 565
4 1/2 months ago I sold a piece of currency on eBay to an overseas bidder, who paid on Paypal with a credit card.
It had a 7 day unconditional guarantee. Last week, I get a registered package (along with a bunch of other overseas registered packages, like I always get), and enclosed inside is the currency piece, with a severe tear down the center, and a one sentence note that they couldn't get a hold of me, and that the note "wasn't as good as the picture". They never sent an e-mail or anything indicating a problem, and 4 1/2 months has elapsed.
By the way, they damaged it.
4 days later, I get a credit card chargback against my Paypal account. As usual, paypal can't do anything, and is at the whims of the credit card company's decision making.
Actually, they can do something, and that is to suspend the buyer as a Paypal member. I don't know if they will, but I have asked them to do so.
Also, I sent a lengthy complaint to eBay Trust and Safety, and they have actually sent me back 2 lengthy e-mails about the situation, with specifics, in other words, not form answers. I also don't know if eBay will do anything, but they do consider the buyers actions to be unacceptable.
It seems that no matter what the citcumstances, or time-frame, or auction terms, on paypal, if a buyer uses a credit card, you are ultimately at risk of a chargeback.
Is there any way to avoid this?
0
Comments
<< <i>
Is there any way to avoid this? >>
Don't sell to overseas buyers.
<< <i>
Don't sell to overseas buyers. >>
I am now limiting my items to USA/Canada/GB
They buyer was from Finland.
Free Trial
So, d'you suppose the freaky Finn just said, "I don't want this," and went *rrrippp!*, or was it damaged in shipment?
Collector since 1976. On the CU forums here since 2001.
Waited over 3 months to avoid negative feedback.
Truth is, I have no idea, and am only guessing. I never heard from him, not at all. I have no desire to contact him at this point either.
We're talking around $200.00 so it's not the end of the world.
Seller protection doesn't include Finland.
Sorry, couldn't resist.
Check out my current listings: https://ebay.com/sch/khunt/m.html?_ipg=200&_sop=12&_rdc=1
-UncleKin
It is these sort of problems created by a few buyers that make it even more difficult for me to use Paypal. Paypal in the only reasonable method I can pay anyone not located in Norway (where I live) except for direct bank transfer.
I can fully understand sellers being worried about transactions to other countries when they have experiences such as this.
1-Dammit Boy Oct 14,2003
International Coins
"A work in progress"
Wayne
eBay registered name:
Hard_ Search (buyer/bidder, a small time seller)
e-mail: wayne.whatley@gmail.com
<< <i>Don't sell to overseas buyers. >>
Same thing can happen with an unscrupulous buyer here.
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
<< <i>Yes, dump paypal and don't accept credit card payments. >>
What he said. Once something is out of your possession you have no control over what the recipient does to/with it and as for not as described its his word vs yours. You could go to the post office and get a statement from them stating when the original package was sent and received and when the return package was sent and received. Forward this to the CC company and maybe they will be sympathetic towards you. They may agree that too much time has gone by and this buyer is being unreasonable.
Ankur
PCGS Registries
Box of 20
SeaEagleCoins: 11/14/54-4/5/12. Miss you Larry!
<< <i>Purtaneer always. Unless the law has changed recently or there is a court ruling I am not familiar with, credit card companies are not supposed to automatically allow chargebacks if you purchased the item out of state or more than 100 miles from you. However rather than alienate a customer many of them just automatically allow the chargeback. >>
The problem is with the processor - PayPal. They have a nasty habit of not answering complaints.
Same thing can happen with US buyers.
WH
Short of getting the buyer to sign a copy of a list of what was sold with the last 4 digits of the credit card they used, there's not a darn thing that can be done about credit card chargebacks. It's not buyer beware, it's SELLER BEWARE.
I don't like taking CC's but if the buyer insists, I fax them a copy of the invoice with the last 4 digits of the card number asking them to sign and fax back before I can ship. According to our EPS (electronic payment system), I would be protected if I got their signiture on an itemized list of what was sold with a partial card number to show that they approved the purchase.
<< <i>Don't sell to overseas buyers.
Same thing can happen with US buyers.
WH >>
hard to tear our pennies tho ...eh wayne?
and they're cold.
I don't want nobody to shoot me in the foxhole."
Mary
Best Franklin Website
Credit cards have a vested interest in keeping the card holder happy, they are what makes them billions of dollars in profit. The card holder will prevail in the majority of cases.
If you have any size business, you should consider some sort of business insurance that will protect you from this type of problem.
I am at the age that I try to limit risk by eliminating someone who in the transaction process can control my money. Paypal has become the Pied Piper of ebay.
<< <i>Run. Run very fast. From Paypal, that is. >>
I'd agree completely. I parted ways with PayPal after just 30 days of usage in early 2006.
I had sold some coins on ebay and accepted PeePee as the payment medium.
They immediately froze my account after a bulk of the sales saying that they
had to verify my authenticity despite having my CC info and bank account #s,
began demanding original receipts for the coins I sold (early '80 s commems in 2006!),
and telling me that they would hold on to my funds for 180 days (while they collect
interest) to ensure there were no chargebacks. I never got a last name from
any of their phone staff in Nebraska, since they are not authorized to provide that
info, and their site manager, who I demanded access to didn't know what
"numismatic items" meant ! What a great business plan they have!
I completely stopped dealing with them and ebay.
You may be able to leave feedback greater than 90 days by entering the item number or User ID on the Leave Feedback page.
If this works, he maybe able to do the same.
<< <i>Don't sell to overseas buyers.
Same thing can happen with US buyers.
WH >>
You can file theft charges against someone who makes a chargeback fraudulently, but try that if they are in Romania....
Coin's for sale/trade.
Tom Pilitowski
US Rare Coin Investments
800-624-1870
<< <i>
<< <i>Run. Run very fast. From Paypal, that is. >>
I'd agree completely. I parted ways with PayPal after just 30 days of usage in early 2006.
I had sold some coins on ebay and accepted PeePee as the payment medium.
They immediately froze my account after a bulk of the sales saying that they
had to verify my authenticity despite having my CC info and bank account #s,
began demanding original receipts for the coins I sold (early '80 s commems in 2006!),
and telling me that they would hold on to my funds for 180 days (while they collect
interest) to ensure there were no chargebacks. I never got a last name from
any of their phone staff in Nebraska, since they are not authorized to provide that
info, and their site manager, who I demanded access to didn't know what
"numismatic items" meant ! What a great business plan they have!
I completely stopped dealing with them and ebay. >>
Most of us in Nebraska have no problem telling people our last name. PayPow™ runs different.
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
auction. NO RETURNS. you do not have to run an auction like an
approval service. do not use paypal.
<< <i>I got a chagreback 7 months after the sale one time. >>
Please let us all know what the heck that was about
Coin's for sale/trade.
Tom Pilitowski
US Rare Coin Investments
800-624-1870
<< <i>I'm no fan of Paypal either, but unfortunately experiences like this are part of the cost of doing business. There's really no airtight protection from unscrupulous buyers, no matter how they pay. And limiting the payment options you give your buyers will definitely limit your business to some extent. Most people will deal honestly with you, and for the few that don't, they have to choose how they live their lives. I just try to not get too pi$$ed, and move on. >>
One of the best thoughts on the subject I've seen and so true. Remember we got all those counterfeit checks and bank checks a few months ago?
With the internet, we have vastly more good people and vastly more not good people.
Coin's for sale/trade.
Tom Pilitowski
US Rare Coin Investments
800-624-1870
the coins are mailed on schedule, buyer feedback says 100% satisfaction with all the coins, and all
shipment receipts with tracking IDs are sent to them as verification. They just think that once they
are holding your money they can do whatever they please. I also find it distasteful that they up and
accuse one of nightmarish stuff without proper cause, just because their business plan calls for it.
<< <i>Don't sell to overseas buyers.
Same thing can happen with US buyers.
WH >>
Wish I thought of that
On a more serious note, if you're willing to drop Paypal if you ever have this kind of problem, do what I do - as soon as money hits your Paypal account, transfer it out and leave a zero balance. I also set up a bank account strictly for Paypal transfers, and as soon as the Paypal money hits it, I transfer it electronically to my "regular" bank account, so the Paypal account AND the bank account registered to it have zero balances.
<< <i>
<< <i>Don't sell to overseas buyers.
Same thing can happen with US buyers.
WH >>
Wish I thought of that
On a more serious note, if you're willing to drop Paypal if you ever have this kind of problem, do what I do - as soon as money hits your Paypal account, transfer it out and leave a zero balance. I also set up a bank account strictly for Paypal transfers, and as soon as the Paypal money hits it, I transfer it electronically to my "regular" bank account, so the Paypal account AND the bank account registered to it have zero balances. >>
Even without access to the funds, PayPal will put your account into negative balance and you won't be able to use PayPal again. They will also likely place your balance in the hands of a debt collector. It could also ruin your credit, I suppose. Bottom line, they will get their money no matter how you arrange your PayPal special bank account situation.
Jonathan
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Run. Run very fast. From Paypal, that is. >>
I'd agree completely. I parted ways with PayPal after just 30 days of usage in early 2006.
I had sold some coins on ebay and accepted PeePee as the payment medium.
They immediately froze my account after a bulk of the sales saying that they
had to verify my authenticity despite having my CC info and bank account #s,
began demanding original receipts for the coins I sold (early '80 s commems in 2006!),
and telling me that they would hold on to my funds for 180 days (while they collect
interest) to ensure there were no chargebacks. I never got a last name from
any of their phone staff in Nebraska, since they are not authorized to provide that
info, and their site manager, who I demanded access to didn't know what
"numismatic items" meant ! What a great business plan they have!
I completely stopped dealing with them and ebay. >>
Most of us in Nebraska have no problem telling people our last name. PayPow™ runs different. >>
Most customer service units in businesses have that same rule....not to provide last names to customers. Too many customers are irrational or irate and one can never tell when a stalker/attacker will come. I was in customer service for software, years ago, as a supervisor. I did not let my people give their last names. I listened to their calls at times. I gave my last name though, as a supervisor.
As for complaining about a service for funds not knowing what "numismatic items" are, well duh! I bet there are plenty of hobby terms, outside of coins, that you wouldn't know either. To each their own and I would not be so small-minded as to fault paypal for that.
Ebay, on the otherhand, should have people that know but not everyone would. Methinks one expects too much.
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Run. Run very fast. From Paypal, that is. >>
I'd agree completely. I parted ways with PayPal after just 30 days of usage in early 2006.
I had sold some coins on ebay and accepted PeePee as the payment medium.
They immediately froze my account after a bulk of the sales saying that they
had to verify my authenticity despite having my CC info and bank account #s,
began demanding original receipts for the coins I sold (early '80 s commems in 2006!),
and telling me that they would hold on to my funds for 180 days (while they collect
interest) to ensure there were no chargebacks. I never got a last name from
any of their phone staff in Nebraska, since they are not authorized to provide that
info, and their site manager, who I demanded access to didn't know what
"numismatic items" meant ! What a great business plan they have!
I completely stopped dealing with them and ebay. >>
Most of us in Nebraska have no problem telling people our last name. PayPow™ runs different. >>
Most customer service units in businesses have that same rule....not to provide last names to customers. Too many customers are irrational or irate and one can never tell when a stalker/attacker will come. I was in customer service for software, years ago, as a supervisor. I did not let my people give their last names. I listened to their calls at times. I gave my last name though, as a supervisor.
As for complaining about a service for funds not knowing what "numismatic items" are, well duh! I bet there are plenty of hobby terms, outside of coins, that you wouldn't know either. To each their own and I would not be so small-minded as to fault paypal for that.
Ebay, on the otherhand, should have people that know but not everyone would. Methinks one expects too much. >>
I expect a customer service person who knows MY NAME and more to give me their name. That way I have a record on who I spoke with. I think this new way of doing business stinks.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Run. Run very fast. From Paypal, that is. >>
I'd agree completely. I parted ways with PayPal after just 30 days of usage in early 2006.
I had sold some coins on ebay and accepted PeePee as the payment medium.
They immediately froze my account after a bulk of the sales saying that they
had to verify my authenticity despite having my CC info and bank account #s,
began demanding original receipts for the coins I sold (early '80 s commems in 2006!),
and telling me that they would hold on to my funds for 180 days (while they collect
interest) to ensure there were no chargebacks. I never got a last name from
any of their phone staff in Nebraska, since they are not authorized to provide that
info, and their site manager, who I demanded access to didn't know what
"numismatic items" meant ! What a great business plan they have!
I completely stopped dealing with them and ebay. >>
Most of us in Nebraska have no problem telling people our last name. PayPow™ runs different. >>
Most customer service units in businesses have that same rule....not to provide last names to customers. Too many customers are irrational or irate and one can never tell when a stalker/attacker will come. I was in customer service for software, years ago, as a supervisor. I did not let my people give their last names. I listened to their calls at times. I gave my last name though, as a supervisor.
As for complaining about a service for funds not knowing what "numismatic items" are, well duh! I bet there are plenty of hobby terms, outside of coins, that you wouldn't know either. To each their own and I would not be so small-minded as to fault paypal for that.
Ebay, on the otherhand, should have people that know but not everyone would. Methinks one expects too much. >>
I expect a customer service person who knows MY NAME and more to give me their name. That way I have a record on who I spoke with. I think this new way of doing business stinks. >>
Depending on the policies, a first name and a last initial can be used. As can a number associated to that employee: Johnboy W or Johnboy666 for example.
You may think it sucks but unless and until you have been in the support side where an irate customer is yelling and you and threatening to hunt you down (never to me but I have heard a few tapes in training, etc, and it often isn't that support person's fault as customer is already over the edge when the call starts), then you have no understanding and you really shouldn't be whining about.
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
<< <i>it often isn't that support person's fault as customer is already over the edge when the call starts) >>
it may not be that particular support person's fault, but based on my experience with customer "support", it is very likely the result of some interaction with one of the (many?) previous support persons encountered. Or it may be a result of having a half hour to stew over the issue while on hold, listening to a recording telling you how much the company appreciates your business, and won't you please wait a bit longer, because they're experiencing an unsusally heavy number of calls (didn't realize Christmas was coming again this year, did they?) and they'll get to you in the order your call was received.
Or it could have been something else entirely.
<< <i>You may think it sucks but unless and until you have been in the support side where an irate customer is yelling and you and threatening to hunt you down >>
I'd suggest that if this scenario is a recurring situation instead of just a once-in-a-blue-moon aberration, your customer service department might have a problem. And that problem is not your customers.
JMO, YMMV.
<< <i>Threatening physical harm is never acceptable, but still...
<< <i>it often isn't that support person's fault as customer is already over the edge when the call starts) >>
it may not be that particular support person's fault, but based on my experience with customer "support", it is very likely the result of some interaction with one of the (many?) previous support persons encountered. Or it may be a result of having a half hour to stew over the issue while on hold, listening to a recording telling you how much the company appreciates your business, and won't you please wait a bit longer, because they're experiencing an unsusally heavy number of calls (didn't realize Christmas was coming again this year, did they?) and they'll get to you in the order your call was received.
Or it could have been something else entirely.
<< <i>You may think it sucks but unless and until you have been in the support side where an irate customer is yelling and you and threatening to hunt you down >>
I'd suggest that if this scenario is a recurring situation instead of just a once-in-a-blue-moon aberration, your customer service department might have a problem. And that problem is not your customers.
JMO, YMMV. >>
I won't continue to derail the thread after this post....
Yes, there are instances where it is a previous call. Sometimes it is just the product. Sometimes it is the STUPID user. Doesn't matter. It is unacceptable and it is why that policy is in place for many people.
Heck....watch threads around here long enough and you will find people hunting down others, and their information, to screw with them through the internet or threaten violence in person.
There are tons of bad customer support people, don't get me wrong, and they deserve to have their butts canned from their job. However, you can do that, for many of them, if you know how to work a support call. Get their name at the start of the call. Don't be irate. They usually keep logs. If you get a first name and date/time of your call, it is usually entered. Ask for a supervisor. Get their supervisor (there is ALWAYS a supervisor around, no matter what they tell you).
Take it higher, in corporate, if you have problems (snail mail is better than email).
And, when you do support for something that sells millions, you can get more than a handful of calls for whatever reason, that are bad. Could be the product, could be the support person, and could be the customer.
I've managed out (I no longer work customer support) a couple of people who didn't do anyone any good, but then, that was part of my job and why I listened to their calls.
The way I look at it is each situation is different in some degree but it kind of looks like you want to blame support for it no matter what, huh?
PS....most of the USMint's support reps suck, imho.
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
<< <i>I expect a customer service person who knows MY NAME and more to give me their name. That way I have a record on who I spoke with. I think this new way of doing business stinks. >>
I have been given employee numbers which would serve the same purpose.
<< <i>The way I look at it is each situation is different in some degree but it kind of looks like you want to blame support for it no matter what, huh?
Hardly.
I have dealt with the customer support departments of several companies who provided excellent service. Unfortunately, they're not in the majority.
I'll say it again... if your customer service department employees receive repeated threats of physical violence, your company is doing *something* wrong- satisfied customers practically never exhibit that sort of hostility.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Run. Run very fast. From Paypal, that is. >>
I'd agree completely. I parted ways with PayPal after just 30 days of usage in early 2006.
I had sold some coins on ebay and accepted PeePee as the payment medium.
They immediately froze my account after a bulk of the sales saying that they
had to verify my authenticity despite having my CC info and bank account #s,
began demanding original receipts for the coins I sold (early '80 s commems in 2006!),
and telling me that they would hold on to my funds for 180 days (while they collect
interest) to ensure there were no chargebacks. I never got a last name from
any of their phone staff in Nebraska, since they are not authorized to provide that
info, and their site manager, who I demanded access to didn't know what
"numismatic items" meant ! What a great business plan they have!
I completely stopped dealing with them and ebay. >>
Most of us in Nebraska have no problem telling people our last name. PayPow™ runs different. >>
Most customer service units in businesses have that same rule....not to provide last names to customers. Too many customers are irrational or irate and one can never tell when a stalker/attacker will come. I was in customer service for software, years ago, as a supervisor. I did not let my people give their last names. I listened to their calls at times. I gave my last name though, as a supervisor.
As for complaining about a service for funds not knowing what "numismatic items" are, well duh! I bet there are plenty of hobby terms, outside of coins, that you wouldn't know either. To each their own and I would not be so small-minded as to fault paypal for that.
Ebay, on the otherhand, should have people that know but not everyone would. Methinks one expects too much. >>
I expect a customer service person who knows MY NAME and more to give me their name. That way I have a record on who I spoke with. I think this new way of doing business stinks. >>
Depending on the policies, a first name and a last initial can be used. As can a number associated to that employee: Johnboy W or Johnboy666 for example.
You may think it sucks but unless and until you have been in the support side where an irate customer is yelling and you and threatening to hunt you down (never to me but I have heard a few tapes in training, etc, and it often isn't that support person's fault as customer is already over the edge when the call starts), then you have no understanding and you really shouldn't be whining about. >>
I am not whining.........I am calling it, as I see it. I worked customer service for over 20 years and all my customers knew my full name. And I handled plenty of unhappy customers. If I am a CUSTOMER I should know who I am talking to.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Run. Run very fast. From Paypal, that is.[/
I am not whining.........I am calling it, as I see it. I worked customer service for over 20 years and all my customers knew my full name. And I handled plenty of unhappy customers. If I am a CUSTOMER I should know who I am talking to. >>
Absolutely agree with you, but unfortunately this is the "new world" of jerk offs who cannot/will not even give you their name. ( Remember these are the same ones who can't count without a calculator so remember who you are dealing with )
We just went thru it with our hosting company and spoke with "anthony" and "nicole", and "billy" and I finally said my business is leaving and then I got a supervisor, last name and all on the line.
Nobody should have to go thru that but that's the way it is now.
Coin's for sale/trade.
Tom Pilitowski
US Rare Coin Investments
800-624-1870
Next time I also received a three silver that the seller said was a proof 65. The coin was not a proof. It was a circulated business strike - maybe cleaned AU50. After many emails back and forth with both the seller and paypal I contacted the CC company and they reversed the charge.
The third time was when I bought my wife an expensive piece of crystal and requested full value insurance. When the package arrived the crystal was broken and there was no insurance on the package. In response to my email the seller said he was self-insured and if I shipped the item back he would return my money. I shipped it back, he signed for the package and I didn't hear from him for two weeks. I contacted the CC company and they did the charge back.
Each time I did a charge back I would get a nasty gram from paypal - something about not following their rules and they were going to cancel my account if I was a bad boy again, but I never heard anything more.