it's time for collectors and dealers to get back to numismatics.

dorkkarl · October 30, 2007 4:09AM

what joconnor said is totally worth its weight in gold (& it's own post):

I believe that it's time for collectors and dealers to get back to numismatics.

Too many people, collectors, dealers, the ANA, and now newspaper editors, have wildly overestimated their long term importance. As I've said before, the coins are important, the collectors that study them are important, nothing and no one else is really that important.

take that to the bank

K S

firstmint · October 30, 2007 4:35AM

In America today, we as a group are sorely lacking in the scholarly approach to the science of numismatics. Instead, the three "P's" (promotion, prices, and profit) are the guiding influences in today's numismatic realm.

Fortunately, there is always an underlying element of people who actually strive to become a numismatist - you know, a person who studies and collects numismatic items (study comes before collecting in this case) and their shared knowledge helps everyone.

We spend millions of dollars for (of all things) the subjective grading of coins. It's truly a shame (and IMO somewhat of a disgrace) that there is no funding available for numismatic research in this country.

The past and present research done by serious numismatists is what's really important. Without that, you wouldn't have much to go on in this particular field of endeavor.

ricko · October 30, 2007 4:59AM

Well stated FirstMint.. and Dorkkarl. Cheers, RickO

MrHalfDime · October 30, 2007 5:03AM

Unfortunately, this thread is going to drop like a rock and disappear. What you are saying makes WAY too much sense.

Very well stated, gentlemen.

keets · October 30, 2007 5:21AM

this place is a playground, not a schoolroom. we are generally here on "recess" from our scholarly studies, sort of on a Numismatic smoke-break. if you miss that, you are either dense or foolishly self-absorbed.

mirabela · October 30, 2007 5:22AM

pharmer · October 30, 2007 5:25AM

<< this place is a playground, not a schoolroom. we are generally here on "recess" from our scholarly studies, sort of on a Numismatic smoke-break. if you miss that, you are either dense or foolishly self-absorbed. >>

Exactly. Chill, dudes.

FatMan · October 30, 2007 5:28AM

<< In America today, we as a group are sorely lacking in the scholarly approach to the science of numismatics. Instead, the three "P's" (promotion, prices, and profit) are the guiding influences in today's numismatic realm.

Fortunately, there is always an underlying element of people who actually strive to become a numismatist - you know, a person who studies and collects numismatic items (study comes before collecting in this case) and their shared knowledge helps everyone.

We spend millions of dollars for (of all things) the subjective grading of coins. It's truly a shame (and IMO somewhat of a disgrace) that there is no funding available for numismatic research in this country.

The past and present research done by serious numismatists is what's really important. Without that, you wouldn't have much to go on in this particular field of endeavor. >>

Bravo! Post of the month for sure.

dorkkarl · October 30, 2007 6:01AM

<< this place is a playground, not a schoolroom. we are generally here on "recess" from our scholarly studies, sort of on a Numismatic smoke-break. if you miss that, you are either dense or foolishly self-absorbed. >>

tell david hall that his website is a "playground". i'm sure dumber things have been said to him

K S

keets · October 30, 2007 6:23AM

Karl, you have a ridiculous sense of self which causes you to be absent here for months at a time, only to reappear when things get a little crazy. then you make a post like this where you try to come off as a savior or prophet with words of wisdom to rescue us from ourselves. all very noble but pathetic in it's own way.

i'm certain HRH has in fact had dumber things said to him than my reply, but i also doubt he put this forum in place for the edification of us all. it's a marketing tool where we can all gather for whatever our own reasons are, plain and simple, no arguement from most although i'm sure you'll pick up the gauntlet and carry the sword in your own inimitable way. this forum and all that goes on here certainly resembles a schoolhouse at times, but then so does the local pub if you spend any amount of time there. i suggest you wake up and smell the coffee while trying not to take yourself any more seriously than the rest of us.

dorkkarl · October 30, 2007 9:27PM

<< Karl, you have a ridiculous sense of self which causes you to be absent here for months at a time, only to reappear when things get a little crazy. then you make a post like this where you try to come off as a savior or prophet with words of wisdom to rescue us from ourselves. all very noble but pathetic in it's own way.

i'm certain HRH has in fact had dumber things said to him than my reply, but i also doubt he put this forum in place for the edification of us all. it's a marketing tool where we can all gather for whatever our own reasons are, plain and simple, no arguement from most although i'm sure you'll pick up the gauntlet and carry the sword in your own inimitable way. this forum and all that goes on here certainly resembles a schoolhouse at times, but then so does the local pub if you spend any amount of time there. i suggest you wake up and smell the coffee while trying not to take yourself any more seriously than the rest of us. >>

keets, when you figure out a sensible response, please do post it. blabbering about playgrounds & smokin' in the boys room does'nt add much to the issue

K S

Cladiator · October 30, 2007 9:35PM

<< **Because many collectors are lazy and dont want to learn before they buy. They dont want to read or listen, they just want and they want it now due to the sense of instant gratification that has infected our society...and then they cry when they get taken advantage of. >>

Truer words have never been spoken (typed) on this forum. Kudos John.

RYK · October 30, 2007 10:06PM

Great posts and great flaming all in one thread. What more could you ask for?

I came to numismatics to connect my love of history with an interest in coins. I found that the love of coins is illusory in the hobby and largely shadowed by the love of money displayed by too many of the participants.

RYK · October 30, 2007 11:17PM

Instead, the three "P's" (promotion, prices, and profit) are the guiding influences in today's numismatic realm.

Don't forget the fourth "P": Plastic

planetsteve · October 30, 2007 11:19PM

<< i'm certain HRH has in fact had dumber things said to him than my reply, but i also doubt he put this forum in place for the edification of us all. it's a marketing tool where we can all gather for whatever our own reasons are, plain and simple.... >>

Keets, this board is hosted by a public company that is in the business of assigning point grades to coins.
And it sounds like you are excusing the behavior of talking about marketing and money as it relates to this mere hobby! What, are you nuts?

edit: typo

Unknown · October 31, 2007 12:26AM

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jmski52 · October 31, 2007 12:45AM

Ever since I was a kid, my idea was to eventually own a Pine Tree Shilling.

I read about one of these in a Hardy Boys book, sometime around 1961 and it just kinda stuck. It might not involve numismatics, but when I finally do obtain one, it will be both gratifying, and fun.

I see that Dave Bowers lists it as one of his favorites in this week's Coin World. At least we have similar tastes! The difference is that he has probably handled more of these than I'll ever see in my lifetime by a factor of 100.

I guess that I'm more a sucker for "coin lore" than anything else, including attribution, grading nuances, toning, die varieties or pricing scales. If a coin says "original" to me, then it talking directly to me, and the stories that an original coin can tell are what I like the most. I don't know if that's numismatics, but that's the attraction for me.

And yet, there's still nothing quite like dropping a 1 ozer Plat onto a countertop to hear it make it's own statement. There's something to be said for a nice, heavy, high-density piece of round metal that's worth more than it's weight in gold!

Pistareen · October 31, 2007 12:54AM

Check out my sig line. That should let you know where I stand.

Daniel Eccleston created the 1805 Eccleston/Washington medal to honor his hero, George Washington. The line is taken from a letter to Thomas Jefferson, to whom he presented a specimen as President. Jefferson and Eccleston were both collectors -- and Jefferson's Eccleston medal remains in his home at Monticello.

I don't know what Crosby's voice sounded like, but I know his research. I couldn't tell you about Lorin Parmelee's personal habits or ego, but I know what kind of coins he had. They're both gone without a trace, but the collections they formed live on in legend and the research accomplished by their generation remains.

The coins and the research will far outlive us all.

I'm with RYK -- a history geek who has used the study of coins to inform his knowledge and appreciation for history rather than the other way around. There is a reason that the first line of my website is what it is.

IrishMike · October 31, 2007 12:55AM

My gist of this thread was that it was a generalization, not necessary and indictment of this place. This is such a small and insignificant part of the numismatic world that what happens in this forum won't affect the numismatic world a whit. I think some of yas are arguing about 2 different things.

RYK · October 31, 2007 12:58AM

RYK, maybe you've been hanging with the wrong crowd.

No, I have been hanging with a decent crowd. The problem is that they cannot control the market. They cannot stop the dippers-and-strippers from overpaying for, as a real life example, Norweb-pedigreed southern gold coins, working them (thereby erasing any tangible connection to the origin), and getting them into holders at higher grades and for more money. The coin industry is killing the coin hobby, if you ask me.

TwoSides2aCoin · October 31, 2007 12:59AM

I'm just a dweeb with brown wheaties and a cheerios sacagawea, but my family loves me

Cladiator · October 31, 2007 12:59AM

<< The coin industry is killing the coin hobby >>

Capitalism is great but unchecked capitalism will self destruct every time.

ColonialCoinUnion · October 31, 2007 1:24AM

I can relate to Joe's comments, but unfortunately to RYK's as well.

In my case, I became a dealer because it seemed like there was a gaping opportunity in the market for those selling originality, history, provenance, etc. Of course it is disheartening to see coins - like the Norweb piece you spoke of, and others like it - stripped, dipped and ruined (and upgraded!), but my feeling is the tide is turning. Albeit slowly.

There is certainly more discussion of collecting original uncorrupted coins than there was a few years ago and more people dealing in and collecting such items.

And if enough of us feel this way (dealers and collectors alike), I think we can impact the industry in a positive way.

Coinsponge · October 31, 2007 1:26AM

<< RYK, maybe you've been hanging with the wrong crowd.

No, I have been hanging with a decent crowd. The problem is that they cannot control the market. They cannot stop the dippers-and-strippers from overpaying for, as a real life example, Norweb-pedigreed southern gold coins, working them (thereby erasing any tangible connection to the origin), and getting them into holders at higher grades and for more money. The coin industry is killing the coin hobby, if you ask me.

>>

Wouldn't you say that there has always been the tendency to "improve" coins by a percentage of collectors? It looks like there is a bit of nostalgia here for something that only existed in the ideal. I think what can really kill coin collecting is not tpg but the real crime of counterfeit historical coins.

Unknown · October 31, 2007 1:53AM

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dorkkarl · October 31, 2007 2:08AM

<< My gist of this thread was that it was a generalization, not necessary and indictment of this place. >>

you are correct, sir

K S

keets · October 31, 2007 3:20AM

My gist of this thread was that it was a generalization, not necessary and indictment of this place.

yeah, and it's probably just a coincidence that the OP hasn't been around for quite some time and happened to pop in now, just after a weekend when there was some angst and contention resulting from a big marketing campaign by a new entity. like the same scenario hasn't unfolded several times over the past few years, it's old and i'm quite surprised some of you guys don't understand how disingenuous it is.

originalisbest · October 31, 2007 3:37AM

DK, pharmer is QUITE right - of course it's a playground!

As DH himself says - "Have fun with your coins."

Straight from the horse's mouth....

IrishMike · October 31, 2007 3:41AM

Keets I object on relevance.

stman · October 31, 2007 3:47AM

<< this place is a playground, not a schoolroom. we are generally here on "recess" from our scholarly studies, sort of on a Numismatic smoke-break. if you miss that, you are either dense or foolishly self-absorbed. >>

Sorry Keets, I don't know that many think of this as a playground. Although I think they use it as their "Cheers Bar"

dorkkarl · October 31, 2007 3:51AM

<< My gist of this thread was that it was a generalization, not necessary and indictment of this place.

yeah, and it's probably just a coincidence that the OP hasn't been around for quite some time and happened to pop in now, just after a weekend when there was some angst and contention resulting from a big marketing campaign by a new entity. like the same scenario hasn't unfolded several times over the past few years, it's old and i'm quite surprised some of you guys don't understand how disingenuous it is. >>

keets, either your drunk, or your underwear is on way too tight. i do'nt have the slightest clue what in the he11 you are babbling about

K S

Kimchee · October 31, 2007 4:48AM

Is there a link to the original article from which I see several quotes in this thread?

dorkkarl · October 31, 2007 4:54AM

<< Is there a link to the original article from which I see several quotes in this thread? >>

joconnor's words of wisdom that i quoted appeared here

K S

Longacre · October 31, 2007 5:01AM

<< The coin industry is killing the coin hobby, if you ask me.

>>

Silly, RYK. Don't you know there is no such thing as a coin industry?

ColonialCoinUnion · October 31, 2007 5:47AM

<< keets, either your drunk, or your underwear is on way too tight. i do'nt have the slightest clue what in the he11 you are babbling about

K S >>

It's always nice to be able to come to this chatroom and enjoy some civil discourse on the issues of the day.

keets · October 31, 2007 6:38AM

actually, i'm not drunk and i'm not wearing any underwear right now!!

as a consequence, my mind is sharp and my recollection clear. feigning ignorance can't save you, Karl, but i digress. i think we should get back to Numismatics but probably not at this site in the manner you'd like. right now i'm headed out for a smoke and i'm gonna finish my coffee before it gets cold.

you have a nice day, Karl. let me leave you with a test. look at the picture below and tell me what coin it's from and anything else you can deduce from the picture. BTW, anyone else can play, too.

dorkkarl · October 31, 2007 8:58AM

<< actually, i'm not drunk and i'm not wearing any underwear right now!!

as a consequence, my mind is sharp and my recollection clear. feigning ignorance can't save you, Karl, but i digress. i think we should get back to Numismatics but probably not at this site in the manner you'd like. right now i'm headed out for a smoke and i'm gonna finish my coffee before it gets cold.

you have a nice day, Karl. let me leave you with a test. look at the picture below and tell me what coin it's from and anything else you can deduce from the picture. BTW, anyone else can play, too.

>>

uh, not sure what i'm supposed to be getting saved from, & my deduction from the lafayete dollar is that jeremy has a he11uva lotta work yet to do on the "Meet JK" page of his website.

put some underwear on BEFORE you finish that coffee!

K S

keets · October 31, 2007 12:26PM

right with "Lafayette" but since you looked at the properties of the picture you are disqualified from further guessing about it for cheating.
wrong about JK's website, he has only been gracious enough to host my pictures for me, nothing else.

can you think on your own, or do you always need assistance??

JRocco · October 31, 2007 12:46PM

<< The idea is good...the execution is difficult.

The idea of a grading service was to protect collectors from practices amongst a percentage of dealers that was detrimental to the collectors wallets. >>

I disagree with you on this one John.

The main push way back when of TPG plastic was for the purpose of sight unseen investor grade coinage to be able to be purchased for investment and help enable quick liquidation.

Today banana heads slab Poor graded coins because .....not to be too inpolite....because they are banana heads.......

tradedollarnut · October 31, 2007 1:04PM

The set was expensive, but boring, and most of the coins had been "helped".

So which collectors ended up with these 'helped' coins after you resold them?

Zoins · October 31, 2007 11:08PM

<< Great posts and great flaming all in one thread. What more could you ask for?

I came to numismatics to connect my love of history with an interest in coins. I found that the love of coins is illusory in the hobby and largely shadowed by the love of money displayed by too many of the participants. >>

Does the love of money overpower, well ... , the love of money?

dorkkarl · October 31, 2007 11:09PM

<< right with "Lafayette" but since you looked at the properties of the picture you are disqualified from further guessing about it for cheating.
wrong about JK's website, he has only been gracious enough to host my pictures for me, nothing else.

can you think on your own, or do you always need assistance?? >>

dude are you actually planning on posting anything intelligible???

good grief

K S

Unknown · October 31, 2007 11:18PM

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Zoins · October 31, 2007 11:19PM

<< The set was expensive, but boring, and most of the coins had been "helped".

So which collectors ended up with these 'helped' coins after you resold them?

They were sold to a wholesale dealer that supplies many of the coin investment marketers. So, they're probably sitting in someone's "portfolio". >>

I don't know about this dealer but many "investment marketers" rely on top tier TPG grading to bury their unknowing clients.

it's time for collectors and dealers to get back to numismatics.

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