Point made. This has been a fair discussion for collectors and for the graders who are NOT culprits
saintguru
Posts: 7,727 ✭✭✭
What the hell is this new "numis-insecurity" that has plagued this place and the market in the last 6 months? For years everyone has talked about their good coins, their not so good coins and generally with a pretty good deal of knowledge and confidence. Collecting coins is an art that takes a good eye, experience and objectivity, developed over time, as a hobby should. This has worked for over a century and still seems to be just fine for those who have been at this for a while. Anytime one lays out money for a collectible "caveat emptor" should be in our minds.
Now we have an environment where someone starts screaming fire in someone else's house, claims to be the Joan Of Arc of coins; it spreads like the Santa Ana hot wind to a few others, and the next thing you know there's a whole new religion of belief that graders need to be graded. Now it's engulfing these boards, people are doubting their own knowledge, there's paranoia and mistrust....for what? FIRE! FIRE???
This NOISE...This HOT STANKY AIR...about Saints being overgraded, meat-grinder Morgans being being holdered, etal. ad nauseum....it's all coming from ONE place...and frankly far too many people are simply accepting this as if it was some pandemic that just came from nowhere. I don't look at generic Saints often, but it seems to me that the bulk of them are for playing the gold market and not for collecting. There are sight-unseen bids for MS63, 64, 65's that are simply bullion bids. IF, IF, IF there are so many overgraded Saints, then don't buy them. Let them trade in the wholesale market. Man...you people know grades...I've tested it many times here and consensus is tough and good! This belief that a large percentage of coins are overgraded is sheer nonsense. (In fact, I personally think most of my coins are undergraded!
)
This whole campaign smacks of coin-McCarthyism and very few people have stood up and said "WAIT A G*DAMN MINUTE!!" We have a coin market that has grown by hundreds of millions of dollars in the last 20 years that NEVER would have done so without the quality TPG grading and slabbing of coins. I for one would never have started collecting again without this validation. So the big bad wolf huffs and puffs and instead of people realizing their house is made of bricks, act like it's made of sticks.
Would I like a PQ designation on coins? Sure...why not? I think my coins are PQ so I have nothing to lose. If some aren't, so what? Do I think it's NECESSARY to get coins re-appraised? NO. It's up to your eyes to buy what's good. You can tell a good coin when you see one. You have doubts....PASS! NO ONE EVER LOST A DIME PASSING ON A COIN.
My legitimate case for a PQ designation would stem from the fact that the grading system has been around for 20 years without any modifications and we've learned that an MS65 can be broad in terms of quality, yet still be an MS65. So for the purpose of just distinguishing great coins I would say it's OK. But NOT because the system is FUBAR.
That's just propaganda coming from someone who blasts PCGS but carries 95% of their coins in their inventory. If you're gonna talk the talk you better walk the walk. I ain't buying and I'm sick of this going unchallenged directly.
Fire away.
Jay Brahin/Saintguru
Now we have an environment where someone starts screaming fire in someone else's house, claims to be the Joan Of Arc of coins; it spreads like the Santa Ana hot wind to a few others, and the next thing you know there's a whole new religion of belief that graders need to be graded. Now it's engulfing these boards, people are doubting their own knowledge, there's paranoia and mistrust....for what? FIRE! FIRE???
This NOISE...This HOT STANKY AIR...about Saints being overgraded, meat-grinder Morgans being being holdered, etal. ad nauseum....it's all coming from ONE place...and frankly far too many people are simply accepting this as if it was some pandemic that just came from nowhere. I don't look at generic Saints often, but it seems to me that the bulk of them are for playing the gold market and not for collecting. There are sight-unseen bids for MS63, 64, 65's that are simply bullion bids. IF, IF, IF there are so many overgraded Saints, then don't buy them. Let them trade in the wholesale market. Man...you people know grades...I've tested it many times here and consensus is tough and good! This belief that a large percentage of coins are overgraded is sheer nonsense. (In fact, I personally think most of my coins are undergraded!
)This whole campaign smacks of coin-McCarthyism and very few people have stood up and said "WAIT A G*DAMN MINUTE!!" We have a coin market that has grown by hundreds of millions of dollars in the last 20 years that NEVER would have done so without the quality TPG grading and slabbing of coins. I for one would never have started collecting again without this validation. So the big bad wolf huffs and puffs and instead of people realizing their house is made of bricks, act like it's made of sticks.
Would I like a PQ designation on coins? Sure...why not? I think my coins are PQ so I have nothing to lose. If some aren't, so what? Do I think it's NECESSARY to get coins re-appraised? NO. It's up to your eyes to buy what's good. You can tell a good coin when you see one. You have doubts....PASS! NO ONE EVER LOST A DIME PASSING ON A COIN.
My legitimate case for a PQ designation would stem from the fact that the grading system has been around for 20 years without any modifications and we've learned that an MS65 can be broad in terms of quality, yet still be an MS65. So for the purpose of just distinguishing great coins I would say it's OK. But NOT because the system is FUBAR.
That's just propaganda coming from someone who blasts PCGS but carries 95% of their coins in their inventory. If you're gonna talk the talk you better walk the walk. I ain't buying and I'm sick of this going unchallenged directly.
Fire away.
Jay Brahin/Saintguru
0
Comments
Makes sense to me!
I knew it would happen.
Great (and true) stuff Jay.
I have been saying this for IKEs for quite a while and am really sick of all the "overgraded" nonsense that spouts from the boards! The older board members know where it originates from but some of the newbies like to make their bones on this stuff. Quite frankly, its not needed. Newbie knowledge usually shines shortly after posting.
Thanks Jay!
The name is LEE!
I say keep buying coins you like.
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https://www.pcgs.com/SetRegistry/collectors-showcase/world-coins/one-coin-per-year-1600-2017/2422
bob
Recipient of the coveted "You Suck" award, April 2009 for cherrypicking a 1833 CBHD LM-5, and April 2022 for a 1835 LM-12, and again in Aug 2012 for picking off a 1952 FS-902.
Hoard the keys.
it's sort of built into the system, and I agree with you.
But more important...
Do you think that a chinch can bite as hard as a bedbug?
Why do men go crazy when a woman wears her dress so tight?
If 6 was 9 would that screw up grading?
I just believe that this whole dumpster of garbage that's been dumped here is waaaaay overblown. I go to most of the major shows and the "junk" isn't as you would have been led to believe. And what IS junk, looks like junk. We've all made mistakes, trust me...but on the whole, if you do your due-diligence and have patience for the right coin, you'll find that these claims are nothing more than noise.
<< <i>Saintguru - The insecurity isn't new, it's been here since the advent of the TPG's,
it's sort of built into the system, and I agree with you.
But more important...
Do you think that a chinch can bite as hard as a bedbug?
Why do men go crazy when a woman wears her dress so tight?
If 6 was 9 would that screw up grading?
DAYUMMM. I been waiting for that to go noticed.
So:
1) NO...say Blind Lemon Jefferson
2) Bluesmen likes their women with "bacK'...make them craaazy!
3) Hell yeah! Jimi could never have been a grader.
Jay, good post, and don't let all the bickering get to you. There ARE still enough people out there who are still true to "collecting" as is shown by the knowledge shared by the generous people of this forum. Hopefully, this forum will continue to offer sound knowledge and advice about COINS. I know that I have learnedmuch more about grading here than I ever have looking at a TPG coin.
It's people like you that should be heard when an arsonist starts a fire like this one. There's been so much talk about this necessity of "grader-graders" but really NO true defense of what we DO have as opposed to what we used to have....NOTHING. 30 years ago you would buy a coin that was sold as Brilliant UNC. and then years later go to sell it and a dealer would say it's XF or AU. Now that sucked!
So congrats on POST#1. It was a noble one.
<< <i>This is the first time I have ever posted on here, but have been lurking around for sometime. AND, this is the first time that I have really felt compelled to post. What saintguru has said rings absolutley true. If there weren't differing opinions about coin grades there would be no TPG. But what did you do before them? You either came to an agreement on price/grade and bought the coin or you didn't buy the coin and went on. If you know your stuff, great, you don't really need TPG to help you pick a coin. If you don't know your stuff, buy cautiously and get advice before you do. I feel that the TPG system really benefits a seller more than a buyer. The inexperienced buyer may be more apt to buy if they know a coin is graded by a TPG and pay more. But, where does the grading end? With the fourth party grader or the fifth, etc, etc.? Before you know it the slabs will have to be enlarged to handle all of the bumper stickers.
Jay, good post, and don't let all the bickering get to you. There ARE still enough people out there who are still true to "collecting" as is shown by the knowledge shared by the generous people of this forum. Hopefully, this forum will continue to offer sound knowledge and advice about COINS. I know that I have learnedmuch more about grading here than I ever have looking at a TPG coin. >>
Welcome aboard !! A breath of fresh air joins the forum !! Bravo...
Simply have them authenticate a coin, note any damage, flaws, tooling, etc........ and let the collector determine what it's worth to him/her....
--David Hall
<< <i>"Every coin is a grade higher in the hands of the owner."
--David Hall
Sometimes even more.....
<< <i>This has worked for over a century... >>
sadly, people, from emperors to kings to the avg. joe to me and you, have been collecting coins a couple thousand, seriously, years. i assume the scams started soon after, but you don't mess with the Emperor, else you lose the head!
Apropos of the coin posse/aka caca: "The longer he spoke of his honor, the tighter I held to my purse."
<< <i>"Every coin is a grade higher in the hands of the owner."
--David Hall
Or the seller
Coin's for sale/trade.
Tom Pilitowski
US Rare Coin Investments
800-624-1870
<< <i>So, I take it the venture-that-will-not-be-named is the genesis for this? The promoters are still with us, albeit somewhat quiet now, maybe they will beg to differ, if they still believe their previous pronouncements about the need for it. >>
SOME of them are dead here. SOME of them are self-serving.
And some are not. I have absolutely nothing bad to say about the main principle....it's the town criers that I take to task for their demagoguery and narcissism.
And schadenfrueden, Farfennugen, pumpernickel and gesundheitism.
Apropos of the coin posse/aka caca: "The longer he spoke of his honor, the tighter I held to my purse."
just KIDDING.
My take on it all is that slabbing takes out the concern of authenticity and provides at least fractional resale security. From a collecting perspective, the tag is the starting point perhaps. Not all MS65 examples of any date and series in any holder are the same. I don't need some other outfit to tell me that and suggest one piece is a better one for my set.
Jay, I am guessing this whole issue arose, not out of collector outrage (that I sure don't see in any big way) but from dealer frustration. Gradeflation is a fact, one that is economically inevitable like any inflation. The valuation step pressure insured repeated upgrade attempts, in or out of holders and "enhanced" or not. It isnt the TPGs' fault as much as the market's character. So, certain dealers, at the very least, reacted in that they no longer wanted to be market makers for certain TPGs. This gimmick is their way of corralling the subset they are willing to make a market for. One might also question motives in that some might be trying to enhance the market for their own inventories.
I have primary respect for all four of the top TPGs and will seriously consider any offering in any of them. They are all good, though perhaps worthy of criticism in some areas, always notably ultramodern proofs. They're all good for the most part and, again, just the starting point.
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Just don't kiss, OK?
as far as the whining, I haven't been around long enough, but it seems pretty similar with other types of investments and speculations.
These are tough times in the numismatic hobby and profession. There's a lot going on that engender strong feelings on both sides.
I think what you said makes perfectly good and clear sense.
So much so that......
I believe the time has come that has been given for a special award, should branch out now for a great post. The kind of post where clarity of thought and well expressed ideas, deserve recognition.
So, I, a lowly moderate lurker.... for your outstanding post.....award to saintguru the first "you suck" award in congratulations for what you wrote!
Write on bruddah!!!!!