<< <i>I don't see anyone getting anything foisted upon them. Those who want it will do it, those who don't won't. Personally doesn't matter a cat's hairball one way or another to me. >>
At the risk of joining the REAL "silent majority" and getting "poofed" out of here , I agree with you . I think that the individual can decide whether thay see a premium in a stickered slab or not . It will be interesting to have a poll in a few years and see how many of Saintguru's supporters in this thread would choose stickered slab over a non stickered slab......and to see how many of the gurus slabs are stickered. I dont give a cats hairball either way but it would be interesting.
Supporters of WHAT? Am I advocating anything other than LOOK at the coins you buy and determine of you think they are good? I bought all my coins by searching for the best I could...and I've had some rather interesting luck. Maybe a few killer upgrades?
My point here is not about stickers. It's about the hysteria that was created in order to introduce this new concept. Read my OP more carefully.
How many of my coins "would" be stickered if I wanted them? You guess.
When sight-unseen buying took hold soon after the beginning of the TPGs, the market was manipulated by sight-unseen bidding on low pop coins, pushing prices to unheard of levels that have still not been seen since, only to crash when money got tight. Once the fallacy of sight-unseen bidding on low pop coins was discovered (I spent a good 10 years denouncing it) the market became more focused on the look of the coin. The PQ coin was able to shine and be priced on its own merit. There is still sight unseen bidding today, but it is only real for very common coins.
If sight-unseen bidding abuses are once again allowed to rear its ugly head, we are all in trouble. I think it will be the one thing that can ruin this market.
Any market has to be an ask market. Prices are made by sales not promises to buy.
No matter how it's called, whether it's a PQ designation or a CAC sticker, whoever buys into this stuff, obviously don't know how to grade coins, therefore, they'll never know if they're buying the best coins!
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
From some of the coins inspected during CoinFest I can say that I'd be a willing buyer for that quality of type coin at premium prices. I did not see one average coin among the bunch.
<< <i>"My point here is not about stickers. It's about the hysteria that was created in order to introduce this new concept. Read my OP more carefully.
How many of my coins "would" be stickered if I wanted them? You guess". saint
HMMM, let me stick my neck out here. My guess, you don't care.
You buy the coin. Not somebody opinion of the coin. jws >>
<< <i>Supporters of WHAT? Am I advocating anything other than LOOK at the coins you buy and determine of you think they are good? I bpught all my coins by saerching for the best I could...and I've had some rather interesting luck. Maybe a few killer upgrades?
My point here is not about stickers. It's about the hysteria that was created in order to introduce this new concept. Read my OP more carefully.
How many of my coins "would" be stickered if I wanted them? You guess.
Neither saint nor guru am i. >>
I am sorry, seemed to have touched a nerve...I dont have the time or the money to go to shows and search for the best classics out there. If I buy anything it is sight unseen. What is an upgrade?? I am sure that all of your coins "could" be stickered.
When I look to purchase a coin, it's not a bit different than looking to buy a good horse. I can read pedigrees until hell freezes over but if that horse doesn't have clean lines, strong bones, kind eyes and a body type built for the purpose I have in mind, it won't matter how blue-blooded his papers are. I won't buy him. He doesn't have to be perfect, flaws are allowed as long as they don't interfere with the purpose. Does this make sense? Maybe you have to be from Wyoming...
If you don't know where you're going, you'll end up somewhere else.
And after 1-2-3 submissions it gets a higher grade.
Now look at the difference between Saint prices from MS64 to MS65...MS65 to MS66. Some are huge, multiples! I watched every auction and either saw the coins myself or had someone I trusted implicitely look at tthe suspected high-enders. (Oh...I don't have any of the upgraded coins anymore...after all, they were no longer PQ for the grade. :Funny
Joflax...you're on the same side as I am...but do yourself a favor. Go to a show...find a reputable dealer or two who understand that you don't want any sliders. Get them sent on approval. That's how you keep those feets nice and soft.
Again...I take umbrage with the party/s that declared a cold war against graders when there really is no war. I condemn dealers who act as if they are on a crusade, all the while they are hurting the market. I don;t like hypocrites who ebb and flow with whatever party line is cthe convenient crap du jour.
<< <i>I wonder how many CACed slabbed coins will get cracked out and sent in for upgrade. >>
I'd bet 75%. That's one of my concerns. As if the POPs aren't already skewed because these dicks toss the inserts, now they have a golden ticket to do it more.
<< <i>You buy a coin that is actually UNDERGRADED!!
And after 1-2-3 submissions it gets a higher grade.
Now look at the difference between Saint prices from MS64 to MS65...MS65 to MS66. Some are huge, multiples! I watched every auction and either saw the coins myself or had someone I trusted implicitely look at tthe suspected high-enders. (Oh...I don't have any of the upgraded coins anymore...after all, they were no longer PQ for the grade. :Funny
Joflax...you're on the same side as I am...but do yourself a favor. Go to a show...find a reputable dealer or two who understand that you don't want any sliders. Get them sent on approval. That's how you keep those feets nice and soft.
Again...I take umbrage with the party/s that declared a cold war against graders when there really is no war. I condemn dealers who act as if they are on a crusade, all the while they are hurting the market. I don;t like hypocrites who ebb and flow with whatever party line is cthe convenient crap du jour. >>
You are as wise as Bear!! and you have managed to get rid of your "not pq for the grade coins"....very wise
Pops. I've wondered (publicly) about those before, if I remember correctly. Something about a flawed business plan based on flawed population reports, ...or some such nonsense, wasn't it? Why should anyone be concerned about them now?
I'm sorry, it's just that stats are one of the things I work with and everyone's population reports just scream out at me.
<< <i>Pops. I've wondered (publicly) about those before, if I remember correctly. Something about a flawed business plan based on flawed population reports, ...or some such nonsense, wasn't it? Why should anyone be concerned about them now?
I'm sorry, it's just that stats are one of the things I work with and everyone's population reports just scream out at me. >>
<< <i>I wonder how many CACed slabbed coins will get cracked out and sent in for upgrade. >>
I'd bet 75%. That's one of my concerns. As if the POPs aren't already skewed because these dicks toss the inserts, now they have a golden ticket to do it more. >>
Are there people who will " crack out " a coin that they paid Ten or Twenty Thousand Dollars for?
<< <i>I wonder how many CACed slabbed coins will get cracked out and sent in for upgrade. >>
I'd bet 75%. That's one of my concerns. As if the POPs aren't already skewed because these dicks toss the inserts, now they have a golden ticket to do it more. >>
Are there people who will " crack out " a coin that they paid Ten or Twenty Thousand Dollars for? >>
I'd guess more of the crackouts will be done by those who hope to get an upgrade than by those who expect to get an upgrade.
<< <i>I wonder how many CACed slabbed coins will get cracked out and sent in for upgrade. >>
I'd bet 75%. That's one of my concerns. As if the POPs aren't already skewed because these dicks toss the inserts, now they have a golden ticket to do it more. >>
Are there people who will " crack out " a coin that they paid Ten or Twenty Thousand Dollars for? >>
No. If they have this proposed gold CAC sticker, they'll be sent in as-is and get the upgrade more often than not. That's why I figure it is no remedy to gradeflation but might exacerbate it.
Great post, Jay. I'm in total agreement with what you said. People really just have to be able to look PAST the plastic and decide for themselves whether the coin is worthy of the grade or not. If they decide that it isn't, just pass! Like you said, nobody ever lost a dime by passing on a coin.
I agree that TPGs (while not without their flaws) have brought tremendous stability to this hobby, but at a certain point we each are the ones who are ultimately responsible for our own purchases.
I have great respect for TDN - I value his participation on these boards as I for one regard him as a truly knowledgeable on the subject of coins and the state of the hobby - and so if he senses a need and an opportunity in the current marketplace for a venture like the one he in part has embarked upon than I sincerely wish him luck with it.
I personally however, have been scratching my head...
At times I have heard the venture framed as a response to TPG 'gradeflation' (be it real, perceived, or otherwise created,) however it seems to me that releasing little green stickers into the world is not going to fundementally change the questions we all must ask when evaluating a coin for purchase - especially when there is no way to tell if an unstickered coin has ever been evaluated or not. Other times I have heard the venture framed as a service that allows an otherwise isolated collector access to expert opinions that they might not otherwise have had access to; however, it seems to me that on the high end of the market advanced buyers are likely already savvy enough to know what they like and already connected enough to seek outside opinions when needed, while on the low end of the market premium designations are likely to do little more than escalate the grade hysteria frenzy that already exploits novice and uneducated collectors.
In the end it all comes back to the coins themselves, and, as we all know, when it comes to coins the golden rule is buy the coin not the plastic - no matter how many layers of it there are.
Where are all these overgraded coins? Only "Someone" seems to be besieged by them. Millions and millions of overgraded coins. Now what's the catch? What bugs me?
* "Someone" goes to every trade and grade show..."Someone" says they doesn't play that game. But that person is at every one.
* "Someone" says the crackout dealers make them sick, yet that person is the Jimmy Olsen for these guys. That person is close to every one and knows exactly who gets what...all the time. "Someone" is part of that scene whether they admit it or not. And one of "Someone's" biggest suppliers of coins is one of the most henious of all coin alter-artists. I'll take THAT to the bank.
* "Someone's" vicious attacks on this TPG? **Methinks the [person] doth protest too much.** Look at a certain inventory...95% of the coins are "this TPG"! I'd love to hear the explanation for this? "I found the few properly graded coins.."? Yeah right. As I said, if you're gonna talk the talk you better walk the walk.
* "Someone" MUST buy at least $10 million dollars worth of coins right now!"...what kind of coins? Raw? SEGS? Chocolate Hannukah Gelt? It's PCGS BABY!!
* Every coin this person buys is "SPECTACULAR". But they are PCGS coins. Now maybe "Someone" got their logic neurons fried from too many cheeseburgers and Jets games, but last I looked EVERY BIG COIN THAT PERSON BOUGHT AND BRAGGED ABOUT WAS IN A PCGS HOLDER! The nerve!
*Hubris, arrogance, narcissism, poor marketing savvy and a big mouth aren't in the business plan last I looked.
It's all in the book, baby. "Fat, [loud], and stupid is no way to go through life, son."--Dean Wormer
<< <i>What the heck is this new "numis-insecurity" that has plagued this place and the market in the last 6 months? For years everyone has talked about their good coins, their not so good coins and generally with a pretty good deal of knowledge and confidence. Collecting coins is an art that takes a good eye, experience and objectivity, developed over time, as a hobby should. This has worked for over a century and still seems to be just fine for those who have been at this for a while. Anytime one lays out money for a collectible "caveat emptor" should be in our minds.
Now we have an environment where someone starts screaming fire in someone else's house, claims to be the Joan Of Arc of coins; it spreads like the Santa Ana hot wind to a few others, and the next thing you know there's a whole new religion of belief that graders need to be graded. Now it's engulfing these boards, people are doubting their own knowledge, there's paranoia and mistrust....for what? FIRE! FIRE???
This NOISE...This HOT STANKY AIR...about Saints being overgraded, meat-grinder Morgans being being holdered, etal. ad nauseum....it's all coming from ONE place...and frankly far too many people are simply accepting this as if it was some pandemic that just came from nowhere. I don't look at generic Saints often, but it seems to me that the bulk of them are for playing the gold market and not for collecting. There are sight-unseen bids for MS63, 64, 65's that are simply bullion bids. IF, IF, IF there are so many overgraded Saints, then don't buy them. Let them trade in the wholesale market. Man...you people know grades...I've tested it many times here and consensus is tough and good! This belief that a large percentage of coins are overgraded is sheer nonsense. (In fact, I personally think most of my coins are undergraded! )
This whole campaign smacks of coin-McCarthyism and very few people have stood up and said "WAIT A G*DAMN MINUTE!!" We have a coin market that has grown by hundreds of millions of dollars in the last 20 years that NEVER would have done so without the quality TPG grading and slabbing of coins. I for one would never have started collecting again without this validation. So the big bad wolf huffs and puffs and instead of people realizing their house is made of bricks, act like it's made of sticks.
Would I like a PQ designation on coins? Sure...why not? I think my coins are PQ so I have nothing to lose. If some aren't, so what? Do I think it's NECESSARY to get coins re-appraised? NO. It's up to your eyes to buy what's good. You can tell a good coin when you see one. You have doubts....PASS! NO ONE EVER LOST A DIME PASSING ON A COIN.
My legitimate case for a PQ designation would stem from the fact that the grading system has been around for 20 years without any modifications and we've learned that an MS65 can be broad in terms of quality, yet still be an MS65. So for the purpose of just distinguishing great coins I would say it's OK. But NOT because the system is FUBAR.
That's just propaganda coming from someone who blasts PCGS but carries 95% of their coins in their inventory. If you're gonna talk the talk you better walk the walk. I ain't buying and I'm sick of this going unchallenged directly.
Fire away.
Jay Brahin/Saintguru >>
I'm just a widget collector with a few nice coins tossed in. But coins are cool and so is this post, Jay.
You're on a roll, Jay - don't let facts or logic slow you down. I know for a fact that Legend will buy any coin that meets its standards - be it NGC or PCGS. Yes, the market forces nice coins into PCGS holders no doubt... but that's the market.
You've got a point, but quit playing for the dweebs by being more of an obnoxious arse than you usually are about it.
This from the only poster to bring "homo slams" into a coin discussion?
You are not standing on a very strong platform.
Do you deny that any of this isn't true? This thread started to twist into a grader vs. grader's-graded thread, which was not as intended.
Once more...I am irked at the way that this project was dumped on the entire community...with slams on everyone and everything, with arrogance and heresay, with a negative, destructive voice.
This is NOT how you change something that you THINK is wrong. You don;t take a dump in your own mess kit, Bruce. You don;t come into someone else's home and tell them their furniture is ugly.
You use diplomacy and finesse. Instead, we got Stalinism.
It's fitting you two should lead-off this page today! Seems that it's kind of like tying two cats tails together and throwing them over the clothesline!
<< <i>This from the only poster to bring "homo slams" into a coin discussion?
You are not standing on a very strong platform. >>
I don't care. I'm losing what respect I had for you over this. It's real easy to continually slam someone not here to defend themselves, isn't it 'big guy'?
<< <i>This from the only poster to bring "homo slams" into a coin discussion?
You are not standing on a very strong platform. >>
I don't care. I'm losing what respect I had for you over this. It's real easy to continually slam someone not here to defend themselves, isn't it 'big guy'? >>
No.
You're talking about the biggest slammer I've ever known....she's done more slamming that the 10 most negative people here combined. You want to turn it on me? That's a twisted view of the world. Why is that person NOT here to defend themselves. Because that person torched everything in a brash, inappropriate way...and continues to do so every week on a website.
I call them the way I see them. If that's too much for you, I'm sorry. It isn't personal.
Thank you Jay for this thread... your observations are keen... you have put words to thoughts and 'feelings' I have had about all this 'cr*p' for a long time now...
At one time I thought there were "too many overgraded coins" in holders... then, over time, I realized that...
...there are coins that I find attractive and then there are those that I do not like...regardless of the technical grade...
...just because a painting costs millions of $ doesn't mean I want it on MY wall...and another might be painted by a so-called "no name" but is just the painting for my taste...
...back to coins... I recently found a DB Half in a "problem" holder ... beautiful coin IMHO... labeled as cleaned and grafitti... the cleaning is light and I have seen far worse get into top tier holders... and the "grafitti" is artistically and most likely professionally done engraving of a date into the field between the back of the Busts' head and the lettering... looks as if it was meant to be there... this is now my FAVORITE coin in my collection...
...showed it to a dealer...he grunted "it's a damaged coin" ... when I show it to collectors they "oooh" and "ahhh"...
Collect what you like and like what you collect...
Re: Slabbed coins - There are some coins that LIVE within clear plastic and wear their labels with pride... while there are others that HIDE behind scratched plastic and are simply dragged along by a label. Then there are those coins that simply hang out, naked and free
I have one question for someone in favor of the CAC. If NGC and PCGS is so bad about grading, then why is the CAC only grading coins from these two services? It sounds a little hypocritical to me or that the CAC just wants a “gravy train” on someone else’s back.
I put my ass on the line when I started this thread...and I thought it could have been a flamefest at my expense. I'm no one's hero. This was MY opinion and MY frustration with the damage that's been done to the trust in this market, which is a most valuable asset...a NECESSARY one.
I have NO vendetta. I am mad at tactics. I'd sit down and say everything I did to you-know-who in person, and I;d be calm and logical.
I mean you no harm and your defense of certain principles that have been breeched is not what I think you represent.
I have one question for someone in favor of the CAC. If NGC and PCGS is so bad about grading, then why is the CAC only grading coins from these two services? It sounds a little hypocritical to me or that the CAC just wants a “gravy train” on someone else’s back
It's been made clear to me that this website is not the place to have such a discussion.
I think all the points that were intended to be made have been done so.
This is now twisting from it's intended message. I am sorry that happened, and this is not an attempt to dis any enhancing element that comes into the coin market. It's the way it was done that provokd this, and now it's getting personal.
Comments
An authorized PCGS dealer, and a contributor to the Red Book.
<< <i>I don't see anyone getting anything foisted upon them. Those who want it will do it, those who don't won't. Personally doesn't matter a cat's hairball one way or another to me. >>
At the risk of joining the REAL "silent majority" and getting "poofed" out of here , I agree with you . I think that the individual can decide whether thay see a premium in a stickered slab or not . It will be interesting to have a poll in a few years and see how many of Saintguru's supporters in this thread would choose stickered slab over a non stickered slab......and to see how many of the gurus slabs are stickered. I dont give a cats hairball either way but it would be interesting.
My point here is not about stickers. It's about the hysteria that was created in order to introduce this new concept. Read my OP more carefully.
How many of my coins "would" be stickered if I wanted them? You guess.
Neither saint nor guru am i.
When sight-unseen buying took hold soon after the beginning of the TPGs, the market was manipulated by sight-unseen bidding on low pop coins, pushing prices to unheard of levels that have still not been seen since, only to crash when money got tight. Once the fallacy of sight-unseen bidding on low pop coins was discovered (I spent a good 10 years denouncing it) the market became more focused on the look of the coin. The PQ coin was able to shine and be priced on its own merit. There is still sight unseen bidding today, but it is only real for very common coins.
If sight-unseen bidding abuses are once again allowed to rear its ugly head, we are all in trouble. I think it will be the one thing that can ruin this market.
Any market has to be an ask market. Prices are made by sales not promises to buy.
How many of my coins "would" be stickered if I wanted them? You guess". saint
HMMM, let me stick my neck out here. My guess, you don't care.
You buy the coin. Not someones opinion of the coin. jws
Edited for splelling/grammar.
Goose you are falling down on the job.
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
roadrunner
<< <i>"My point here is not about stickers. It's about the hysteria that was created in order to introduce this new concept. Read my OP more carefully.
How many of my coins "would" be stickered if I wanted them? You guess". saint
HMMM, let me stick my neck out here. My guess, you don't care.
You buy the coin. Not somebody opinion of the coin. jws >>
GIVE THE MAN A KEWPIE DOLL!!!
<< <i>Supporters of WHAT? Am I advocating anything other than LOOK at the coins you buy and determine of you think they are good? I bpught all my coins by saerching for the best I could...and I've had some rather interesting luck. Maybe a few killer upgrades?
My point here is not about stickers. It's about the hysteria that was created in order to introduce this new concept. Read my OP more carefully.
How many of my coins "would" be stickered if I wanted them? You guess.
Neither saint nor guru am i. >>
I am sorry, seemed to have touched a nerve...I dont have the time or the money to go to shows and search for the best classics out there. If I buy anything it is sight unseen.
What is an upgrade??
I am sure that all of your coins "could" be stickered.
That's not the way to build great collections unless you're just lucky all the time.
<< <i>Not a nerve at all...but you're putting your feet in the fire buying coins sight unseen.
That's not the way to build great collections unless you're just lucky all the time. >>
Yeah I have burnt my feet!! I am VERY unlikely to build a great collection. Please explain the upgrade thing.
And after 1-2-3 submissions it gets a higher grade.
Now look at the difference between Saint prices from MS64 to MS65...MS65 to MS66. Some are huge, multiples! I watched every auction and either saw the coins myself or had someone I trusted implicitely look at tthe suspected high-enders. (Oh...I don't have any of the upgraded coins anymore...after all, they were no longer PQ for the grade. :Funny
Joflax...you're on the same side as I am...but do yourself a favor. Go to a show...find a reputable dealer or two who understand that you don't want any sliders. Get them sent on approval. That's how you keep those feets nice and soft.
Again...I take umbrage with the party/s that declared a cold war against graders when there really is no war. I condemn dealers who act as if they are on a crusade, all the while they are hurting the market. I don;t like hypocrites who ebb and flow with whatever party line is cthe convenient crap du jour.
<< <i>I wonder how many CACed slabbed coins will get cracked out and sent in for upgrade. >>
I'd bet 75%. That's one of my concerns. As if the POPs aren't already skewed because these dicks toss the inserts, now they have a golden ticket to do it more.
<< <i>You buy a coin that is actually UNDERGRADED!!
And after 1-2-3 submissions it gets a higher grade.
Now look at the difference between Saint prices from MS64 to MS65...MS65 to MS66. Some are huge, multiples! I watched every auction and either saw the coins myself or had someone I trusted implicitely look at tthe suspected high-enders. (Oh...I don't have any of the upgraded coins anymore...after all, they were no longer PQ for the grade. :Funny
Joflax...you're on the same side as I am...but do yourself a favor. Go to a show...find a reputable dealer or two who understand that you don't want any sliders. Get them sent on approval. That's how you keep those feets nice and soft.
Again...I take umbrage with the party/s that declared a cold war against graders when there really is no war. I condemn dealers who act as if they are on a crusade, all the while they are hurting the market. I don;t like hypocrites who ebb and flow with whatever party line is cthe convenient crap du jour. >>
You are as wise as Bear!! and you have managed to get rid of your "not pq for the grade coins"....very wise
I'm sorry, it's just that stats are one of the things I work with and everyone's population reports just scream out at me.
<< <i>Pops. I've wondered (publicly) about those before, if I remember correctly. Something about a flawed business plan based on flawed population reports, ...or some such nonsense, wasn't it? Why should anyone be concerned about them now?
I'm sorry, it's just that stats are one of the things I work with and everyone's population reports just scream out at me. >>
<< <i>
<< <i>I wonder how many CACed slabbed coins will get cracked out and sent in for upgrade. >>
I'd bet 75%. That's one of my concerns. As if the POPs aren't already skewed because these dicks toss the inserts, now they have a golden ticket to do it more.
Are there people who will " crack out " a coin that they paid Ten or Twenty Thousand Dollars for?
Chance favors the prepared mind.
In my words, Bully-on for you!!
"Everything is on its way to somewhere. Everything." - George Malley, Phenomenon
http://www.american-legacy-coins.com
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>I wonder how many CACed slabbed coins will get cracked out and sent in for upgrade. >>
I'd bet 75%. That's one of my concerns. As if the POPs aren't already skewed because these dicks toss the inserts, now they have a golden ticket to do it more.
Are there people who will " crack out " a coin that they paid Ten or Twenty Thousand Dollars for? >>
I'd guess more of the crackouts will be done by those who hope to get an upgrade than by those who expect to get an upgrade.
Will upgradable coins be marked CAC*?
How many of my coins "would" be stickered if I wanted them? You guess". saint
HMMM, let me stick my neck out here. My guess, you don't care.
You buy the coin. Not somebody opinion of the coin. jws >>
GIVE THE MAN A KEWPIE DOLL!!! saint.
Proud receipient of what I hope is a 1st. Now I just need to get to work and get me a, "you suck award".
Upon reflection I should be carefull of what I wish for.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>I wonder how many CACed slabbed coins will get cracked out and sent in for upgrade. >>
I'd bet 75%. That's one of my concerns. As if the POPs aren't already skewed because these dicks toss the inserts, now they have a golden ticket to do it more.
Are there people who will " crack out " a coin that they paid Ten or Twenty Thousand Dollars for? >>
No. If they have this proposed gold CAC sticker, they'll be sent in as-is and get the upgrade more often than not. That's why I figure it is no remedy to gradeflation but might exacerbate it.
NSDR - Life Member
SSDC - Life Member
ANA - Pay As I Go Member
call it a mink.......but it's still a skunk.
Camelot
<< <i>You can put a label on a skunk and
call it a mink.......but it's still a skunk. >>
U.S. Nickels Complete Set with Major Varieties, Circulation Strikes
U.S. Dimes Complete Set with Major Varieties, Circulation Strikes
I agree that TPGs (while not without their flaws) have brought tremendous stability to this hobby, but at a certain point we each are the ones who are ultimately responsible for our own purchases.
I have great respect for TDN - I value his participation on these boards as I for one regard him as a truly knowledgeable on the subject of coins and the state of the hobby - and so if he senses a need and an opportunity in the current marketplace for a venture like the one he in part has embarked upon than I sincerely wish him luck with it.
I personally however, have been scratching my head...
At times I have heard the venture framed as a response to TPG 'gradeflation' (be it real, perceived, or otherwise created,) however it seems to me that releasing little green stickers into the world is not going to fundementally change the questions we all must ask when evaluating a coin for purchase - especially when there is no way to tell if an unstickered coin has ever been evaluated or not. Other times I have heard the venture framed as a service that allows an otherwise isolated collector access to expert opinions that they might not otherwise have had access to; however, it seems to me that on the high end of the market advanced buyers are likely already savvy enough to know what they like and already connected enough to seek outside opinions when needed, while on the low end of the market premium designations are likely to do little more than escalate the grade hysteria frenzy that already exploits novice and uneducated collectors.
In the end it all comes back to the coins themselves, and, as we all know, when it comes to coins the golden rule is buy the coin not the plastic - no matter how many layers of it there are.
~ Artist
>>>My Collection
<< <i>Are there people who will " crack out " a coin that they paid Ten or Twenty Thousand Dollars for? >>
If they can turn it into a $46k coin, you better believe it.
<< <i> especially when there is no way to tell if an unstickered coin has ever been evaluated or not. >>
So they are going to sticker the ones that pass muster and just fuhgeddabout the ones that don't?
* "Someone" goes to every trade and grade show..."Someone" says they doesn't play that game. But that person is at every one.
* "Someone" says the crackout dealers make them sick, yet that person is the Jimmy Olsen for these guys. That person is close to every one and knows exactly who gets what...all the time. "Someone" is part of that scene whether they admit it or not. And one of "Someone's" biggest suppliers of coins is one of the most henious of all coin alter-artists. I'll take THAT to the bank.
* "Someone's" vicious attacks on this TPG? **Methinks the [person] doth protest too much.** Look at a certain inventory...95% of the coins are "this TPG"!
* "Someone" MUST buy at least $10 million dollars worth of coins right now!"...what kind of coins? Raw? SEGS? Chocolate Hannukah Gelt? It's PCGS BABY!!
* Every coin this person buys is "SPECTACULAR". But they are PCGS coins. Now maybe "Someone" got their logic neurons fried from too many cheeseburgers and Jets games, but last I looked EVERY BIG COIN THAT PERSON BOUGHT AND BRAGGED ABOUT WAS IN A PCGS HOLDER! The nerve!
*Hubris, arrogance, narcissism, poor marketing savvy and a big mouth aren't in the business plan last I looked.
It's all in the book, baby. "Fat, [loud], and stupid is no way to go through life, son."--Dean Wormer
Wheeeew.
I knew it would happen.
<< <i>What the heck is this new "numis-insecurity" that has plagued this place and the market in the last 6 months? For years everyone has talked about their good coins, their not so good coins and generally with a pretty good deal of knowledge and confidence. Collecting coins is an art that takes a good eye, experience and objectivity, developed over time, as a hobby should. This has worked for over a century and still seems to be just fine for those who have been at this for a while. Anytime one lays out money for a collectible "caveat emptor" should be in our minds.
Now we have an environment where someone starts screaming fire in someone else's house, claims to be the Joan Of Arc of coins; it spreads like the Santa Ana hot wind to a few others, and the next thing you know there's a whole new religion of belief that graders need to be graded. Now it's engulfing these boards, people are doubting their own knowledge, there's paranoia and mistrust....for what? FIRE! FIRE???
This NOISE...This HOT STANKY AIR...about Saints being overgraded, meat-grinder Morgans being being holdered, etal. ad nauseum....it's all coming from ONE place...and frankly far too many people are simply accepting this as if it was some pandemic that just came from nowhere. I don't look at generic Saints often, but it seems to me that the bulk of them are for playing the gold market and not for collecting. There are sight-unseen bids for MS63, 64, 65's that are simply bullion bids. IF, IF, IF there are so many overgraded Saints, then don't buy them. Let them trade in the wholesale market. Man...you people know grades...I've tested it many times here and consensus is tough and good! This belief that a large percentage of coins are overgraded is sheer nonsense. (In fact, I personally think most of my coins are undergraded!
This whole campaign smacks of coin-McCarthyism and very few people have stood up and said "WAIT A G*DAMN MINUTE!!" We have a coin market that has grown by hundreds of millions of dollars in the last 20 years that NEVER would have done so without the quality TPG grading and slabbing of coins. I for one would never have started collecting again without this validation. So the big bad wolf huffs and puffs and instead of people realizing their house is made of bricks, act like it's made of sticks.
Would I like a PQ designation on coins? Sure...why not? I think my coins are PQ so I have nothing to lose. If some aren't, so what? Do I think it's NECESSARY to get coins re-appraised? NO. It's up to your eyes to buy what's good. You can tell a good coin when you see one. You have doubts....PASS! NO ONE EVER LOST A DIME PASSING ON A COIN.
My legitimate case for a PQ designation would stem from the fact that the grading system has been around for 20 years without any modifications and we've learned that an MS65 can be broad in terms of quality, yet still be an MS65. So for the purpose of just distinguishing great coins I would say it's OK. But NOT because the system is FUBAR.
That's just propaganda coming from someone who blasts PCGS but carries 95% of their coins in their inventory. If you're gonna talk the talk you better walk the walk. I ain't buying and I'm sick of this going unchallenged directly.
Fire away.
Jay Brahin/Saintguru >>
I'm just a widget collector with a few nice coins tossed in. But coins are cool and so is this post, Jay.
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
You've got a point, but quit playing for the dweebs by being more of an obnoxious arse than you usually are about it.
You are not standing on a very strong platform.
Do you deny that any of this isn't true? This thread started to twist into a grader vs. grader's-graded thread, which was not as intended.
Once more...I am irked at the way that this project was dumped on the entire community...with slams on everyone and everything, with arrogance and heresay, with a negative, destructive voice.
This is NOT how you change something that you THINK is wrong. You don;t take a dump in your own mess kit, Bruce. You don;t come into someone else's home and tell them their furniture is ugly.
You use diplomacy and finesse. Instead, we got Stalinism.
<< <i>This from the only poster to bring "homo slams" into a coin discussion?
You are not standing on a very strong platform. >>
I don't care. I'm losing what respect I had for you over this. It's real easy to continually slam someone not here to defend themselves, isn't it 'big guy'?
<< <i>You can put a label on a skunk and
call it a mink.......but it's still a skunk. >>
Best post in this thread so far is from Bear!
Here's to Laura
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
<< <i>
<< <i>This from the only poster to bring "homo slams" into a coin discussion?
You are not standing on a very strong platform. >>
I don't care. I'm losing what respect I had for you over this. It's real easy to continually slam someone not here to defend themselves, isn't it 'big guy'? >>
No.
You're talking about the biggest slammer I've ever known....she's done more slamming that the 10 most negative people here combined. You want to turn it on me? That's a twisted view of the world. Why is that person NOT here to defend themselves. Because that person torched everything in a brash, inappropriate way...and continues to do so every week on a website.
I call them the way I see them. If that's too much for you, I'm sorry. It isn't personal.
At one time I thought there were "too many overgraded coins" in holders... then, over time, I realized that...
...there are coins that I find attractive and then there are those that I do not like...regardless of the technical grade...
...just because a painting costs millions of $ doesn't mean I want it on MY wall...and another might be painted by a so-called "no name" but is just the painting for my taste...
...back to coins... I recently found a DB Half in a "problem" holder ... beautiful coin IMHO... labeled as cleaned and grafitti... the cleaning is light and I have seen far worse get into top tier holders... and the "grafitti" is artistically and most likely professionally done engraving of a date into the field between the back of the Busts' head and the lettering... looks as if it was meant to be there... this is now my FAVORITE coin in my collection...
...showed it to a dealer...he grunted "it's a damaged coin" ... when I show it to collectors they "oooh" and "ahhh"...
Collect what you like and like what you collect...
I put my ass on the line when I started this thread...and I thought it could have been a flamefest at my expense. I'm no one's hero. This was MY opinion and MY frustration with the damage that's been done to the trust in this market, which is a most valuable asset...a NECESSARY one.
I have NO vendetta. I am mad at tactics. I'd sit down and say everything I did to you-know-who in person, and I;d be calm and logical.
I mean you no harm and your defense of certain principles that have been breeched is not what I think you represent.
It's been made clear to me that this website is not the place to have such a discussion.
This is now twisting from it's intended message. I am sorry that happened, and this is not an attempt to dis any enhancing element that comes into the coin market. It's the way it was done that provokd this, and now it's getting personal.
I did NOT buy any Crisco nor will I.
Apropos of the coin posse/aka caca: "The longer he spoke of his honor, the tighter I held to my purse."