On a side note: What coin is it that goes from $1700 in NGC plastic to $6900 in PCGS plastic???
I think the missing element in the OP may be that the dealer misquoted on the coin. If that is the case, what would you do in the situation say, if it was you selling a coin and mistakenly priced a 1885-CC dollar as a 1885-O? (Or a MS-66 as a MS65.) Say, "sorry, but I can't sell it" or "OK, steal it from me".
An honest mistake or reading a price wrong is certainly not to be taken advantage of. However I did something similar once where I failed to check for an updated price on a coin I had held several years. The difference was $3400 to $4000. Nothing in this series had moved for years so I didn't even bother to check it as type moved so slow in the 1997-2003 era. But this was a slightly better date that I had cherried for common in 1996, and completely forgot that in 2002 when I went to sell it at FUN. A major dealer (Rare Coin Alliance I believe) was quoted $3400 and he asked if I misquoted. I told him I didn't misquote I just never checked. He allowed me an out and I passed. It was clear he was willing to pay the $4000. I so badly wanted to take the extra money as it was me who took all the risk the past 6 yrs....but I quoted him $3400 and kept to it. Had it been a pure mistake I would not have followed through. I guess it comes down to one's own integrity and beliefs.
Not often a quick learner, I made a similar mistake on a gem slightly better date MS Lib nickel that I priced at 10% over my cost and had owned for a few months. Again, I had forgotten that I had cherried this for common date price on ebay since it was in NGC plastic. It was worth another 25% more. The collector, someone I've chatted with for 20 years at shows, gave me an out, but I declined. Laziness is not an excuse. But now smoked twice, I finally learned the lesson....I hope.
Stealing in unacceptable. But if you're stupid - take your lumps.
Sir I am not a dealer, however I have bought and sold a few coins and I will tell you that my reputation alone would have made me sell the coin for the quoted price. We all make mistakes and on one occasion I misquoted a coin to a man who quickly pointed out that he felt I had made a mistake. I guess its all in two words--Ethics or Greed.
Hosspower is just plain "FUN". A Spade is a Spade. We all want mo Money. And everybody wanna go to Heaven, but nobody wanna Die !!
On the first day of a 2 day coin show, I sealed a deal with a coin dealer for a purchase of $1400.00. We shook hands and agreed on the sale. Next morning at the show, the dealer apparaently changed his mind and would not sell it to me. He said it could be one grade higher and now he was asking $2100.00 for it. It's been six months now, and he still has the coin and is still asking $2100.00 for it. Go figure.... Oh by the way, on that second day, I find an identical coin, same grade with another dealer and I only paid $1000.00. I went over to the first dealer and told him 'thank-you for breaking your word, as I found the same coin for $1000.00" Revenge is sweet.
"Gold is money, and nothing else" (JP Morgan, 1912)
"“Those who sacrifice liberty for security/safety deserve neither.“(Benjamin Franklin)
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
This is an interesting thread, I find it amazing that (based on their replies) a couple dealers on this thread have obvious reading and/or comprehension problems.
<< <i>This is an interesting thread, I find it amazing that (based on their replies) a couple dealers on this thread have obvious reading and/or comprehension problems. >>
I had one case that wasn't as drastic but similiar. A dealer had a coin priced with a tag. We start to talk about it, it gets mentioned that it is a low pop and doesn't sell often. He decides to check Heritage as we are talking and sees that one sold recently for 50% higher ( $1,000 price guide sold for $1,500).
Next thing I know, he asks for the coin back scratches out the $1,000 and replaces it with a $1,500.
Yeah, at that point I walk. He had the coin in his inventory for over a year. I did manage to find the coin in the same grade for $1,000. Later, I stopped by long enough to tell him thanks for the lesson and that I found a coin I liked better for a better price.
There are quite a few old to very old sayings going back as far and farther ancient China and Rome, they are still around because of there inherent truth. The modern one you forgot is LOOSE LIPS SINK SHIPS.
<< <i>If you took the coin to a dealer to sell, and said you would accept her $1700 offer, then before the money was exchanged, she looked it up and said "hey, this is worth $6900"
WHAT WOULD YOU DO? >>
The moron should have done his home work before he took the coin to a show and priced it out. If you don't know your product you have no business at a show selling it. IMHO
PEACE! This is the first day of the rest of your life.
I'm a cherrypicker, and as a cherrypicker, you learn that when you are going to buy a coin you almost never comment on the coin itself. It is fine to talk to the dealer, but never about the coin. If the dealer sees that you are buying the coin because of a die variety, the dealer will not sell me the coin. The reason why I buy coins is because I cherrypick them and sell them on ebay. If the dealers learn that I do that with the coins, they would never sell to me.
I can't seem to find sympathy for the OP... when buying a coin, never say anything that might make the dealer belief that the coin is worth more than what he is selling it to you for.
Cherrypicking vams is one thing, many dealers do not take the time to educate themselves or comb through their inventory. It is a business decision they make.
Doing pricing research during checkout is bad ethics. It is basically advertising one price and then changing that price during the sale.
Ethics is a main reason this hobby is suffering today. I would not recommend any of my friends get into colecting unless they invest large amounts of time for education.
<< <i>Telling someone that they are selling you something for $1,700 that is worth $6,900 (your numbers) is gloating. I'm sure you would see it differently if the tables were turned. >>
That was my first thought as well..
If you are going to make about $5,000 profit off of him, and said it right in front of him I don't imagine he would be very happy.
If he does not want to sell you the coin, move on.
<< <i>C'mon you can't dump on the dealer - you should have kept your mouth shut.
It doesn't matter if you are the buyer or seller. If either starts to gloat over the deal - before the deal is done - then he is an idiot.
You have absolutely no beef. How naive. >>
Gotta agree with that one. Lower end coins but bought 2001 Silver Proof set the other day off a dealer. I knew the set was way under-valued. He was an older gentleman and he seemed nice enough. His son was watching the whole thing with this "look" in his eyes. Like what are you doing? The older gentleman told the younger man to ring it up.
I kept my mouth shut, quietly paid, not so much as small talk. Then as I got out the door bust into a smile.
Thats commerce. Someone's usually loosing or gaining on any buy. Maybe we both got lucky and he had got it at a dirt cheap price from someone else. But either way it was my day to be on top is the way I see it.
I'll see your bunny with a pancake on his head and raise you a Siamese cat with a miniature pumpkin on his head.
You wouldn't believe how long it took to get him to sit still for this.
If you pick up a Sac and notice it's a Cheerios, you can't expect to pay $1 for the coin, if you just said, 'this Sac is a Cherrios Sac worth $6000 !!'
You think the dealer is going to still sell it to you for $1 ??
Just because he's a dealer, don't expect them to know anything.
Bottom line, if a dealer thinks he is being cherrypicked, he will kill the deal, even if he has no clue. Just keep you mouth shut, and don't take a picture of the coin with your cell phone until you have that coin in your hot hands!!
This reminds me a little bit of something that happened to me years ago. The dealer was a guy that sold mostly coins but had some various other antiques and trinkets too. I was about 11 or 12 and was going through a little cup of loose coins, $12 apeice, and found a EF (or so, it's been a long time) bust half dime. I handed it to him and he said "Sorry, that one's $100." I guess it could've been in there by mistake, but I was disappointed not to get it.
<< <i>Been doing this long enough to have had a few similar experiences. This is especially the ase for cherrypickers, known ones particularly. They think you must see something that makes the coin worth 10X the asking price or something on every coin to want to get a price on. I see it as part of the game. You feel the sting at first but avoiding the dealer in the future limits the coins you might buy. Best, IMHO, to just get over it and try not to talk too much.
Someone else we all know on here has a related experience involving a camera phone in a coin shop. >>
I'm a cherrypicker, and there is a dealer at the shows here that will not sell to me. There was never any issue, really, he just asked one day if I was looking for varieties and I told him yes. He refused to sell me the coins I'd picked out and asked me to leave his table. I'm fine with it- I wave 'hello' to him on my way to spend my money at another table. As for changing the price if a buyer acts excited about the coin- that's despicable, in my book, and it's bad business...spend your money elsewhere.
--Christian
You Suck! Awarded 6/2008- 1901-O Micro O Morgan, 8/2008- 1878 VAM-123 Morgan, 9/2022 1888-O VAM-1B3 H8 Morgan | Senior Regional Representative- ANACS Coin Grading. Posted opinions on coins are my own, and are not an official ANACS opinion.
<< <i>"a deal is a deal --and in MHO this was a done deal when he quoted you the price and the money was on the table " >>
The buyer was counting the money and could just as easily said " well I have the money but Ill think on it awhile." A deal is not a deal until the items change hands. Ethically the dealer stinks but is within his rights. You learned a lesson and education costs. In this case it was just "missed opportunity"
Are you that confident it would cross, if so you must have been excited (unless you're rich). You knew there was a huge value difference and you should have known not to say anything that could have queered the deal until the coin was in your pocket. In the meantime I would have been very careful not to let him see how hard my heart was beating. You seemed to take finding it so matter of fact I'm frankly surprised.
If I saw $5000 laying on the street I would not be shouting about it until it was in my pocket.
Next time try: " It's not as nice as I wanted but I got to get home early today."
<< <i>"a deal is a deal --and in MHO this was a done deal when he quoted you the price and the money was on the table " >>
The buyer was counting the money and could just as easily said " well I have the money but Ill think on it awhile." A deal is not a deal until the items change hands. Ethically the dealer stinks but is within his rights. You learned a lesson and education costs. In this case it was just "missed opportunity"
Are you that confident it would cross, if so you must have been excited (unless you're rich). You knew there was a huge value difference and you should have known not to say anything that could have queered the deal until the coin was in your pocket. In the meantime I would have been very careful not to let him see how hard my heart was beating. You seemed to take finding it so matter of fact I'm frankly surprised.
If I saw $5000 laying on the street I would not be shouting about it until it was in my pocket.
Next time try: " It's not as nice as I wanted but I got to get home early today." >>
I disagree. It's a done deal as soon as one offers and another accepts. The coin may not change hands until the money does but the deal is done when both paties agree to term. Nothing should be added nor subtracted by either party. Any special considerations like delivery or packaging should be stated beforehand. Neither party can back out except by mutual consent.
I have noticed alot of great comments and replies. The story is a true story as some think not. As to clarify some things I did accept the offer before I reached to pay the dealer. I DID NOT BOAST about any prices nor if it will upgrade. The coin population in PCGS is 4/0 in PR65CAM and NGC population was 5/3 in the same grade. This coin was NGC PR66CAM. My THOUGHT was hoping to at least crossing it to a 65cam and if it did go 66cam, great. My quote was that "I need this for my registry set but I need to cross it". This is probally the mistake on my part as to where he started to look for prices and pops in the PCGS guide. I don't really know where he got his price of $6900 but there is not a 66cam in PCGS. I guess he looked at similar grades in that series and thought was worth that much. His quote was "Its worth $6900 in a PCGS slab". I would have probally tried to offer him $1800, but I really did not want to trade after that. I still can't mention the coin or dealer because I am still looking for this particular coin. I made the mistake once, I really don't want to twice.
<< <i>I have noticed alot of great comments and replies. The story is a true story as some think not. As to clarify some things I did accept the offer before I reached to pay the dealer. I DID NOT BOAST about any prices nor if it will upgrade. The coin population in PCGS is 4/0 in PR65CAM and NGC population was 5/3 in the same grade. This coin was NGC PR66CAM. My THOUGHT was hoping to at least crossing it to a 65cam and if it did go 66cam, great. My quote was that "I need this for my registry set but I need to cross it". This is probally the mistake on my part as to where he started to look for prices and pops in the PCGS guide. I don't really know where he got his price of $6900 but there is not a 66cam in PCGS. I guess he looked at similar grades in that series and thought was worth that much. His quote was "Its worth $6900 in a PCGS slab". I would have probally tried to offer him $1800, but I really did not want to trade after that. I still can't mention the coin or dealer because I am still looking for this particular coin. I made the mistake once, I really don't want to twice. >>
Thank you for the clarification. Once you accepted the price, he should have sold it to you at that price. Period. TD
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
Thanks.. Makes sense now. The dealer thinks he has something and will hold onto it until he finds someone else who agrees. Maybe he'll wait a decade or two!
<< <i>so you tried to rip someone off and it failed. the dealer backed out of an agreement.
you both suck.
but the dealer is the lesser of two evils.
both of your actions are why i really don't like collecting much anymore. too many dishonest people in this hobby. >>
Did not try to rip nobody off. If I ask you a price on something you have displayed at a show and you gave me a price. Would you honor your deal? Or would you back out at the last second?
<< <i>so you tried to rip someone off and it failed. the dealer backed out of an agreement.
you both suck.
but the dealer is the lesser of two evils.
both of your actions are why i really don't like collecting much anymore. too many dishonest people in this hobby. >>
Did not try to rip nobody off. If I ask you a price on something you have displayed at a show and you gave me a price. Would you honor your deal? Or would you back out at the last second? >>
That is comparable to a dealer that rips off an old lady selling her husbands coin collection.
I am sure that the lady had some idea that old, rare coins are valuable, but do not know the exact value.
The dealer sees that the old lady has a pile of 18th century Gold Eagles, they are worth say $10,000 each. The old lady thinks $1,000 a piece is fair for old gold coins and says that out of ignorance.
You tried to buy a coin at an unfairly low price, you were making a profit off of the ignorance of another.
Any other dealer would say 'I was just paying her what she asked!', knowing full tell they were ripping her off.
<< <i>so you tried to rip someone off and it failed. the dealer backed out of an agreement.
you both suck.
but the dealer is the lesser of two evils.
both of your actions are why i really don't like collecting much anymore. too many dishonest people in this hobby. >>
Did not try to rip nobody off. If I ask you a price on something you have displayed at a show and you gave me a price. Would you honor your deal? Or would you back out at the last second? >>
That is comparable to a dealer that rips off an old lady selling her husbands coin collection.
I am sure that the lady had some idea that old, rare coins are valuable, but do not know the exact value.
The dealer sees that the old lady has a pile of 18th century Gold Eagles, they are worth say $10,000 each. The old lady thinks $1,000 a piece is fair for old gold coins and says that out of ignorance.
You tried to buy a coin at an unfairly low price, you were making a profit off of the ignorance of another.
Any other dealer would say 'I was just paying her what she asked!', knowing full tell they were ripping her off. >>
That's baloney. If the story is as stated, the collector asked a dealer for the price of a coin, agreed to the price, and the dealer reneged. This has nothing to do with old widows, rip-offs, and taking unfair advantage. In this scenario, the dealer is a professional (or so he claims) and has the responsibility to know how much his inventory is worth. The old widow is clueless and has no responsibility whatsoever.
<< <i>I have noticed alot of great comments and replies. The story is a true story as some think not. As to clarify some things I did accept the offer before I reached to pay the dealer. I DID NOT BOAST about any prices nor if it will upgrade. The coin population in PCGS is 4/0 in PR65CAM and NGC population was 5/3 in the same grade. This coin was NGC PR66CAM. My THOUGHT was hoping to at least crossing it to a 65cam and if it did go 66cam, great. My quote was that "I need this for my registry set but I need to cross it". This is probally the mistake on my part as to where he started to look for prices and pops in the PCGS guide. I don't really know where he got his price of $6900 but there is not a 66cam in PCGS. I guess he looked at similar grades in that series and thought was worth that much. His quote was "Its worth $6900 in a PCGS slab". I would have probally tried to offer him $1800, but I really did not want to trade after that. I still can't mention the coin or dealer because I am still looking for this particular coin. I made the mistake once, I really don't want to twice. >>
If those pops are accurate, the odds of it crossing at 66cam to PCGS are probably about 3% if sent in raw, much less than 1% if sent in the NGC holder. Dealer just got cold feet, when the reality is that the coin probably isn't going to cross at that grade before the next ice age.
Let me add there are plenty of coins where a PCGS graded coin is worth 3x to 10x more because of the pops. The coins are mostly top pop moderns, but there are isolated cases in other series as well, it isn't just a modern pricing thing. As in this story, most of the NGC coins have little chance of crossing at the same grade to PCGS. For coins that have been out for a while, the pops tell the tale of the tape. Some folks try to cross the coins, most come up snake eyes when they roll the dice on the top pops.
It seems dealers are not experts in every coin they sell. You, the collector educated him that the coin may cross to a PCGS holder hence he felt he should try it himself. Chances are that the dealer did not get the coin to cross and may reconsider your offer. If you can find it in you to have thick skin just contact the dealer and find out if he was successful in the cross-over effort. If not, offer him $100 less than you did at the show..... bide your time, get the coin crossed over and if you want revenge just throw your success in his face. Best not to get emotional in these circumstances when you only have yourself to blame for giving him the cross-over idea. In my opinion there is nothing unethical in not telling the dealer about the cross-over opportunity, you were prepared to pay him for his limited knowledge. dr
Maybe I'm missing something, but I got the impression that the OP merely commented (albeit FOOLISHLY), the he needed to cross it for his registry set....... I would take that to imply that the buyer (the OP) needed to change the plastic so that it would be accepted, not that he was trying to make a "SCORE"...... He probably would have expected it to drop a point or more (he CERTAINLY would have at least entertained the possibilty), if and when it did cross.....
Realistically however, the PCGS value a point lower might have been about what the dealer was asking for the coin in NGC plastic...... It's still the SAME coin..... Just a different interpretation of the grade.....
Based on the scenario as explained, I would find the dealer at fault........
<< <i>Maybe I'm missing something, but I got the impression that the OP merely commented (albeit FOOLISHLY), the he needed to cross it for his registry set....... I would take that to imply that the buyer (the OP) needed to change the plastic so that it would be accepted, not that he was trying to make a "SCORE"...... He probably would have expected it to drop a point or more (he CERTAINLY would have at least entertained the possibilty), if and when it did cross.....
Realistically however, the PCGS value a point lower might have been about what the dealer was asking for the coin in NGC plastic...... It's still the SAME coin..... Just a different interpretation of the grade.....
Based on the scenario as explained, I would find the dealer at fault........ >>
You are right. The coin now list for $1,750 in the 65CAM. My intention was to find a PCGS 65cam, but found a nice NGC66CAM. If it would have crossed to 65 I would have been happy. I would have taken the chance. I guess the dealer wanted to take a better chance and lose a sell, customer and a possible severe downgrade.
<< <i>Maybe I'm missing something, but I got the impression that the OP merely commented (albeit FOOLISHLY), the he needed to cross it for his registry set....... I would take that to imply that the buyer (the OP) needed to change the plastic so that it would be accepted, not that he was trying to make a "SCORE"...... He probably would have expected it to drop a point or more (he CERTAINLY would have at least entertained the possibilty), if and when it did cross.....
Realistically however, the PCGS value a point lower might have been about what the dealer was asking for the coin in NGC plastic...... It's still the SAME coin..... Just a different interpretation of the grade.....
Based on the scenario as explained, I would find the dealer at fault........ >>
You are right. The coin now list for $1,750 in the 65CAM. My intention was to find a PCGS 65cam, but found a nice NGC66CAM. If it would have crossed to 65 I would have been happy. I would have taken the chance. I guess the dealer wanted to take a better chance and lose a sell, customer and a possible severe downgrade. >>
That was what I thought....
It boils down to this:
You were buying a COIN, the dealer was selling PLASTIC.....
I believe the dealer had an obligation to finish the sale....he was obligated until you said no, unless it was a misquote something like reading his code 1700 instead of 17000,,,,or looking up an 85-0 instead of an 85-cc
Your story sounds like he quoted the right price for this coin
he got cold feet on your observation that it might cross, not thinking you would have to downcross.......
ironically the coin probalby would not have crossed to 66 cam and at 65 cam you would have been getting only fair value anyway
You were not stealing the coin or evening getting a rip unless by some longshot it crossed to 66...........and that would not be wrong either
this dealer has no confidence and what he did was unethical, I have no idea if it was illegal, but your right to avoid him, and smart not to say who it is. Only would cause you trouble, no gain to be had.
Dealers get customers who back out on deals all the time sometimes they back out when selling after they have given you a price, sometimes they back out on purchases after they say yes. I let customers get away with that once. I eat the deal but we don`t have any more deals because I loose trust. this business is based on trust.
I`ve had them come back the next day at a show and say they don`t want it
I even once had a dealer buy a coin at a show and didn`t pick it up right away...later when I went to deliver, he said he found a cheaper one.........nice huh?
in this business all these things are wrong and reflect badly on those that do them. you were wronged......but its unlikely you or the dealer were going to get an extra 5k for that coin
in some cases as mentioned above backing out is okay
Once at the Sandiego Mid year ANA a well know dealers female (non coin trained) assistant sold a 5 indian pcgs ms 65 for 2000. Bid was 20k at the time. She read the code wrong. The buyer knew it. He got out 2000 cash and slinked away before anybody came back to the table that knew the price was wrong. When she reported the sale, poop hit the fan, than man was tracked down from a description. The law said that since he looked at his grey sheet and knew it was a mistake the dealer had the right to get the coin back which he did. had the buyer been just as unaware as the seller it would have been okay by California law......silly laws...........
another thing that happens quite too often is a typo in CW in my ads. Sometimes honest customers will bring it to our attention. Other times dishonest people will call and try to order it, knowing it is a mistake. When I tell them thats a typo and surely they relaized it, they go well I wasn`t sure and more BS and then hang up.
Its no different than stealing in that case, your only paying for 10% stealing 90%
but in your case , like the other examples when dealers got cold feet, or when collectors get cold feet, its simply unethical and maybe illegal but no one takes it to court.....
your right to avoid this guy, whether he has deals or not. Life is too short...........
I don't know if anyone has chimed in on the legal aspect. I'm not a lawyer, but my understanding of contract law is that if he offered a price and the buyer accepted the price, at that moment they have a legal contract because there was a "meeting of the minds." Granted, it is difficult to enforce as it is not written, but it is a contract nonetheless.
Comments
I think the missing element in the OP may be that the dealer misquoted on the coin. If that is the case, what would you do in the situation say, if it was you selling a coin and mistakenly priced a 1885-CC dollar as a 1885-O? (Or a MS-66 as a MS65.) Say, "sorry, but I can't sell it" or "OK, steal it from me".
I was kidding about the nutcrackers
Kind of , but not really.
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
Not often a quick learner, I made a similar mistake on a gem slightly better date MS Lib nickel that I priced at 10% over my cost and had owned for a few months. Again, I had forgotten that I had cherried this for common date price on ebay since it was in NGC plastic. It was worth another 25% more. The collector, someone I've chatted with for 20 years at shows, gave me an out, but I declined. Laziness is not an excuse. But now smoked twice, I finally learned the lesson....I hope.
Stealing in unacceptable. But if you're stupid - take your lumps.
roadrunner
<< <i>Dealer remains anonymous? A meaningless thread. >>
All in all
San Diego, CA
<< <i>
<< <i>Dealer remains anonymous? A meaningless thread. >>
All in all
I disagree. I've read some fabulous posts from some brilliant people in this thread.
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
Russ, NCNE
Sir I am not a dealer, however I have bought and sold a few coins and I will tell you that my reputation alone would have made me sell the coin for the quoted price. We all make mistakes and on one occasion I misquoted a coin to a man who quickly pointed out that he felt I had made a mistake. I guess its all in two words--Ethics or Greed.
A Spade is a Spade.
We all want mo Money.
And everybody wanna go to Heaven,
but nobody wanna Die !!
Ol' Hank !!!
On the first day of a 2 day coin show, I sealed a deal with a coin dealer for a purchase of $1400.00. We shook hands and agreed on the sale. Next morning at the show, the dealer apparaently changed his mind and would not sell it to me. He said it could be one grade higher and now he was asking $2100.00 for it. It's been six months now, and he still has the coin and is still asking $2100.00 for it. Go figure.... Oh by the way, on that second day, I find an identical coin, same grade with another dealer and I only paid $1000.00. I went over to the first dealer and told him 'thank-you for breaking your word, as I found the same coin for $1000.00" Revenge is sweet.
"“Those who sacrifice liberty for security/safety deserve neither.“(Benjamin Franklin)
"I only golf on days that end in 'Y'" (DE59)
<< <i>Dealer remains anonymous? A meaningless thread. >>
<< <i>This is an interesting thread, I find it amazing that (based on their replies) a couple dealers on this thread have obvious reading and/or comprehension problems. >>
Check out my current listings: https://ebay.com/sch/khunt/m.html?_ipg=200&_sop=12&_rdc=1
Next thing I know, he asks for the coin back scratches out the $1,000 and replaces it with a $1,500.
Yeah, at that point I walk. He had the coin in his inventory for over a year. I did manage to find the coin in the same grade for $1,000. Later, I stopped by long enough to tell him thanks for the lesson and that I found a coin I liked better for a better price.
<< <i>If you took the coin to a dealer to sell, and said you would accept her $1700 offer, then before the money was exchanged, she looked it up and said "hey, this is worth $6900"
WHAT WOULD YOU DO? >>
The moron should have done his home work before he took the coin to a show and priced it out. If you don't know your product you have no business at a show selling it. IMHO
Fred, Las Vegas, NV
I'm a cherrypicker, and as a cherrypicker, you learn that when you are going to buy a coin you almost never comment on the coin itself. It is fine to talk to the dealer, but never about the coin. If the dealer sees that you are buying the coin because of a die variety, the dealer will not sell me the coin. The reason why I buy coins is because I cherrypick them and sell them on ebay. If the dealers learn that I do that with the coins, they would never sell to me.
I can't seem to find sympathy for the OP... when buying a coin, never say anything that might make the dealer belief that the coin is worth more than what he is selling it to you for.
Cherrypicking vams is one thing, many dealers do not take the time to educate themselves or comb through their inventory. It is a business decision they make.
Doing pricing research during checkout is bad ethics. It is basically advertising one price and then changing that price during the sale.
Ethics is a main reason this hobby is suffering today. I would not recommend any of my friends get into colecting unless they invest large amounts of time for education.
<< <i>Telling someone that they are selling you something for $1,700 that is worth $6,900 (your numbers) is gloating. I'm sure you would see it differently if the tables were turned. >>
That was my first thought as well..
If you are going to make about $5,000 profit off of him, and said it right in front of him I don't imagine he would be very happy.
If he does not want to sell you the coin, move on.
- Just my two cents -
<< <i>C'mon you can't dump on the dealer - you should have kept your mouth shut.
It doesn't matter if you are the buyer or seller. If either starts to gloat over the deal - before the deal is done - then he is an idiot.
You have absolutely no beef. How naive. >>
Gotta agree with that one. Lower end coins but bought 2001 Silver Proof set the other day off a dealer. I knew the set was way under-valued. He was an older gentleman and he seemed nice enough. His son was watching the whole thing with this "look" in his eyes. Like what are you doing? The older gentleman told the younger man to ring it up.
I kept my mouth shut, quietly paid, not so much as small talk. Then as I got out the door bust into a smile.
Thats commerce. Someone's usually loosing or gaining on any buy. Maybe we both got lucky and he had got it at a dirt cheap price from someone else. But either way it was my day to be on top is the way I see it.
You wouldn't believe how long it took to get him to sit still for this.
Gotta agree with keeping your mouth shut.
If you pick up a Sac and notice it's a Cheerios, you can't expect to pay $1 for the coin, if you just said, 'this Sac is a Cherrios Sac worth $6000 !!'
You think the dealer is going to still sell it to you for $1 ??
Just because he's a dealer, don't expect them to know anything.
<< <i>This STORY is like swiss cheese
full of holes and
not good for anyones health.
Plain n simple- BS.
Stae the coin in question and the alleged dealer- or personally I think the OP is a BS artist. >>
I agree. Without some sort of backing up of this information, it's just another old wive's tale...
1/2 Cents
U.S. Revenue Stamps
<< <i>and don't take a picture of the coin with your cell phone until you have that coin in your hot hands!! >>
Poor Marty.
Russ, NCNE
<< <i>Been doing this long enough to have had a few similar experiences. This is especially the ase for cherrypickers, known ones particularly. They think you must see something that makes the coin worth 10X the asking price or something on every coin to want to get a price on. I see it as part of the game. You feel the sting at first but avoiding the dealer in the future limits the coins you might buy. Best, IMHO, to just get over it and try not to talk too much.
Someone else we all know on here has a related experience involving a camera phone in a coin shop. >>
I'm a cherrypicker, and there is a dealer at the shows here that will not sell to me. There was never any issue, really, he just asked one day if I was looking for varieties and I told him yes. He refused to sell me the coins I'd picked out and asked me to leave his table. I'm fine with it- I wave 'hello' to him on my way to spend my money at another table. As for changing the price if a buyer acts excited about the coin- that's despicable, in my book, and it's bad business...spend your money elsewhere.
--Christian
<< <i>"a deal is a deal --and in MHO this was a done deal when he quoted you the price and the money was on the table " >>
The buyer was counting the money and could just as easily said " well I have the money but Ill think on it awhile." A deal is not a deal until the items change hands. Ethically the dealer stinks but is within his rights. You learned a lesson and education costs. In this case it was just "missed opportunity"
Are you that confident it would cross, if so you must have been excited (unless you're rich). You knew there was a huge value difference and you should have known not to say anything that could have queered the deal until the coin was in your pocket. In the meantime I would have been very careful not to let him see how hard my heart was beating. You seemed to take finding it so matter of fact I'm frankly surprised.
If I saw $5000 laying on the street I would not be shouting about it until it was in my pocket.
Next time try:
" It's not as nice as I wanted but I got to get home early today."
.....because I'm going to Disneyland........whoo...whoo!
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
<< <i>
<< <i>"a deal is a deal --and in MHO this was a done deal when he quoted you the price and the money was on the table " >>
The buyer was counting the money and could just as easily said " well I have the money but Ill think on it awhile." A deal is not a deal until the items change hands. Ethically the dealer stinks but is within his rights. You learned a lesson and education costs. In this case it was just "missed opportunity"
Are you that confident it would cross, if so you must have been excited (unless you're rich). You knew there was a huge value difference and you should have known not to say anything that could have queered the deal until the coin was in your pocket. In the meantime I would have been very careful not to let him see how hard my heart was beating. You seemed to take finding it so matter of fact I'm frankly surprised.
If I saw $5000 laying on the street I would not be shouting about it until it was in my pocket.
Next time try:
" It's not as nice as I wanted but I got to get home early today." >>
I disagree. It's a done deal as soon as one offers and another accepts. The coin
may not change hands until the money does but the deal is done when both paties
agree to term. Nothing should be added nor subtracted by either party. Any special
considerations like delivery or packaging should be stated beforehand. Neither party
can back out except by mutual consent.
However, I think this unfortunate occurance seems to offer great insight for all.
Thanks for sharing.
WTB: Barber Quarters XF
<< <i>Neither party can back out except by mutual consent. >>
Who has the coin and who has the money??...........end of story.
<< <i>I have noticed alot of great comments and replies. The story is a true story as some think not. As to clarify some things I did accept the offer before I reached to pay the dealer. I DID NOT BOAST about any prices nor if it will upgrade. The coin population in PCGS is 4/0 in PR65CAM and NGC population was 5/3 in the same grade. This coin was NGC PR66CAM. My THOUGHT was hoping to at least crossing it to a 65cam and if it did go 66cam, great. My quote was that "I need this for my registry set but I need to cross it". This is probally the mistake on my part as to where he started to look for prices and pops in the PCGS guide. I don't really know where he got his price of $6900 but there is not a 66cam in PCGS. I guess he looked at similar grades in that series and thought was worth that much. His quote was "Its worth $6900 in a PCGS slab". I would have probally tried to offer him $1800, but I really did not want to trade after that. I still can't mention the coin or dealer because I am still looking for this particular coin. I made the mistake once, I really don't want to twice. >>
Thank you for the clarification.
Once you accepted the price, he should have sold it to you at that price. Period.
TD
the dealer backed out of an agreement.
you both suck.
but the dealer is the lesser of two evils.
both of your actions are why i really don't like collecting much anymore.
too many dishonest people in this hobby.
hi, i'm tom.
i do not doctor coins like some who post in here.
<< <i>so you tried to rip someone off and it failed.
the dealer backed out of an agreement.
you both suck.
but the dealer is the lesser of two evils.
both of your actions are why i really don't like collecting much anymore.
too many dishonest people in this hobby. >>
Did not try to rip nobody off. If I ask you a price on something you have displayed at a show and you gave me a price. Would you honor your deal? Or would you back out at the last second?
<< <i>
<< <i>so you tried to rip someone off and it failed.
the dealer backed out of an agreement.
you both suck.
but the dealer is the lesser of two evils.
both of your actions are why i really don't like collecting much anymore.
too many dishonest people in this hobby. >>
Did not try to rip nobody off. If I ask you a price on something you have displayed at a show and you gave me a price. Would you honor your deal? Or would you back out at the last second?
That is comparable to a dealer that rips off an old lady selling her husbands coin collection.
I am sure that the lady had some idea that old, rare coins are valuable, but do not know the exact value.
The dealer sees that the old lady has a pile of 18th century Gold Eagles, they are worth say $10,000 each. The old lady thinks $1,000 a piece is fair for old gold coins and says that out of ignorance.
You tried to buy a coin at an unfairly low price, you were making a profit off of the ignorance of another.
Any other dealer would say 'I was just paying her what she asked!', knowing full tell they were ripping her off.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>so you tried to rip someone off and it failed.
the dealer backed out of an agreement.
you both suck.
but the dealer is the lesser of two evils.
both of your actions are why i really don't like collecting much anymore.
too many dishonest people in this hobby. >>
Did not try to rip nobody off. If I ask you a price on something you have displayed at a show and you gave me a price. Would you honor your deal? Or would you back out at the last second?
That is comparable to a dealer that rips off an old lady selling her husbands coin collection.
I am sure that the lady had some idea that old, rare coins are valuable, but do not know the exact value.
The dealer sees that the old lady has a pile of 18th century Gold Eagles, they are worth say $10,000 each. The old lady thinks $1,000 a piece is fair for old gold coins and says that out of ignorance.
You tried to buy a coin at an unfairly low price, you were making a profit off of the ignorance of another.
Any other dealer would say 'I was just paying her what she asked!', knowing full tell they were ripping her off. >>
That's baloney. If the story is as stated, the collector asked a dealer for the price of a coin, agreed to the price, and the dealer reneged. This has nothing to do with old widows, rip-offs, and taking unfair advantage. In this scenario, the dealer is a professional (or so he claims) and has the responsibility to know how much his inventory is worth. The old widow is clueless and has no responsibility whatsoever.
<< <i>I have noticed alot of great comments and replies. The story is a true story as some think not. As to clarify some things I did accept the offer before I reached to pay the dealer. I DID NOT BOAST about any prices nor if it will upgrade. The coin population in PCGS is 4/0 in PR65CAM and NGC population was 5/3 in the same grade. This coin was NGC PR66CAM. My THOUGHT was hoping to at least crossing it to a 65cam and if it did go 66cam, great. My quote was that "I need this for my registry set but I need to cross it". This is probally the mistake on my part as to where he started to look for prices and pops in the PCGS guide. I don't really know where he got his price of $6900 but there is not a 66cam in PCGS. I guess he looked at similar grades in that series and thought was worth that much. His quote was "Its worth $6900 in a PCGS slab". I would have probally tried to offer him $1800, but I really did not want to trade after that. I still can't mention the coin or dealer because I am still looking for this particular coin. I made the mistake once, I really don't want to twice. >>
If those pops are accurate, the odds of it crossing at 66cam to PCGS are probably about 3% if sent in raw, much less than 1% if sent in the NGC holder. Dealer just got cold feet, when the reality is that the coin probably isn't going to cross at that grade before the next ice age.
Realistically however, the PCGS value a point lower might have been about what the dealer was asking for the coin in NGC plastic...... It's still the SAME coin..... Just a different interpretation of the grade.....
Based on the scenario as explained, I would find the dealer at fault........
<< <i>Maybe I'm missing something, but I got the impression that the OP merely commented (albeit FOOLISHLY), the he needed to cross it for his registry set....... I would take that to imply that the buyer (the OP) needed to change the plastic so that it would be accepted, not that he was trying to make a "SCORE"...... He probably would have expected it to drop a point or more (he CERTAINLY would have at least entertained the possibilty), if and when it did cross.....
Realistically however, the PCGS value a point lower might have been about what the dealer was asking for the coin in NGC plastic...... It's still the SAME coin..... Just a different interpretation of the grade.....
Based on the scenario as explained, I would find the dealer at fault........ >>
You are right. The coin now list for $1,750 in the 65CAM. My intention was to find a PCGS 65cam, but found a nice NGC66CAM. If it would have crossed to 65 I would have been happy. I would have taken the chance. I guess the dealer wanted to take a better chance and lose a sell, customer and a possible severe downgrade.
<< <i>
<< <i>Maybe I'm missing something, but I got the impression that the OP merely commented (albeit FOOLISHLY), the he needed to cross it for his registry set....... I would take that to imply that the buyer (the OP) needed to change the plastic so that it would be accepted, not that he was trying to make a "SCORE"...... He probably would have expected it to drop a point or more (he CERTAINLY would have at least entertained the possibilty), if and when it did cross.....
Realistically however, the PCGS value a point lower might have been about what the dealer was asking for the coin in NGC plastic...... It's still the SAME coin..... Just a different interpretation of the grade.....
Based on the scenario as explained, I would find the dealer at fault........ >>
You are right. The coin now list for $1,750 in the 65CAM. My intention was to find a PCGS 65cam, but found a nice NGC66CAM. If it would have crossed to 65 I would have been happy. I would have taken the chance. I guess the dealer wanted to take a better chance and lose a sell, customer and a possible severe downgrade.
That was what I thought....
It boils down to this:
You were buying a COIN, the dealer was selling PLASTIC.....
I believe your story is true
I believe the dealer had an obligation to finish the sale....he was obligated until you said no, unless it was a misquote something like reading his code 1700 instead of 17000,,,,or looking up an 85-0 instead of an 85-cc
Your story sounds like he quoted the right price for this coin
he got cold feet on your observation that it might cross, not thinking you would have to downcross.......
ironically the coin probalby would not have crossed to 66 cam and at 65 cam you would have been getting only fair value anyway
You were not stealing the coin or evening getting a rip unless by some longshot it crossed to 66...........and that would not be wrong either
this dealer has no confidence and what he did was unethical, I have no idea if it was illegal, but your right to avoid him, and smart not to say who it is. Only would cause you trouble, no gain to be had.
Dealers get customers who back out on deals all the time
sometimes they back out when selling after they have given you a price, sometimes they back out on purchases after they say yes. I let customers get away with that once. I eat the deal but we don`t have any more deals because I loose trust. this business is based on trust.
I`ve had them come back the next day at a show and say they don`t want it
I even once had a dealer buy a coin at a show and didn`t pick it up right away...later when I went to deliver, he said he found a cheaper one.........nice huh?
in this business all these things are wrong and reflect badly on those that do them. you were wronged......but its unlikely you or the dealer were going to get an extra 5k for that coin
in some cases as mentioned above backing out is okay
Once at the Sandiego Mid year ANA a well know dealers female (non coin trained) assistant sold a 5 indian pcgs ms 65 for 2000. Bid was 20k at the time. She read the code wrong. The buyer knew it. He got out 2000 cash and slinked away before anybody came back to the table that knew the price was wrong. When she reported the sale, poop hit the fan, than man was tracked down from a description. The law said that since he looked at his grey sheet and knew it was a mistake the dealer had the right to get the coin back which he did.
had the buyer been just as unaware as the seller it would have been okay by California law......silly laws...........
another thing that happens quite too often is a typo in CW in my ads. Sometimes honest customers will bring it to our attention.
Other times dishonest people will call and try to order it, knowing it is a mistake. When I tell them thats a typo and surely they relaized it, they go well I wasn`t sure and more BS and then hang up.
Its no different than stealing in that case, your only paying for 10% stealing 90%
but in your case , like the other examples when dealers got cold feet, or when collectors get cold feet, its simply unethical and maybe illegal but no one takes it to court.....
your right to avoid this guy, whether he has deals or not. Life is too short...........
Harry
Full Time Coin Dealer
since 1980.
Harry Laibstain Rare Coins