<< <i>Pardon my ignorance but.... what's the big deal if you were "transferring from NGC to PCGS for my registry set"? Why did that end the transaction?
Also, if he wanted $1700 and you were willing to pay $1700... why would he turn his back on his own price? Did mentioning your registry set make him think he had higher grade coins and therefore more valuable? >>
Like a dealer does not know his stuff? $1700 means he will make a tidy profit and then he balks?
Registry Smegistry..........I smell some shinanigans going on here.
If the dealer thought it would cross why didn't he do it himself?
I think only one word can describe this whole situation... Lame!!! Let me make sure I have this straight... The buyer inquires about a coin, the dealer quotes his/her price, the buyer accepts, the buyer mentions he wants to see if it crosses for his registry set, then the dealer scoops the coin back and says no sale. As far as I'm concerned, it would do the collecting community a favor to mention who the dealer is. What a joke! -On a side note: What coin is it that goes from $1700 in NGC plastic to $6900 in PCGS plastic???
<< <i>I think only one word can describe this whole situation... Lame!!! Let me make sure I have this straight... The buyer inquires about a coin, the dealer quotes his/her price, the buyer accepts, the buyer mentions he wants to see if it crosses for his registry set, then the dealer scoops the coin back and says no sale. As far as I'm concerned, it would do the collecting community a favor to mention who the dealer is. What a joke! -On a side note: What coin is it that goes from $1700 in NGC plastic to $6900 in PCGS plastic??? >>
Do you smell that Dizzy? Sniff, sniff
I think you are reading my mind.
Something really stinks and for some reason it smells like BS.
Please remember in my first statement I will not mention the dealer, show or coin. I would be going back on my "word". Maybe the dealer and I both learned something from this. I don't wish nothing bad for him. I am just seeing a lot of bad business by people and Coin shows used to be educational for all and FUN. It seems that we might be losing some of this by dealers not having enough knowledge of collecting. Some might be losing the total grasp why people actually come to coin shows. BUT their is still some good shows and dealers out their on the floors. >>
I have had no such experiences at coin shows, in fact no matter what I have mentioned to a dealer........ the price seems to go down.
What's the big deal about telling all what the coin in question is?
<< <i>Coin shows used to be educational for all and FUN.
somehow I am reminded of an old saying ..... which I think was about boys, bb guns, and frogs...
"while the boys shoot the frogs in fun, the frogs die in ernest".
Don't ever forget that while it may be fun to collect coins, for the dealer whose living depends on selling coins it is much more serious.
I'm not making excuses for the dealer in question. Just pointing out the obvious. >>
I am about as pro-dealer as anyone on this forum (and have been soundly abused for it in the past), but I have a problem with this on several levels. First, the unnecessary death of a frog, to me, is far more serious, than whether a coin dealer makes $1000 or $5000 on a coin.
Second, for as long as I can remember, coin dealers have been trying to depict themselves as professionals and some dealers are, indeed, very trustworthy and professional. The majority, however, are probably like the guy described in the OP, and act as unprofessionally as the sleaziest huckster, con-artist, or salesman. As a collector, attending a coin show, I am there to have fun and be educated. If the dealers take the fun and education out of it, I stop going, and soon I stop buying coins. Get a few more like me and a few more yet, and soon we have less money coming into the coin market/hobby/industrial complex, maybe some money coming out of it, and fewer dealers putting food on the table.
I think it behooves dealers to not forget who butters their bread: not PCGS, not Heritage, not the brick-and-mortar shop that sells you stuff wholesale, but ultimately the collector, who toils at his own job, whose wife foregoes a Wolf oven ( ) , whose children wear second-hand clothes, so that the poor slob can buy these trinkets he enjoys.
<< <i>The way the story was told I can't see any defense for the dealer. Once he quotes a price and it is accepted, the trasfer of funds is a formality, IMHO.
We all know how the crossing game goes and for the dealer to assume it will cross based on a buyer's mumblings is rediculous. Those eager to fault the buyer for making such comments have very clear hindsight and seem to enjoy rubbing salt into a wound.
This is a small world community so I understand why the buyer might not want to burn bridges behind him but I certainly would like to know the dealer.
I had a similar, but opposite, situation happen to me at long beach. A dealer made me an offer for a coin and I said I wanted to think about it and walked away. When I came back an hour later he had changed his mind (it wasn't quite that simple, he got new information on the coin which neither he nor I was aware of previously). I explained to him that I understood that his offer was only good when made and I had passed at that time. Now if I'd said ok while standing there I would have expected him to live by his offer. As it was, I didn't fault him at all.
--Jerry >>
This raises a very serious question: Was the offer to sell at $1700 actually accepted? When he named the price, did you say "OK" or "I'll take it" or words to that effect, or did you simply stand there counting money?
Some people stand there counting money as a negotiating ploy without having accepted or rejected an offer. Did you specifically accept the offer?
Did you counter at any price below the $1700 before accepting the offer? By contract law, countering an offer gives the person who made the offer every right to refuse to sell at the original offer.
TD
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
Capt., Good point. In my post I'd assumed he said "I'll take it" before he started counting money but in rereading the OP I don't see that written. --Jerry
<< <i>Coin shows used to be educational for all and FUN.
somehow I am reminded of an old saying ..... which I think was about boys, bb guns, and frogs...
"while the boys shoot the frogs in fun, the frogs die in ernest".
Don't ever forget that while it may be fun to collect coins, for the dealer whose living depends on selling coins it is much more serious.
I'm not making excuses for the dealer in question. Just pointing out the obvious. >>
I am about as pro-dealer as anyone on this forum (and have been soundly abused for it in the past), but I have a problem with this on several levels. First, the unnecessary death of a frog, to me, is far more serious, than whether a coin dealer makes $1000 or $5000 on a coin.
Second, for as long as I can remember, coin dealers have been trying to depict themselves as professionals and some dealers are, indeed, very trustworthy and professional. The majority, however, are probably like the guy described in the OP, and act as unprofessionally as the sleaziest huckster, con-artist, or salesman. As a collector, attending a coin show, I am there to have fun and be educated. If the dealers take the fun and education out of it, I stop going, and soon I stop buying coins. Get a few more like me and a few more yet, and soon we have less money coming into the coin market/hobby/industrial complex, maybe some money coming out of it, and fewer dealers putting food on the table.
I think it behooves dealers to not forget who butters their bread: not PCGS, not Heritage, not the brick-and-mortar shop that sells you stuff wholesale, but ultimately the collector, who toils at his own job, whose wife foregoes a Wolf oven ( ) , whose children wear second-hand clothes, so that the poor slob can buy these trinkets he enjoys. >>
The "so called" dealer is not in question IMHO.....because of the fact there is NO information whatsoever, no coin information and no dealer information.
If it was me, I would rat out such a dealer in a "New York second", I would at least give the details about the coin if nothing else.
The person that started this thread is full of crap and I will stick to my opinion.
*****Too bad you didn't get the coin. Also too bad you don't feel like these boards are meant for sharing info such as which dealer it was.
I don't I will ever come across him, since I doubt we are near each other, but, hey, lack of knowledge is what gives dealers their power and why would anyone want to deny them that? Don't share knowledge so your fellow collectors can have repeat performances with said dealer *******
I echo that statement.
I think sometime in the last 1-2 yrs this scenario was written up in the ANA Numistist Magazine under Ethics. I wished I could remember what the majority voted. But regardless of what the ANA board thinks, I think the Dealer is a scum bag. I've worked a couple shows and would never dream of backing out of a verbal deal. It's very low.
You need to out this Dealer. I know you stated it was your "word" not to out him, but that is a cop out. To give your "word" means you are upholding an agreement. Us members don't have an agreement with you and want you to OUT him. You can now make the decision to OUT him based upon the majority here wanting his name. You simply make a decision based upon new information. If we made a "deal" with you, it'd be diffierent. There is NO deal here.
We all know there are many unethical Dealers, we simply want to know who to watch out for. Why won't you agree to educate us ? Who's your friend here, do you really think it's best to protect the Unethical Dealer over your true friends on the Board that shares information with you. Come on, wake up.
<< <i>The way the story was told I can't see any defense for the dealer. Once he quotes a price and it is accepted, the trasfer of funds is a formality, IMHO.
We all know how the crossing game goes and for the dealer to assume it will cross based on a buyer's mumblings is rediculous. Those eager to fault the buyer for making such comments have very clear hindsight and seem to enjoy rubbing salt into a wound.
This is a small world community so I understand why the buyer might not want to burn bridges behind him but I certainly would like to know the dealer.
I had a similar, but opposite, situation happen to me at long beach. A dealer made me an offer for a coin and I said I wanted to think about it and walked away. When I came back an hour later he had changed his mind (it wasn't quite that simple, he got new information on the coin which neither he nor I was aware of previously). I explained to him that I understood that his offer was only good when made and I had passed at that time. Now if I'd said ok while standing there I would have expected him to live by his offer. As it was, I didn't fault him at all.
--Jerry >>
This raises a very serious question: Was the offer to sell at $1700 actually accepted? When he named the price, did you say "OK" or "I'll take it" or words to that effect, or did you simply stand there counting money?
Some people stand there counting money as a negotiating ploy without having accepted or rejected an offer. Did you specifically accept the offer?
Did you counter at any price below the $1700 before accepting the offer? By contract law, countering an offer gives the person who made the offer every right to refuse to sell at the original offer.
TD >>
I throw down a few bills to show i'm serious (or flash a wad, i'm not rich but I would show him all I had) and than start to haggle, the price seems to go down from then on.
Just guess what I would say if the dealer agreed on a $1700 price and then went to $6900.............
I don't know... maybe it's just me but, if you had purchased a set from me and said you wanted to try to see if PCGS would grade it higher or if you wanted it for your registry set or your 'uncle Bob'... I would have just taken the $1700 (which is what I wanted for the set) and wished you the best of luck.
It's not like he wanted $1700 and you took the coin, laughed, and told him it was a rare error worth $17,000 or something... the seller's a bone head and in the end he lost a $1700 sale and pissed off a customer.
The dealer must not be familiar with modern proof coins or else he would have known that the PCGS slab of any grade is almost always worth considerably more. Y ou can't tell me he hadn't already thought of that.
<< <i>The dealer must not be familiar with modern proof coins or else he would have known that the PCGS slab of any grade is almost always worth considerably more. Y ou can't tell me he hadn't already thought of that. >>
If you took the coin to a dealer to sell, and said you would accept her $1700 offer, then before the money was exchanged, she looked it up and said "hey, this is worth $6900"
WHAT WOULD YOU DO?
Frank Provasek - PCGS Authorized Dealer, Life Member ANA, Member TNA. www.frankcoins.com
<< <i>If you took the coin to a dealer to sell, and said you would accept her $1700 offer, then before the money was exchanged, she looked it up and said "hey, this is worth $6900"
WHAT WOULD YOU DO? >>
But that's not how it went down. I'm pretty pro dealer, and this one is not good - based upon what was presented by the OP, he's a jerk.
Since I try to buy only coins that are exceptional for the grade, I'm quite sure I have been continually cherry picked for upgrades and crossovers. I am satisfied to to sell my coins for my standard markup as that is my primary reason for being in business. When a buyer reports back to me that he has made an upgrade or crossover it only means to me that he will be back to try his luck again. I do occasionally play the crackout game and have sent coins in 5 times and gotten 5 different grades from body bag to ms 64. So there is absolutely no guarantee that the coin in question will cross I am actually asked by potential buyers if I think the coin they are interested in has a shot. I reply that I believe nearly every coin I have for sale has a shot. In this case I believe the dealer is one of many who rely on plastic numbers and other people's opinions rather than his own grading ability. The TPGS have made it possible for people with little or no numismatic knowledge to operate as dealers. It stands to reason that such people will panic at the very thought that someone smarter than them might profit from their ignorance. This is especially true when there is so much bragging about getting upgrades and crossovers. I have a coin for sale right now that is listed by PCGS for $7000. It is currently residing in an NGC holder and graded proof 66 cameo. I will be satisfied to realize my asking price of $3950. Does it have a shot to cross? You bet! It is a very attractive coin. I don't really care what happens to it after I sell it. So please, won't someone come to my table in Atlanta and take advantage of me? I promise I won't raise the price even if you bring three friends who swear the coin will cross. Dave W
David J Weygant Rare Coins website: www.djwcoin.com
We don't know the dealers side of the story or what coin this was. Maybe the $1,700 price was an obvious mistake and the sale shouldn't be forced. You shouldn't condem a person until you hear what they have to say and listen to all of the evidence. We will never hear this.
By the way I think this story is a bunch of BS but it's a fun thread to read.
When I was about 5 an older neighbor talked me into squashing a frog with a rock. I still feel bad about it. It's only been 40 years.
<< <i>Now I will not mention the dealer, show, or even the coin. >>
I get the feeling there is more to the story than what has been stated or another side to this story which is why CoinKing1969 doesn't want to identify the dealer. If he did identify the dealer, the dealer may come on the forum and tell us a different story. I agree with those that think this whole thread is total BS.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i> Was the offer to sell at $1700 actually accepted? When he named the price, did you say "OK" or "I'll take it" or words to that effect, or did you simply stand there counting money?
Some people stand there counting money as a negotiating ploy without having accepted or rejected an offer. Did you specifically accept the offer?
TD >>
Exactly!
Standing there counting money without saying anything would probably tick off a coin dealer.
It certainly does not mean a deal is sealed.
Although I feel for the buyer, he has no one to blame but himself.
He thought you were cherry picking him- some dealers don't mind this but some won't sell to you if they think you are a sharpie making money off them. Do what I do- play stupid at shows and don't act like you know too much. In fact try to act like a novice and they are usually quite friendly but once they realize you are better than them at a particular series or grading they get defensive. I guess this is a normal reaction but some just react a little more strongly. As I said before act like a novice and things are all good and besides you can usually tell who the crooks are this way too. Also don't out the dealer if you don't feel comfortable in doing so... mike
Standing there counting money without saying anything would probably tick off a coin dealer. It certainly does not mean a deal is sealed.
Wouldn't tick me off one bit. If I'm trying to sell a coin and cash is being counted out in front of me, I'm just hoping the potential buyer doesn't stop at $1600 and says, "will you take that?" I've had that happen as well as buyers who were just figuring out if they had enough cash....and in some cases they didn't and walked away.
So what you're telling me is that there are dealers who when they see potential buyers reach into their pockets (for cash) they immediately retract their offers. Hmm, wonder if such dealers could ever sell a coin. Does this dealer do the same dance when one reaches for their checkbook as well? If so, that's one poor dealer.
<< <i>You obviously knew more about the coin (series) than did the dealer. You're probably right - to him it was a price tag. But - you raised a major red flag when you told him you were buying the coin to cross it to PCGS. He obviously never considered that, and also, may not have had the expertise to evalute wether it would cross or not. You gave all that (your knowledge) away. >>
The dealer was aware that NGC holdered coins are not allowed in PCGS Registry sets right? Perhaps the owner of the coin would have been happy to have it in his PCGS registry set at one grade lower.
The dealer was aware that NGC holdered coins are not allowed in PCGS Registry sets sets right? Perhaps the owner of the coin would have been happy to have it in his PCGS registry set at one grade lower. >>
When a dealer quotes me a price that I like, I put the coin in my pocket as I write out a check. Never had a dealer that complained.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>If you took the coin to a dealer to sell, and said you would accept her $1700 offer, then before the money was exchanged, she looked it up and said "hey, this is worth $6900"
WHAT WOULD YOU DO? >>
This thread's story (such as it is) reminds me of the ethical dilemma that ran in the Numismatist earlier this year. A buyer walks into a store, sees two Flying Eagle cents, then draws a lot of attention to the coins as she tries to negotiate a lower price. The dealer realizes one is a rare variety and is grossly underpriced as indicated by his sticker price on the coin -- and so he renegs. As I recall, the consensus of the debate on this case sided with the dealer.
This sounds like a similar story of a mispriced coin, albeit with a spoken price rather than a written one. "What's your lowest price" is a negotiating tactic (such as it is) that doesn't give up much about the buyer's beliefs in and aspirations for the coin. To then start gushing about one's registry set is way out of whack with this kind of bargaining; suddenly the real motivation for the purchase -- and what should be the rationale for pricing the coin -- becomes obvious, just like a rare die variety on closer inspection.
I'm pretty amazed there is a coin out there that can reasonably sell for $1700 in an NGC slab while it prices at $6900 in the PCGS price guide. Surely the registry-set buyer here knew the PCGS pricing, and it is again shocking (and stretches credibility) that he would start talking about PCGS registry sets at the negotiating table. (And that is gloating.)
I don't care if you are a zillionaire; making four-figure transactions as if they were mere jolly "fun" is nuts... especially when the purpose of the thread is to make a so-serious point about how "some peoples ethics of business is conducted."
C'mon guys, you all have to realize that a lot of dealers are really just the kind of hard-core collectors who are willing to make more commitment than many of us ever will. Are they really guilty until proven innocent?
I had a vest pocket dealer hammer me several times during a show to let go of an 1857 MS64 FE cent for less than my ask price. It was in an old NGC holder and had wonderful color and blast. A single tic kept it from a 65. I quoted the guy $75 over what I paid for it. Towards the end of the show he comes by one last time and says you sure you won't take $1000? (bid on the coin is $975). He keeps stating that the coin is so much over bid, etc. I'm a little tired of him at this point and say NO rather sharply. He pulls out the cash and starts to counting. He gives me the $1025 I was asking for and goes on his way.
Next show he is there again and gleefully expounds how he took this "fabulous" coin to his next coin club meeting and got over $1200 for it. He was telling me how it had luster on it like he had never seen. The coin was astounding to him. Yet there he was trying to chisel out another $25 on several attempts over a few hours while he's working on $200 profit. And he has the nads to gloat about it in front of me. Needless to say the next time he asks for a price....it will be considerably higher than anyone else gets quoted.
Another time I had one of the leading coin magazine dealer/advertisers beat me to holy heck on a MS65 better date Civil War quarter. I really had to sell the coin because I was low on cash and the coin was not that nice to me (dipped with a faint staple scratch...you can guess the top TPG on this one). I had had this dog for about 6 years and knew it was a mistake. I bought it "cheap" but no dog is ever cheap enough. No one else had expressed interest in it. Well this guy just about bled my stone dry over about half an hour of "negotiating." Torture would have more aptly described it. He got to my lowest possible price and then some. I felt bad about taking such a beating from him and on the price.
After the check is written the dealer's face lights up. His sour negotiation face is gone. Now he is in full gloating mode on how he's been looking for one of these for years for his Civil War year set. I am floored. He was ecastatic about the condition and rarity. He ought to have well been jumping up and down on his table. It of course made me feel worse. Every coin since then that he has asked me about has been priced higher to him....with no counters accepted or considered. He probably still doesn't get it.
Unlike the possibility of the OP's thread being bogus, these are true stories. I have dozens more (lol).
If anything, more of the same kept coming up my rear as I learned lesson after lesson in the 70's and 80's. The crooks got wealthier and my derrier got redder.
But in our hobby, that saying is rarely ever true. The same sheisters and slicksters that play these games are in this hobby for decades doing their "thing." Once around long enough they they use their longevity and experience as cornerstones in attracting newbies to keep filling the ranks as the burnees fall by the wayside. The dealer that plays entirely above board does nowhere near as well as the slicksters. It's been this way for the 35 years I've been paying attention and I don't see it changing. The slicksters get offered the best deals first and make the most. Some of your well-travelled vest pocket or local show dealers nearly kill themselves to squeak out a living. They are often the best source of good coins at the right prices. And they'll never get rich off of you doing it. The methods of the slicksters have changed from the 1970's to 1990's to date....but not the results. Some of the most crooked players way back then have been promoted to luminary/sage status today. They should run for president!
Look at your dealers critically, not blindly. Look past the hype and glitz and their own self-promoting rhetoric. Ask them how much money they've made for their clients. And make them prove it. Ask them if they had any clients who lost big money. If they can't name any...they're probably not being honest. Just building collections or sets means squat. What counts is whether the collector is buried when he goes to sell or makes a nice profit. You almost never hear about those that are buried and since so few do well financially, you never hear that side either. The silence is truly deafening! And if you've never ever sold a coin to test your dealers or offered their own coins back to them, then you really don't know the answer to the question. You owe at least that to your family and heirs. Just my 2c. Just don't buy the story that it's only been a few years so you shouldn't expect to break even yet......that takes a long term hold (ie 10-20 years). I first learned that lesson in 1980 when I went to sell all my gem commems to the local dealer who had been charging me MS65 sheet prices for them the past few years. He wanted nothing to do with them. He had no use for them, no customers, etc. At least I learned that lesson before I got real heavy into type coins. Most dealers don't want and can't afford their old coins back...at least not at a fair buy back. But you won't know until you try. That's when the real lessons begin. Ouch!
What counts is whether the collector is buried when he goes to sell or makes a nice profit. You almost never hear about those that are buried and since so few do well financially, you never hear that side either. The silence is truly deafening! And if you've never ever sold a coin to test your dealers or offered their own coins back to them, then you really don't know the answer to the question.
So true. So true.
Q: Are You Printing Money? Bernanke: Not Literally
I haven't read this entire thread but I can sympthasize. One local dealer, years ago, had junk boxes in his store marked with prices. I would make my selections and he would refuse to sell them on the grounds that if I wanted them, he must have missed something. A friend and recent candidate for the ANA board had the same experience. The most interesting things I found in his junk boxes were Puerto Rico silver coins.
If you came back to his shop at the end of the month, he was ready to give everything away, so to speak, in order to raise the rent money.
I make it a point to always pull out multiple coins when I see one good sitting in the case. Sometimes I'll pick out losers as well so the dealer might think I'm an idiot (rather I'm trying to figure out in my head why he's asking MS65 money for a whizzed coin...lol). And in many cases I'll pass on some of the coins I picked out so it doesn't look like I'm George Washington at the cherry tree. You don't have to chop the whole tree down, just pick some assorted fruit to keep them guessing. Make a purchase you know you can't make a cent on or might lose on, in order to cherry the coin next to it. Whatever works. And be slow to the check book or to the pocket. You don't have to counter. Just be slower. Then thank them for the purchase and move along....slowly. Gloat later, and in private....or until you show the prize to a buddy who asks: "geez Bob, why'd ya buy a whizzed coin." Doh!
But if you buy everything, everytime after much picking and searching, that sends up flares.
Comments
<< <i>Pardon my ignorance but.... what's the big deal if you were "transferring from NGC to PCGS for my registry set"? Why did that end the transaction?
Also, if he wanted $1700 and you were willing to pay $1700... why would he turn his back on his own price? Did mentioning your registry set make him think he had higher grade coins and therefore more valuable? >>
Like a dealer does not know his stuff?
$1700 means he will make a tidy profit and then he balks?
Registry Smegistry..........I smell some shinanigans going on here.
If the dealer thought it would cross why didn't he do it himself?
It's a bad dealer or a bad story,
Ray
<< <i>C'mon you can't dump on the dealer - you should have kept your mouth shut.
It doesn't matter if you are the buyer or seller. If either starts to gloat over the deal - before the deal is done - then he is an idiot.
You have absolutely no beef. How naive. >>
No beef??
Really??
<< <i>I think only one word can describe this whole situation... Lame!!! Let me make sure I have this straight... The buyer inquires about a coin, the dealer quotes his/her price, the buyer accepts, the buyer mentions he wants to see if it crosses for his registry set, then the dealer scoops the coin back and says no sale. As far as I'm concerned, it would do the collecting community a favor to mention who the dealer is. What a joke! -On a side note: What coin is it that goes from $1700 in NGC plastic to $6900 in PCGS plastic???
Do you smell that Dizzy? Sniff, sniff
I think you are reading my mind.
Something really stinks and for some reason it smells like BS.
Ray
That would be hilarious.
<< <i><... and HOPEFULLY PCGS WILL BODY BAG IT... >
That would be hilarious.
You guy may be right if some one did that to me I would off him in a sec.
Hoard the keys.
<< <i>
<< <i>Please name the dealer.
Thanks >>
Please remember in my first statement I will not mention the dealer, show or coin. I would be going back on my "word". Maybe the dealer and I both learned something from this. I don't wish nothing bad for him. I am just seeing a lot of bad business by people and Coin shows used to be educational for all and FUN. It seems that we might be losing some of this by dealers not having enough knowledge of collecting. Some might be losing the total grasp why people actually come to coin shows. BUT their is still some good shows and dealers out their on the floors.
I have had no such experiences at coin shows, in fact no matter what I have mentioned to a dealer........ the price seems to go down.
What's the big deal about telling all what the coin in question is?
Ray
<< <i>Coin shows used to be educational for all and FUN.
somehow I am reminded of an old saying ..... which I think was about boys, bb guns, and frogs...
"while the boys shoot the frogs in fun, the frogs die in ernest".
Don't ever forget that while it may be fun to collect coins, for the dealer whose living depends on selling coins it is much more serious.
I'm not making excuses for the dealer in question. Just pointing out the obvious. >>
I am about as pro-dealer as anyone on this forum (and have been soundly abused for it in the past), but I have a problem with this on several levels. First, the unnecessary death of a frog, to me, is far more serious, than whether a coin dealer makes $1000 or $5000 on a coin.
Second, for as long as I can remember, coin dealers have been trying to depict themselves as professionals and some dealers are, indeed, very trustworthy and professional. The majority, however, are probably like the guy described in the OP, and act as unprofessionally as the sleaziest huckster, con-artist, or salesman. As a collector, attending a coin show, I am there to have fun and be educated. If the dealers take the fun and education out of it, I stop going, and soon I stop buying coins. Get a few more like me and a few more yet, and soon we have less money coming into the coin market/hobby/industrial complex, maybe some money coming out of it, and fewer dealers putting food on the table.
I think it behooves dealers to not forget who butters their bread: not PCGS, not Heritage, not the brick-and-mortar shop that sells you stuff wholesale, but ultimately the collector, who toils at his own job, whose wife foregoes a Wolf oven (
Well said.
BTW, My daughter would be very Pro Wolf-oven. She thinks the wolf ate LRRs grandmother and to eat the wolf would be fair play. --Jerry
<< <i>The way the story was told I can't see any defense for the dealer. Once he quotes a price and it is accepted, the trasfer of funds is a formality, IMHO.
We all know how the crossing game goes and for the dealer to assume it will cross based on a buyer's mumblings is rediculous. Those eager to fault the buyer for making such comments have very clear hindsight and seem to enjoy rubbing salt into a wound.
This is a small world community so I understand why the buyer might not want to burn bridges behind him but I certainly would like to know the dealer.
I had a similar, but opposite, situation happen to me at long beach. A dealer made me an offer for a coin and I said I wanted to think about it and walked away. When I came back an hour later he had changed his mind (it wasn't quite that simple, he got new information on the coin which neither he nor I was aware of previously). I explained to him that I understood that his offer was only good when made and I had passed at that time. Now if I'd said ok while standing there I would have expected him to live by his offer. As it was, I didn't fault him at all.
--Jerry >>
This raises a very serious question: Was the offer to sell at $1700 actually accepted? When he named the price, did you say "OK" or "I'll take it" or words to that effect, or did you simply stand there counting money?
Some people stand there counting money as a negotiating ploy without having accepted or rejected an offer. Did you specifically accept the offer?
Did you counter at any price below the $1700 before accepting the offer? By contract law, countering an offer gives the person who made the offer every right to refuse to sell at the original offer.
TD
Good point. In my post I'd assumed he said "I'll take it" before he started counting money but in rereading the OP I don't see that written. --Jerry
<< <i>
<< <i>Coin shows used to be educational for all and FUN.
somehow I am reminded of an old saying ..... which I think was about boys, bb guns, and frogs...
"while the boys shoot the frogs in fun, the frogs die in ernest".
Don't ever forget that while it may be fun to collect coins, for the dealer whose living depends on selling coins it is much more serious.
I'm not making excuses for the dealer in question. Just pointing out the obvious. >>
I am about as pro-dealer as anyone on this forum (and have been soundly abused for it in the past), but I have a problem with this on several levels. First, the unnecessary death of a frog, to me, is far more serious, than whether a coin dealer makes $1000 or $5000 on a coin.
Second, for as long as I can remember, coin dealers have been trying to depict themselves as professionals and some dealers are, indeed, very trustworthy and professional. The majority, however, are probably like the guy described in the OP, and act as unprofessionally as the sleaziest huckster, con-artist, or salesman. As a collector, attending a coin show, I am there to have fun and be educated. If the dealers take the fun and education out of it, I stop going, and soon I stop buying coins. Get a few more like me and a few more yet, and soon we have less money coming into the coin market/hobby/industrial complex, maybe some money coming out of it, and fewer dealers putting food on the table.
I think it behooves dealers to not forget who butters their bread: not PCGS, not Heritage, not the brick-and-mortar shop that sells you stuff wholesale, but ultimately the collector, who toils at his own job, whose wife foregoes a Wolf oven (
The "so called" dealer is not in question IMHO.....because of the fact there is NO information whatsoever, no coin information and no dealer information.
If it was me, I would rat out such a dealer in a "New York second", I would at least give the details about the coin if nothing else.
The person that started this thread is full of crap and I will stick to my opinion.
Ray
Also too bad you don't feel like these boards are meant for sharing info such as which dealer it was.
I don't I will ever come across him, since I doubt we are near each other, but, hey, lack of knowledge is what gives dealers their power and why would anyone want to deny them that? Don't share knowledge so your fellow collectors can have repeat performances with said dealer *******
I echo that statement.
I think sometime in the last 1-2 yrs this scenario was written up in the ANA Numistist Magazine under Ethics. I wished I could remember what the majority voted. But regardless of what the ANA board thinks, I think the Dealer is a scum bag. I've worked a couple shows and would never dream of backing out of a verbal deal. It's very low.
You need to out this Dealer. I know you stated it was your "word" not to out him, but that is a cop out. To give your "word" means you are upholding an agreement. Us members don't have an agreement with you and want you to OUT him. You can now make the decision to OUT him based upon the majority here wanting his name. You simply make a decision based upon new information. If we made a "deal" with you, it'd be diffierent. There is NO deal here.
We all know there are many unethical Dealers, we simply want to know who to watch out for. Why won't you agree to educate us ? Who's your friend here, do you really think it's best to protect the Unethical Dealer over your true friends on the Board that shares information with you. Come on, wake up.
Fred, Las Vegas, NV
<< <i>
<< <i>The way the story was told I can't see any defense for the dealer. Once he quotes a price and it is accepted, the trasfer of funds is a formality, IMHO.
We all know how the crossing game goes and for the dealer to assume it will cross based on a buyer's mumblings is rediculous. Those eager to fault the buyer for making such comments have very clear hindsight and seem to enjoy rubbing salt into a wound.
This is a small world community so I understand why the buyer might not want to burn bridges behind him but I certainly would like to know the dealer.
I had a similar, but opposite, situation happen to me at long beach. A dealer made me an offer for a coin and I said I wanted to think about it and walked away. When I came back an hour later he had changed his mind (it wasn't quite that simple, he got new information on the coin which neither he nor I was aware of previously). I explained to him that I understood that his offer was only good when made and I had passed at that time. Now if I'd said ok while standing there I would have expected him to live by his offer. As it was, I didn't fault him at all.
--Jerry >>
This raises a very serious question: Was the offer to sell at $1700 actually accepted? When he named the price, did you say "OK" or "I'll take it" or words to that effect, or did you simply stand there counting money?
Some people stand there counting money as a negotiating ploy without having accepted or rejected an offer. Did you specifically accept the offer?
Did you counter at any price below the $1700 before accepting the offer? By contract law, countering an offer gives the person who made the offer every right to refuse to sell at the original offer.
TD >>
I throw down a few bills to show i'm serious (or flash a wad, i'm not rich but I would show him all I had) and than start to haggle, the price seems to go down from then on.
Just guess what I would say if the dealer agreed on a $1700 price and then went to $6900.............
Ray
It's not like he wanted $1700 and you took the coin, laughed, and told him it was a rare error worth $17,000 or something... the seller's a bone head and in the end he lost a $1700 sale and pissed off a customer.
<< <i>You should have asked the dealer if you cross it to ACG could you have it for $300. >>
Fred, Las Vegas, NV
<< <i>The dealer must not be familiar with modern proof coins or else he would have known that the PCGS slab of any grade is almost always worth considerably more. Y ou can't tell me he hadn't already thought of that. >>
<< <i>You should have asked the dealer if you cross it to ACG could you have it for $300. >>
Whoops!
I have 2 ACG graded coins from 10 years ago and they both look like they are...........overgraded!
Ray
WHAT WOULD YOU DO?
N/T
Ray
<< <i>If you took the coin to a dealer to sell, and said you would accept her $1700 offer, then before the money was exchanged, she looked it up and said "hey, this is worth $6900"
WHAT WOULD YOU DO? >>
But that's not how it went down. I'm pretty pro dealer, and this one is not good - based upon what was presented by the OP, he's a jerk.
Check out my current listings: https://ebay.com/sch/khunt/m.html?_ipg=200&_sop=12&_rdc=1
BLOCK this sellerand be giving out his ID
Because it was at a show you think you have to some how protect his identity?
What was the use of this thread?
Just to show us what kind of foolish buyer you were?
I am satisfied to to sell my coins for my standard markup as that is my primary reason for being in business.
When a buyer reports back to me that he has made an upgrade or crossover it only means to me that he will be back to try his luck again.
I do occasionally play the crackout game and have sent coins in 5 times and gotten 5 different grades from body bag to ms 64. So there is absolutely no guarantee that the coin in question will cross
I am actually asked by potential buyers if I think the coin they are interested in has a shot.
I reply that I believe nearly every coin I have for sale has a shot.
In this case I believe the dealer is one of many who rely on plastic numbers and other people's opinions rather than his own grading ability.
The TPGS have made it possible for people with little or no numismatic knowledge to operate as dealers.
It stands to reason that such people will panic at the very thought that someone smarter than them might profit from their ignorance.
This is especially true when there is so much bragging about getting upgrades and crossovers.
I have a coin for sale right now that is listed by PCGS for $7000.
It is currently residing in an NGC holder and graded proof 66 cameo.
I will be satisfied to realize my asking price of $3950.
Does it have a shot to cross? You bet! It is a very attractive coin.
I don't really care what happens to it after I sell it.
So please, won't someone come to my table in Atlanta and take advantage of me?
I promise I won't raise the price even if you bring three friends who swear the coin will cross. Dave W
David J Weygant Rare Coins website: www.djwcoin.com
By the way I think this story is a bunch of BS but it's a fun thread to read.
When I was about 5 an older neighbor talked me into squashing a frog with a rock. I still feel bad about it. It's only been 40 years.
With his attitude, wouldn't it be wonderful if the coin came back body-bagged?!
<< <i>Now I will not mention the dealer, show, or even the coin. >>
I get the feeling there is more to the story than what has been stated or another side to this story which is why CoinKing1969 doesn't want to identify the dealer. If he did identify the dealer, the dealer may come on the forum and tell us a different story. I agree with those that think this whole thread is total BS.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>I thought for about 15 seconds and reached in pocket to buy it from him. >>
To me, that is where you went wrong -- just "thinking" about it.
You should've immediately said, "I'll take it... loud enough to 'seal' the deal, so to speak.
Until someone definitely say they will buy something, the deal is NOT complete.
Reaching in your pocket does not mean a thing.
Sorry, that's the way I would operate and that's the way most vendors would operate, I believe.
The dealer needs to place his orbs in one of these !
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
<< <i>Once he quotes a price and it is accepted, the transfer of funds is a formality, IMHO. >>
I just don't see where the buyer ever said he "accepted" the $1700 price. Or that the buyer ever sealed the deal verbally at all.
Not the way the story was recalled, anyway.
Although I empathize totally with the buyer, and figure this dealer is a jerk, I still don't see where the deal was consumated.
Sticking one's hand in their pocket does not mean a thing.
In fact, it just would get a dealer all the more enthusiastic about getting as much $$$ as he could.
<< <i> Was the offer to sell at $1700 actually accepted? When he named the price, did you say "OK" or "I'll take it" or words to that effect, or did you simply stand there counting money?
Some people stand there counting money as a negotiating ploy without having accepted or rejected an offer. Did you specifically accept the offer?
TD >>
Exactly!
Standing there counting money without saying anything would probably tick off a coin dealer.
It certainly does not mean a deal is sealed.
Although I feel for the buyer, he has no one to blame but himself.
Wouldn't tick me off one bit. If I'm trying to sell a coin and cash is being counted out in front of me, I'm just hoping the potential buyer doesn't stop at $1600 and says, "will you take that?" I've had that happen as well as buyers who were just figuring out if they had enough cash....and in some cases they didn't and walked away.
So what you're telling me is that there are dealers who when they see potential buyers reach into their pockets (for cash) they immediately retract their offers. Hmm, wonder if such dealers could ever sell a coin. Does this dealer do the same dance when one reaches for their checkbook as well? If so, that's one poor dealer.
roadrunner
<< <i>You obviously knew more about the coin (series) than did the dealer. You're probably right - to him it was a price tag. But - you raised a major red flag when you told him you were buying the coin to cross it to PCGS. He obviously never considered that, and also, may not have had the expertise to evalute wether it would cross or not. You gave all that (your knowledge) away. >>
The dealer was aware that NGC holdered coins are not allowed in PCGS Registry sets right? Perhaps the owner of the coin would have been happy to have it in his PCGS registry set at one grade lower.
edited to remove the extry sets
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
If you knew it was going to cross the dealer is entitled to the 6900 after it crossed right?
<< <i>If you took the coin to a dealer to sell, and said you would accept her $1700 offer, then before the money was exchanged, she looked it up and said "hey, this is worth $6900"
WHAT WOULD YOU DO? >>
This thread's story (such as it is) reminds me of the ethical dilemma that ran in the Numismatist earlier this year. A buyer walks into a store, sees two Flying Eagle cents, then draws a lot of attention to the coins as she tries to negotiate a lower price. The dealer realizes one is a rare variety and is grossly underpriced as indicated by his sticker price on the coin -- and so he renegs. As I recall, the consensus of the debate on this case sided with the dealer.
This sounds like a similar story of a mispriced coin, albeit with a spoken price rather than a written one. "What's your lowest price" is a negotiating tactic (such as it is) that doesn't give up much about the buyer's beliefs in and aspirations for the coin. To then start gushing about one's registry set is way out of whack with this kind of bargaining; suddenly the real motivation for the purchase -- and what should be the rationale for pricing the coin -- becomes obvious, just like a rare die variety on closer inspection.
I'm pretty amazed there is a coin out there that can reasonably sell for $1700 in an NGC slab while it prices at $6900 in the PCGS price guide. Surely the registry-set buyer here knew the PCGS pricing, and it is again shocking (and stretches credibility) that he would start talking about PCGS registry sets at the negotiating table. (And that is gloating.)
I don't care if you are a zillionaire; making four-figure transactions as if they were mere jolly "fun" is nuts... especially when the purpose of the thread is to make a so-serious point about how "some peoples ethics of business is conducted."
C'mon guys, you all have to realize that a lot of dealers are really just the kind of hard-core collectors who are willing to make more commitment than many of us ever will. Are they really guilty until proven innocent?
full of holes and
not good for anyones health.
Plain n simple- BS.
Stae the coin in question and the alleged dealer- or personally I think the OP is a BS artist.
I had a vest pocket dealer hammer me several times during a show to let go of an 1857 MS64 FE cent for less than my ask price. It was in an old NGC holder and had wonderful color and blast. A single tic kept it from a 65. I quoted the guy $75 over what I paid for it. Towards the end of the show he comes by one last time and says you sure you won't take $1000? (bid on the coin is $975). He keeps stating that the coin is so much over bid, etc. I'm a little tired of him at this point and say NO rather sharply. He pulls out the cash and starts to counting. He gives me the $1025 I was asking for and goes on his way.
Next show he is there again and gleefully expounds how he took this "fabulous" coin to his next coin club meeting and got over $1200 for it. He was telling me how it had luster on it like he had never seen. The coin was astounding to him. Yet there he was
trying to chisel out another $25 on several attempts over a few hours while he's working on $200 profit. And he has the nads to gloat about it in front of me. Needless to say the next time he asks for a price....it will be considerably higher than anyone else gets quoted.
Another time I had one of the leading coin magazine dealer/advertisers beat me to holy heck on a MS65 better date Civil War quarter. I really had to sell the coin because I was low on cash and the coin was not that nice to me (dipped with a faint staple scratch...you can guess the top TPG on this one). I had had this dog for about 6 years and knew it was a mistake. I bought it "cheap" but no dog is ever cheap enough. No one else had expressed interest in it. Well this guy just about bled my stone dry over about half an hour of "negotiating." Torture would have more aptly described it. He got to my lowest possible price and then some. I felt bad about taking such a beating from him and on the price.
After the check is written the dealer's face lights up. His sour negotiation face is gone. Now he is in full gloating mode on how he's been looking for one of these for years for his Civil War year set. I am floored. He was ecastatic about the condition and rarity. He ought to have well been jumping up and down on his table. It of course made me feel worse. Every coin since then that he has asked me about has been priced higher to him....with no counters accepted or considered. He probably still doesn't get it.
Unlike the possibility of the OP's thread being bogus, these are true stories. I have dozens more (lol).
roadrunner
what goes around comes around
If anything, more of the same kept coming up my rear as I learned lesson after lesson in the 70's and 80's. The crooks got wealthier and my derrier got redder.
But in our hobby, that saying is rarely ever true. The same sheisters and slicksters that play these games are in this hobby for decades doing their "thing." Once around long enough they they use their longevity and experience as cornerstones in attracting newbies to keep filling the ranks as the burnees fall by the wayside. The dealer that plays entirely above board does nowhere near as well as the slicksters. It's been this way for the 35 years I've been paying attention and I don't see it changing. The slicksters get offered the best deals first and make the most. Some of your well-travelled vest pocket or local show dealers nearly kill themselves to squeak out a living. They are often the best source of good coins at the right prices. And they'll never get rich off of you doing it. The methods of the slicksters have changed from the 1970's to 1990's to date....but not the results. Some of the most crooked players way back then have been promoted to luminary/sage status today. They should run for president!
Look at your dealers critically, not blindly. Look past the hype and glitz and their own self-promoting rhetoric. Ask them how much money they've made for their clients. And make them prove it. Ask them if they had any clients who lost big money. If they can't name any...they're probably not being honest. Just building collections or sets means squat. What counts is whether the collector is buried when he goes to sell or makes a nice profit. You almost never hear about those that are buried and since so few do well financially, you never hear that side either. The silence is truly deafening! And if you've never ever sold a coin to test your dealers or offered their own coins back to them, then you really don't know the answer to the question. You owe at least that to your family and heirs. Just my 2c. Just don't buy the story that it's only been a few years so you shouldn't expect to break even yet......that takes a long term hold (ie 10-20 years). I first learned that lesson in 1980 when I went to sell all my gem commems to the local dealer who had been charging me MS65 sheet prices for them the past few years. He wanted nothing to do with them. He had no use for them, no customers, etc. At least I learned that lesson before I got real heavy into type coins. Most dealers don't want and can't afford their old coins back...at least not at a fair buy back. But you won't know until you try. That's when the real lessons begin. Ouch!
roadrunner
So true. So true.
I knew it would happen.
If you came back to his shop at the end of the month, he was ready to give everything away, so to speak, in order to raise the rent money.
And in many cases I'll pass on some of the coins I picked out so it doesn't look like I'm George Washington at the cherry tree. You don't have to chop the whole tree down, just pick some assorted fruit to keep them guessing. Make a purchase you know you can't make a cent on or might lose on, in order to cherry the coin next to it. Whatever works. And be slow to the check book or to the pocket. You don't have to counter. Just be slower. Then thank them for the purchase and move along....slowly. Gloat later, and in private....or until you show the prize to a buddy who asks: "geez Bob, why'd ya buy a whizzed coin." Doh!
But if you buy everything, everytime after much picking and searching, that sends up flares.
roadruner