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Grade thoughts on an 1811 Bust Half- my grade opinon revealed.
edmerlr
Posts: 563 ✭
I thought I would try something a little different rather than simply ask “A Bustie, how would you grade it?” or say “Here’s a Bust Half. Guess the grade.”
Recently I read the grading opinions to stman’s 1807 small stars Bust Half that he posted on a different thread. The grade opinions ranged from VF-25 to AU-50. What a difference - and perhaps a lot was learned by many when they read that thread.
It is not unusual for those of use who collect Bust Halves to complain that the TPGS do not know how to grade these beautiful Early American coins. We will state, depending on our own personal bias, that TPGS #1 usually under-grades them. Or TPGS #2 usually over-grades them. Or TPGS #3 doesn’t know how to grade them, but this where you send your coins to if the coins have a problem. Or we can always send our coins to a TPGS that is used by some of the questionable eBay sellers – you know the TPGS’s I am alluding to, the ones with odd company names like: YGSTB Numismatic Services (Your Grade on the Slab for only Twenty Bucks)
Below is an 1811 Bust Half. I would like your grade opinions/thoughts and/or comments on this coin. But please keep in mind and read the following before you give a grade opinon:
(1) The Overton number is unimportant to the grade. …but this die marriage was struck with the SECOND USE of well used obverse and reverse dies. The milling on this variety is usually weak and incomplete.
The stars and letters are drawn to the edge showing that this was a later use of these worn dies.
(2) The coin is light to medium gray toned with little luster. This is probably from a long ago light dip. The coin has hairlines on both sides.
This coin would probably ONLY be slabbed by TPGS #3 (mentioned above) with “cleaned” listed on the holder OR by YGSTB Numismatic Services (explained above) who would mark the holder with my grade of choice after I paid the twenty bucks.
(3) When grading an 1811 Bust Half, remember the strike characteristics noted in FEVER’s book:
“…many show weakness in the center of the obverse, sections of the hair curls, and in the drapery clasp. The Eagle’s left wing is another troublesome spot…[some 1811 varieties] show weakness in the stars and dentils – some due to overused, heavily worn dies, while others were possibly caused from overly hard planchets.”
(4) Keep in mind when you look at the coin’s reverse: Not ONLY the left wing and eagle’s head were exposed to circulation wear, but the ENTIRE reverse was exposed to an equal amount of circulation wear.
This coin was never and will probably never be sent to a TPGS. I have my own grade in mind.
...BUT I WOULD WELCOME YOUR GRADE COMMENTS. (a "Net Grade" is OK)
Thank you for your time.
Here is the coin:
Recently I read the grading opinions to stman’s 1807 small stars Bust Half that he posted on a different thread. The grade opinions ranged from VF-25 to AU-50. What a difference - and perhaps a lot was learned by many when they read that thread.
It is not unusual for those of use who collect Bust Halves to complain that the TPGS do not know how to grade these beautiful Early American coins. We will state, depending on our own personal bias, that TPGS #1 usually under-grades them. Or TPGS #2 usually over-grades them. Or TPGS #3 doesn’t know how to grade them, but this where you send your coins to if the coins have a problem. Or we can always send our coins to a TPGS that is used by some of the questionable eBay sellers – you know the TPGS’s I am alluding to, the ones with odd company names like: YGSTB Numismatic Services (Your Grade on the Slab for only Twenty Bucks)
Below is an 1811 Bust Half. I would like your grade opinions/thoughts and/or comments on this coin. But please keep in mind and read the following before you give a grade opinon:
(1) The Overton number is unimportant to the grade. …but this die marriage was struck with the SECOND USE of well used obverse and reverse dies. The milling on this variety is usually weak and incomplete.
The stars and letters are drawn to the edge showing that this was a later use of these worn dies.
(2) The coin is light to medium gray toned with little luster. This is probably from a long ago light dip. The coin has hairlines on both sides.
This coin would probably ONLY be slabbed by TPGS #3 (mentioned above) with “cleaned” listed on the holder OR by YGSTB Numismatic Services (explained above) who would mark the holder with my grade of choice after I paid the twenty bucks.
(3) When grading an 1811 Bust Half, remember the strike characteristics noted in FEVER’s book:
“…many show weakness in the center of the obverse, sections of the hair curls, and in the drapery clasp. The Eagle’s left wing is another troublesome spot…[some 1811 varieties] show weakness in the stars and dentils – some due to overused, heavily worn dies, while others were possibly caused from overly hard planchets.”
(4) Keep in mind when you look at the coin’s reverse: Not ONLY the left wing and eagle’s head were exposed to circulation wear, but the ENTIRE reverse was exposed to an equal amount of circulation wear.
This coin was never and will probably never be sent to a TPGS. I have my own grade in mind.
...BUT I WOULD WELCOME YOUR GRADE COMMENTS. (a "Net Grade" is OK)
Thank you for your time.
Here is the coin:
0
Comments
The coin, as you pointed out, has been cleaned. Given that I'd net grade it to Fine. Unless you are doing Sheldon numbers, I can't see giving net grades a number like 12 or 15.
I am in the VF-35 boat with overall detail sharpness because of the date....of course cleaned also.
If I'm not mistaken, the '10s were in the same boat also with strike fluctuations.
Nice post and nice coin. I like the explaination thingy at the first of the post. Nice Job.
wes
Too many positive BST transactions with too many members to list.
Keep them coming Guys.
Guitarwes: You mentioned the 1810's. Per FEVER in Bust Half Fever II, the 1811 CBH's have better than average strike than those of 1810, but not as favorable as the 1812's.
after all the die use. The right wing does not look like it is very worn to me, and neither do the
claws and branches. I believe the best known is an MS-60 - but chances are most would not call it
MS.
Nice coin, and a rare one at that!
Joe G.
Great BST purchases completed with commoncents123, p8nt, blu62vette and Stuart. Great coin swaps completed with rah1959, eyoung429 and Zug. Top-notch consignment experience with Russ.
42/92
Are those rim tics over STATES and CA or are they portions of the edge lettering resulting from what looks like a slightly off center strike?
Thanks for a fun, informative post. I'll chime in with EF40, net VF30 due to cleaning. Some of the rim dings on the reverse look like they might be due to the edge lettering. Obverse just a bit off center and interesting clash lines on the reverse. A fine R.5 specimen and a keeper.
zap
102 capped bust half dollars - 100 die marriages
BHNC #198
"If I say something in the woods, and my wife isn't around to hear it. Am I still wrong?"
Regarding the apparent edge dings:
Above STATES and CA the edge lettering is too close to the edge of the coin.
There is a small ding (no edge letters there) above the O in OF. There is another small edge ding below 18.
Everybody describes grades using different terminology. Here is my translation of what we have so far in no special order:
1 opinion @ VF30 net Fine
3 opinions @ VF details
1 opinion @ VF30
2 opinions @ VF35
2 opinons @ EF40 details, net VF30
1 opinion @ EF40
(No wonder we all have strong opinions that one TPGS usually over-grades, and/or another TPGS usually under-grades, and/or another TPGS does not know how to grade these coins, and/or et cetera, et cetera, ad nauseam. Don't you think? This is why I, personally, find EF-45's and AU-50's easier to grade. This is also one of the reasons I will never find Busties boring.)
Please keep your responses coming.
Thank you for your time.
Ed R.
ANACS 30
NGC 30
PCGS 25
<< <i>Recently I read the grading opinions to stman’s 1807 small stars Bust Half that he posted on a different thread. The grade opinions ranged from VF-25 to AU-50. What a difference - and perhaps a lot was learned by many when they read that thread. >>
I also hope someone learned something from that thread. Which is why I mentioned after a couple posts about the strike characteristics.
OK, I sure wish when you refer to the weak wing on the reverse you would call it the left wing facing, rather than the left wing. Actually it's the right wing, which is why I call it left wing facing.
On your coin, again we try and ignore the "left wing facing" Heh heh and go more by the right wing facing on reverse. I'd say it looks around xf detail.
But, the obverse although there is some weak strike, I believe there is quite a bit of wear as well. If I were to give an overall grade as far as detail on your coin I'd say around 30. Did I ever mention I feel the VF grades split hairs? Too many of them and very seldom does a lot of folks agree on them.
Edgar
Die marriages are not a consideration, thus the Bust half collectors can
work this to their own windfall !
But it is all in the dimension that you see, a weak strike and late state will still show wear
where the wear is !
There are many out there that are worse than this 1811.
I see VF 25, cleaned and dinged.
Mike
good looking coin.
Just found this thread buried about 8 pages back--where it is much too good to languish. I'd go with an overall 30 details and net 20.
K S
Now here's my story:
This coin was advertised in an auction as a problem-free VF20/25.
I asked for scans of the coin and based my bid on what I felt the coin really was as far as condition.
When the coin arrived, there were more hairlines than I had "picked-up" on in the scan. ...but at the same time I felt that I paid what the coin was worth - and certainly not more than it was worth.
You see, when it comes to R5 Bust Halves, it's not like you have a lot of specimens to chose from - even if you win the Lottery. R5 Busties do NOT grow on trees like Morgan Dollars appear to do.
Adjusting for the cleaning/dipping, I viewed this coin as F15/VF25 Net VF20+ and logged it into my collection as such.
Now I need to review and average together all of your opinons and see if I agree.
Again, thank you all for your time and trouble.
Ed R.
Mike...