Do I sense a bit of snobbery?

Coinsponge · August 30, 2007 5:30AM

I find it amusing to read the posts of what must be the classic coin collectors who feel it a badge of honor to put down modern issues. I sense that from some dealers also. Don't these bastions of purity know that today's junk is what makes tomorrows treasured classics? I wonder how many collectors of 20th century coins had to endure similar comments from the collectors of the 19th century coins. I understand that there may be some legitimate criticism of SOME issues of quality or design but can we avoid forming the "I hate moderns" club? I collect both.

PrivateCoinCollector · August 30, 2007 5:32AM

Me too.

jhusman · August 30, 2007 5:34AM

Me three.

Some people are just sour grapes.

Cladiator · August 30, 2007 5:35AM

<< Some people are just sour grapes. >>

Wouldn't that make them grapes and not people?

IrishMike · August 30, 2007 5:44AM

Explain to me what you mean by snobery and I'll answer your question.

Barndog · August 30, 2007 5:51AM

jhusman · August 30, 2007 5:53AM

<< Wouldn't that make them grapes and not people? >>

Beacuse they whine too much!!!!!

Thankew! I'll be here all week. Tip your waitress.

GoldenEyeNumismatics · August 30, 2007 6:00AM

I don't bash moderns, but I do bash PCGS MS70 coins. It is the pinnacle of buying plastic and not the coin.

291fifth · August 30, 2007 6:02AM

Today's junk will always be junk. There is too much being produced, nearly all of which will survive in very high grade. It ISN'T like it was in the pre-1934 period. Collecting has changed.

fc · August 30, 2007 6:04AM

snobbery. the trait of condescending to those of lower social status

the irony is delicious. see subject line.

and yes, i think modern minted coins from the US mint is a collectable
just like i think nascar makes collectables.

give me a 1984 proof set any day of the week over these hag coins.

edited: no correction of typos was made in this post and no animals
were harmed.

jhdfla · August 30, 2007 6:07AM

I love the buffalo bullion coins. Would love to see them strike something like the Amazonian pattern in gold someday. It would just be cool and fun to see. And me, well, I'm a seated diehard but there's room for Franklins and some moderns too. I still even break out the collection of trolley tokens my mom left me from the days when she worked for the trolley co. in Philly.

John

RYK · August 30, 2007 6:09AM

Do I sense a bit of snobery?

Well, by golly, then call me a snobe...whatever that is...

yellowjacket · August 30, 2007 6:10AM

To each his own. I personally do not "get into" moderns; however, whatever series you want to collect, go for it!

As long as you have the human element, you will have different likes/dislikes and those who would "bash" others who don't think as they do.

Garrow

pf70collector · August 30, 2007 6:21AM

There is already a thread devoted to bashing these. In 1909 they lined up at banks for the new lincoln cent. I am not comparing these to the lincoln but they were ultra moderns back then too. Why is it necessary to bash anybody's preference to what they collect? I just don't get it. There are some crappy old classics that are just too plain ugly to collect but I won't bash them. Get over it and leave us modern collectors alone.

Nysoto · August 30, 2007 6:24AM

I like some classics, and some moderns, and collect both. Moderns are lousy investments for the long term, when the novelty wears off and the speculator hoards are dispersed (remember the $10 1984 S and D Olympic "low mintage" that once sold for $1000, now are bullion?). Modern collectors don't like to hear this.

Gemineye · August 30, 2007 6:27AM

Who are they ?!?!!?..who is bashing the moderns..?!?!?!...who is them snobs..?!?!?!..

TwoSides2aCoin · August 30, 2007 6:31AM

It's not snobbery.
It's "refinement"

twodrhrdtp · August 30, 2007 6:33AM

If Every other post wasnt about the same modern issue we probably could all get along.

frankieboywonder · August 30, 2007 6:35AM

One hundred years from now, we all will be dust in the wind; however classic AND modern coinage will still be avidly collected! Time does march on!

ilikebuffaloes · August 30, 2007 6:40AM

I respect everyone's right to collect what they like to collect. I find it interseting that some choose to make sure that all the modern collectors know that they are not collecting modern coins. And then they remind you everytime you post something about them.

It might be there way of saying that there are too many threads on some of these issues (and in some cases there are).

Maybe what needs to happen is that all of the modern collectors need to post that they don't collect (you pick) and why (maybe you think it is overgraded cleaned crap, etc.).

Of course it won't end the "snobery" or "bigotry" but the'll have to read more and you (and I) might feel better about it!

Russ · August 30, 2007 6:46AM

Moderns are trash, and should come with a warning label.

Russ, NCNE

IGWT · August 30, 2007 6:58AM

The charges have been filed. Will we have a Snobe's Monkey Trial?

paigowjohnny · August 30, 2007 7:00AM

What torques me off is the fervor with which so many folks are buying these modern commems for no other purpose than licking their chops about flipping for a profit....

OPA · August 30, 2007 7:04AM

<< Moderns are trash, and should come with a warning label.

Russ, NCNE >>

Russ, they said the same thing about 30 years ago when I started collecting Kennedy halves...& look at them now.

hubird · August 30, 2007 7:20AM

The ten 1964 proof sets I just bought the other day for the Kennedys aren't nearly as expensive as the 2 Jefferson Liberty coins I bought this morning, which are a lot less than the Draped Bust half I'm about to buy. Which group of snobs should I chime in with?

IrishMike · August 30, 2007 7:22AM

Yeesh I thought at least someone would accuse me snobery for pointing out their is no such word, but no luck.

Anyhoo I've been preaching here for years that collect what you like with the emphasize on the word collect. Trying to get around the mint rules, bragging about it and then reveling on this board how you made a whiz bang profit is bad form. I too collect moderns but some of you need to grow a thick skin and some of you need to become less hypocritical. If you last long enough here someone will criticize you and most times its the nature of the internet to take it personally as their is no inflection in their meaning as there would be in person. People will express their opinion about modern coinage one way or the other and quite honestly its good thing we don't all agree on what to collect.

Let me just add its not whether you collect this year or that but how much enjoyment the hobby brings and letting others affect your mood when it comes to this hobby is counterproductive.

OPA · August 30, 2007 7:23AM

<< The ten 1964 proof sets I just bought the other day for the Kennedys aren't nearly as expensive as the 2 Jefferson Liberty coins I bought this morning, which are a lot less than the Draped Bust half I'm about to buy. Which group of snobs should I chime in with?

>>

The ones who pick up the tab

BlindedByEgo · August 30, 2007 7:24AM

<< Do I sense a bit of snobery?

Well, by golly, then call me a snobe...whatever that is... >>

Thanks for that - I was trying to figure out a gentle but humorous way to point out the spelling error. I'm a snobe, too, I guess.

IGWT · August 30, 2007 7:30AM

IrishMike is right once again. Maybe a Flippers Forum™ is the answer.

cladking · August 30, 2007 7:33AM

<< Today's junk will always be junk. There is too much being produced, nearly all of which will survive in very high grade. It ISN'T like it was in the pre-1934 period. Collecting has changed. >>

19th century junk will always be 19th century junk, too.

There are unprecedented amounts of junk today but this was true in almost every century
as mintages soar. The real difference between now and in ALL past centuries is that many
(if not most) of the new coins have been belittled and ignored. They have been allowed to
degrade, disappear, and be destroyed without so much as a glance from most numismatists.

Some of the old time collectors are just unhappy that they've been wrong for such a long time.

There will be a heavy price to pay in the future when it is discovered that so many of the coins
from this era are not available. There won't even be enough of a lot of this stuff for the mu-
seums, much less collectors.

BillJones · August 30, 2007 7:43AM

It all depends upon what you are paying for the modern material.

Collectors make it collectable, but if you are paying stupid money for something that is only trendy or "in the right holder," without considering other aspects of the coin, you are headed for grief.

The dealers who promote and profit from this stuff jump down anyone's throat who makes that observation, but it's true. And yes, it's possible to pay too much for a "classic coin" too.

IrishMike · August 30, 2007 7:48AM

It's also ok to call some of the stuff less than sterling (just being PC). I started in the early 50's collecting by pulling lincolns out of circulation. If they looked like they do now, I never would have collected them. To me its about what coin appeals to me not necessarily what year it was minted.

jmski52 · August 30, 2007 8:02AM

I was in a certain coin shop today, and was told that Plats are just bullion and that I was smarter to buy raw Plats than to pay a premium for slabbed ones. (no comment)

With all the slabbed Plats I see them selling on ebay (and quite regularly), I was surprised when he only showed me a single 1 ozer (year 2000), a Canadian Plat, and some other dark side Plat. (grrrrrrr)

Lastly, their pricing was aggressive, particularly in view of their markups for certified Plats (MS-69 @ 10% premium), and (MS-70 @ 50% premium).

I was told that there is really no difference between an MS-69 and an MS-70, but they are willing to make another 40% for a coin which has an imaginary qualitative difference - on top of their normal spread between the buy-sell.

Does anyone have a good, reliable dealer in Plats?

cladking · August 30, 2007 8:10AM

<< It all depends upon what you are paying for the modern material.

Collectors make it collectable, but if you are paying stupid money for something that is only trendy or "in the right holder," without considering other aspects of the coin, you are headed for grief.

The dealers who promote and profit from this stuff jump down anyone's throat who makes that observation, but it's true. And yes, it's possible to pay too much for a "classic coin" too. >>

I agree strongly, but...

I think it also matters what the material you're buying is. If you understand it and are collecting
rather than investing then you should be OK. If you're having fun then you can't be going too wrong.

If you're in it to make money or because it's all the rage then you should know that this has always
been the fastest way to lose money in the coin hobby.

bidask · August 30, 2007 10:18AM

<< Moderns are trash, and should come with a warning label.

Russ, NCNE >>

I agree with you.

planetsteve · August 30, 2007 10:28AM

<< What torques me off is the fervor with which so many folks are buying these modern commems for no other purpose than licking their chops about flipping for a profit.... >>

Yup. You can call them "hags" all you want, but you better not call them "modern junk."

I don't believe that everything was considered "modern junk" at the time of issue. The background and culture of collecting has changed. When have we ever seen modern commems issued at only twice face value? Or seen them used in circulation? Or, for that matter, seen bullion coins made with a face value equal to their intrinsic value? Does anyone really believe that today's coins are as artistic, beautiful, and well executed as those from the first half of the last century?

coinkat · August 30, 2007 10:40AM

Moderns don't mean the same thing to all collectors...

shmort6552 · August 30, 2007 10:43AM

I collect mostly moderns but I LOVE the classics, I just can't afford most of them!!!

Bruce

ziggy29 · August 30, 2007 10:46AM

We get a round of these threads every time a new speculative Mint issue is released.

Flipping Mint issues for profit IS NOT EQUAL to Modern collecting.

I really wish some people would get the chip off their shoulder and stop assuming criticism of the way the whole Mint-inspired flipping fiasco smells like rotten fish is equivalent to bashing Modern collecting.

For what it's worth, my four-coin 2007 silver proof Britannia set arrived today.

JustBustDimes · August 30, 2007 10:46AM

<< The charges have been filed. Will we have a Snobe's Monkey Trial? >>

Trial, lynch the snobby classic collectors. There aren't many of them.

RYK · August 30, 2007 10:49AM

Flipping Mint issues for profit IS NOT EQUAL to Modern collecting.

I really wish some people would get the chip off their shoulder and stop assuming criticism of the way the whole Mint-inspired flipping fiasco smells like rotten fish is equivalent to bashing Modern collecting.

Well said. Maybe there is a forum at Flippers Universe where the speculators can get together and whip each other into a frothy frenzy over the flip du jour (coins, baseball cards, beanie babies, Harry Potter lunch boxes, or whatever).

Coxe · August 30, 2007 11:17AM

Gee, we have to revisit this every couple weeks or so I guess.

Can today's moderns be tomorrow's classic rarities? In theory, yes. However, it is highly unlikely there will be any date rarities among the clad era coins (actually any post 1930) similar to absolute date rarities of the eras before that. Mintages and survival rates exclude the possibility unless massive melting campaigns occur. There will be plenty of interesting condition rarities to be certain.

Off of coin to NCLT. I won't labor the argument as to whether they qualify as real coins or not, but they are clearly different and should be discussed differently. Survival rates here are essentially 100% and nearly all in extremely high grades. The point that grade 70 is the pinnacle of plastic colelcting is one I agree with 100%. Disagreement will generally be from those who bought 70 plastic. Sour grapes? None whatsoever. I wouldn't want those hot potatoes on my plate. (I do actually have a modern proof set in PCGS 70DCAM; but would never have paid the going rate for it.)

I do consider classic proofs to be of the same nature as this modern NCLT but not as market abusive. Morgans, Peace dollars, and double eagles weren't far from NCLT but do have absolute date and condition rarities due to a variety of factors that are not even close to shared by NCLT.

All that said, I wouldn't bash anyone's pursuit of that arguably beautiful Mint product. My only bashing would be the promotion of that stuff as can't lose best investments. They might do ok but require growing collector interest to support the supply. And still, they just aren't the same as commerce strikes of yesteryears.

cladking · August 30, 2007 11:34AM

<< 

And still, they just aren't the same as commerce strikes of yesteryears. >>

They are the same. They are exactly the same. There is nothing new under the sun and
coins are coins. Just because few people find them interesting or attractive to collect doesn't
mean that there is a fundamental difference. Even the buying value of the moderns wasn't much
affected until more recent years.

I've said it many times but the biggest difference between old coins and newer ones is that all
the old coins were saved while few of the new ones were.

<< Gee, we have to revisit this every couple weeks or so I guess.

Can today's moderns be tomorrow's classic rarities? In theory, yes. However, it is highly unlikely there will be any date rarities among the clad era coins (actually any post 1930) similar to absolute date rarities of the eras before that. Mintages and survival rates exclude the possibility unless massive melting campaigns occur. There will be plenty of interesting condition rarities to be certain.

Off of coin to NCLT. I won't labor the argument as to whether they qualify as real coins or not, but they are clearly different and should be discussed differently. Survival rates here are essentially 100% and nearly all in extremely high grades. The point that grade 70 is the pinnacle of plastic colelcting is one I agree with 100%. Disagreement will generally be from those who bought 70 plastic. Sour grapes? None whatsoever. I wouldn't want those hot potatoes on my plate. (I do actually have a modern proof set in PCGS 70DCAM; but would never have paid the going rate for it.)

I do consider classic proofs to be of the same nature as this modern NCLT but not as market abusive. Morgans, Peace dollars, and double eagles weren't far from NCLT but do have absolute date and condition rarities due to a variety of factors that are not even close to shared by NCLT. >>

There are no regular issue scarce or rare moderns. If this is what you need to enjoy coll-
ecting, then by all means you must look elsewhere.

Lots of people enjoy the various modern and ultra-modern coins. I'm not going to fault
anyone for collecting what they enjoy either. If they're looking to get rich in any collectible
then they should be aware that this almost never happens by following crowds. You have
to get there at least a little bit in front of them. I'm sure there are still lots of coins that
are classic, modern, and ultra-modern where it's still possible to beat the crowds. But even
this doesn't assure you'll make money.

Stick to collecting for the fun of it and you can't lose. ...and you have a better chance of win-
ning.

Russ · August 30, 2007 11:39AM

<< << Moderns are trash, and should come with a warning label.

Russ, NCNE >>

I agree with you. >>

Russ, NCNE

Doogy · August 30, 2007 11:50AM

<< I don't bash moderns, but I do bash PCGS MS70 coins. It is the pinnacle of buying plastic and not the coin. >>

YUP! i also like to bash those that come on the board and whine like a baby about people being "snobs".

bidask · August 30, 2007 11:54AM

<< 

<< << Moderns are trash, and should come with a warning label.

Russ, NCNE >>

I agree with you. >>

Russ, NCNE >>

IrishMike · August 30, 2007 11:57AM

Coxe you nailed it.

jmski52 · August 30, 2007 12:02PM

YUP! i also like to bash those that come on the board and whine like a baby about people being "snobs".

snob n. 3 a person who despises others whose (usu. specified) tastes or attainments are considered inferior (an intellectual snob; a wine snob.)

Doogy, ol' buddy............If the shoe fits, wear it. You make more than your share of disparaging remarks about people who collect, yes actually collect American Eagles.

RYK, I have to laugh. While you were busy plugging the computer to get your order for this new Modern Classic in, I was busy over on the 11000 block of Olive learning that MS-69 is no different than MS-70, even though they are happy to upcharge me by 40% for an MS-70. In the process of wasting my time over there, I missed ordering a Jeff.

Coxe · August 30, 2007 12:02PM

<< 

<< 

And still, they just aren't the same as commerce strikes of yesteryears. >>

They are the same. They are exactly the same. There is nothing new under the sun and
coins are coins. Just because few people find them interesting or attractive to collect doesn't
mean that there is a fundamental difference. Even the buying value of the moderns wasn't much
affected until more recent years.

I've said it many times but the biggest difference between old coins and newer ones is that all
the old coins were saved while few of the new ones were. >>

There are no regular issue scarce or rare moderns. If this is what you need to enjoy coll-
ecting, then by all means you must look elsewhere.

Lots of people enjoy the various modern and ultra-modern coins. I'm not going to fault
anyone for collecting what they enjoy either. If they're looking to get rich in any collectible
then they should be aware that this almost never happens by following crowds. You have
to get there at least a little bit in front of them. I'm sure there are still lots of coins that
are classic, modern, and ultra-modern where it's still possible to beat the crowds. But even
this doesn't assure you'll make money.

Stick to collecting for the fun of it and you can't lose. ...and you have a better chance of win-
ning. >>

Coins are coins and I do completely agree with you when it comes to real, commerce-strike coins. I especially agree on the get rich in collectibles....though I'd say you either have to beat the crowd or wait until the irrational exhuberance dies down. Any colelctible worth it as a long term investment (hate to use the "I" word) can be bought later when it settles. Otherwise, it is like trying to play an IPO right after the horse is out of the gate.

One nice thing modern coins have going for them is that one can easily complete a series album. If there are condition rarities, and probably every series of any length has them, they can be the upgrades that you get rarely. That's not something you can do as easily with Barber quarters or Morgan dollars.

Doogy · August 30, 2007 12:21PM

<< YUP! i also like to bash those that come on the board and whine like a baby about people being "snobs".

snob n. 3 a person who despises others whose (usu. specified) tastes or attainments are considered inferior (an intellectual snob; a wine snob.)

Doogy, ol' buddy............If the shoe fits, wear it. You make more than your share of disparaging remarks about people who collect, yes actually collect American Eagles.

RYK, I have to laugh. While you were busy plugging the computer to get your order for this new Modern Classic in, I was busy over on the 11000 block of Olive learning that MS-69 is no different than MS-70, even though they are happy to upcharge me by 40% for an MS-70. In the process of wasting my time over there, I missed ordering a Jeff. >>

if you define me as a "snob" because i think that people are fools for falling for the whole MS70 nonsense, than so be it. The American Eagle series is a hit, in both design and quality. However, one must remember that they are bullion coins that were minted by the US government as a bullion investment vehicle. If people want to go wild by grading bullion, than so be it; but i'll never be in the camp to say that these "perfect" 70 coins are worth the premium to justify a long-term investment. The folks that say the latter are ultra-high grade modern "dealers", flippers and scam artists catering to newbies.

If you collect American Eagles, terrific! If you have rolls of American Eagles as a precious metal investment, that is great too. You are truly smart in doing so, as the outlook of silver looks quite good. If you're buying "perfect" ASEs for the plastic tombs they are shouded in, I'll venture to guess you'd be better off to sell them and buy more ASEs in bulk with the proceeds. I don't think this line of thinking makes me a snob, but you opinion may differ.

jmski52 · August 30, 2007 12:23PM

Morgans, Peace dollars, and double eagles weren't far from NCLT but do have absolute date and condition rarities due to a variety of factors that are not even close to shared by NCLT.

Coxe, I agree with most of your statement, except that some Modern Eagles do have date and condition scarcities (I won't go so far as to say rarities, yet), and in addition - note that time has a strange way of changing the equation.

My 1959 copy of the Star Rare Coin Encyclopedia doesn't even list any Barber Series coins, Walkers, Franklins, Mercs, or Silver Dollars after 1921. None of them were deemed to be worth a buyer's attention. And being a VAM guy, you no doubt realize that VAMs weren't even on the radar screen either at that time.

Plastic is plastic, but the coins inside the plastic don't stay static. Things happen. Time passes.

Do I sense a bit of snobbery?

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